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Telcos Lobby Congress For Warrantless Surveillance Immunity
San Francisco courts are pushing to allow lawsuits
Remember how President Bush wanted immunity granted to all of the telcos who cooperated with the warrantless wiretap surveillance after 9/11? That issue still hasn’t been resolved but it’s come to dominate the attention of Congress again because there are fears that a U.S. Appellate Court in San Francisco is about to rule against the telcos and allow the lawsuits to proceed. A high-pressure lobbying campaign which is spearheaded by AT&T’s senior executive VP and Verizon’s general counsel is helping sway things in favor of the telcos and congressional staffers are saying that some version of the immunity proposal is likely to pass as a result. Kenneth Wainstein, the assistant attorney general for national security, calls this immunity “a matter of general fairness” and of course Verizon has said that their part in the surveillance was a first amendment right.
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Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium Member
join:2003-02-20
Salisbury, NC

Chiyo

Premium Member

lobbyists

This is so dumb, they broke the law they should take their punishment. I hate lobbyists.
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

2 edits

jc10098

Member

Re: lobbyists

Write your congressman and Senators to tell them your outrage. Let them know not to vote for this bill. If you don't, you are the only one to blame here when it passes. This government is for the people, by the people, and we can't idly sit by and let our rights be sold out. We have a first Amendment right, too!

BEFORE ANY ONE ELSE POSTS. GO HERE. I HAVE ALREADY DONE SO. NOW IT IS YOUR TURN! TELL YOUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO TURN DOWN THIS BILL AND SPEAK FOR US, NOT THE TELCOS!

»www.house.gov/writerep/

THEN, GO HERE AND PASTE THE SAME MESSAGE TO YOUR SENATORS!

»www.senate.gov/general/c ··· _cfm.cfm
lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

1 edit

lesopp

Member

Re: lobbyists

I already wrote my congresswoman and senators in opposition to your point of view.

I feel this is a red herring. Go here and read what the court said regarding the the ACLU's case against the NSA on this very subject.

»www.fas.org/sgp/jud/stat ··· 0607.pdf

To save a little time here's the judgement

JUDGMENT
On Appeal from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan at Detroit.

THIS CAUSE was heard on the record from the district court and was argued by counsel.

IN CONSIDERATION WHEREOF, it is ORDERED that the order of the district court is VACATED and the case is REMANDED with instructions to DISMISS the case for lack of jurisdiction.

ENTERED BY ORDER OF THE COURT
93254336 (banned)
Weapons Of Masturbation
join:2001-10-20

93254336 (banned)

Member

Obviously the Telcos did something not quite legal...

...otherwise they wouldn't now be clamoring for immunity.

- Dan

kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY

kamm

Member

Re: Obviously the Telcos did something not quite legal...

BINGO!

TransitMan
MVM
join:2000-09-05
Dayton, OH

TransitMan

MVM

First Admendment Right

I have the right of free speech. Guaranteed by the FIRST ADMENDMENT of the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES.

Verizon, AT&T and whomever else participated in this mockery of "MY" rights being violated need to be hauled before the courts for violation of said rights. Big business does not have the right to take away those rights, under no circumstances, unless one broke the law.

The government under "King" George has taken our freedoms and liberties and have tried to use them against us.

Enough, I say. Let the lawsuits proceed in the courts, where the real criminals must fess up.

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

1 recommendation

Cabal

Premium Member

Re: First Admendment Right

The article is about warrantless wiretaps, and you think this is a FIRST Amendment issue? I weep for our (clearly underfunded) schools.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Re: First Admendment Right

Umm, NO!
Verizon claimed it was a first amendment right, the people who are suing are correct in that it was a 4th amendment violation. You should read it..

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Verizon and the others ILLEGALLY provided data and communications to the government WITHOUT a WARRANT. What part of 'unreasonable searches' and 'but upon probable cause' don't you understand. I'll summarize it for you. The government has NO RIGHT to monitor you UNLESS they have SPECIFIC information that you are engaged in criminal activity. That's why we have the justice department, to put a muzzel on 'heil bush', who quoted the bill of rights as 'just a piece of paper'.

The problem is that these companies KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY violated ALL our rights. They should be sued into oblivion.
jimbo21503
join:2004-05-10
Euclid, OH

jimbo21503

Member

Re: First Admendment Right

said by karlmarx:

Umm, NO! Verizon claimed it was a first amendment right, the people who are suing are correct in that it was a 4th amendment violation. You should read it..
I agree, giving away customers' personal data is not protected by the First Amendment! It is not freedom of speech nor press. It does, however, violate their customers right to privacy (Fourth Amendment) which is something the bush administration and numerous major corporations have been doing lately! Now they just want immunity from the law? I'm rather appauled by this.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5 to TransitMan

Premium Member

to TransitMan
said by TransitMan:

I have the right of free speech. Guaranteed by the FIRST ADMENDMENT of the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES.
And how does wiretapping do anything to your free speech rights?
said by TransitMan:

Verizon, AT&T and whomever else participated in this mockery of "MY" rights being violated need to be hauled before the courts for violation of said rights.
You have no privacy rights to not be listened in to. You only have the right NOT to have that used against you in court. Businesses listen in all the time to phone calls. So what rights of yours was violated.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

1 edit

karlmarx

Member

Re: First Admendment Right

They have a right to LISTEN to you conversation? Where do you get THAT from? Any time I call support, they ALWAYS say 'this call may be monitored, blah blah'. If I make a phone call, I have the EXPECTATION of privacy. AND, in most areas, you cannot RECORD a phone call unless both parties are aware.

The telco's flaunted the bill of rights, and should pay the price. If the price is they go bankrupt, then so be it. BUSINESS is NOT ABOVE THE LAW. If they WANT to be a 'person' under law, then they are subject to the same laws we are.

TransitMan
MVM
join:2000-09-05
Dayton, OH

TransitMan to FFH5

MVM

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Businesses listen in all the time to phone calls. So what rights of yours was violated.
At least businesses forewarn you prior to talking to somebody that your call may be recorded or monitored. Then if you proceed with the call, then you have given them consent to do so.
If you do not give consent, you merely hang up.
justin147
join:2006-02-28
Centerville, UT

justin147 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by TransitMan:

I have the right of free speech. Guaranteed by the FIRST ADMENDMENT of the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES.
And how does wiretapping do anything to your free speech rights?
said by TransitMan:

Verizon, AT&T and whomever else participated in this mockery of "MY" rights being violated need to be hauled before the courts for violation of said rights.
You have no privacy rights to not be listened in to. You only have the right NOT to have that used against you in court. Businesses listen in all the time to phone calls. So what rights of yours was violated.
We all have the right to expect that our "phone conversations" with family, or best friend, or even business associate will not be listened to. How different would we speak with each other if we thought for a second that we were being listend to, Court or No Court?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: First Admendment Right

said by justin147:

We all have the right to expect that our "phone conversations" with family, or best friend, or even business associate will not be listened to. How different would we speak with each other if we thought for a second that we were being listend to, Court or No Court?
For the last 20years I have always assumed I was being listened to on the phone and now on the internet. Before I retired I was head of telecomm at a major corporation. And believe me, there has been no such a thing as private conversations(except on scrambled phones) for a very long time.

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

tschmidt

MVM

Re: First Admendment Right

said by FFH5:

Before I retired I was head of telecomm at a major corporation. And believe me, there has been no such a thing as private conversations(except on scrambled phones) for a very long time.
That is true but there is a world of difference between a craftsperson listening to a call (officially for maintenance purposes) and a Telco or ISP making customer information available to law enforcement without a warrant.

/Tom

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
It explains a LOT about your positions. It must be a very sad world you live in. A world filled with fear and loathing. A world where there are bad guys everywhere. A world where you EXPECT to be monitored. I thought we had gotten past that when we defeated the nazi's, but apparently you are still living in the 1940's, where the citizens are AFRAID of their government.
That's wrong on so many levels. It explains why you post what you do, because you see a 'terrist' behind every door, and you want the gestapho to protect you from the bad me.

I live in a world where I expect, no DEMAND privacy from spying eyes. I live in a world where I expect the government to FEAR ME. I have a gun. I carry a gun every day, and it gives you a feeling of power. It's not a 'good' feeling to take home when I get back, but where I am, it's necessary to survive. I DO NOT want to go back to a country where I fear the government. They trained me how to kill, and if I get back to that country, where I fear the government, I fully expect to use that training to overthrow our facist government, and replace it with the FUNDAMENTAL rights we were guaranteed by that 'worthless piece of paper' as our delusional commander in chief calls it.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: First Admendment Right

said by karlmarx:

I live in a world where I expect, no DEMAND privacy from spying eyes. I live in a world where I expect the government to FEAR ME. I have a gun. I carry a gun every day, and it gives you a feeling of power. It's not a 'good' feeling to take home when I get back, but where I am, it's necessary to survive. I DO NOT want to go back to a country where I fear the government. They trained me how to kill, and if I get back to that country, where I fear the government, I fully expect to use that training to overthrow our facist government, and replace it with the FUNDAMENTAL rights we were guaranteed by that 'worthless piece of paper' as our delusional commander in chief calls it.
Well, you have bigger problems than someone listening in on your phone. When you get back, the FBI may be doing more than listening in. Keep an eye out for the people following you around after your stated plans to overthrow the government are read. I am sure some FBI or NSA computer has already digested your statements.

kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY

kamm to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by justin147:

We all have the right to expect that our "phone conversations" with family, or best friend, or even business associate will not be listened to. How different would we speak with each other if we thought for a second that we were being listend to, Court or No Court?
For the last 20years I have always assumed I was being listened to on the phone and now on the internet. Before I retired I was head of telecomm at a major corporation.
Ohhh, yeah, we know that. Major head, major... major! In order! The nurse is coming! Take your pills and get off the computer...
kamm

kamm to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:
said by TransitMan:

I have the right of free speech. Guaranteed by the FIRST ADMENDMENT of the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES.
And how does wiretapping do anything to your free speech rights?
said by TransitMan:

Verizon, AT&T and whomever else participated in this mockery of "MY" rights being violated need to be hauled before the courts for violation of said rights.
You have no privacy rights to not be listened in to. You only have the right NOT to have that used against you in court. Businesses listen in all the time to phone calls. So what rights of yours was violated.
ROFLA, the utter idiocy of this argument is quite shocking - talk about underfunded schools and their 'products'...

ken11
@geusnet.net

1 recommendation

ken11

Anon

Re: First Admendment Right

ROFLA, the utter idiocy of this argument is quite shocking - talk about underfunded schools and their 'products'..

There is finally one person that gets it. There is no inherent right to privacy guaranteed by the constitution. I'm surprised it took half a page for someone to bring this point up.

norm
@verizon.net

1 recommendation

norm

Anon

Re: First Admendment Right

said by ken11 :

There is no inherent right to privacy guaranteed by the constitution.
Very true- although the government would generally have to violate a whole lot of other rights in order to violate your privacy. Taken as a whole, the bill of rights and all the follow-on laws pretty much ensure privacy, even if there's no explicit right.

The problem is with the telcos who, as I understand it, had no legal requirements to give up their customers phone records. I just haven't seen anyone who can point to an actual law they've broken...

ph03n1x
join:2003-02-15
Sanford, FL

1 edit

ph03n1x to TransitMan

Member

to TransitMan
Couldn't agree more that it's a violation of rights. It is the 4th though not the 1st that was trampled here.

DHRacer
Tech Monkey
join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA

DHRacer to TransitMan

Member

to TransitMan
Wait, what?

When did Bill of Rights apply to corporations? By the people, of the people, for the people. Don't see "company" or "corporate" in there anywhere. When companies became the new indivudual, this country went to hell because now the "rights" afforded come to protect the businesses and not the people who use them. People can't compete with the lobbying power of businesses.

Now everything these days is "for the good of business" and not "for the good of the people". Sad.
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

4 edits

jc10098

Member

Already covered.

Write your congressman and Senators to tell them your outrage. Let them know not to vote for this bill. If you don't, you are the only one to blame here when it passes. This government is for the people, by the people, and we can't idly sit by and let our rights be sold out. We have a first Amendment right, too!

BEFORE ANY ONE ELSE POSTS. GO HERE. I HAVE ALREADY DONE SO. NOW IT IS YOUR TURN! TELL YOUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO TURN DOWN THIS BILL AND SPEAK FOR US, NOT THE TELCOS!

»www.house.gov/writerep/

THEN, GO HERE AND PASTE THE SAME MESSAGE TO YOUR SENATORS!

»www.senate.gov/general/c ··· _cfm.cfm

swintec
Premium Member
join:2003-12-19
Alfred, ME

1 recommendation

swintec

Premium Member

Re: Already covered.

Since when are laws voted upon by our congressmen and senators based on what the people want? It is clear it is done for whichever side can shell out the most money or if favors are in need to the other congress-drones in office.

FiL25
Premium Member
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD

FiL25

Premium Member

Re: Already covered.

Took the type right out of my feengerz!
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

4 edits

jc10098 to swintec

Member

to swintec
Yes,

However, it's your civic duty to express your opinions to them. Whether or not they listen is a different story. Still, it is your right as an AMERICAN to speak up and have your voice heard. If the person that was elected fails to do his or her job, then you give em the "OLD BOOT" the next go around. After all, he or she is only there due to a DEMOCRATIC ELECTION. If he or she cannot handle it when it comes time to voting, then they must be removed. It's simple as that. We live in a democracy and we can kick out BAD politicians the following election year. SO MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD! DO NOT SIT ON CEREMONY ABOUT IF THEY WILL LISTEN. ENOUGH PEOPLE SPEAKING THEIR MIND WILL TELL THIS PERSON VOTE FOR US OR KISS YOUR JOB GOODBYE THE FOLLOWING YEAR OR 2.

scooterr50
join:2007-08-08

scooterr50

Member

Telcos Lobby Congress

no one is above the law. if you break the rules, then you should pay the price. 9-11 has gotten way to much out of hand. just a means to divert more money to some bullshit project that probally does not exist. i say nuke'm and be done with it, then watch how fast they try to surrender (if there is any left).
justin147
join:2006-02-28
Centerville, UT

justin147

Member

The Phone Co's Arent Stupid are They?

If they are going to engage in illegal action at the request of say "Pres. Bush" or his administration then perhaps they should get a defense similar to that in "A few Good Men" (Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson, Demi Moore, Kevin Bacon.) The only problem with defending them as though they were just "following orders" is that generally that defense only applies to people who don't have the advantage of millions of dollars of corporate lawyers advising them before the fact. They broke the law. Prosecute them. I'll be writing my Senator, and Congressman.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: The Phone Co's Arent Stupid are They?

said by justin147:

... then perhaps they should get a defense similar to that in "A few Good Men" ...
You're seriously suggesting that a fictional movie plot be used as a basis for a legal defense?
said by justin147:

Prosecute them. I'll be writing my Senator, and Congressman.
Since when is the Congress tasked with enforcing the law?
justin147
join:2006-02-28
Centerville, UT

1 edit

justin147

Member

Re: The Phone Co's Arent Stupid are They?

They need to be held accountable not given imunity. E mail your congressman or senator. These jerks (Tel. Co's.) Broke the law. Now lets make sure that congress doesn't pass a law letting them off the hook.
justin147

1 edit

justin147

Member

Re: The Phone Co's Arent Stupid are They?

I am suggesting that the defense in that movie is ridiculous. Especially for Companies who spend millions on attorney's. Read the whole post and you would see that my intent was anything but Serious.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

1 edit

Noah Vail

Premium Member

delete me

.dupost
Noah Vail

Noah Vail

Premium Member

.

.
Noah Vail

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Very Plain.

Congress is controlled by the __________ party.

Therefore, the __________ will prevail in this matter.

You can depend on it, can't you?

NV

royalpalm6
join:2000-12-01
usa

1 recommendation

royalpalm6

Member

Thumbs up.

I agree with Telco Immunity. Its about time they get support for helping the intelligence community!

•••

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

pnh102

Premium Member

Telcos Deserve Immunity

Hell, praise them for being an active partner in winning this war.

Telcos deserve immunity from legal action the same way good Samaritans who report suspicious activity also deserve immunity from legal action. For many people, and organizations in general, the mere threat of legal action is enough incentive to prevent them from doing the right thing.

Pursuing legal action against the telcos is just another attempt by the treasonous domestic Fifth Column to support our enemies and ensure our defeat.

•••••••••••••••••••••••

ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17

ftthz

Member

meh

... either way the govt will probably still get the info one way or another.

roc5955
Premium Member
join:2005-11-26
Rosendale, NY

roc5955

Premium Member

One Nation

Under surveillance.
With Liberty, and Justice for those who can pay for it.