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story category The Last Stand For Canadian Independent ISPs
Indie operators issue final filing to Canadian regulators...
(old news - 01:11PM Thursday Jul 24 2008)
tags: legal · business · bandwidth · world · Bell Sympatico · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Tipped by tiger9 See Profile
Ever since Bell Canada decided to throttle wholesale competitors without telling them last March, independent Canadian ISPs have been trying to get Bell regulators to take action. While Bell Canada insists network congestion makes such throttling necessary, data doesn't support those claims. Independent ISPs, under the banner of CAIP (Canadian Association of Internet Providers), claim the real goal was to prevent competing wholesalers from offering DSL service that's superior to their own, throttled Sympatico service.

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While the CRTC denied immediate relief to indie operators from Bell throttling last May, a full ruling on whether Bell is being anti-competitive is expected this September. In their final filing with Canadian regulators, CAIP takes one last stab at deconstructing Bell claims. They also request that the CRTC declare Bell broke the law, and immediately act to stop the throttling.

"Bell has offered no documentary evidence that supports its oft-repeated claim that its traffic shaping practices are justified because they improve the experience of all users on its network," says CAIP. "In fact, Bell’s traffic shaping practices have diminished the experience for a large proportion of users, just so that Bell can free up bandwidth for its Bellvideostore.ca service and its 7 Mbps and 16 Mbps retail Internet access services."

Will the CRTC agree? "I think we've done well in representing the both the problem and inaccuracies in this submission, so, unless the decision makers have been bought, something good should come of this," Teksavvy CEO Rocky Gaudrault tells me. "The old way of doing business, where ethics and profits are at odds, must cease to exist," opines Gaudrault. "Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward."

Related:
  1. Primus Backs CAIP Against Bell Canada
  2. Canadian Regulators Deny Relief For Bell Canada Traffic Shaping
  3. Bell Outlines Plan To Cap Wholesalers
  4. Throttled Bell Competitors Still Waiting On CRTC Ruling
  5. Canadian Regulators Strangling Independent ISPs
  6. Canadian ISPs (Almost) Come Clean On Throttling
  7. Indie Canadian ISPs Fight For Their Life
  8. CRTC Posts Private Data To Public Website
Forums » The Last Stand For Canadian Independent ISPs
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ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

Just cuttin out the middlemen

No need for all these hands in the pot.
tiger9

join:2005-08-01
Ont,Canada

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

Yeah, right Never mind that GAS/5410 is a regulated, shared (to competitors) service JUST like the local loop to your house is, and is subject to regulations.

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

I forgot, this is Canada we're talking aboot.

Plus mains dans le pot.
the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON


2 edits

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

»ca.youtube.com/watch?v=TcW8F91dZO8
st7860

join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
for everyone that didn't already know, companies in Canada are able to put their own DSLAMS into Bell's central offices and thus are not REQUIRED in any way to use Bell's backhaul. but teksavvy chooses to operate in that manner.
tiger9

join:2005-08-01
Ont,Canada

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

I'd like to see you afford a co-located DSLAM, though
Capharnaum

join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC

said by st7860 See Profile :

for everyone that didn't already know, companies in Canada are able to put their own DSLAMS into Bell's central offices and thus are not REQUIRED in any way to use Bell's backhaul. but teksavvy chooses to operate in that manner.
They can't put their own remotes though. There's a lot of places they couldn't service even if they decided to deploy their DSLAMS.

Imo, they should all band up together with a known partner (like Google) and kill Bell's ISP service. It would be well deserved.
st7860

join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA

not sure what you're talking about but i'm pretty sure that anyone is allowed to rent a copper line from bell that goes from the central office to the customer, and so is not required to use any other piece of bell equipment except that piece of bare wire. most of those companies complaining about throttling choose to buy as much from bell as possible instead of the other way around.

drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada
·TekSavvy Solutions..

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

I don't know if *you* are aware, but Canadians payed for most of the infrastructure that bell uses through subsidies (reads taxes) so I don't see how we should need to pay twice to get some competition.

Sheesh walk a mile in a man's shoes before you speak.

OK let's see let's try an American solution, throw more money at it...yeah that'll work...
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st7860

join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA

since when are CANADIAN companies prohibited from leasing only a piece of bell canada copper? OH! they're not? oh yeah! anyone in Canada can lease bell copper without the requirement to lease bell equipment, bell dslams, and so on. Teksavvy and so on chose to not build their own network.

fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY

Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen

I'm not quite sure if you understand what a RT is, and why the above poster mentioned it.

Here's a link to the sites FAQ: »SBC Remote Terminal (RT) FAQ »What is an RT and what does it do?

It's SBC, but a RT is a RT. Guessing by the large geographical size of Canada, I'm sure that there is more than likely several RT's spread throughout. The RT does NOT bring any sort of copper back to a CO. AFAIK, you can't rent space to install your own hardware. Judging by pictures I have seen, they are usually small.

So yes - they could put their own DSLAM into several CO's - but they will be cutting off a significant part of possible subs.

I've also heard rocky mention that something about they would then have to pay some type of tax, because their current situation does not list them as having a "presence" in several areas of Canada. I'm not familiar enough with Canada's tax, but apparently it was a "GST" in Montreal/Quebec that they would then have to pay - IIRC.

hurleyp

join:2000-06-20
Ottawa, ON

CRTC

CRTC = Canadian Roadblock to Telecommunications Competition

The CRTC and the big telcos are in each other's back pockets so why would things be any different?
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

greendragon
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Stewartville, MN

Biting the hand that feeds you...

I agree with the independents.

I don't think it's a good idea for them to piss off the decision makers, " so, unless the decision makers have been bought".
--
Folding for our future!!

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans

join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Re: Biting the hand that feeds you...

If you're implying the CRTC? It's Liberal dominated, there are a few new Conservative members that have recently gotten posts. The main reason why is the Liberal party held power for so long they could put people literally everywhere and continue to run everything as they see fit despite being 'out' of power in a minority government.

Count on top with Bell, and tossing in the buyout with a dose of Liberal politics. Well...you better bet people are going to bite back. It usually takes a long time for Canadians to get cranky over something, in this case? You bet.

There are a few things you don't play with up here, oddly the internet is becoming one of them.

greendragon
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Stewartville, MN

I hear you.

I don't doubt that it happens. There are times when calling people on stuff like that piss them off, like I was talking about. Or if you call them out they could do something different becasue you called them on it.

It isn't normaly a good idea to piss off the big guy, unless you have a whole lot of little guys to back you up (or another big guy).
--
Folding for our future!!

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

The only problem with TekSavvy's filing is that the result would be that Bell couldn't even throttle its own customers.

So what TekSavvy is fighting for is not that its customers be treated equally with Bell's customers. He wants either a network re-architecture or no throttling of anyone. Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.

And the reason the throttling is done at the local level is not to cause TekSavvy some competitive disadvantage, but because that is where the bottlenecks are.
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bbenso1

join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

So what TekSavvy is fighting for is not that its customers be treated equally with Bell's customers. He wants either a network re-architecture or no throttling of anyone. Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.
Actually, from what I've seen TekSavvy simply wants the ability to offer non-throttled service to his customers, as per the original agreement he had with Bell. I'm guessing he doesn't really care how that happens, so long as it does. Whatever Bell needs to do to provide that service is not his problem. If they want to throttle their own customers they are welcome to do that, but they will have to figure how to do so without impacting their wholesale customers. That's Bells problem to figure out.

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

And the reason the throttling is done at the local level is not to cause TekSavvy some competitive disadvantage, but because that is where the bottlenecks are.
Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.
The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

travisc

join:2001-11-09
Port Perry, ON

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

You're about the only one that seems to disagree... But that's your role on DSLR, isn't it?

elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO
·Mediacom

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.
The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
then may be i dont know but they should ether A. upgrade there network
or b. not sell so much to 3rd partys?

oh wait that would mean spending money or not making as much
bbenso1

join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field?

TekSavvy and I both do. How about you?

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field?

TekSavvy and I both do. How about you?
I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
bbenso1

join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion.
Okay, so given your background, at what level does congestion become 'significant'?

sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion.
And if you were doing all that at a high level, then you know that if someone came in and audited your network and all they'd show you was a powerpoint presentation with some very vague numbers in it, you'd likely tell them to please give you the raw data before you drew any conclusions or spent another dime, right?

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by sporkme See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion.
And if you were doing all that at a high level, then you know that if someone came in and audited your network and all they'd show you was a powerpoint presentation with some very vague numbers in it, you'd likely tell them to please give you the raw data before you drew any conclusions or spent another dime, right?
They were giving data to lawyers at the CRTC - and not engineers. I'll bet the techs got the backup data - but that doesn't make the news.
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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field?

TekSavvy and I both do. How about you?
I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion.
A: Based on your track record here I absolutely do not believe this. No way no how.

B: You are a fake shill, who has taken it upon himself to argue against all evidence to the contrary that Bell Canada has issues with network congestion even after its own documents tell otherwise.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast


1 edit

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by DataRiker See Profile :

A: Based on your track record here I absolutely do not believe this. No way no how.

B: You are a fake shill
A: Who cares what you believe.

B: Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:

"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.

Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented."

adisor19

join:2004-10-11
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.
The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
Ah yes, must be that obvious evidence that nobody else but Bell and corporate shills like you seem to notice.

Adi

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by adisor19 See Profile :

Ah yes, must be that obvious evidence that nobody else but Bell and corporate shills like you seem to notice.

Adi
Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:

"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.

Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented."
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

Froggy

@teksavvy.com

thumbs down from:
LiamJunket See Profile

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

It's easy for these Americans to laugh while drinking their beer and reading tidbits of an article then coming up with the conclusion since Canada is an inferior country it must be all the people who live in Canada's fault.

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.
The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
The congestion has actually gone UP since they implemented throttling. Did your wife switch your reading glasses with the rose colored ones again?

Additionally, they could throttle at step 4, but it's pretty obvious they are throttling at step 3 to eliminate a competitive threat. Can't have those pesky unlimited customer eating into Bell impending TV service now can we?

See 9 replies to this post
Capharnaum

join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by bbenso1 See Profile :

Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling.
The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree.
Well the data they showed isn't what applies to third parties but I guess you'd be sold on anything... Maybe you should read the other parties submissions and understand the issue at hand before making those comments.

Froggy

@teksavvy.com

thumbs down from:
LiamJunket See Profile

What shoe crazy? You been eating too many of those flapjack waffles. Out of all the millions who saw and read the document only you have the wrong opinion. Maybe you read the article up-side-down.
Capharnaum

join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

The only problem with TekSavvy's filing is that the result would be that Bell couldn't even throttle its own customers.
First of all, the units that provide the backbone and the ISP unit are two separate entities.

Second, Bell was throttling their customers only before spreading it out to independants, so they obviously can just throttle their own customers. And back when they weren't forcing themselves onto competitors, nobody was complaining about throttling. Complaints about throttling only arose because Bell decided everyone had to be throttled to cut off their customers losses to the "unthrottled" competition.

fatness
subtle
Janitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing
·EarthLink

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said by LiamJunket See Profile :

Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.
Can you point to credible evidence of this? Bell Canada cannot.

If not, why keep repeating it as though it's true?
--
Female monkeys often utter loud, distinctive calls before, during or after sex..

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

said by fatness See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.
Can you point to credible evidence of this? Bell Canada cannot.

If not, why keep repeating it as though it's true?
OECD info shows trends on video over internet:
»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/32/57/40629067.pdf






»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/11/39869349.pdf


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Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

nekkidtruth
You fail at life.
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone

Are you kidding me?

Regardless of whether video over the Internet is on the rise, Bell still has yet to prove the existence of congestion. 2-5% congestion on a network is so ridiculously low it's not even funny. Half of that is probably due to shoddy network maintenance.

I'd ask you to stop posting before you make yourself look like an idiot, but it's too late. Probably a few years too late.
--
Weeeeeee

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

said by fatness See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.
Can you point to credible evidence of this? Bell Canada cannot.

If not, why keep repeating it as though it's true?
OECD info shows trends on video over internet:
»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/32/57/40629067.pdf

[att=1]
[att=2]

»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/11/39869349.pdf
[att=3]
IPTV is not internet video. IPTV comes from controlled headend equipment ala U-Verse. It doesn't traverse their transit backbones and the only intercarrier traffic it may generate is the actual channel traffic from the programmer/network.

joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

The only problem with TekSavvy's filing is that the result would be that Bell couldn't even throttle its own customers.

So what TekSavvy is fighting for is not that its customers be treated equally with Bell's customers. He wants either a network re-architecture or no throttling of anyone. Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic.

And the reason the throttling is done at the local level is not to cause TekSavvy some competitive disadvantage, but because that is where the bottlenecks are.
Bell is throtling the DSL connection between the user and the ISP. If Bell wanted to throttle their own user's internet connections they can certainly do that on the internet (ISP) side of things.


--
09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
zalternate

join:2007-02-22
BC
·TELUS

CRTC = Censorship

Did you know that the CRTC does not regulate the internet in Canada? Yet they seem to act like they can actually do something about companies like Bell and Rogers throttling and censoring the internet in Canada. Like Rogers Modifying their DNS servers to redirect users to a new ad's search page.

Try to file a complaint to the CRTC about your internet connection and get a reply of "We do not regulate the internet in Canaduh, so pizz off".

Rogers got rich by censoring American television stations in Canada. Bell gets rich by doing whatever they want.

Canada's Commissioner for complaints of Telecommunication services. A token complaints entity.
»www.ccts-cprst.ca/en/
Capharnaum

join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC

Re: CRTC = Censorship

said by zalternate See Profile :

Did you know that the CRTC does not regulate the internet in Canada? Yet they seem to act like they can actually do something about companies like Bell and Rogers throttling and censoring the internet in Canada.
Did you know that the CRTC regulates GAS service (3rd party ISPs)?
carnesr

join:2002-11-16
Sault Ste Marie, ON

get there own network

i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P

TI POIL

join:2006-03-05
Toronto, ON

Re: get there own network

If it would be that easy it would of been done a long time ago.
Capharnaum

join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC

said by carnesr See Profile :

i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P
They don't sell bandwidth to the resellers. They sell last mile access, which is something that was required of them when they asked for deregulation.

nonshill

@bell.ca

said by carnesr See Profile :

i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P
Holy! What a revolutionary idea. I can't BELIEVE no one else thought of it before you. You, sir, are an ABSOLUTE genius! They should be paying you for such amazing foresight and intellectual superiority.

I feel fortunate just to have read the most enlightened and generous comments ever on the Internet.

My life is now complete.
HackedServer

join:2008-07-12
Ossineke, MI

Big businesses

"Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward."

In the offices they are probably laughing at that comment. Powerful businesses think they rules the world and can following their own rule and morals.
bobobird

join:2008-06-08

arrogance

history has proven time and again what happens to corp arrogance...

as for bell/rogers/telus - we shall see

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com

The Last Stand For Canadian Independent ISPs

I take it there's an unwritten rule in Canada that you can't ask for compensation. That only applies to all the other countries except Canada.
Forums » The Last Stand For Canadian Independent ISPs


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