  ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Just cuttin out the middlemen
No need for all these hands in the pot. | |
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 |  tiger9
join:2005-08-01 Ont,Canada | Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen Yeah, right Never mind that GAS/5410 is a regulated, shared (to competitors) service JUST like the local loop to your house is, and is subject to regulations. | |
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 |  |   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA | Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen I forgot, this is Canada we're talking aboot.
Plus mains dans le pot. | |
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 |  st7860
join:2004-05-13 San Francisco, CA | for everyone that didn't already know, companies in Canada are able to put their own DSLAMS into Bell's central offices and thus are not REQUIRED in any way to use Bell's backhaul. but teksavvy chooses to operate in that manner. | |
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 |  |  tiger9
join:2005-08-01 Ont,Canada | Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen I'd like to see you afford a co-located DSLAM, though | |
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 |  |  Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19 Montreal, QC
| said by st7860 :for everyone that didn't already know, companies in Canada are able to put their own DSLAMS into Bell's central offices and thus are not REQUIRED in any way to use Bell's backhaul. but teksavvy chooses to operate in that manner. They can't put their own remotes though. There's a lot of places they couldn't service even if they decided to deploy their DSLAMS.
Imo, they should all band up together with a known partner (like Google) and kill Bell's ISP service. It would be well deserved. | |
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 |  st7860
join:2004-05-13 San Francisco, CA
| not sure what you're talking about but i'm pretty sure that anyone is allowed to rent a copper line from bell that goes from the central office to the customer, and so is not required to use any other piece of bell equipment except that piece of bare wire. most of those companies complaining about throttling choose to buy as much from bell as possible instead of the other way around. | |
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 |  |   drjp81
join:2006-01-09 canada
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen I don't know if *you* are aware, but Canadians payed for most of the infrastructure that bell uses through subsidies (reads taxes) so I don't see how we should need to pay twice to get some competition.
Sheesh walk a mile in a man's shoes before you speak.
OK let's see let's try an American solution, throw more money at it...yeah that'll work... -- Cheers!-- I reserve the right to use any private message in these boards if you behave like a horse a$$ in it. | |
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 |  st7860
join:2004-05-13 San Francisco, CA
| since when are CANADIAN companies prohibited from leasing only a piece of bell canada copper? OH! they're not? oh yeah! anyone in Canada can lease bell copper without the requirement to lease bell equipment, bell dslams, and so on. Teksavvy and so on chose to not build their own network. | |
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 |  |   fcisler Premium join:2004-06-14 Riverhead, NY
| Re: Just cuttin out the middlemen I'm not quite sure if you understand what a RT is, and why the above poster mentioned it.
Here's a link to the sites FAQ: »SBC Remote Terminal (RT) FAQ »What is an RT and what does it do?
It's SBC, but a RT is a RT. Guessing by the large geographical size of Canada, I'm sure that there is more than likely several RT's spread throughout. The RT does NOT bring any sort of copper back to a CO. AFAIK, you can't rent space to install your own hardware. Judging by pictures I have seen, they are usually small.
So yes - they could put their own DSLAM into several CO's - but they will be cutting off a significant part of possible subs.
I've also heard rocky mention that something about they would then have to pay some type of tax, because their current situation does not list them as having a "presence" in several areas of Canada. I'm not familiar enough with Canada's tax, but apparently it was a "GST" in Montreal/Quebec that they would then have to pay - IIRC. | |
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  hurleyp
join:2000-06-20 Ottawa, ON | CRTC CRTC = Canadian Roadblock to Telecommunications Competition
The CRTC and the big telcos are in each other's back pockets so why would things be any different? -- "I reject your reality and substitute my own." | |
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  greendragon Premium join:2003-09-20 Stewartville, MN | Biting the hand that feeds you... I agree with the independents.
I don't think it's a good idea for them to piss off the decision makers, " so, unless the decision makers have been bought". -- Folding for our future!! | |
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 |   Mashiki Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04 Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Biting the hand that feeds you... If you're implying the CRTC? It's Liberal dominated, there are a few new Conservative members that have recently gotten posts. The main reason why is the Liberal party held power for so long they could put people literally everywhere and continue to run everything as they see fit despite being 'out' of power in a minority government.
Count on top with Bell, and tossing in the buyout with a dose of Liberal politics. Well...you better bet people are going to bite back. It usually takes a long time for Canadians to get cranky over something, in this case? You bet.
There are a few things you don't play with up here, oddly the internet is becoming one of them. | |
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 |   greendragon Premium join:2003-09-20 Stewartville, MN
| I hear you.
I don't doubt that it happens. There are times when calling people on stuff like that piss them off, like I was talking about. Or if you call them out they could do something different becasue you called them on it.
It isn't normaly a good idea to piss off the big guy, unless you have a whole lot of little guys to back you up (or another big guy). -- Folding for our future!! | |
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 |  bbenso1
join:2004-11-28 Baltimore, MD
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by LiamJunket :So what TekSavvy is fighting for is not that its customers be treated equally with Bell's customers. He wants either a network re-architecture or no throttling of anyone. Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic. Actually, from what I've seen TekSavvy simply wants the ability to offer non-throttled service to his customers, as per the original agreement he had with Bell. I'm guessing he doesn't really care how that happens, so long as it does. Whatever Bell needs to do to provide that service is not his problem. If they want to throttle their own customers they are welcome to do that, but they will have to figure how to do so without impacting their wholesale customers. That's Bells problem to figure out.
said by LiamJunket :And the reason the throttling is done at the local level is not to cause TekSavvy some competitive disadvantage, but because that is where the bottlenecks are. Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling. | |
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 |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by bbenso1 :Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling. The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |   travisc
join:2001-11-09 Port Perry, ON | Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone You're about the only one that seems to disagree... But that's your role on DSLR, isn't it? | |
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 |  |  |   elios
join:2005-11-15 Springfield, MO
·Mediacom
| said by LiamJunket :said by bbenso1 :Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling. The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. then may be i dont know but they should ether A. upgrade there network or b. not sell so much to 3rd partys?
oh wait that would mean spending money or not making as much | |
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 |  |  |  bbenso1
join:2004-11-28 Baltimore, MD
| said by LiamJunket :The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field?
TekSavvy and I both do. How about you? | |
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 |  |  |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by bbenso1 :said by LiamJunket :The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field? TekSavvy and I both do. How about you? I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  bbenso1
join:2004-11-28 Baltimore, MD
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by LiamJunket :I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion. Okay, so given your background, at what level does congestion become 'significant'? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   sporkme drop the crantini and move it, sister Premium,MVM join:2000-07-01 Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| said by LiamJunket :I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion. And if you were doing all that at a high level, then you know that if someone came in and audited your network and all they'd show you was a powerpoint presentation with some very vague numbers in it, you'd likely tell them to please give you the raw data before you drew any conclusions or spent another dime, right? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by sporkme :said by LiamJunket :I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion. And if you were doing all that at a high level, then you know that if someone came in and audited your network and all they'd show you was a powerpoint presentation with some very vague numbers in it, you'd likely tell them to please give you the raw data before you drew any conclusions or spent another dime, right? They were giving data to lawyers at the CRTC - and not engineers. I'll bet the techs got the backup data - but that doesn't make the news. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   DataRiker Premium join:2002-05-19 Metairie, LA clubs:
| said by LiamJunket :said by bbenso1 :said by LiamJunket :The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. You are, of course, free to disagree with anyone's opinion. However, what qualifications do you have to make an educated statement regarding network usage/congestion levels? Do you work or have any training in the network design/maintenance field? TekSavvy and I both do. How about you? I was a system programmer; data communications programmer; network designer(I designed a 23 state network for a major railroad); telecomm/datacomm MGR; telecomm/datacomm Director before I retired. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts and tools that measure network congestion. A: Based on your track record here I absolutely do not believe this. No way no how.
B: You are a fake shill, who has taken it upon himself to argue against all evidence to the contrary that Bell Canada has issues with network congestion even after its own documents tell otherwise. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by DataRiker :A: Based on your track record here I absolutely do not believe this. No way no how. B: You are a fake shill A: Who cares what you believe.
B: Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:
"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.
Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented." | |
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 |  |  |  |   LiamJunket Premium join:2002-03-03 Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone said by adisor19 :Ah yes, must be that obvious evidence that nobody else but Bell and corporate shills like you seem to notice. Adi Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:
"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.
Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented." -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   Froggy
@teksavvy.com
thumbs down from: LiamJunket 
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone It's easy for these Americans to laugh while drinking their beer and reading tidbits of an article then coming up with the conclusion since Canada is an inferior country it must be all the people who live in Canada's fault. | |
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 |  |  |  Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19 Montreal, QC
| said by LiamJunket :said by bbenso1 :Correction - that's where Bell is CLAIMING the bottlenecks are. They have yet to show any documentation proving that there is, in fact, high levels of network congestion that would require throttling. The doc posted here at BBR previously and that I looked at indicates significant congestion. TekSavvy and some others say that level of congestion is not significant. I disagree. Well the data they showed isn't what applies to third parties but I guess you'd be sold on anything... Maybe you should read the other parties submissions and understand the issue at hand before making those comments. | |
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 |  |  |   Froggy
@teksavvy.com
thumbs down from: LiamJunket 
| What shoe crazy? You been eating too many of those flapjack waffles. Out of all the millions who saw and read the document only you have the wrong opinion. Maybe you read the article up-side-down. | |
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 |  Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19 Montreal, QC
| said by LiamJunket :The only problem with TekSavvy's filing is that the result would be that Bell couldn't even throttle its own customers. First of all, the units that provide the backbone and the ISP unit are two separate entities.
Second, Bell was throttling their customers only before spreading it out to independants, so they obviously can just throttle their own customers. And back when they weren't forcing themselves onto competitors, nobody was complaining about throttling. Complaints about throttling only arose because Bell decided everyone had to be throttled to cut off their customers losses to the "unthrottled" competition. | |
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 |  |  |   nekkidtruth You fail at life. Premium join:2002-05-20 London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: TekSavvy wants no throttling of anyone Are you kidding me?
Regardless of whether video over the Internet is on the rise, Bell still has yet to prove the existence of congestion. 2-5% congestion on a network is so ridiculously low it's not even funny. Half of that is probably due to shoddy network maintenance.
I'd ask you to stop posting before you make yourself look like an idiot, but it's too late. Probably a few years too late. -- Weeeeeee | |
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 |  |  |   Matt Quitting Caffeine - Argh Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| said by LiamJunket :said by fatness :said by LiamJunket :Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic. Can you point to credible evidence of this? Bell Canada cannot. If not, why keep repeating it as though it's true? OECD info shows trends on video over internet: » www.oecd.org/dataoecd/32/57/40629067.pdf[att=1] [att=2] » www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/11/39869349.pdf[att=3] IPTV is not internet video. IPTV comes from controlled headend equipment ala U-Verse. It doesn't traverse their transit backbones and the only intercarrier traffic it may generate is the actual channel traffic from the programmer/network. | |
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 |   joako Premium join:2000-09-07 /dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by LiamJunket :The only problem with TekSavvy's filing is that the result would be that Bell couldn't even throttle its own customers. So what TekSavvy is fighting for is not that its customers be treated equally with Bell's customers. He wants either a network re-architecture or no throttling of anyone. Sounds very democratic, but not very practical when networks are being flooded by video traffic. And the reason the throttling is done at the local level is not to cause TekSavvy some competitive disadvantage, but because that is where the bottlenecks are. Bell is throtling the DSL connection between the user and the ISP. If Bell wanted to throttle their own user's internet connections they can certainly do that on the internet (ISP) side of things.
-- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0 | |
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 zalternate
join:2007-02-22 BC
·TELUS
| CRTC = Censorship Did you know that the CRTC does not regulate the internet in Canada? Yet they seem to act like they can actually do something about companies like Bell and Rogers throttling and censoring the internet in Canada. Like Rogers Modifying their DNS servers to redirect users to a new ad's search page.
Try to file a complaint to the CRTC about your internet connection and get a reply of "We do not regulate the internet in Canaduh, so pizz off".
Rogers got rich by censoring American television stations in Canada. Bell gets rich by doing whatever they want.
Canada's Commissioner for complaints of Telecommunication services. A token complaints entity. »www.ccts-cprst.ca/en/ | |
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 |  Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19 Montreal, QC
| Re: CRTC = Censorship said by zalternate :Did you know that the CRTC does not regulate the internet in Canada? Yet they seem to act like they can actually do something about companies like Bell and Rogers throttling and censoring the internet in Canada. Did you know that the CRTC regulates GAS service (3rd party ISPs)? | |
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 carnesr
join:2002-11-16 Sault Ste Marie, ON | get there own network i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P | |
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 |   TI POIL
join:2006-03-05 Toronto, ON | Re: get there own network If it would be that easy it would of been done a long time ago. | |
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 |  Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19 Montreal, QC
| said by carnesr :i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P They don't sell bandwidth to the resellers. They sell last mile access, which is something that was required of them when they asked for deregulation. | |
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 |   nonshill
@bell.ca
| said by carnesr :i think all this resellers should build there own stinking network then do what they want, bell should not be foreced to sell bandwith to someone else to sell cheaper, quit your whining and build your own network :P Holy! What a revolutionary idea. I can't BELIEVE no one else thought of it before you. You, sir, are an ABSOLUTE genius! They should be paying you for such amazing foresight and intellectual superiority.
I feel fortunate just to have read the most enlightened and generous comments ever on the Internet.
My life is now complete. | |
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 HackedServer
join:2008-07-12 Ossineke, MI | Big businesses "Being fair, truthful and transparent is the only way to go going forward."
In the offices they are probably laughing at that comment. Powerful businesses think they rules the world and can following their own rule and morals. | |
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 bobobird
join:2008-06-08 | arrogance history has proven time and again what happens to corp arrogance...
as for bell/rogers/telus - we shall see | |
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  Bellundo
@teksavvy.com | The Last Stand For Canadian Independent ISPs I take it there's an unwritten rule in Canada that you can't ask for compensation. That only applies to all the other countries except Canada. | |
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