  Jerm
join:2000-04-10 Richland, WA
edit: February 1st, @01:58PM
| Captain - Per Byte billing Ahoy! Arr! Greedy corporations calling!
--------
Really though, back in the late 90's I had a friend who helped run a couple of the "local" ISPs around here. Back then DSL was "up to" 768kbps and the ISPs were still running frame relay T1s everywhere.
One local ISP had a SINGLE T1 incomming frame for all their DSL customers to share (read: 1.5mbps shared between all dsl customers). After a couple months they had about 50 customers on it (including me) and no one was the wiser. Even at peak times I still could pull speed tests in the 650kbps+ range. Eventually as they went over 80 customers things started to suffer (peak times slowed way down). At 100 customers, I watched my friend as he went into the Cisco config and proceeded to place a very simple "traffic shaping" algorithm on the core DSL router (as bandwidth filled up, it simply gave everyone an equal "fair share" slice of the pie). That pretty much allowed me to get decent pings and not that bad of bandwidth (maybe slowed down to 384kbps at peak times).
So whats the moral of the story? An oversell ratio of 25:1 is plenty do-able in a residential situation. Like the example above, 50 768kbps DSL customers on ONE 1.5mbit frame worked JUST FINE and provided what seemed to be full speed all the time! Now as the ratio approached 50:1 things went downhill... until traffic shaping was applied. | |
|  |   BabyBear Keep wise ...with Night-Owl
join:2007-01-11
edit: February 1st, @01:58PM
| Re: Captain - Per Byte billing Ahoy! said by Jerm :Greedy corporations Redundant.
Haven't seen "speed" based Comcast commericals here in Chicago in quite a few months. Just bascially been big big push on the $33 triple play offer. | |
|  |  |   aaron8301 I can't get myself to go away.
join:2005-01-03 Clarkston, WA
·CableOne
| Re: Captain - Per Byte billing Ahoy! said by BabyBear :Haven't seen "speed" based Comcast commericals here in Chicago in quite a few months. Just bascially been big big push on the $33 triple play offer. They don't even show you the speed tiers on their website anymore, just "HSI." | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| The problem is the market has changed from the 90's when the primary use of that 768 kbps connection was to send e-mail and surf static porn images. The over subscription model doesn't work as well as it used to. It still works, just not as well. ISPs need to continue to plan their infrastructure growth based on over subscription to keep consumer costs minimal, but they need to adapt their formulas. | |
|  |  NOCMan Verizon Fios User Premium join:2004-09-30 Flower Mound, TX
| Actually it's not. You can oversell 25:1 all you want. If the 25 share a 15Mbit pipe and 1 starts downloading 24/7 on that 15mbit pipe you're hosed.
Consider that up to 10% of any given userbase is doing this plus normal users downloading video and stuff nowdays it's difficult to keep up.
Bittorrent changed everything. Servers would be rate limited based on it only has a certain amount of bandwidth.
In comes Bittorrent and services like Avaya. Now you can get full line speeds from your downloads and it's exactly what is causing the rise in bandwidth usage.
The problem is that media theives are now constantly downloading content. It''s not a case of downloading a movie here and there. They download so much that eventually they do it to be doing it.
In the end it's user behavior that is causing the problem. If everyone bought content and had normal habits nobody would be complaining like they are now. | |
|  |  |  grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03 New York, NY
| Re: Captain - Per Byte billing Ahoy! One day the cable companies may have to accurately reflect HSI prices since nobody will want their CATV. So instead of 5 HDTV boxes and a 50Mbit internet connection costing $150s per month, they'll just sell you a slightly more dedicated 150Mbit internet connection for $180 per month. As usual the A la carte pricing here is more expensive, but it isn't because of content providers, but because you can't multicast and save bandwidth in a purely IP based TV scenario when there are 1000 HBO clones and each person wants a different one. | |
|  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by NOCMan : If everyone bought content and had normal habits nobody would be complaining like they are now. What about a dual layer Bluray movie? what about 500 gig HD backups? | |
|  |  |  maxpower
join:2006-10-09 Providence, RI
| quote: The problem is that media theives are now constantly downloading content. It''s not a case of downloading a movie here and there. They download so much that eventually they do it to be doing it.
In the end it's user behavior that is causing the problem. If everyone bought content and had normal habits nobody would be complaining like they are now.
Huh? Who says you can't buy content online? Ever hear of Itunes?
"In the end it's people that pay for a connection and use it that is causing a problem" | |
|  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Oversimplification- [...] the author suggests that those users who are bogging down the system by using excessive bandwidth should be refused service. And for another, the claim is made that cable subscribers dont really care about speed; they care about service quality which is only partially composed of fast speeds. Providers should not advertise an all-you-can-eat-buffet and then get pissy when users take them up on the offer. How about floating past a tiered service and let the market sort it out. I'm betting THAT, particular marketing scheme will go down in flames. Secondly, subscribers DO, in fact, care about speed. Just ask the average user -described as anyone under 40- what he thinks about his speed. I'll give you my personal opinion - it ::SUCKS:: ass. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Oversimplification- said by SilverSurfer :Just ask the average user -described as anyone under 40- what he thinks about his speed. I'm under 40 and I'm more than happy with my 10/1 connection. I also have several friends and relatives under 40 who are more than happy with their 1.5/256 and 6/512 connections. I think your understanding of average isn't necessarily an accurate one. | |
|  |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: Oversimplification- said by openbox9 : I think your understanding of average isn't necessarily an accurate one. Average as in someone who uses the net for more than the occasional browsing and email. Someone who is online in excess of 20 hrs/wk. In short, someone who goes home AFTER WORK and voluntarily uses the Net because he WANTS to, not because he's bored at work and has nothing better to do. | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Oversimplification- That's me and I'm still perfectly content with my 10/1 connection. | |
|  |  |  |  |   Neyland85
join:2003-02-04 North Augusta, SC | Re: Oversimplification- And many many many people would kill for 10/1. Would you be perfectly content with 1.5/256? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Oversimplification- Doing I what I do, yes. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   Neyland85
join:2003-02-04 North Augusta, SC
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Oversimplification- Then why do you have 10/1?
Heck my folks in their 70s complain about the time it takes to send attachemts and they have a 6/384 connection. It's not the download....
All my wife does is surf, email, and send pictures to Wal-mart. I just love it everytime she wants to send 10 or 15 pictures... "Why does this take so long?" "Why don't they sell something that won't make me sit here forever".
Most folks I know would be happy with a 3/1,6/2,10/3 service level.
Then there's the whole video issue. Dish will push movies to me over the net for me to watch on my TV. Once they figure out the DRM elephant, the ability to push movies/shows over the net to TV type devices speed/bandwith is going to be a big issue.
So it depends where you want to be tommorrow. Where are the technologies of tommorow and what is possible with more bandwidth. Could you do a 'thin client' type appliance that a majority of your computing over the net?
When you look at moving VOIP,Data,HD Video onto the mainstream networks then no, 1.5/256 simply isn't going to cut it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| said by Neyland85 :Then why do you have 10/1? Because I currently get it at a lower cost than if I switched to a 1.5/256 tier. Once my cableco stops giving me "I can't pass it up" deals, I will be switching.said by Neyland85 :So it depends where you want to be tommorrow. Where are the technologies of tommorow and what is possible with more bandwidth. Could you do a 'thin client' type appliance that a majority of your computing over the net? When you look at moving VOIP,Data,HD Video onto the mainstream networks then no, 1.5/256 simply isn't going to cut it. Of course tomorrow's technologies will demand more, and when they're here I'm all for the bandwidth that will be necessary. And I have no doubt the ISPs will be willing to sell you that bandwidth. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Neyland85
join:2003-02-04 North Augusta, SC
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Oversimplification- said by openbox9 :said by Neyland85 :Then why do you have 10/1? Because I currently get it at a lower cost than if I switched to a 1.5/256 tier. Once my cableco stops giving me "I can't pass it up" deals, I will be switching. said by Neyland85 :So it depends where you want to be tommorrow. Where are the technologies of tommorow and what is possible with more bandwidth. Could you do a 'thin client' type appliance that a majority of your computing over the net? When you look at moving VOIP,Data,HD Video onto the mainstream networks then no, 1.5/256 simply isn't going to cut it. Of course tomorrow's technologies will demand more, and when they're here I'm all for the bandwidth that will be necessary. And I have no doubt the ISPs will be willing to sell you that bandwidth. Problem is, those technologies typically don't emerge until the ability to deliver them does and the ability as I was just noting, the devices in some cases are here now...
It's just like the CPU speed issue. As a software developer I can write some massively cpu intensive code, but why bother when only 1% of the public has the ability to run it? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  LiquidSean
join:2007-08-05 Purcellville, VA | I'm on a satellite connection that suxxx and I spend 40+ hours a week on it. Now I'm getting ComCast when its finally available in the spring. So stop complaining about hsi and think how it would be w/ HughesNet. | |
|   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs: | Best idea in story
Rather than capping and irking 100 percent of their customers, MSOs should simply refuse service to the hogs. Let them switch to FiOS and cripple a competitor's cashflow. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Best idea in story I still think bill-per-byte is the best alternative. It allows providers to maintain existing customers while controlling traffic growth and/or increasing revenue for infrastructure expansion. | |
|  |  |   djrobx
join:2000-05-31 Valencia, CA | Re: Best idea in story I agree, the problem is getting them to set reasonable rates. | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Best idea in story It's not really a problem. The ISPs will simply charge what the market will bear. And the markets that have healthy competition will obviously see better rates than those without. The problem will be the whiners in markets without healthy competition. | |
|  |  |  |  |  karlmarx
join:2006-09-18 Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Best idea in story But that's the problem. the COST for an ISP to provide 1GB of data is appx $.10 dollars (10 cents). If they want to charge by the byte, the $.15 (15 cents) per GB would be a fair price. Thus granny, who uses 1GB/month, will get a $.15 dollar bill. big P2P user, who uses 500 GB/month, will pay $75.00. But that's not how they will bill it. They will try and charge $3.00/GB, with a base $50.00 charge, so Granny will pay $53.00, and big P2P user would be charged $400.00/month. Guess what. Both Granny and P2P user would cancel, so their total revenue would be... .ZERO. Granny will be upset because her bill 'could' be bigger than she expects. And P2P user would be upset because she is being ripped off. -- The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Best idea in story Your forgetting most large ISPs own their own backbones, and don't buy transit from one Tier 1, they peer with multiple Tier 1s which is much cheaper, then dump everything else onto a catch all. Verizon owns UUNET, free bandwidth/peering with everyone in the world. Time Warner corporate has ATDN which has free peering, Adelphia's network is diversely peered, and non-Adelphia Time Warner cable seems to be peered with the diverse Adelphia, and everything seems to be thrown onto Level 3, also consumer ISPs can neogtiate for much cheaper rates by being exclusive with 1 particular Tier 1, that way the "value" of the Tier 1 goes up, since content providers will have to peer with it/buy transit to/on it to reach their (content providers) customers, and their customers will be pissed if their flash intensive site streams in at 500 Kbps, or downloads are under a T1 and 200 ms pings. Also, a content sucker (consumer ISP) on a Tier 1 will make the Tier 1 be able to kill more free peering agreements with the lesser/smaller peers/backbones/isps by claiming the other peers are uploading much more than they download, and must pay to equalize the ratio/invalidate the free peering agreement and switch to paid peering.
Plus, if you eliminate the uploaders on/to your backbone, you eliminate the downloaders, and that way your capitol upgrade costs go down, since nobody is using your lines. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| My turn to PDOOMA numbers.
The COST for an ISP to build and maintain infrastructure to a large quantity of users works out to about $900 per user, which the ISP is kind enough to amortize over two years. The additional COST for an ISP to provide 1 GB of data transfer is approximately $1.00 (1 dollar). When ISPs charge by the byte, the $1.00 (1 dollar) per GB is almost a fair price. There needs to be a "profit" on top of the cost, so let's assume a modest 20% markup. That now gives a cost of $1.20 (1 dollar and 20 cents) as the cost of 1 GB of data transfer. So, including the amortization, that works out to about $38.70 (38 dollars and 70 cents) for granny's use of 1 GB and $637.50 (637 dollars and 50 cents) for big P2P user. Now you may be thinking that this sounds great and that after 24 months customers' bills will drop to $1.20 (1 dollar and 20 cents) for granny and $60 (60 dollars) for big P2P user, but don't get too excited because ISPs must now pay for infrastructure upgrades to enable even greater use of resources for "BitTorrent Part Deux". The ISPs will once again spend $900 per user (kindly amortized over 24 months) to upgrade the plant, therefore maintaining consumers' bills at $38.70 (38 dollars and 70 cents) for granny and $637.50 (637 dollars and 50 cents) for big P2P user. Granny will be very happy that she doesn't have to subsidize big P2P user's gluttonous abuse of shared resources. Big P2P user is sad because he realizes that his actions have a real cost and he can't continue to milk his neighbors and his ISP. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  karlmarx
join:2006-09-18 Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Best idea in story Where in the HELL are you getting the $1.00 per GB number? If yuo start with that OUTRAGEOUS assumption, then of course the numbers are going to be totally screwed. The REAL COST is no more than 10 cents per GB. Lets assume a 20% markup on THAT. Lets run with the 900 dollars per user. Assume a 5 year amortization, so that's about $15.00 per month.
The REAL numbers are $16.20 for granny, and $75.00 for the 500 GB P2P user. -- The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Best idea in story said by karlmarx :Where in the HELL are you getting the $1.00 per GB number? If yuo start with that OUTRAGEOUS assumption, then of course the numbers are going to be totally screwed. You mean like your OUTRAGEOUS 10 cents number? A while back you tried to preach that after the ISPs initial investment (i.e. $900 in this scenario) the cost of providing bandwidth is zero, so I guess this is a step in the right direction. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   MattE Obama '08 Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation
| said by openbox9 :My turn to PDOOMA numbers. The COST for an ISP to build and maintain infrastructure to a large quantity of users works out to about $900 per user, which the ISP is kind enough to amortize over two years. The additional COST for an ISP to provide 1 GB of data transfer is approximately $1.00 (1 dollar). When ISPs charge by the byte, the $1.00 (1 dollar) per GB is almost a fair price. There needs to be a "profit" on top of the cost, so let's assume a modest 20% markup. That now gives a cost of $1.20 (1 dollar and 20 cents) as the cost of 1 GB of data transfer. So, including the amortization, that works out to about $38.70 (38 dollars and 70 cents) for granny's use of 1 GB and $637.50 (637 dollars and 50 cents) for big P2P user. Now you may be thinking that this sounds great and that after 24 months customers' bills will drop to $1.20 (1 dollar and 20 cents) for granny and $60 (60 dollars) for big P2P user, but don't get too excited because ISPs must now pay for infrastructure upgrades to enable even greater use of resources for "BitTorrent Part Deux". The ISPs will once again spend $900 per user (kindly amortized over 24 months) to upgrade the plant, therefore maintaining consumers' bills at $38.70 (38 dollars and 70 cents) for granny and $637.50 (637 dollars and 50 cents) for big P2P user. Granny will be very happy that she doesn't have to subsidize big P2P user's gluttonous abuse of shared resources. Big P2P user is sad because he realizes that his actions have a real cost and he can't continue to milk his neighbors and his ISP. »AT&T To Raise DSL Prices
It costs AT&T about $1/month per customer TO DELIVER the bandwidth to the end user. That's $12/year. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Best idea in story Wow, Dave Burstein can throw out numbers just like KarlMarx and I can. Do you seriously think it only costs AT&T $1 per customer per month to build infrastructure, maintain that infrastructure, provide service, provide technical support and customer service, and increase/expand infrastructure to provide additional service? Why don't we have ISPs popping up all over the place with that kind or markup? I've got a couple hundred bucks that I'm willing to start an ISP with. That should get me started with 200 customers. At $24.95 per month, I'll be raking in just shy of $4800/mth. Gotta love easy money  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Best idea in story So why does it matter if bandwidth cost $1 per month per customer or $0.10/GB, or $1.20/GB, or....? Deploying service to customers costs money. Increased usage by customers and enhancing services for those customers costs money. I'm not sure where your tangent is going. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   MattE Obama '08 Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation
| Re: Best idea in story said by openbox9 : I'm not sure where your tangent is going. I was about to ask you the same thing.
Your figures are grossly overinflated. That's all I'm trying to point out. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Best idea in story How do you know? Are you a CFO at a cable ISP? Do you own an ISP? My figures are as grossly inflated as karlmarx's were grossly deflated. | |
|  |  |   meterman
@comcast.net
| You are DEAD WRONG ON BILL PER BYTE. I watched the internet grow and those companies that DID bill per BYTE D I E D. PERIOD end of story. Ask prodigy versus aol which kicked their tail 20/20 then 2.95 thereafter versus prodigy I think it was 6.00 for like 9600 baud and 14.00 for 14.4 PLUS NON local number charges too if none available.. ISDN died because of bill per byte. I can give countless examples. | |
|  |  |  |  espaeth Misanthrope Premium join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN | Re: Best idea in story Billing by the byte is still very much alive and well today. Just consult any carrier or hosting facility. Broadband access is pretty much the only exception. | |
|  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| ISDN died because it was 2x as expensive or there were no consumer unlimited plans (only pay per minute), and most people didn't dual use it for telephone service like with POTS, and where would you even buy a ISDN desk phone, and would it be consumer or business priced? Nobody will buy a PBX priced handset. Also most states didn't mandate it be available everywhere, so it was available only 18,000 feet from the central office, and if you have loading coils, your screwed. Basically ISDN was only available where DSL would be in 2-4 years. POTS, 2 wires, bus or star wiring, like 120v electricity, if you can't dial (on rotary), reverse the pairs, end of installation. ISDN, NT1, NT2, R point, S point, T point, U point, and any more proprietary reach extenders/modulations. Geek speak from hell.
Regarding pay per byte, you fail miserably, ISDN is not an always on connection (although connection time is at most 5 seconds), its a circuit with minutes, there is no byte charges on it except if your dialup ISP decides thats their business model. | |
|  |  |  |  |  ricep5 Premium join:2000-08-07 Jacksonville, FL
·Comcast Formerly ..
·AT&T CallVantage
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Best idea in story ISDN can be used as a connection.
You can successfully hook up a dial up modem to the B channel analog port and get a full 56k (instead of the common 53k today)to the ISP. Use a modem with the 2 port analog bonding and for dial up rates you can have a 128k dial up link and not be charged the standard ISDN data rate per minute, just the local call charges.
Few ISP's support this anymore, but it was possible. Using this, you only paid the base ISDN charge, not the exorbitant per minute data charge. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY | Re: Best idea in story Nice trick. | |
|  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| said by openbox9 :I still think bill-per-byte is the best alternative. It allows providers to maintain existing customers while controlling traffic growth and/or increasing revenue for infrastructure expansion. The problem is that billing by the byte will severely hurt the internet in the U.S. to the point where people won't want to really use it.. so then why expand it in the first place?
Second, and in all honesty, they make a killing on the internet revenue and aren't hurting at-all when it comes to being able to expand the service.
If I recall correctly, the amount of money it costs, on average, per month for each HSI user on a cable system is circa $7.00 leaving the rest for profit. It sounds to me if there is a problem in upgrading the plant, it's not for lack of income. Are they using it on other areas of the company like for CVD build-outs? Overly priced marketing campaigns? Of so, then I don't feel for them.
In other words, like telephone, they are robbing Peter to pay Paul.. they are using HSI sales to subsidize their other services in order to compete. (Phone does this a lot. They lower the DSL prices to compete and raise revenue on their core product, voice, in order to buy customers from the competition. This happens all the time and the users of one service pay for the company to take subs from the other.)
I don't think they need to raise any more revenue to expand or upgrade capacity as they already have the means. Billing by the byte is a bad bad bad model to let them get into. | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Best idea in story There's nothing wrong with billing by the byte if it's done correctly. Bandwidth outside of residential ISP connections is typically billed in this manner and it hasn't seemed to stymie the Internet explosion at all. | |
|  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: Best idea in story said by openbox9 : Bandwidth outside of residential ISP connections is typically billed in this manner and it hasn't seemed to stymie the Internet explosion at all. ...that's because there is a profit center built in behind that. This is something missing in the home.
And yes, if they did do it correctly... however, let's be honest, when has any big business ever set anything that was reasonable? Time Warner Cable has already answered your question. | |
|  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Best idea in story It already happens. We've had plenty of news about caps and users losing access. | |
|  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by MattE :I bet their franchise agreements wouldn't allow them to do this. No govt entity including the FCC is allowed to regulate internet access thanks to the FCC. | |
|  |  |  |  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Best idea in story said by djrobx : quote: Rather than capping and irking 100 percent of their customers, MSOs should simply refuse service to the hogs. Let them switch to FiOS and cripple a competitor's cashflow.
Its a great quote. But it's problematic - Define "hog". Once you define "hog", you've capped 100% of your customers. It's the top 1% of users.
But once those people are gone, then you hit the next top 1% until you have nothing left.  | |
|  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Best idea in story said by moonpuppy :It's the top 1% of users. But once those people are gone, then you hit the next top 1% until you have nothing left. Great idea, each month that bandwidth usage for the market/neighborhood/DSLAM/RT/Fiber Node goes up, chop off the top 1%. That way, you will never have any capitol costs every again, your shareholders will be ecstatic. | |
|   jasonD
@comcast.net
| Well, they're gonna have to do something about Apple's, Netflix's, Xbox's (etc,etc) multi-gigabyte download movie rentals. No ISP, and especially cable providers whose business model is to provide video content, should have to put up with the transfer of massive HD video file sizes unchecked.
Something has to happen, whether it's slowing VOD content down, blocking it completely, caps, or working out some sort of revenue sharing agreement. I prefer the latter two. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: Well, they're gonna have to do something said by jasonD :
Something has to happen, whether it's slowing VOD content down, blocking it completely, caps, or working out some sort of revenue sharing agreement. I |
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