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The Horde Versus Your Bandwidth Cap
UK WOW users struggle to stay patched...

While World of Warcraft may not use much bandwidth (though a full day raiding w/ VoIP does add up), the patches for such games can often gobble up the gigabytes. That's becoming a problem if you're on a provider that caps monthly usage. Massively has a good read exploring the bandwidth use of MMORPGS (massively multiplayer online role playing games), while in the UK, where caps are common, one writer for the BBC laments the fact that his Warcraft playing son frequently sends him over his monthly allotment. In trying to understand WOW's bandwidth use, he discovers a WOW bandwidth study and speaks to his ISP:

quote:
When I spoke to Neil Armstrong from another internet service provider PlusNet, he confirmed that the World of Warcraft update had certainly been a major event: "It's a very big patch... we've seen a very significant increase in traffic." And he said online gaming in general did use up quite a bit of bandwidth - around 120Mb for a four-hour session. Not as much, though, as streaming video services like the iPlayer, which Plusnet's usage monitor tells me uses 250Mb an hour.
Another BBC article out this week also focuses on caps, stating that one million UK consumers have exceeded or brushed up against their broadband usage limit. A study also found that 56% of broadband providers who advertised services as "unlimited" employed caps and booted excessive users. We recently pointed to another survey showing that 83% of consumers do not know what a gigabyte is or have no idea how many gigabytes they use.

This is all food for thought as we head toward increased caps here in the United States. The 2GB patch referenced in the BBC piece was actually just over a gig, and patches of that size really aren't that common. Still, U.S. DSL operators like Frontier are considering 5GB caps for all tiers of service. It doesn't take long to hit that cap whether you're talking about OS patches, WOW content, HD films, or audio/video streaming.

If ISPs start implementing low caps and worse -- overage fees -- you'll have to think long and hard about just what your updates are worth. Watch one too many HD films and you may be left debating whether to secure your OS or update WOW. It's these kinds of questions that lead many to consider the very idea of caps (unless they're extremely high) an innovation killer and a very bad idea.
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R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

R4M0N

Member

I like caps

Baseball caps.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: I like caps

said by R4M0N:

Baseball caps.
That's really terrific.

Anyway,
After reading the headlines, I know there will be the obligatory posts demanding us to understand that high bandwidth consumption is just plain wrong.

Why it's wrong is not important, the reason will be found in time.

We need to know that THE PURPOSE OF THE INTERNET is to read text from a website, emails and (most importantly) be served a steady diet of advertising. Anything else constitutes abuse.

This is simply right thinking and to be upstanding Net Patriots, this must be our thinking.
If this isn't your thinking,
then you are the greedy tick
that is the direct cause
of everything that is wrong with The Net.

Right Thinking Net Patriots must attack and reveal the shame of your bandwidth stealing ways. Right Thinking Patriotic ISP's will take you down, so that you will be certain of your Net Unworthiness.

Shun the Bandwidth Hog. Shun Shun.

I think that summarizes the argument nicely.
Don't you?

NV

Voodoo288
Common Sense Dictates
Premium Member
join:2002-08-19
Richmond, VA

Voodoo288

Premium Member

Re: I like caps

WTH is a Right Thinking Patriotic ISP?

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: I like caps

Well, Comcast would be a Patriotic ISP for taking the initiative in throttling users who had the Unmitigated Gall to use bandwidth in the amounts advertised. Who could blame Comcast for trashing their traffic streams, and then hiding and lying about it?

They were simply doing the right thing, and as usual almost no one appreciated it.

NV

Voodoo288
Common Sense Dictates
Premium Member
join:2002-08-19
Richmond, VA

Voodoo288

Premium Member

Re: I like caps

Ah, gotcha.

ph03n1x
join:2003-02-15
Sanford, FL

ph03n1x to Noah Vail

Member

to Noah Vail
I'm seriously hoping that my interpretation of your comments as saracstic or satirical is correct, because if you're serious then you might need professional help.

AnonNutter
@kaballero.com

AnonNutter to Noah Vail

Anon

to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:

said by R4M0N:

Baseball caps.
That's really terrific.

Anyway,
After reading the headlines, I know there will be the obligatory posts demanding us to understand that high bandwidth consumption is just plain wrong.

Why it's wrong is not important, the reason will be found in time.

We need to know that THE PURPOSE OF THE INTERNET is to read text from a website, emails and (most importantly) be served a steady diet of advertising. Anything else constitutes abuse.

This is simply right thinking and to be upstanding Net Patriots, this must be our thinking.
If this isn't your thinking,
then you are the greedy tick
that is the direct cause
of everything that is wrong with The Net.

Right Thinking Net Patriots must attack and reveal the shame of your bandwidth stealing ways. Right Thinking Patriotic ISP's will take you down, so that you will be certain of your Net Unworthiness.

Shun the Bandwidth Hog. Shun Shun.

I think that summarizes the argument nicely.
Don't you?

NV
Frankly I can't wait until per byte billing becomes the norm. Bandwidth is kinda like electricity. Billing for bandwidth should reflect that, and will eventually because it is the most fair economic model.

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

1 edit

R4M0N

Member

Re: I like caps

said by AnonNutter :

Frankly I can't wait until per byte billing becomes the norm. Bandwidth is kinda like electricity. Billing for bandwidth should reflect that, and will eventually because it is the most fair economic model.
I can live with that as long as I end up being charged $40 per month for about 400gb of transfers. If my math is correct (it rarely is), then it would be about $0.0000000001 per byte.

AnonNutter
@verizon.net

AnonNutter

Anon

Re: I like caps

Lol...
said by R4M0N:

said by AnonNutter :

Frankly I can't wait until per byte billing becomes the norm. Bandwidth is kinda like electricity. Billing for bandwidth should reflect that, and will eventually because it is the most fair economic model.
I can live with that as long as I end up being charged $40 per month for about 400gb of transfers. If my math is correct (it rarely is), then it would be about $0.0000000001 per byte.
Lets do some math. We are an ISP. We pay $5800.00 per month for a fractional DSL plus the local loop charges. We have a 30Mbit pipe. That pipe can move 324 GBytes per day. It costs us $193.00 per day. How could we sell you 400 GBytes of data transfer for $40.00 when it costs us (193/324)*400=$238.00 to buy the bandwidth in the first place? It costs US sixty cents per GByte of data for bandwidth. Most of that is not even for bandwidth, it is to pay Verizon for the "local loop" charges.

Mind you we are a rural ISP and in Glen Allen bandwidth is MUCH cheaper than it is in White Stone, Virginia.

Mind you that price does not include any other business operating expense. Infrastructure, rent, electric, water, heat, AC, salaries, etc...

So you can see that you are very lucky to live where bandwidth is very inexpensive. Sadly, there are many reading this list that have no idea that it costs the little ISP one heck of a lot more to deliver bandwidth to the end user than it does the "Big City" ISP.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: I like caps

I guess that would be the little ISP's problem then. Just as it would be my problem with trying to build PC's or a car for the same price it would cost the "big" companies.

AnonNutter
@verizon.net

AnonNutter

Anon

Re: I like caps

said by Skippy25:

I guess that would be the little ISP's problem then. Just as it would be my problem with trying to build PC's or a car for the same price it would cost the "big" companies.
When the only provider is Verizon, will you be crying about a monopoly? Will I be saying I guess that is just the problem you have to deal with?

Maybe you need to try to actually Grok the problem?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: I like caps

Hell I complain about the monopoly/duopoly situation we have now so Yes I will be.

I personally feel that there should be one network nationwide that connects every business and person. That is built and maintained by either the government or a couple companies they have great oversight of. Then any company, such as yours, can reach any person any where to provide any service the company wants that a person is willing to pay for.

I think the cable companies and the phone companies need to become the dumbpipes they truly are trying to avoid being and if need be "we the people" need to take ownership of the networks that we helped them build directly and indirectly.

Mr Profit
@ntl.com

Mr Profit to AnonNutter

Anon

to AnonNutter

Re: I like caps, NOT

said by AnonNutter :

Lol...
said by R4M0N:

said by AnonNutter :

Frankly I can't wait until per byte billing becomes the norm. Bandwidth is kinda like electricity. Billing for bandwidth should reflect that, and will eventually because it is the most fair economic model.
I can live with that as long as I end up being charged $40 per month for about 400gb of transfers. If my math is correct (it rarely is), then it would be about $0.0000000001 per byte.
Lets do some math. We are an ISP. We pay $5800.00 per month for a fractional DSL plus the local loop charges. We have a 30Mbit pipe. That pipe can move 324 GBytes per day. It costs us $193.00 per day. How could we sell you 400 GBytes of data transfer for $40.00 when it costs us (193/324)*400=$238.00 to buy the bandwidth in the first place? It costs US sixty cents per GByte of data for bandwidth. Most of that is not even for bandwidth, it is to pay Verizon for the "local loop" charges.

Mind you we are a rural ISP and in Glen Allen bandwidth is MUCH cheaper than it is in White Stone, Virginia.

Mind you that price does not include any other business operating expense. Infrastructure, rent, electric, water, heat, AC, salaries, etc...

So you can see that you are very lucky to live where bandwidth is very inexpensive. Sadly, there are many reading this list that have no idea that it costs the little ISP one heck of a lot more to deliver bandwidth to the end user than it does the "Big City" ISP.
Mr Profit For Profits Sake, NOT with MY data you Dont Mate said:
thats a metter between your supplyer and you though isnt it!
if your prepared to pay that $5800.00 per month for a fractional DSL plus the local loop charges.

sure ,we understand your a business looking to make profit, but your not trying to tell us that what your paying is werth that amount of money, you need to find a better way to deliver your product or get regulation in place to stop price rises such as your paying.

those that say cant wait for "per byte billing becomes the norm. Bandwidth is kinda like electricity. Billing for bandwidth should reflect that, and will eventually because it is the most fair economic model."

these people are not thinking this long term £££/$$$$ stratagy through, theres a reason the services sectors dont rise the prices to high, people will not pay it and drop back on demand ,and given enough time will find other ways to make their own electricity to supplyment the grid soon enough, wind/PV and the like becoming very appealing as the vendors realise mass production and sales are the key to their long term profit margins.

simply put, if the worlds ISPs make you pay to much, as your paying to much to their *DSL supplyers for the pipes, your customers will eventually find other ways to get their Broadband connections cheaper, and its getting eayer by the week, WiMax ,community Meshed WiFi, and long reach Co-location over microwave point to (multi)point links.

what is the interweb after all , its just an interconnection of many ,many seperate LAN connection that the ISPs take advantage of and make it easyer to connect your customers for the last mile.

the worlds ISPs are more and more peering and shareing backhaul data for free with others at the worlds Co-location sites, theres no reason we the end users cant also do that and cut outthe middle men if they charge ripoff prices for free data that we the end users are creating on mass.

perhaps the ISPs should start paying us our cut for our content copyright their profiteering from.

what if every single poster and website owner in the world added to their posts/sites pages a (c) restriction that you cant use our content bits to end user CPE kit for profit!

your left with the cost of supplying the pipe and thats it if we restrict our data transfer use to only non profit use only and forbid per Bit/meg/gig/etc charges being levyed against our copyright data such as every single meggageboard post etc.

NOCMan
MadMacHatter
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

NOCMan to AnonNutter

Premium Member

to AnonNutter

Re: I like caps

That's fine, it's the economics of your company. Verizon on the other hand pays nothing to pennies per gigabyte they transfer depending on the intercarrier agreements. Their costs to provide to their customers is minimal.

The real problem is illegal p2p traffic. We saw the same issues caused by Napster and after it was shut down, things largely quieted down until new p2p apps showed up.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5

Premium Member

Why do these games need constant massive patches?

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.

Mephisto13
join:2008-05-16
Gatineau, QC

1 recommendation

Mephisto13

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

My guess?

For evolution of content, keep the people interested in the game. I would think a massive patch means massive content overhaul/changes.

They have to show something for the monthly subscription fees, no?

That, and probably that most companies don't clean up their code, since memory exists in abundance compared to 10 years ago...why make more efficient code?
Damon85
Premium Member
join:2004-12-25
Houston, TX

5 recommendations

Damon85 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
As long as we're devolving, why don't we start carving things we need to write down into stone tablets too?

I don't see any point in rolling backwards from our technological advancements to such a wasteful system as printing hundreds of thousands of disks, then wasting untold amounts of energy moving them around. Was that your point?

I don't think the question here really involves why the games need so many updates, that's really up to the environment they create and the developers that make them. I think the real question is more to do with the bandwidth restrictions on home internet connections, and the lack of options provided by service providers (which would include a pay-by-consumption model) which would allow people to use their connection as they see fit -- including to play games with constant updates.

kalphearion
In nomine Patri
Premium Member
join:2003-11-08
Broomfield, CO

1 recommendation

kalphearion

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by Damon85:

As long as we're devolving, why don't we start carving things we need to write down into stone tablets too?

I don't see any point in rolling backwards from our technological advancements to such a wasteful system as printing hundreds of thousands of disks, then wasting untold amounts of energy moving them around. Was that your point?

I don't think the question here really involves why the games need so many updates, that's really up to the environment they create and the developers that make them. I think the real question is more to do with the bandwidth restrictions on home internet connections, and the lack of options provided by service providers (which would include a pay-by-consumption model) which would allow people to use their connection as they see fit -- including to play games with constant updates.
What he said.

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium Member
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA

Hangmn

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by kalphearion:
said by Damon85:

As long as we're devolving, why don't we start carving things we need to write down into stone tablets too?

I don't see any point in rolling backwards from our technological advancements to such a wasteful system as printing hundreds of thousands of disks, then wasting untold amounts of energy moving them around. Was that your point?

I don't think the question here really involves why the games need so many updates, that's really up to the environment they create and the developers that make them. I think the real question is more to do with the bandwidth restrictions on home internet connections, and the lack of options provided by service providers (which would include a pay-by-consumption model) which would allow people to use their connection as they see fit -- including to play games with constant updates.
What he said.
I gotta Agree as well...

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

Soon we'll be back to online Pong. No patches, no bandwidth...and no fun
atigerman
join:2002-01-19
Tigerton, WI

atigerman

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by S_engineer:

Soon we'll be back to online Pong. No patches, no bandwidth...and no fun
Your not thinking far enough about the issue....

When we loose our phones and are given two tin cans and some string to talk to each other

koitsu
MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
Humax BGW320-500

koitsu to FFH5

MVM

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.
Mainly to add new quests, audio content, and all kinds of 3D model data + textures.

Every patch released is *not* gigabytes in size; usually the minor patches are 10-20MBytes at most. The major patches (e.g. going from WoW 2.3.0 to 2.4.0) are usually a few hundred megabytes. Keep in mind that WoW, with the current expansion, expands to something like 9GBytes once installed.

Distribution of patches using the Blizzard patcher is via Torrent. Read up on how Torrent works as a distribution protocol to see how/why that's a good idea (although I do admit Blizzard's client is absolutely horrible).
EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
A better question would be: why aren't these ISPs who are bandwidth-sensitive offering a torrent peer on their own network which hosts the patches? Users would be able to download those patches at much faster rate (locally), and it would save the ISP money (no more need for each customer to download the file off the Internet).

Large ISPs should really be working with Blizzard to provide ways to get the content to their own customers in a more reliable/quicker manner. You do have to wonder why ISPs, in all their financial glory, aren't doing this.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

And since Blizzard uses torrent, the bandwidth the users are using will have a large intra-network component.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

1 recommendation

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by dnoyeB:

And since Blizzard uses torrent, the bandwidth the users are using will have a large intra-network component.
Oooooh. You used the T-word. I'm telling!

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

1 recommendation

hopeflicker to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Yeah, Microsoft, too. Who needs them patches anyways?

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

1 recommendation

yock to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.
Because that's how much space it takes to store what developers create.
EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Aside from being a step backwards in technology, it's a distribution nightmare. Materials, logistics, enforcement, all have costs associated with them. Plus, if the content is provided as part of the original purchase (ie. not an optional upgrade) you suddenly have all sorts of people who can't get a disk and therefore can't upgrade their software. If you mean to cutoff out-of-date users then Blizzard is in breach of contract for their own EULA.

Broadband is designed to deliver these things. The onus should be on broadband providers to offer products commensurate with the needs of their subscribers. No doubt that means additional cost, but these UK ISPs do not provide a fair, contracted way to buy additional bandwidth. Instead they're forced to pay ridiculous overage fees that pad the ISP's bottom line.

There seems to be a business opportunity in this. Take advantage of consumers who need more bandwidth than most ISPs are willing to provide. If only the regulatory market weren't skewed to favor the oligarchy...

Ignite
Premium Member
join:2004-03-18
UK

1 recommendation

Ignite to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Indeed. While we're at it let's abandon email in favour of going back to all postal mail.

Have a think about what you said, does it really make any sense in any way. You are suggesting that people should abandon downloading of content patches in favour of CDs.

Why don't we just abandon the internet altogether. Write to a website owner and ask for his page on a disk.

That's a truly bizarre comment TK. From any point of view be it expedience, environment, convenience, take your pick, what you're suggesting is utterly utterly ridiculous.

MMORPGS necessarily are evolving worlds, they are played online, so is it so unreasonable to expect people to be able to download the latest content online?

Should we return to play by mail chess and forget MMORPGs?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
Why, like others have said, do you insist that we move backwards?

Ignite
Premium Member
join:2004-03-18
UK

Ignite to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
If the ISP has such an issue I am sure that Blizzard, for example, would be receptive to ISPs hosting these patches on local mirrors.

Then there's peering with Blizzard's Content Delivery Network.

Very rarely do WoW patches or any other patch go into the Gigabyte range.

I actually have no issue with a sensible monthly cap, however it must be just that, sensible. It's up to the ISP to find an appropriate business model.

In the case of the UK a lot of these issues are caused by ISPs who are too busy competing on price to worry about the service they are offering and hence their business models are precarious and rely on excessively low caps.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
We have readched a day and age where "small updates" equate to hundreds of megabytes. Unless you've personally written software or have some other experience or education that lends to you some expertise, I don't know that you have much standing for such an opinion.

joako
Premium Member
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null

joako to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
How are they transferring the cost? Instead of paying for discs they are paying for servers and bandwidth. Yes, I said it, they are getting a free connection to the internet.

tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
Numquam oblitus
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ

tmpchaos

Numquam oblitus

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

Oh, but things aren't right until you pay twice for the same product (the bandwidth). Don't you know that by now? It's just like mail- the sender has to buy an stamp, and the recipient has to oh, wait...
Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium Member
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO

1 recommendation

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to FFH5
I'd also point out that major, major updates to many larger MMORPGs generally are distributed on CD or DVD. You have to go down to the store and buy the expansion. If you choose not to buy the expansion, you don't get the new content.

•••••••••

Thunderlips
Get It Up Fly A Hull
join:2001-12-07

Thunderlips to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
Are you really this obtuse, or just a really long lasting troll?

•••
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

nasadude to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

.... This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
"..some companies transferring there(sic) business plan costs on to another company..."

you're absolutely right, but damn that sounds familiar...who else does this.....let me think....I KNOW, I KNOW - the RIAA!

isn't it just horrible how the RIAA transfers the cost of enforcing THEIR copyrights, as part of THEIR BUSINESS MODEL, onto colleges and ISPs and the U.S. govt?

I know you agree, TK, since you pointed it out first.
thevorpal1
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA

thevorpal1 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
What on earth is the point of the internet if you aren't supposed to send data across it?

What am I paying my ISP for if not for a connection to the internet? Should I just be sending them checks for $50 every month as my appreciation for them being such an amazing company?

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
Premium Member
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

1 edit

sivran to FFH5

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to FFH5
WoW never had a patch that was even a gig in the time I was playing. They had one or two that were in the mid hundreds of megabytes, but never reached a gig.

Unless you count the expansion as a patch, or count all of the patches together. I have about a year's worth of WoW patches archived just in case I ever go back to playing. That archive totals 1.1GB.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
oh you mean the ISP service that i pay for. also why are these EU and UK ISPs so cheap with caps when even Comcast here in the US is 250gb whats with a 20gb cap

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee. This is just another example of some companies transferring there business plan costs on to another company(the ISP).
The company uploading the patches to the players also incurs a LOT of costs. The reason why patches and game updates aren't supplied by snail-mail by default has nothing to do with cost, but with the fact that snail mail takes too long to get the patches to everyone, where broadband internet can deliver the patch to a players in Seoul, South Korea, London, England and Buenos Aires, Argentina within the hour.

Bandwidth is getting cheaper by the WEEK almost. You can now get a OC-45 connection installed at your company for $3000 a month, 5 years ago you would still pay $10.000 for the same. There is no reason to punish customers for wanting to use new services that are out there, especially if they already have to pay for that service.

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."
join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

old_dawg

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by maartena:
said by FFH5:

Bandwidth is getting cheaper by the WEEK almost. You can now get a OC-45 connection installed at your company for $3000 a month, 5 years ago you would still pay $10.000 for the same. There is no reason to punish customers for wanting to use new services that are out there, especially if they already have to pay for that service.
An OC-what???, I was going to ask you to double check your math (as I work in the bizness and have yet to encounter an OC45 in the past two decades), but then I saw your avatar and realized that asking you a reality based question would be futile.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

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said by FFH5:

How about downloads for minor patches, fixes, etc. But when they make available a whole new release that runs to multiple Gigabytes, that that is provided on disk as part of the subscription fee.
I think the entire model/concept of downloadable content (be they iTunes, movies, games, etc.) rather escapes you. We're moving forward with digital technology. Having to rely upon snail-mail disc copies to keep up with game/OS/whatever patches would be a huge step backwards, and basically undermine the entire use for the internet?

Why use iTunes when there's a CD store?

Why use e-mail when there's the postal office?

Why use a word processor when we have pen & paper?

Sorry, but trying to jam a 2008 broadband connected user base into a 1990s-esque consumption model just doesn't work. Technology progresses with time. Seeing as how ISPs are a technology based & driven industry, you'd think they'd actually be on top of that.

Omega
Premium Member
join:2002-07-30
Golden, CO

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Because mmorpg's evolve. They do not stay stagnent. It isn't like the game is broken (as a non-gamer may think of the definition of a patch) it is they are adding more content. If you pay a monthly fee for a game, you expect it to change over time.

To my knowledge, patches are not avilable via mailed disc, they are not finalized until the very day of the patch release. Thus, even if they were sent through the mail, you'd have to wait for the disc to be written and you'd have to wait for the mail to come. The game is not playable unless you have the current patch. So you are torn between paying for a service you cannot play or paying for internet bandwidth.

The game requirements also state that a broadband connection is the only type of connection supported.

This is just another example as to why caps are bad. When caps start preventing LEGAL activities, then there is a problem.
s133
join:2007-12-06
USA

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Wow, out of all the stupidity you've embarrassed yourself with at DSLR, this nears the top of the list. Your big-corporate nutswinging really knows no bounds.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

1 recommendation

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said by FFH5:

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
You are kidding right. Are you seriously suggesting a de-evolution of technology because of caps?

TK: "Oil is too expensive, we'll all have to go back to horse and buggy."

You: "But, TK, what about advancing technology and looking at electric cars, hybrid vehicles, alternative fuels?"

TK: "Nope, that would cost the corporations too much. Why shouldn't they reserve the right to limit your oil consumption by restricting you to a horse and buggy?"

Anyway, patches won't be a problem with Comcast @ 250GB, but most certainly will be with Time Warner and their 5GB-40GB caps.
ualdayan
join:2004-07-17
Antioch, TN

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Don't forget that also the server and the client have to always be kept in sync on any changes. If they mailed CDs that would mean suddenly you couldn't log in one day until you received your update CD. What about when things don't go as imagined? Say you have a server crash bug that requires a client update to prevent the crashing. Do you A) mail CDs and wait 2 weeks all the while your game server is constantly crashing due to some bug that you can't fix (big problem in an MMO) or B) immediately require a new client, and those that have CDs mailed to them suddenly can't play for a week or two while they wait to get their CD.

Then there's things like live events. EQ2 is doing a ton of them leading up to their next expansion. These things require changes in the geometry of the areas. This means redownloading geometry files, texture for the new objects, voiceovers for the NPCs, and even music in some cases. They're trying to gradually change the game world so when the expansion comes out it isn't just "Hey, we found this unexplored and unknown land all of a sudden out of the blue". On top of that they are running a Halloween event with a haunted mansion. If they had to mail out CDs for every update you can bet they'd either stop providing near as many live events and the product quality would suffer, OR they'd charge to mail to you and you'd be forced to buy it because everybody has to have the same client files. For example: If you let some people buy the new content and others didn't what would happen? You'd see a guy floating in midair or an NPC just constantly falling then appearing back in the air because to him he's standing on a platform, but that doesn't exist in your game because you didn't update. All kinds of odd glitches like that would happen.

DrModem
Trust Your Doctor
Premium Member
join:2006-10-19
USA

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Several reasons...

1. It would take some time to manufacture all those discs and then send them to the millions of WoW customers, because in an MMO, every last player has to have the latest patch or they can't play. That would of course, run up vast (Unnecessary) expenses, which would in turn probably cause Blizzard to raise the monthly price rate for playing.

2. It would be too slow. Do you know how often MMO patches come out? Lots of times, as much as once or twice a week.

3. Why waste money on the slow manufacture CDs when you can, for very small expense, use an internet server and distribute the patch instantly the same hour it's finalized? Especially with the prevalence of high-speed internet. In the time it would take to get one batch of CDs out, you could have released thousands of patches.

Your question makes no sense anyway.

Jim Kirk
Premium Member
join:2005-12-09
49985

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
ROFLMAO! That has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard, even from you.

Oh, and by the way, WoW disproves your theory that bittorrent is only used by pirates.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

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For what it's worth, I am glad that there is a dissenting point of view. I don't think it holds water, but I'm grateful it's here.

If this were a thread of nothing but "Yea; What he said" posts, then I'd be forced to hijack the thread into a porn or gay marriage debate and none of us want that.

I hope everyone here appreciates your positively ridiculous opinion. I certainly do.

I suspect you're like one of those utilities we need but don't really appreciate, like storm drains. I think this thread would just get all backed up without you.

NV
thevorpal1
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA

thevorpal1

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by Noah Vail:

If this were a thread of nothing but "Yea; What he said" posts, then I'd be forced to hijack the thread into a porn or gay marriage debate ...
Oh?
and none of us want that.
Let me be the first here to dissent to that opinion.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

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FYI the patches are not constant, infact they can go months without any major data pushes. atm this is only covered because blizzard just pushed a 1.2 gig patch that is a prelude to their expansion in november. patches like this are rare. a normal bugfix patch is likely only a few megs.

Mephisto13
join:2008-05-16
Gatineau, QC

1 edit

Mephisto13

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

said by Kearnstd See Profilea 1.2 gig patch
[/BQUOTE :


Poor poor dialup users of WoW...

Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
Premium Member
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH

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I dunno. As much as you guys like to rag on TK, I think he has a small bit of an underlying, unmentioned point here and before I get lynched as well, hear me out.

ISP's are getting to the point now where anemic caps on standard tiers are commonplace. Not to mention they'd LOVE to go pay-per-byte if they could get away with it. Aside from comcast, we're talking in the norm of maybe 50GB caps if that much for around 5mbits of bandwidth.

Also keep in mind how many ISP's are trying to outlaw bittorrent in general in various ways, both proactively and passively.

I don't think we have to go back to cd's or nothing at all for this kind of thing. But the option SHOULD be there for these larger patches and Blizzard SHOULD make the distinction (if they haven't already. And I'm talking about average joe user who can barely turn on the pc and put in a cd. Not semi-tech-saavy middle age WoWtard who probably already knows from various blogs and such.) that their patching system uses bit-torrent considering the protocol is still in that grey area of legality for most.

The whole idea of Blizzard foregoing traditional direct HTTP patch downloads for bit-torrent I'm still on the fence about it as both options create problems for either party so neither is better for wear.

••••
bcoleman71
join:2007-09-18
Dallas, TX

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said by FFH5:

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Receive game patches on a mailed disk when you can just as easily receive it almost instantaneously by downloading it from the vendor?....hmmm, let's see how a possible scenario could play out using a fictitious game:

There is this guy, let's call him Bob, who bought this game several weeks ago and has been playing it religiously with is new buddies from around the world. Bob and his new buddies are warriors on a quest to seek the treasures of an enchanted land far far away. They are in a race against many, many other groups to reach this enchanted land. The first group to reach it will be granted ALL of its riches and wonders.

In order to get to the treasures, Bob and his buddies must all work together. Bob's role on his team is the holder of the secret key to grant them passage into the enchanted land while the others are responsible for getting them there by any means necessary. Bob and his buddies are very good but they have some strong competition - several other teams are right on their heels.

During the game, the vendor releases an upgrade to the enchanted land to bestow upon the winners, not only the treasures of the enchanted land, but the key to the grand prize of a free all expenses paid vacation to a real life tropical paradise with beaches and real life beautiful girls. Alas, as a result of this upgrade, the enchanted land has been changed so much that Bob's current key no longer works. He must install the upgrade in order that he and his team be granted access to the new enchanted land when they reach it.

Bob's teammates have received their upgrade disks and have already installed them, but Bob is still waiting on his. Bob and his team finally reach the gateway to the enchanted land but, you guessed it, they cannot enter - Bob still doesn't have his key! Frantically Bob calls the vendor:

Bob: HELP! We have reached the enchanted land and I haven't received my disk from you guys yet. Have you event sent it?
CS Rep: Let me look at your account....Ah yes, we show we shipped you the disk 10 days ago.
Bob: BUT I HAVEN'T RECEIVED IT YET!! WHAT DO I NEED TO DO?
CS Rep: There is the possibility it is lost or delayed in the mail. I can ship you a new one overnight....can I please verify your address?
Bob: WAIT, PLEASE...ISN'T THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO FOR ME NOW?!?! LIKE GIVE ME THE NEW KEY!
CS Rep: Please don't yell at me...it is not going to get you any closer to receiving the disk. Unfortunately you need the upgrade to enter the enchanted land. The upgrade contains a unique key for you and only you.
Bob: So I have to wait?!?!
CS Rep: Unfortunately, yes.
Bob: CRAP!! If only there were a way to download the upgrade!
CS Rep: I'm sorry sir, that option was not deemed suitable because of the large size of the update. Management felt many users would have complained that it caused them to exceed their monthly usage caps and they would then incur an unnecessary penalty for the use of their service.

So, Bob has no other choice now. Bob resigns himself to having to wait so he orders the new disk...and he informs his buddies. They are virtually camping outside the gateway of the enchanted land - and they are some very unhappy campers by now!

In the meantime, another team reaches the enchanted land and they have the key...they get in, and they are the winners of the game and receive the tropical paradise vacation that was so sought after by Bob and his buddies.

Bob loses the game and then, he loses his new friends. Bob is devastated.

Many of you reading would probably say Bob should get a life...well, Bob was just about to do that. You know the tropical paradise vacation that they were fighting so hard for? Bob was going to meet his new buddies there of course, but he was also going to meet the girl of his dreams, who also just happened to be from the same city as Bob and on vacation with her family. As a result, Bob never knew she even existed. Bob lost the game, he lost his buddies...and he lost the girl...all because he had to rely on that service so affectionately known as "snail mail".

Pretty long story, but the point is it's absolutely ridiculous for us to take a step backwards when everybody else is moving forward. It's like we are in a race against time to see how fast we can get to the back of the line!

Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
Premium Member
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH

1 edit

Vchat20

Premium Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

Put simply: That's bob's issue. Since BOTH methods are available, it is HIS choice whether he wants to wait for a disc or download. If his ISP is literally breathing down his neck, he may choose the mailed disc to save his connection.

Fact is, it's not Blizzard's issue, not TK's issue, but Bob's and ultimately his ISP's.
bcoleman71
join:2007-09-18
Dallas, TX

bcoleman71

Member

Re: Why do these games need constant massive patches?

Read it again and pay attention to the details! It's a hypothetical story in which the vendor chose NOT TO ALLOW DOWNLOADS BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL ISSUE WITH CAPS!

Yeah, I know, it's a lot to read, but miss a critical word or phrase here and there and it changes the meaning.

Nightshade
Premium Member
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.


Mostly evolution of content, putting in new features, balancing the classes, or nerfing them. fixing bug errors or changing the npcs in general. There's lots of reasons why. Some are big changes, some not so big. It's really the nature of all MMORPGs. There is no such thing as a static MMORPGs. If there is you can guarantee that it will not last long.
said by FFH5:

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
The massive in MMORPG exactly means that, massive. Do you think it would be cost effective and efficient to mail out a massive amount of disks to players every single time a patch comes out, especially since MMORPGs update pretty often? I would think not and that is why Blizzard and other MMORPGs do not offer to mail patch disks to players, it is way too expensive and inefficient as opposed to downloading the patch

james16
join:2001-02-26

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Maybe you can explain why ISPs are unwilling to provide the service we pay them to provide. When you were arguing against "illegal" use of the internet you had some legs to stand on, but this time I'm severely disappointed in your post TK.

Also, mailing the patches on disks would cost way more, take longer and be horrible for the environment.

tahoe99
@sbcglobal.net

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
All I have to say to this is, Are you freaking insane???!!!
Do you have any idea what the internet is and what it is used for and where it is going? Have you any clue whatsoever?

Let me pose a question to you TK...what EXACTLY do you do with YOUR internet connection? Do you just make stupid posts on this board or others too? Do you just use email or do you watch video, download files, read news, etc. as well? Think about what YOU personally do on the internet and ask yourself, "Could I still do this w/o a good, low-cost, fast connection?" If all you do is read boards like this and make utterly stupid posts the way you do, then maybe you should revert back to what you had circa 1995.

When you make stupid comments like this, you really show your ineptness and complete lack of knowledge.

FYI, 2gb patches don't happen every month with Wow. This particular one happens to be in preparation for the release of the expansion due out in November which WILL be only distributed on DVD's. Most of the patches they push out are like a few hundred megs at most. Now whether they are a couple hundred megs or 2gb in size, the internet is perfect for distributing this sort of thing.

I don't know where you have been but you are so behind the times, you might as well live in North Korea.

Maybe NASA should still use the vehicles they did back in the 60's too. It will still get them to where they are going 10 years from now won't it?

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

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said by FFH5:

Maybe someone can explain why these games need constant massive patches in the 1st place.

EDIT: And since these patches can be obtained on a mailed disk, why don't they just do that instead of the downloads.
Games are getting bigger, better, better quality, etc. If they want to introduce new content, and new features to a game along with fixing other issues, they often need to supply large graphic files.

A game like World of Warcraft has more than 10 million subscribers worldwide, all over Europe, Asia, North America, AND elsewhere in the world, even in remote areas of Africa where a city may have DSL for the richer inhabitants of town.

The way pretty much all MMORPGs are designed, is that the players will have to have the latest patches before they can play again. There is scheduled maintenance on the servers, and DURING the scheduled maintenance the patch files for the clients are released. And to save on bandwidth from hundreds of thousands of players hitting their servers at once to get the patches, they use bittorrent technology to get the job done.

Sending out patches via mail is pretty much impossible in this setup, especially seen the cost of mailing CD's to other countries, and the chances they get lost in the mail. It's just completely unrealistic to do this for everyone. They can be obtained on disks for those who have dial-up, and don't mind waiting a few days to get a CD in the mail, but to supply the patches like that for all 10 million+ subscribers worldwide is an absolutely ludicrous idea.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

pnh102

Premium Member

Not Just Games!

What about patches and service packs for your operating system?

Who is going to be bothered to download the latest security patches and/or service for your home computer if that might push you over some ridiculously low cap?

Very low caps are the bane of the Internet. Fewer and fewer people will show interest in the "next greatest thing" that could be delivered using the Internet because they will be too cheap to risk overage charges from their ISPs. A reasonable cap (something very few people are likely to hit), with increases that match speed hikes, is a much better approach that allows for ISPs to manage budgets while continuing to deliver better service to customers.

•••••••••••
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Comcast treats customers like mushrooms!

I received the notice about the 250 GB Cap recently but Comcast did not indicate start date of each months measurement period or how to determine my usage. I recently purchased a router that stores usage statistics. I do not understand why the received packets on the WAN side of the router always exceed the number of received packets on the LAN side of the router by a factor of five to ten times. Is that Trashaffic included in my monthly usage? If my wireless usage was calculated in this manor I would be paying for 500 to 1000 minutes of Trashaffic usage for each 100 minutes of actual usage.

CosmicDebri
Still looking for intelligent life
join:2001-09-01
Lake City, FL

CosmicDebri

Member

Re: Comcast treats customers like mushrooms!

said by Mr Matt:

I received the notice about the 250 GB Cap recently but Comcast did not indicate start date of each months measurement period or how to determine my usage.
Lucky you.... I am a Comcrap customer in Florida, and I did not receive any notification of this bandwidth cap. If I wasn't a loyal DSLR reader I'd never know I should limit my updating/streaming movie/large file transferring/online gaming/emailing/browsing/etc activity.....

CapAttack
@ameritech.net

CapAttack

Anon

CapAttack

Ok guys,

Here's what I think about caps. I don't believe in internet land-line caps. Now TKjunkmail, the question is not about who believes or doesn't believe in caps..because some do and some don't. But the really right question is, "Is there something wrong with having unlimited caps in this country?" The answer's "No, that's not America."

Is there something wrong with having unlimited internet access attainable by anyone in the US as long as it is affordable? This is not the way we should be doing it in America.
k1ll3rdr4g0n
join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

k1ll3rdr4g0n

Member

Yet another cap delimia

I am just waiting for caps to blow up into the providers faces when someone gets their computer hacked simply because their ISP refused them service when they had to download a security patch....because they went over the "cap" (I have a feeling once people start going over the caps and when the couple thousand dollar bills start getting handed out...I'm sure someone is going to have a talk with these bozos). I think the provider's crystal ball was broken the day they thought about implementing caps. It will blow up in their face one day and they are just going to pass the cost onto the consumer.

Am I the only one noticing a trend (even before the whole economic crisis), you pay more for less.

I'm not pro-government all that often but when you got a multi-billion dollar corporation who keeps raising prices where there is no/little competition...its time for the government to come in and slap them on the hands, hard. And it doesn't take an idiot to know that even though providers are raising the prices now due to economic issues, those prices are not going to come down.
boast
join:2005-09-03
Miami, FL

boast

Member

cancel service

if only customers would voice their opinion with their money.

We need to all buy some wireless devices and create the biggest Ad hoc network ever!
NefCanuck
join:2007-06-26
Mississauga, ON

NefCanuck

Member

Not surprised

As the computer becomes even more of an entertainment hub with MMORPG's, streaming audio/video, VOIP and "legitimate" downloading of entertainment industry content becoming the biggest consumers of bandwidth, it's hardly shocking to see these types of results.

Typically now that I use a streaming audio service to get my listening fix, my consumption had trebled from about 5GB / month to 15GB / month.

The more services that get added that I want to use and pay for, the closer I would come to my ISP's cap, whether it is hard, soft, invisible or non-existent (In my case the latter as I am on a plan that in fact offered true unlimited bandwidth and they will take it from me only when I'm stone cold DEAD )

MrMoody
Free range slave
Premium Member
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC

MrMoody

Premium Member

Moon

quote:
When I spoke to Neil Armstrong
I'd have asked him what it was like on the moon.

bolt
End of the line DSL sucks.
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN

bolt

Premium Member

This patch...

This patch was to prepare folks for the upcoming addition. It also loaded the special events for All Hallow's Eve.

Honestly, since the users are paying for their internet connection and Blizzard is paying for theirs, who cares how much people download. Maybe if companies would be honest in their advertising and tell people that there are caps, this wouldn't be a issue at all. If you are advertising unlimited, then you shouldn't have a cap at all, hidden or not.

Wrath of the Lich King comes out November 13 and most people will probably buy it on a dvd.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

1 recommendation

iansltx

Member

How about pay per byte...

Honestly, why DON'T providers just do pay-per-byte like the utilities do?

Now before you jump on me, they could make a profit at 5-20c per GB, probably averaging 10-15c. Then they uncap your connection speeds so you download all you want, and pay for, and only for, what you download, maybe plus a bottom-line service fee of $15-$35.

I'd go for something like this. That way I could get a DOCSIS 3 cable connection...or at least a 20+/2.5+ DOCSIS 2 connection...and, with a good bandwidth monitor, control my usage without worrying about a mgical point at which either my internet stops working or massive overage charges abound.

What do y'all think?

tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
MVM
join:2008-01-16
Gilbert, AZ

tubbynet

MVM

Re: How about pay per byte...

would work very well...if the prices were not jacked up...

can't you see a provider like comcast, tw, frontier charging obscene prices because this "free market competition" i keep hearing about doesn't exist...especially in rural localities?

also, i telework quite heavily, stream a lot of video, remote into my house for documents, etc. on a typical month, i use between 40-50 gigs between my wife and i. there is no voip, so this is all data.
i cannot see cox dropping my bill at least $10-15 because they did pay-per-byte (using your pricing scheme), when they already have me at $45 or so.

just won't work when corporate greed exists

q.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena to iansltx

Premium Member

to iansltx
said by iansltx:

Honestly, why DON'T providers just do pay-per-byte like the utilities do?
Because 75% of consumers use 5 to 10 Gb a month or less, and even with $1 a Gb, they would make less then the $35 they make now on a broadband connection.

You see, the basic service fee for a electricity, water, or gas connections is somewhere between $2 and $10, just to have it connected.

If Broadband wants to be a "utility", they should have a base connection fee that is in the same pricerange, say $10 broadband connection fee, including local taxes etc, give them a free 1 Gb to allow for spam, portscans, and other traffic not asked for, and then charge them per Gb.

They would make less money that way. I am willing to bet to make any money at all they would have to have a $30 flat service fee at the minimum, if not more. So from a financial point of view it's much better (and more greedy, as corporations are) to charge more for what people already have now.

superdog
I Need A Drink
MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA

superdog

MVM

Blizzard should also pay

I am an ISP. I do not cap my users, nor will I ever. If a user needs to download an update to play on online game?, so be it. What really pisses me off is that Blizzard is making $$ on these games, and instead of using torrents to distribute their content, why not just buy the bandwidth they need instead of making others pay for their distribution needs. They are passing on all of their distribution costs to the ISP's and the consumer

••••••••
SithL0rd
join:2001-05-17
Memphis, TN

SithL0rd

Member

Downloading games.

You can download pretty much any game legally these days. Direct2Drive.com, Steam.com, Xbox Live, etc.

I have been in Beta tests where the only way to get the files was downloading. 10gb+ is the norm for a computer game.

winterforge
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Seattle, WA

winterforge

Premium Member

Insanity

I wondered if TK Junk Mail was insane before this thread existed, but now it has been confirmed. Thanks TK.

maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena

Premium Member

OpenTTD

I run a few OpenTTD servers. When the game is running it doesn't eat up a lot of bandwidth, about 128 kbit/s for the total of 10 players per server, and I run 5. They aren't all full continuesly either.

The big downside of OpenTTD is the downloading of the map, which average about 2 to 3 Mb (the map changes when people build, and becomes larger) for each time a user connects. When a user disconnects because of problems or because they close the game for a minute, they will need to re-download the map as it is not "static" like for instance a Quake map.

Because of this, I generate quite a LOT of traffic. I have a few hundred users connecting each day, generating anywhere from 500 Mb to 1.5 Gb in upload traffic each day. I average about 30 to 35 Gb uploads on the game servers alone.

OpenTTD is completely Open Source, free, etc. I get many many compliments from players for hosting the servers. In my case, it is not the updates to the program causing the traffic, but the game itself, uploading the map each time a player connects.

I have absolutely no problem with it, my 10/1 connections seems to be able to handle it, plus all the other things me and my wife do on a daily basis.

My router informs me that I have generated 100 Gb download traffic, and 60 Gb upload traffic so far this month. NONE of the data download/uploaded is illegal/copyrighted.

What I have done this month:

- host 5 OpenTTD servers, see above.
- Downloaded Debian 4.0R4 to upgrade a server. (4Gb)
- Downloaded OpenSUSE 10.3 to test on my laptop. (4Gb)
- Uploaded my "crucial" backup files to my webhost in encrypted RAR format. (bout 10 Gb, have 100 Gb space).
- Watched online streaming video almost every day, mostly stuff in Dutch language to keep up with actualities over there, and several 2008 presidential campaign events throug youtube and other services.
- Downloaded a few ISO's from my MSDN account.
- Ran full Windows Update on two freshly installed XP machines I helped someone out with.
- I have been VPN'd into my work many, many times and uploaded/downloaded files I needed to work on.

And that is just the stuff I remember, I know I downloaded a LOT more this month, and all of it legal.

And then I am not counting all the stuff my wife does on her laptop, I know she watches a lot of online video from some of the networks she watches, like HGTV, TLC, etc, as well as a lot of MySpace stuff with Youtube links etc.

Everything adds up. I have torrented a few movies and TV shows in the past because I forgot to record them, but the majority of my 100 Gb download and 60 Gb upload have been completely legal.

On top of what I do, DirecTV is now experimenting with "HD Video on demand" using a broadband internet connection, so it can download HD Quality video to your Satellite DVR box. On top of that, services like Netflix and Blockbuster are getting more and more popular, and offer unlimited movie downloading for a flat monthly fee. (The movies have a time-bomb in them, just like you would rent them and have to return them after a while).

The world is HUNGRY for a LOT of bandwidth, and in the last 2 years the amount of LEGAL services that use a LOT of bandwidth have been exploding, as companies are finally seeing that selling online movies, and offering full TV episodes on their websites (with commercials in it) is actually working.

Implementing caps may have been a good idea 2 years, or even a year ago.... and of course piracy is still rampant everywhere. But due to the emerging of many new, very bandwidth hungry services out there, imposing a cap would only halt progress.

After all, if companies develop new services and are moving more and more things online.... but no customers sign up because their ISP is capping their bandwidth, you end up with a lose/lose/lose situation, for customer, client, AND ISP.

pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA

pspcrazy

Member

Re: OpenTTD

Give it a few seconds, in a few seconds someone will come breathing down your neck, scolding you like a child about how you should "have a business account" for hosting non business related things haha.
switchman
join:1999-11-06
ARRIS SB6183
(Software) OPNsense

switchman to maartena

Member

to maartena
said by maartena:

On top of what I do, DirecTV is now experimenting with "HD Video on demand" using a broadband internet connection, so it can download HD Quality video to your Satellite DVR box. On top of that, services like Netflix and Blockbuster are getting more and more popular, and offer unlimited movie downloading for a flat monthly fee. (The movies have a time-bomb in them, just like you would rent them and have to return them after a while).
And this is exactly why ISP's, i.e Comcast, Time Warner, AT&T, etc, want to implement caps/per byte billing. They do not want to be the dumb pipe. They want to offer the content and get the associated revenue.

Yborg
Premium Member
join:2002-01-01
Bavaria

Yborg

Premium Member

Raid the bastards.....

For the Horde baby!!! We (Horde) should raid those deamn ISP's with low caps like we raid Alliance city's.

hello300
@comcast.net

hello300

Anon

The 250GB cap is already really not much.5GB...just no

Really, 5GB? Wow, I would go over that cap in 2 days. I do online gaming and no, a 4hr session is more like 500MB download and around 100MB upload. WOW is a VERY efficient game if it is that little.

I am here thinking that this 250GB is a hindrance and annoyance and ISPs are actually going as low as 5GB. If the connection is used for anything besides text mail and instant messenger, then the user will exceed his cap easily each month.

AnonNutter
@verizon.net

AnonNutter

Anon

Re: The 250GB cap is already really not much.5GB...just no

said by hello300 :

Really, 5GB? Wow, I would go over that cap in 2 days. I do online gaming and no, a 4hr session is more like 500MB download and around 100MB upload. WOW is a VERY efficient game if it is that little.
Horse hockey... We have dozens of gamers on our network that pull about twice as much as a single VoIP session would pull in the same time.

What kind of moronic programmers wrote the code in the "game" you are playing?
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to hello300

Premium Member

to hello300
WoW on its own does not use that much bandwidth during a day of playing. usage does go up when one throws in Ventrilo but most of the 10mil probally dont use vent.
casimir81
join:2001-12-05
Everett, WA

2 edits

casimir81

Member

This Article is Garbage

There is a handy program enabled by default in Warcraft called blizzard background downloader. Every time there is a patch it will start up a few weeks (or a few days for small patches) in advance and download the patch very slowly (5-10 kb/s) when you are not using Warcraft. 800mb of the 1.2gb patch was downloaded over a 3 week period with this program, that's roughly 39mb a day at 5-10 kb/s. The last 400mb was downloaded the day of the patch via blizzard's bit torrent program. This article was way off base and completely wrong in almost everything it said. There has been only one other patch that even came close to this large in Warcraft's history, it was the patch shortly before their last expansion, The Burning Crusade, almost two years ago. 90% of the other patches are under 100mb with a few being 400-600mb.

Bellundo
@teksavvy.com

Bellundo

Anon

Bandwidth providers are going bankrupt

Yes bandwidth providers such as Level3 are almost bankrupt. The price of bandwidth keeps on falling and these internet service providers keep on lying to the public expecting them to believe such falsehoods. No wonder the bandwidth providers are going bankrupt... they have these isp's that cap to blame for all of this. Fact is in the UK and Canada as well as a few other countries likes down in Australia people are being duped out of their money and some isp's even have the audacity to charge for using too much bandwidth. Well all i see is the whole tech sector crumbling down on wall street. Greed is the cause of all of this. Microsoft with that mistake called vista to try to suck everyone into upgrading memory or video cards and isp's charging for bandwidth that's all but free.
mob (banned)
On the next level..
join:2000-10-07
San Jose, CA

mob (banned)

Member

I see both sides

I worked at a WISP for a while, and "patch day" was always not fun. Patch day could be when MS released 500 4mb "updates" or a 340mb content update for a video game. The company had a hard 300MB limit on data transfer per 24 hour period, and once you hit, you were out of luck unless you wanted to shell out more money.

Of course, consumers have been told for years "no limits, go all out, our network is overbuilt" and now that its starting to be put the test, it seems providers are getting a little butt hurt and whining.

Still to this day the advertisements still tout high speed, unlimited time on line, no limits to your on line experience. I don't think a commercial of "hey, sign up with us, be locked in for 12 or 24 months. Oh ya, you're not going to be able to do anything but look at text for fear of crossing our caps or we will be sending you a huge bill."

I can't wait to see the advertising campaign devised for this concept. "High speed, part of the time" or "Speed when you can afford to spare transfers".

Caps are a sad concept and only put in place to make more money while providing less service.....
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