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The Broadband Stimulus Gets, Uh, Less Patriotic?
NTIA realizes 'buy American' wasn't realistic goal...
When the first wave of broadband stimulus awards was being hashed out, there were a number of companies that convinced the government to focus broadband stimulus money on carriers who "bought American," despite the fact so many qualified companies (like Cisco) use foreign parts and do extensive global business. In a public statement, the NTIA seems to have backed away from that idea. "It would be difficult, if not impossible, for an applicant to have certain knowledge of the manufacturing origins of each component of a broadband network and the requirement to do so would be so overwhelmingly burdensome as to deter participation in the program," says the announcement. The changes still seem to require grant recipients to use American-made coax, fiber and cell towers.
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Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Global Economy

The sooner we realize that we are moving to a global economy and the money is no longer in manufacturing, the better off we'll be. This is why we need investment in math and science, we're never again going to be able to compete in the manufacturing sector like we did post-WWII. It's time to move on.

Bit00
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join:2009-02-19
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2 recommendations

Bit00

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

Tell that to China who is pushing "Buy China" in their own stimulus plans.

It seems that the US is the only one worried about participating in the "global" economy. Everyone else is looking out for their own best interests and if it fits the "global" equation so be it and if it doesn't, so be it.

We will never "compete" with the slave wages, zero environmental regulations, lower taxes and near-zero regulatory burden companies face overseas. The 'big sucking sound' is the reality of the global economy bitch slapping the US into 3rd world status.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by Bit00:

Tell that to China who is pushing "Buy China" in their own stimulus plans.

It seems that the US is the only one worried about participating in the "global" economy. Everyone else is looking out for their own best interests and if it fits the "global" equation so be it and if it doesn't, so be it.

We will never "compete" with the slave wages, zero environmental regulations, lower taxes and near-zero regulatory burden companies face overseas. The 'big sucking sound' is the reality of the global economy bitch slapping the US into 3rd world status.
Whenever there is a paradigm shift in the GDP of a country, there is a period of recession as the new model really gets rolling. China can do whatever they want and I don't blame them for pushing "Buy China." How many times have I been called unpatriotic for not buying an American made car because I wanted something reliable? The fact is, we do it too.

So, let China keep their low-wage manufacturing while we create high-paying science and technology jobs. They can continue to make products that are, as Apple puts it, "Designed in California, Made in China" That arrangement works out rather well for us.

BillRoland
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL

BillRoland

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by Matt3:

So, let China keep their low-wage manufacturing while we create high-paying science and technology jobs. They can continue to make products that are, as Apple puts it, "Designed in California, Made in China" That arrangement works out rather well for us.
Works out just fine, as long as they don't cut us off.

Self reliance is not only good policy, its just common sense.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Global Economy

So what happens when China embargoes us? Military police seizing all electronics in the USA to find components and transistors to build a tank or a radar system or avionics?

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by patcat88:

So what happens when China embargoes us? Military police seizing all electronics in the USA to find components and transistors to build a tank or a radar system or avionics?
Hopefully the tinfoil hat shipment will make it through first.

Seriously though, why would they do this? Their entire economy is tied to our GDP. If they embargoed us, their economy would tank and they know it. All one has to do is look at the global financial collapse to see that we can't go it alone and that policy is absurd. We're in a global economy now whether we like it or not so we should act like it.

Wearing blinders and ignoring a perceived problem won't make it go away, no matter how long we close our eyes and hold our breath.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

Perceived problem? you must be young. What do you think that GDP would look like as a service sector nation? There is a trade war on now, just because you don't recognize that doesn't mean it's not there

Bit00
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join:2009-02-19
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Bit00 to Matt3

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to Matt3
What high paying science and technology jobs? Thanks to H1b even work done in the US is done at substandard wages because what jobs aren't outsourced, we bring in immigrants to depress our wages.

You have NO economy without a large manufacturing base, period. It is manufacturing, not design, that drives an economy.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

1 edit

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by Bit00:

What high paying science and technology jobs? Thanks to H1b even work done in the US is done at substandard wages because what jobs aren't outsourced, we bring in immigrants to depress our wages.

You have NO economy without a large manufacturing base, period. It is manufacturing, not design, that drives an economy.
I respectfully disagree. The reason we have to many H1B Visa's is because our country is woefully behind in math. Before Obama was elected, there was an article in Discovery magazine I believe where the Top 100 CEO's and scientists were asked what they'd like to see. It was almost unanimous that we need to push math, science, and basic research in this country as other countries that we issue H1B Visa's too are well ahead of us in those areas.

All one has to do is look at my area which was heavily dependent on textile and furniture manufacturing to see that you don't need manufacturing to have an economy. We lost virtually all textile manufacturing within the past 10 years and yet managed to get the vast majority of those workers retrained and placed into good paying technology service jobs.

Bit00
Premium Member
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit

Bit00

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

Wrong. These tech companies are just interested in cheap labor. They could get Americans to do those jobs, they just don't want to pay them what they are worth.
dang1337
join:2009-06-22

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How much of our population qualifies for "high-paying science and technology jobs"? I'm going to guess its a lower than the amount of people that once could support their families and occasionally splurge for a new car or family vacation all on one income like our fathers and grandfathers.

What good is making products for cheaper overseas when you gut out the same market you're trying to sell your items to? The middle class with jobs rooted directly in the manufacturing centers of America elevated the country to Superpower status, only to see corporate greed with legislative support(or apathy at the very least) polarize our population into 2 disparate economic groups similar to pre WWII status.

FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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to Matt3
said by Matt3:

So, let China keep their low-wage manufacturing while we create high-paying science and technology jobs.
But we aren't doing that either. Much of those high-paying science and technology jobs are going to India.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios to Matt3

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to Matt3
except that you know the "high-paying science and technology jobs" will just become the "low-paying science and technology jobs"... In India.

FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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to Bit00
said by Bit00:

It seems that the US is the only one worried about participating in the "global" economy. Everyone else is looking out for their own best interests and if it fits the "global" equation so be it and if it doesn't, so be it.
And as long as the Chinese own our souls because they hold most of our debt, then US gov't leaders won't do a thing about it.
russotto
join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

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Well, you should be happy. The cap-and-trade bill should be the coup-de-grace to American manufacturing. Also electrical power generation. I'm not sure what good math and science will do, perhaps we can export engineers to countries which still can make things?

POB
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium Member
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA

POB

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by russotto:

I'm not sure what good math and science will do, perhaps we can export engineers to countries which still can make things?
Beautiful theory except that the U.S. is the only country on the planet that allows anything that washes up on its shores/sneaks over its borders to stay there and finance it indefinitely on the taxpayers dime. Any other country has stringent education and age criteria that be must met in order to emmigrate or you get tossed on your ass back to your country of origin. And rightfully so...the rest of the world has realized that a parasite is a parasite and won't subsidize. Except the U.S. We finance all parasites because the corporations want cheap labor.
Expand your moderator at work
caco
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join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

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to POB

Re: Global Economy

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

Re: Global Economy

USA allows the most people through it's doors (legally) every year than any other country. Add in illegals and... well

Bit00
Premium Member
join:2009-02-19
00000

Bit00 to caco

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to caco
While a nice "feel good" sonnet, Emma Lazarus didn't write our immigration law.
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

Correct but people come her for a reason. No matter how shitty we might think our country is the opportunity it provides it miles above the abyss of a country they are usually coming from. Should it be controlled of course but that is a problem with our congess not with the folks coming here.

Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
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join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH

Jigsaw to caco

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to caco
said by caco:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

LeftOfSanity
People Suck.
join:2005-11-06
Dover, DE

LeftOfSanity

Member

Re: Global Economy

Would you have liked it if your ancestors were shown that sign?
sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

sonicmerlin

Member

Re: Global Economy

Lol left, so true.

I was just gonna say, our letting in of illegals is based in part on the US culture of a free country that lets in nigh anyone to start a new life of opportunity...or something to that effect.

Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
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join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH

Jigsaw to LeftOfSanity

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to LeftOfSanity
said by LeftOfSanity:

Would you have liked it if your ancestors were shown that sign?
I'll bite

Considering were they came from yea....

cameronsfx
join:2009-01-08
Panama City, FL

cameronsfx to Jigsaw

Member

to Jigsaw
Starting to look a lot like America.

Ancestors from 1930s Nazi Germany. Sure they'd loved to see Hitler "closed."

Alfred Newman
@chase.com

Alfred Newman to Matt3

Anon

to Matt3
Hard to do that when that is exactly what is getting cut from state budgets, higher college tution fees, not to mention we don't make anything now a days. We import everything from kids toys to software engineers. What was the blazing road to the future is now a fading memory of the past.
cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

cornelius785 to Matt3

Member

to Matt3
I agree completely.

People NEED to realize that DESIGN and MANUFACTURE are 2 mostly independent tasks. The 'nothing is made in america' excuse is pretty lame as to why you can't design stuff. Take a look around, there are companies out that design products within one country and then mass produce it in other(s)

When it comes to a global economy and global competition, people have to options: adapt and compete or cry.

Bit00
Premium Member
join:2009-02-19
00000

Bit00

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

The third option is to no encourage policy that makes it easier to conduct business outside the US and encourage policy that makes it easier to manufacture in the US.

Instead of FLOGGING US manufacturers with endless taxes and job killing regulation, how about we ease those burdens so they can put more people to work.

A design only economy is not sustainable. There simply aren't enough design jobs. Ongoing manufacturing is what sustains an economy. Supply a man a fish and you have a fishing job for life. Teach the man to fish and you are unemployed as soon as you are done teaching.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Global Economy

said by Bit00:

A design only economy is not sustainable. There simply aren't enough design jobs. Ongoing manufacturing is what sustains an economy. Supply a man a fish and you have a fishing job for life. Teach the man to fish and you are unemployed as soon as you are done teaching.
A design only economy exists only when intellectual property laws are enforced.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

1 edit

S_engineer to Matt3

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to Matt3
said by Matt3:

The sooner we realize that we are moving to a global economy and the money is no longer in manufacturing, the better off we'll be.
You can't have a major economy without manufacturing...you can't even have a middlel class without manufacturing. Without manufacturing we become a service sector nation, with wages that compete on a global scale, or to be specific, Chinese wages. Those that push a global economy can only look at themselves when taxes go through the roof for subsidies for Americans to have homes, healthcare, and services. The Chinese have been subsidizing thier own manufacturing through manipulation of the yuan, lowering the value of the dollar in China. Asian Steel Companies have flooded the market with cheaper low grade steel killing the US steel manufacturers. And you want to apease these same countries by saying "we're moving on"?
The Chinese have actively been in a trade war with the US for over a decade......and typical of US policy, we won't act until it's too late.
cmaenginsb1
Premium Member
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

cmaenginsb1

Premium Member

Re: Global Economy

said by S_engineer:

said by Matt3:

The sooner we realize that we are moving to a global economy and the money is no longer in manufacturing, the better off we'll be.
You can't have a major economy without manufacturing...you can't even have a middlel class without manufacturing. Without manufacturing we become a service sector nation, with wages that compete on a global scale, or to be specific, Chinese wages. Those that push a global economy can only look at themselves when taxes go through the roof for subsidies for Americans to have homes, healthcare, and services. The Chinese have been subsidizing thier own manufacturing through manipulation of the yuan, lowering the value of the dollar in China. Asian Steel Companies have flooded the market with cheaper low grade steel killing the US steel manufacturers. And you want to apease these same countries by saying "we're moving on"?
The Chinese have actively been in a trade war with the US for over a decade......and typical of US policy, we won't act until it's too late.
Wouldn't our manufacturing wages have to compete on a global scale as well? This is the one part of the argument that I fail to understand.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 recommendation

Karl Bode to Matt3

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to Matt3
Let's keep this on topic please. The subject is American telecom manufacturing, not immigration. Let's not derail the thread. Thanks.

FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA

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to Matt3
Hope you're being sarcastic.

- A

C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
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join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

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Except that it is in the lack of manufacturing that we seem to be hemorrhaging money, if many of the business and financial classes that are taught even at the college level are to be believed.
cmaenginsb1
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join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA

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to Matt3
said by Matt3:

The sooner we realize that we are moving to a global economy and the money is no longer in manufacturing, the better off we'll be. This is why we need investment in math and science, we're never again going to be able to compete in the manufacturing sector like we did post-WWII. It's time to move on.
Tell that to Corning who makes all its fiber in the US and is the biggest suppliers of optical fiber in the world. There are still some sectors where we can compete in terms of manufacturing.

Bit00
Premium Member
join:2009-02-19
00000

Bit00

Premium Member

Duh...

And so long as there is no incentive to make products here, they will continue to be made overseas.

•••••

mrkevin
Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.
Premium Member
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME

mrkevin

Premium Member

really?

Could this really be done using ONLY American made products?

This just goes to show how F-ing stupid these people really are.
Even American flags are made in China...

»www.ntia.doc.gov/ Click on the "NTIA Jobs" link and be amazed at the amount of government waste.
Do we need all this?

PapaMidnight
join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

PapaMidnight

Member

Re: really?

said by mrkevin:

Could this really be done using ONLY American made products?

This just goes to show how F-ing stupid these people really are.
Even American flags are made in China...
... or Taiwan.
rdmiller
join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

rdmiller

Member

Jobs for Lawyers

And, because Buy American is a violation of so many international treaties, the only good reason to include it is to put some lawyers back to work.

Bit00
Premium Member
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit

Bit00

Premium Member

Which is why "stimulus" is horsecrap

There is nothing stimulating about these pork bills. It is paybacks to public employee unions and giveaways to foreign companies who make the products going into these projects. Joe Taxpayer ain't gettin' nothin' but the bill.

Meanwhile we have quadrupled out deficit spending and will double the national debt within a decade with the result being debt service costs that will bankrupt us.

We were told if we passed this insane pork spending, unemployment would be halted at below 9%. Now we are at 9.4% quickly heading toward 10%.

Our problems were caused by excessive debt and over-leveraging. Doing more of the same isn't going to fix it. ALL it will result in is INSANE debt and hyper inflation.

You want the rest of the nation is total fiscal collapse like Kauleefournya...keep spending asswipes.

BillRoland
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL

BillRoland

Premium Member

Re: Which is why "stimulus" is horsecrap

said by Bit00:

There is nothing stimulating about these pork bills. It is paybacks to public employee unions and giveaways to foreign companies who make the products going into these projects. Joe Taxpayer ain't gettin' nothin' but the bill.

Meanwhile we have quadrupled out deficit spending and will double the national debt within a decade with the result being debt service costs that will bankrupt us.

We were told if we passed this insane pork spending, unemployment would be halted at below 9%. Now we are at 9.4% quickly heading toward 10%.

Our problems were caused by excessive debt and over-leveraging. Doing more of the same isn't going to fix it. ALL it will result in is INSANE debt and hyper inflation.

You want the rest of the nation is total fiscal collapse like Kauleefournya...keep spending asswipes.
I agree completely with what you said, but I think its already too late. The crushing amount of debt this country is in is almost impossible to fathom.

FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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to Bit00
said by Bit00:

There is nothing stimulating about these pork bills. It is paybacks to public employee unions and giveaways to foreign companies who make the products going into these projects. Joe Taxpayer ain't gettin' nothin' but the bill.
The stimulus bill was designed to improve employment. It will do no such thing - except maybe in China. The US has sent most manufacturing overseas and the climate bill being rushed thru Congress will send what little is left there as well.
wxperson
join:2002-03-31
Marietta, GA

wxperson

Member

I am from the government.. and I am here to help.

I am from the government.. and I am here to help.

•••••
SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

SuperWISP

Member

NTIA and USDA approval process

If the NTIA and USDA were to enforce the requirement, the entire program would be backed up for many years. The current "Buy American" rules require approval of every product, and the manufacturer has to go through a bureaucratic process that can take months or years to get the stamp of approval.

What's more, as you can see from their Web site at »www.usda.gov/rus/telecom ··· omat.htm, hardly any equipment is on the "approved" list right now! In other words, the entire stimulus program would come to a screeching halt if the requirement were enforced, because almost no one would be able to put together a system out of just the currently approved parts.

It seems to me that engineers should be allowed to do their jobs and design the best networks possible without jumping through government hoops. If they can't, it will cost American jobs, no matter where the parts are made.

Wizeguy7
join:2008-08-23
Safety Harbor, FL

Wizeguy7

Member

Protectioism is a Dirty Word (Only in America)

Every Country practices protectionism and the U.S. just looks the other way. But when we say "buy American" the whole world gets up in arms. We don't want to "upset" our so called trading partners and we cave. This is why everything you pick up is made someplace else. At one time we could afford to be the nice guy and let it slide. Times have changed our people are out of work and one way to get us back to work is "BUY AMERICAN".....

GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium Member
join:2001-10-29
Indianapolis, IN

GlobalMind

Premium Member

Re: Protectioism is a Dirty Word (Only in America)

"Buy American" is a great buzzphrase but whether it's telecom gear or anything else it isn't always viable.

Not to mention, do we count "foreign" companies who have their goods made here? Howabout Toyota, Honda, Subaru...with plants in the US, employing US workers. Time was when GM was moving plants to Mexico, Toyota came in and reopened the old plant to make their product, putting people back to work.

And all along the GM hordes are screaming about all the money going overseas. Yea, tell that to the workers in that plant.

The real fact is that we don't have all of the high end semiconductor manufacturing plants in the US capable of making telecom gear for the whole nation. Certainly there are some out there but not of the fab size necessary.

Nevermind that these vendors are global entities, they build where it makes the most sense for their supply chain management, even if the product is designed in the US.

What about iPods? They say "Designed in California" on them, but where are they made? I don't see too many folks getting up in arms over those.

There are certain sectors where "buy American" works, if you want a nice aftermarket engine part, to to Edelbrock, they make them here. But don't expect every industry to be that way.

What we really need is balanced trade, instead of a deficit. We need to be exporting more or equal to what we import. To do that we need to beef up the mfg shortfalls I talk about here. It would be great for us to get back to that point, but the costs to do that in the US are much higher than elsewhere in the world, so it won't be as easy as "Buy American" rhetoric.