Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Telco Immunity Case

EFF, ACLU Challenge Dies Four Years Later

by Karl Bode Tuesday 09-Oct-2012 tags: legal · business · privacy

You'll recall that a few years ago it was leaked that the government and phone companies were working hand in hand on a warrantless domestic surveillance system that had little to no oversight, with AT&T employees revealing (pdf) all phone and data being dumped wholesale in the government's lap. When civil liberty groups became justifiably outraged that the phone companies and the government were breaking the law -- the government simply had the law changed, granting retroactive immunity to phone companies.

A group of 33 cases against companies like AT&T, Verizon and Sprint were consolidated and last January made their way before the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The Court ruled that the law giving the phone companies retroactive immunity was constitutional since it was done under claims of national security. In short, the ruling insisted that retroactively protecting companies against suits for breaking the law was ok -- because the government might need those companies' help ~~breaking the law~~ in the future.

Today the Supreme Court put the last challenge to telco immunity to bed, refusing to hear a case brought against carriers on behalf of their customers in 2008 by the ACLU and EFF. The government originally tried to have the case crushed by claiming a case could reveal state secrets. When a Judge destroyed that attempt, the government simply decided to have the law changed, granting immunity to carriers provided they had received letters from the President saying breaking the law was ok.

While this chapter of the fight for government and carrier accountability for breaking the law is dead, the Supreme Court is slated to hear another case next month that will determine whether it's illegal to sue NSA officials for sanctioning then-illegal wiretapping of United States civilians.

Forums >

Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Telco Immunity Case

view: topics flat text

n2jtx join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY	Huawei And Congress is complaining about Huawei! We do the same thing and then pass laws to make it legal. -- I support the right to keep and arm bears.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 14:45:44 · ·

LineNoise join:2006-06-25 Downers Grove, IL	Re: Huawei Huawei is doing it against the government. The government is doing it against it's citizens. So it's OK.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 14:50:45 · ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	Re: Huawei said by LineNoise: Huawei is doing it against the government. The government is doing it against it's citizens. So it's OK. In this, we have the complete truth. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:00:53 · ·

kamm join:2001-02-14 Brooklyn, NY	Re: Huawei Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:20:21 · ·

BigDaddyPin join:2012-09-05 Westminster, MD	We The People I mean....."We The Government" tell the people what is best for them. if it breaks the law we change the law.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 14:59:17 · ·

FBGuy Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL	Re: We The People supreme court is the law.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:15:06 · ·

kamm join:2001-02-14 Brooklyn, NY	Re: We The People Huh? Are you high? SC is definitely NOT the law, for sure.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:20:56 · ·

WHT join:2010-03-26 Rosston, TX kudos:5	SCOTUS is not the law, it only rules on Constitutionality of a law.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:25:03 · ·

Mike Premium,Mod join:2000-09-17 Pittsburgh, PA kudos:1	Re: We The People Now it's up to congress to change it. Seeing how they're jointly paid by both the government and the telecos, I doubt anything will happen.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 17:24:38 · ·

Rogue Wolf Really Ties The Room Together join:2003-08-12 Troy, NY	Re: We The People Oh, I'm sure something will happen. Unfortunately my Magic 8-Ball only comes up with "it'll just get worse". Best government (corporate lobbyist) money can buy.... -- I may have been born yesterday, but I've spent all afternoon downtown.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 17:37:51 · ·

bionicRod Funkier than a mohair disco ball. Premium join:2009-07-06 united state kudos:1	Let's talk about Big Bird some more... Because that's clearly the most important issue we have going on right now. When I was in elementary school I was taught that no one is above the law, not even the government. I'm ashamed that that is no longer true.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:00:57 · ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	Re: Let's talk about Big Bird some more... said by bionicRod: Because that's clearly the most important issue we have going on right now. When this first hit the fan, the Press bent over backward to keep from reporting it correctly - kept insisting is was all about Limited Cell Phone Taps. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:03:16 · ·

crazediamond Maybe you shouldn't be so proud? Premium join:2002-01-19 Atlanta, GA	Not that it improves matters, but I'm going to assume it wasn't particularly true then either and they just were better about not being caught.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:42:39 · ·

bionicRod Funkier than a mohair disco ball. Premium join:2009-07-06 united state kudos:1	Re: Let's talk about Big Bird some more... said by crazediamond: Not that it improves matters, but I'm going to assume it wasn't particularly true then either and they just were better about not being caught. I'm sure you have a point there.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:44:30 · ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2	November is coming How many of us here are going to vote for PotUS/Senators/Reps who help bring this surveillance abomination to life? -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:06:32 · ·

FBGuy Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL	Re: November is coming i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:15:57 · ·

slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH
kudos:1

Reviews:

·AT&T U-Verse

Re: November is coming

said by FBGuy:

i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything.

Hes implying one candidate will spy on us more than the other, however i fail to see that changing, with homeland security in one ear, the cia/fbi/nsa in the other, surveillance is a way of life. ( that we all have allowed to happen) Im sure the president is the one who legislated the installation of traffic cameras, and random cameras around my city.

permalink · 2012-10-09 15:24:29 · Print ·

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2

Reviews:

·Bright House

Re: November is coming

said by slckusr:

said by FBGuy:

i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything.

I have to add:
The Media+Press are perhaps the most responsible.
They've either remained silent or colluded with Gov to insure there's been no meaningful coverage.
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.

permalink · 2012-10-09 15:30:51 · Print ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: November is coming

I think people need to understand that most the media is no longer what it once was. It's all beholden to large corporate interests and the status quo, often reporting PR from their owners and masters and aligned with Government friends to keep their profit interests safe and sound.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2012-10-09 15:37:08 ·

kamm join:2001-02-14 Brooklyn, NY	Re: November is coming Well said.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:43:02 · ·

slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH
kudos:1

Reviews:

·AT&T U-Verse

said by Noah Vail:

said by slckusr:

said by FBGuy:

i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything.

I have to add:
The Media+Press are perhaps the most responsible.
They've either remained silent or colluded with Gov to insure there's been no meaningful coverage.

Of course the media has remained silent, we read stories almost everyday on this very website of some insider executive being promoted or hired to government positions, or appointed as advisors to government oversight committees etc..... We the people have become to worried about iPhone and Beiber to care about whats happening around us.

permalink · 2012-10-09 18:30:40 · Print ·

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

No you can thank the State of Ohio for that one and the City of Toledo for believing RedFlex. After all, they spend roughly $1mill per camera when you factor in maintenance, admin costs, etc all. And how much does one camera make? Good question, it will NEVER be known since Toledo does NOT disclose how much they make after they pay out.

And those random crime cameras were put in for safety since Bell is busy buying SUVs for his broke city.

But what is funny is the city now has to PAY for electric hook up on those cameras, Before they were making First Energy provide it for free.

permalink · 2012-10-09 18:46:24 · Print ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	said by FBGuy: i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything. Most of the politicians responsible for the original AT&T immunity bill are still in office. Will you vote for any of them? -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:24:42 · ·

FBGuy Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL	Re: November is coming I'd be curious to see who was responsible for the original AT&T immunity bill and the evidence to back up that claim.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:48:39 · ·

woody7 Premium join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA	Re: November is coming shoooooosh it is a secret......................... -- BlooMe
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:53:38 · ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	said by FBGuy: I'd be curious to see who was responsible for the original AT&T immunity bill and the evidence to back up that claim. I think that information might be on file. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:01:00 · ·

FBGuy Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL	Re: November is coming a google search != what I asked for.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 17:42:42 · ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	Re: November is coming said by FBGuy: a google search != what I asked for. You're funny. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 18:13:35 · ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Well, that means you can't vote for Republicans or Democrats, so you have to vote for independents.

Came into being under the Bush Administration, continued by the Obama administration, and supported by Romney.

The only people who have been against it are some Democrats.

There's no choice here ATM for anyone who would curtail this.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2012-10-09 15:33:32 ·

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2

Reviews:

·Bright House

Re: November is coming

said by KrK:

I've voted conservative/Republican most of my life.

However I'll vote for anyone who stands up for our privacy in a way that matters.

said by FISA 2008 Wiki :

Senators who voted to remove telecom immunity, but ended up voting for bill with telecom immunity intact: Baucus (D-MT), Casey (D-PA), Obama (D-IL), Whitehouse (D-RI)

--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.

permalink · 2012-10-09 15:43:07 · Print ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: November is coming

Here's the full list:

FOR:

Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Barrasso (R-WY), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Webb (D-VA), Yea
Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
Wicker (R-MS), Yea

Against:

Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Biden (D-DE), Nay
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Cardin (D-MD), Nay
Clinton (D-NY), Nay
Dodd (D-CT), Nay
Dorgan (D-ND), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Klobuchar (D-MN), Nay
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Menendez (D-NJ), Nay
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Nay
Sanders (I-VT), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Tester (D-MT), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

Not Voting:
Kennedy (D-MA), Not Voting
McCain (R-AZ), Not Voting
Sessions (R-AL), Not Voting

So in Summary:

ALL the Republicans and many of the Democrats, FOR.

A solid block of Democrats & an Independent (The Liberal Block, looks like) AGAINST.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2012-10-09 16:00:56 · Print ·

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2 Reviews: ·Bright House	Re: November is coming Both of mine from Florida voted for it. Nelson was on a very short list of FL-D I supported. As FL's Insurance Commissioner, he was sharp and very pro Floridian. As Senator, he made other choices. sigh It's another choiceless election year. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:13:39 · ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: November is coming

I have a very similar problem.

None of the parties represent my values, it's a mix. I'm always having to do the lesser of two evils, or which one sucks more.

I strongly identify with several "Conservative" ideals and several "Liberal" ones so I'm always pretty screwed when it comes to voting... LOL
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2012-10-09 16:19:39 ·

Skippy25 join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO	Re: November is coming said by KrK: None of the parties represent my values, it's a mix. That is true of just about everyone. However, you still have way to many lazy morons that will vote party line instead of doing their homework and voting for the ones that actually are more in line with their values.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 17:12:24 · ·

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: November is coming

Maybe it's because I live in Oklahoma, but around here, it's just not true. (The statement about it being a mix for most people.)

This is a sad joke, but it's very appropriate if you've ever been here.

How Oklahoma votes:

(R) behind name: All that is Good, anointed of God
(D) behind name: Everything wrong with the country, agents of Satan

/sigh

Ok maybe that's a bit of overkill, but the it's been going that way for years and continues to grow worse... Hell it can cost your job if you speak up to counter some of the pure BS that everyone always spreads back and forth. Great, eh?

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2012-10-09 17:15:25 · Print ·

Twaddle @sbcglobal.net	I remember as a young person, I voted straight party line Democrat. As I grew older and had more skin in the game my support of Democrat agenda items fell by the wayside and I started voting on issues. Every 4 years I have to make a painful decision on who to vote for as President. Sadly ,even voting by issue has not worked but at least I voted!
	permalink · 2012-10-10 10:13:58 · ·

FBGuy Premium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL Reviews: ·Comcast ·T-Mobile US	said by KrK: Well, that means you can't vote for Republicans or Democrats, so you have to vote for independents. because all Republicans and Democrats were for it, right?
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:49:18 · ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Re: November is coming Not quite, many were. The Liberal block of Democrats was fairly solid in opposition and continues to be the opposition to this. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:08:19 · ·

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2

Reviews:

·Bright House

Re: November is coming

said by KrK:

The Liberal block of Democrats was fairly solid in opposition and continues to be the opposition to this.

But most of them were still spinning it as a telco tapping issue instead of an internet data dump.

It absolutely killed me to have to admit which Senators were honest about the issue.
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.

permalink · 2012-10-09 16:22:08 · Print ·

fifty nine join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ kudos:2	said by Noah Vail: How many of us here are going to vote for PotUS/Senators/Reps who help bring this surveillance abomination to life? Why are you telling us not to vote?
	permalink · 2012-10-09 16:22:14 · ·

MaynardKrebs Premium join:2009-06-17 kudos:4	It's a sad day for America 1) The rule of law is dead. 2) The Supreme Court has brought the administration of justice into disrepute. 3) Shame on the Supreme Court.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:40:25 · ·

See 18 replies to this post

Noah Vail Son made my Avatar Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:2	Crappy old memory lane Here's the thread from the other end of this. -- Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 15:48:10 · ·

WireHead
I drive to fast
Premium
join:2001-05-09
Muncie, IN

Not ME!! YOU!!

I wonder if the politicians and government agencies are dumb enough to believe that the same information isn't being collected on them. They probably are. It is. Even if there is a law passed against it I do not see it stopping. Once everyone has a video/mic in their home for teleconferencing it will be fine for them to remove view that as well.
--
Retired BBR Team Starfire Team Q III Host
Live by chance. Love by choice. Kill by profession.

permalink · 2012-10-09 16:18:28 ·

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Re: Not ME!! YOU!!

said by WireHead:

Every politician that has ever run for a gov't office knows that they are monitored by gov't, the press, opposing political party, special interest groups, etc. It is not surprising most have no problem with this, being the reality of their own life being monitored by everyone.
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat···onalism/

permalink · 2012-10-09 18:00:26 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Re: Not ME!! YOU!! Yet amazingly they continue to transgress on certain desires and then are stunned when it comes out.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 18:42:52 · ·

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Reviews:

·Mediacom

·RoadRunner Cable

False narrative

The narrative that this is immunity from "breaking the law" is false. The immunity granted was for civil suits, not criminal prosecutions. The bill specifically did NOT grant any immunity for criminal actions, i.e. breaking the law. Try reading it and you'll see.

The reason this immunity was granted by Congress and signed by the President was exactly because the tactic of the ACLU and EFF is to hammer those companies they consider "lawbreakers" with civil suit after civil suit. Death by 1000 lawyers is their strategy, even though they have succeeded with precisely zero of those suits.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that filing civil suits, even though they must know at some level they will not succeed, is their strategy. They intend to intimidate and harass these companies into not cooperating with legal requests from the government, causing them to spend significant resources defending themselves.

Given that, it makes a lot of sense for Congress and the President to pass this immunity law. Government, in general, cannot run counterterrorism plans if they are open to lawsuits. And, since you can't sue the Government over this sort of thing, and since the companies they depend on to help them can, they have to put those companies under this umbrella too.

The other part of the EFF/ACLU's strategy is to spin hyperbolic positions on the Internet, and bluster their way forward, in hopes of putting public pressure on these companies among the gullible and the conspiracy-theory minded. There's really nothing that should be done about, it's free speech, and one can only hope that people are smart enough critical thinkers to see through all that.

permalink · 2012-10-09 19:11:02 · Print ·

See 13 replies to this post

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

The Constitution of the United States of Amerika

Clearly states that the government can make up or change the rules as they go along and can make any rules that they make up or change retroactive to any point in time. Unfortunately, you, the average citizen have no way of knowing this because although it is used to rule your lives, it has been classified a "secret" document, so YOU are not allowed to see it. It really wouldn't matter if you could see it, as it changes daily as needs arise anyway.

I miss America...
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.

permalink · 2012-10-09 20:13:07 · Print ·

MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX kudos:5	Re: The Constitution of the United States of Amerika Um, really? Where does it "clearly state" anything like that?
	permalink · 2012-10-10 19:02:10 · ·

iknow Premium join:2012-03-25	The only way to fix this Vote Independant, vote out the republicans and democrats!. why do people still vote for them? they need to be taught they are accountable to the voters!.
	permalink · 2012-10-09 20:27:14 · ·

Twaddle

@sbcglobal.net

Re: The only way to fix this

You really think that an independent has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected or is it just wishful thinking? I personally think that if an Independent candidate ever got close to being elected, they would have an unfortunate accident or their life history would be altered to discredit them. Those rich powerful guys aren't going to allow the rules of the game to change in favor of the unwashed masses. We saw how easily voting results were massaged in past elections!

permalink · 2012-10-10 10:30:42 ·

skeechan Ai Otsukaholic Premium join:2012-01-26 AA169\|170 kudos:2 Reviews: ·Cox HSI ·Clear Wireless	Big stink about nothing... No one was harmed and if civil suits were allowed to progress the only beneficiaries are the bloodsucking ambulance chasers. For everyone else, they'd just see a bloodsucking vampire lawyer cost recovery fee on their next bill. Yay, everyone wins!
	permalink · 2012-10-10 15:06:54 · ·

See 25 replies to this post

your comment..

Forums > Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Telco Immunity Case

Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Telco Immunity Case

Huawei

Re: Huawei

Re: Huawei

Re: Huawei

We The People

Re: We The People

Re: We The People

Re: We The People

Re: We The People

Let's talk about Big Bird some more...

Re: Let's talk about Big Bird some more...

Re: Let's talk about Big Bird some more...

November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

Re: November is coming

It's a sad day for America

Crappy old memory lane

Not ME!! YOU!!

Re: Not ME!! YOU!!

Re: Not ME!! YOU!!

False narrative

The Constitution of the United States of Amerika

Re: The Constitution of the United States of Amerika

The only way to fix this

Re: The only way to fix this

Big stink about nothing...