DotMac4Shill H8r Premium Member join:2007-10-26 Huntington Beach, CA 1 edit |
DotMac4
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:01 am
Supply will increase with demandSupply will simply accelerate. Level 3 and other providers have nothing to gain and everything to lose by reaching capacity. Reaching capacity costs them a lot of money and there is certainly a large opportunity cost. It is in their best interest to keep up with demand. | |
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| swhx7 Premium Member join:2006-07-23 Elbonia |
swhx7
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:24 am
Re: Supply will increase with demandIsn't there excess capacity on the mainlines? That's what I've read. The bottleneck is from the endpoints to the backbones. Residential service in particular needs to get upgraded to fiber.
It's easy to get these dire predictions if you assume demand will continue increasing at the present rate, but also assume that infrastructure will remain the same. But that's not realistic.
The study is contrived to support anti-neutrality political maneuvering. | |
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| | en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2007-Nov-19 12:04 pm
Re: Supply will increase with demandIncreasing bandwidth by a factor of 2 at the home (per line), would require capacity at the backhaul to increase substantially, if that capacity is not already there. Items such as sniffing (AT&T's anti-piracy attempt), and throttling (Sandvine - Comcast, COX, and others) are attempts at allowing the Telcos/Cableco's to have their cake and eat it too. Eg. We'll give you 50Mbps, but you can only download HTML and items through our portal.
If they _really_ want to push that kind of service, they _should_ call it AOL or something else, not 'Internet'. | |
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hopeflickerCapitalism breeds greed Premium Member join:2003-04-03 Long Beach, CA
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and the shills...will blame it on P2P | |
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Re: and the shills...that's why they want to get rid of Network Neutrality | |
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| | spewakR.I.P Dadkins Premium Member join:2001-08-07 Elk Grove, CA ·Consolidated Com..
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spewak
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:18 am
Re: and the shills...said by LowRider:that's why they want to get rid of Network Neutrality Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less!! | |
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| | bUU join:2007-05-10 Kissimmee, FL |
to LowRider
The problem isn't specifically P2P but rather the way P2P goes hand-in-hand with super-high volume usage of bandwidth. For practically everything else in our world, you pay for how much you use. Heavy users pay more; light users don't have to subsidize the heavy users, and instead pay only for what they use. That's equity.
"Net neutrality" is just a cover for "make everyone pay for my excesses".
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| tomatoe Premium Member join:2002-08-03 Kansas City, MO |
to hopeflicker
said by hopeflicker:and the shills will blame it on P2P Unless you work at an ISP and actually see what the traffic is, I'd hold my breath. 50-60% off all the backbone traffic is P2P. It's a fact ... it's not web browsing, it's not gaming, it's not multicast, it's not voip, it's not email ...it's P2P. | |
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| bUU join:2007-05-10 Kissimmee, FL |
to hopeflicker
... and the "miscreants" and their "apologists" will call people who disagree with them "shills" (probably because they cannot accept the reality that reasonable people disagree with them). :rolleyes: Are we done calling each other names?
Geez... sometimes it is like friggen kindergarten around here!!! | |
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kcblack Premium Member join:2000-09-11 Chicago, IL |
kcblack
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:05 am
Doom and Gloom4:20 into the video...makes you wonder what they have been smokin' As I remember, the Internet (notice the capital I) has been doomed to meltdown several times in the past and it hasn't come to pass yet. There has been one of those rules of thumb that computer guys have known since the COBOL days. "Data expands to fill the available space", its true of RAM, its true of disk storage, its true of bandwidth....'nuff said. Kevin | |
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| JRW2R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Gary, Ziggy, Max. Premium Member join:2004-12-20 La La Land 1 edit |
JRW2
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:09 am
Re: Doom and GloomI'm sorry, your logical response can not be accepted, we all must put on our hats and wait for the imminent meltdown of the internet. Have these people forgotten about all the MILES of dark fiber that exist NOW! FIOS has PLENTY of bandwidth to go around NOW and with the GPON upgrade, they will have an even larger pipe to your home to use. | |
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| | kcblack Premium Member join:2000-09-11 Chicago, IL |
kcblack
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 12:17 pm
Re: Doom and Gloomsorry, I forgot for a minute that I was supposed to write a FUD response Kevin | |
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| | JigsawStardust We Are Premium Member join:2000-10-21 Cleveland, OH |
Jigsaw to JRW2
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 12:28 pm
to JRW2
We Just need more trucks and Big Pipes.I been waiting for my E-mail from last year i still have not received it . | |
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to kcblack
'"Data expands to fill the available space", its true of RAM, its true of disk storage, its true of bandwidth....'nuff said.'
But filling the pipe completely is still a problem. Same as filling up all the RAM or HDD space. | |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:06 am
Only If...Does Netcraft confirm it? | |
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| | gaforces (banned)United We Stand, Divided We Fall join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA |
gaforces (banned)
Member
2007-Nov-19 12:35 pm
Re: OTA HDTVSorry, I should elaborate. Free over the air hdtv stations should alleviate some of the pressures on the internet for video. | |
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| | | jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL |
jester121
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 12:57 pm
Re: OTA HDTVThey have on demand OTA? That would be cool. | |
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| | | | gaforces (banned)United We Stand, Divided We Fall join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA |
gaforces (banned)
Member
2007-Nov-19 1:11 pm
Re: OTA HDTVsaid by jester121:They have on demand OTA? That would be cool. Technically possible with new equipment but more on the wishlist side, Id like the history channel, sci-fi, and speed on ota hdtv too If I wanted to watch something bad enough to pay for on demand, I'll buy the dvd. | |
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| | | | | jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL |
Re: OTA HDTVsaid by gaforces:If I wanted to watch something bad enough to pay for on demand, I'll buy the dvd. Ummm... that's kind of the point -- if everyone shared your view, there wouldn't be any video over the internet at all, other than amateur crap. | |
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excellent stenographythe USA story is a brilliant example of main stream media stenography:
take whatever someone tells you and write it down, with no fact checking, alternate sourcing or critical thinking applied.
I wonder how much writers for USA Today make? I can stenog as good as the next guy. | |
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| pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 11:24 am
Re: excellent stenographysaid by nasadude:take whatever someone tells you and write it down, with no fact checking, alternate sourcing or critical thinking applied. Wow... I totally agree with you! Hell froze over again! said by nasadude:I wonder how much writers for USA Today make? I can stenog as good as the next guy. Don't forget the real fictional writers are out on strike. USA Today has to make do with scabs till the next contract is approved. | |
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hmmIn my MIS class, in one chapter we are told that overbuilding fiber nertworks was part of the cause of the dot com bubble. It also talks about the massive amount of dark fiber sitting dormant. The next chapter claims the internet is unable to handle the traffic it sees today. Can they have it both ways?
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Re: hmmThe networks know One True Thing: in Washington, FUD, lubricated by lobbying money, works.
The average congresscritter knows nothing about IT and reflexively accepts both the word of the industry "experts" and their contributions.
So yes, if we don't speak up, en masse, they can have it both ways. And they will. If we don't speak up. | |
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| | Rogue WolfAn Easy Draw of a Sad Few join:2003-08-12 Troy, NY |
Re: hmmIn Washington, whoever has the most money is right. After all, if they weren't right, they wouldn't have so much money, would they? | |
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Re: hmmExactly. So we have this area of highly-concentrated correctness in Washington, sprinkled with streetwalkers for a bit of spice: they call it "K Street". | |
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| Matt3All noise, no signal. Premium Member join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC |
to jebba2005
said by jebba2005:In my MIS class, in one chapter we are told that overbuilding fiber nertworks was part of the cause of the dot com bubble. It also talks about the massive amount of dark fiber sitting dormant. The next chapter claims the internet is unable to handle the traffic it sees today. Can they have it both ways? Yes, because there has to be equipment on each end of the fiber to make it active and then ongoing maintenance to the fiber and equipment. That's the expensive part ... | |
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| | jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL |
Re: hmmWhat, you can't just put a Linksys router and a fiber transceiver at each end? [/sarcasm]
If nothing else, this site servers to illustrate that having a little bit of information is dangerous.
P.S. MattE, I'm not busting your chops, your post is right on. It's the other simplistic ninnies that make me shake my head... | |
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| Packeteers Premium Member join:2005-06-18 Forest Hills, NY Asus RT-AC3100 (Software) Asuswrt-Merlin
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to jebba2005
After working for a company that laid backbone fiber all over NYC, I can testify this is true. We used to lay cables and termination test 384 fiber strand cables, while the customer only used 16 of them. so between the dark fibers, and quantum leaps being made every year in data compression algorithms, we won't have capacity problems probably ever. there may be a bottle neck forming here and there that backbone designers will have to circumvent, but no apocalyptic capacity shortage. the expensive part IS laying the fiber. attaching equipment to each strand is justified and amortized by the port addition and throughput metering that is ultimated charged back to the customer. so higher bandwidth capacity requirements may not reduce our broadband end use cost anytime soon, but there certainly will never be a shortage of it unless you live in an area who's Central Office distribution center near you is not worth building out just to serve a few people like you. some areas have this problem even with old aDSL copper availability, especially if they are well penetrated by cable TV operators. | |
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TMMerlinThe Devil made me do it join:2003-06-19 Oxford, MI |
Not to worry !I am sure the "traffic shapers" and the "ISP throttles" will push and push and push and raise costs and raise costs and when we get the "volume monitor police" authorized by the Patriot Act ( yah see all that huge traffic is just disguised terrorist activity planning) and we that just pluck along won't feel a thing anyway ! | |
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NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours MVM join:2001-08-03 Grand Rapids, MI |
Well, it sells newspapers.Seems that the media as a whole are all about putting fear into the public. I compare this article to all the fearmongering I read about when it comes to Halloween and kids candy being poisoned. Will the internet end in 2010? I seriously doubt it. | |
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| openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 1:04 pm
Re: Well, it sells newspapers.Sex Violence Destruction War Drugs Political Bashing Apocalypse sells | |
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BabyBearKeep wise ...with Nite-Owl join:2007-01-11 |
Hang in there!So I guess this means that if AOL could just hang in there till 2010 they might make a come back. Seeing as how with the internet being so slow, whats old is new again! We all go retro and back to dialup! Well, at least till the Mayan calendar ends in 2012. "Sign up now for the Comcast triple play! Internet dialup at blazing 44kbps speed, with a massive 100 hours of monthly usage included! Comcast VOP phone service, that's right Voice over Pots is back! And the areas voted #1 HD TV service with picture so compressed and pixelated every show looks like a crime drama with peoples faces 'mosaic-ed' out. All for the low starting price of $149.99 per month with 3 year commitment." | |
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*OMG*OMG what will the world do without the internet, maybe the Chinese will take over our power grid right before then. | |
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| Synbios join:2002-05-18 Arlington, VA
1 recommendation |
Synbios
Member
2007-Nov-19 11:53 am
Re: *OMG*delete youtube, that will solve half the problem. | |
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Re: *OMG*can't simply just "delete" youtube. Youtube has become a Goliath and is slowly integrating with it's owner Google to become an even larger entity. | |
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PolarBear03The bear formerly known as aaron8301 Premium Member join:2005-01-03 |
What about Al?Can't we just hire Al Gore to invent a new, faster internet? | |
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USA Today Does Not DisappointThis is fear-mongering at its finest. And as is well known, FUD sells newspapers. | |
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·AT&T FTTP
1 recommendation |
The presidential race is coming up....I am sure the fear-mongering will increase. Next up:
* Google is going to start the new world order
* Bush is really a democrat
* Hillary and Obama slept together
* Justin from DSLReports is really an automated program being beta-tested by Microsoft / Linux / Apple / IBM. | |
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blitz
Anon
2007-Nov-19 2:00 pm
* Hillary and Obama slept togetherThanks,
I really could have done without that visual!
The only thing worse would have been to toss in Barney Frank or Ted Kennedy for a.......
Gotta go barf......... | |
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axus join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC 1 edit |
axus
Member
2007-Nov-19 12:16 pm
did they expect traffic to stop growing?The amount of data that people send back and forth will always be increasing. Internet providers are always growing their capacity so they can sell more.
If traffic is growing faster than they can build out quick enough to keep up, then guess what? They can raise the price! When a resource is scarce, raising the price allows a "fair" distribution, and encourages new producers to appear.
Obviously an increased price is good for AT&T and other backbone providers, so why are they against it? Of course it's possible that the internet isn't growing too fast, and they are using it for other purposes. But it's believable that production can't keep up. I think the issue is they don't want new producers to appear. If they can't provide all the bandwidth fast enough, other companies would build more to meet the demand. That would mean future competition for them, and the capacity crunch would be met eventually, bringing prices down.
What they'd probably like, instead, is to control the demand side by throttling traffic or capping it. It's like the old phone monopolies where people didn't use much long distance because of the cost... except instead of cost they'll use poor performance. I don't think this will work, though. The business market is always going to demand good performance, and since it's more profitable, competitors would show up there first. From there, they can move into the consumer market. | |
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2010 = bad yearIP addresses will run out. IPv4. We're doomed. As of May 2007, predictions of exhaustion date of the unallocated IANA pool seem to converge to between March 2010 and May 2010. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP ··· haustion | |
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Even if it tru its not going to happen55,000,000,000 is a lot of money. IF the cable companies spend that much money upgrading, one go to see a huge amount of defaults and bankruptcy in the industry. As much Google wants cram HD video down the network it not going to happen as longs as the bandwidth needed is not economically feasible. Economics is the regulator of internet bandwidth. | |
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ThespisI'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. Premium Member join:2004-08-03 Keller, TX |
Thespis
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 2:44 pm
Pokey?quote: ...will start to seem pokey
How many kbps is "pokey"? | |
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| fatnesssubtle
join:2000-11-17 fishing |
Re: Pokey?said by Thespis:quote: ...will start to seem pokey
How many kbps is "pokey"? You put your right foot in. And then you wait a minute. You take your right foot out. And then you wait a minute. You put your right foot in. And then you wait a minute. And you shake it all about. And then you wait a minute. | |
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Ben Premium Member join:2007-06-17 Fort Worth, TX |
Ben
Premium Member
2007-Nov-19 3:09 pm
It Won't HappenCapacity will increase as the need increases. It'd have to.
If there was a serious problem then the government will intervene. People and society are too addicted to the Internet for the government to do nothing, if push comes to shove. Not to say I necessarily want the government to intervene, but it would be good if that's the only way.
I'm more concerned about IPv4 and lack of addresses. There are already more people (in the world) than IPv4 addresses, you know.
What we need is IPv6. So even in a worse case scenario (20 IPs per person), there are still plenty to go around.
Do this, and we can instead worry about overpopulation, running out of phone numbers, and the (real) apocalypse, things that would all happen before we run out of IPv6 addresses. | |
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jdir join:2001-05-04 Santa Clara, CA |
jdir
Member
2007-Nov-19 4:02 pm
27 Petabytes per month !!!That's a lot of video the NSA has to watch and record. I guess the NSA has to buy truck load of hard drive a month to record all those videos | |
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