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TiVO Planning 'Legal Version of Aereo'

TiVo is cooking up a new, legal version of Aereo after recently acquiring the bankrupt company's brand and assets on the cheap at auction. TiVo spent $1 million for customer rolls and patents back in November, and now says they plan to announced a better, legal version of the service. Details are scarce, but TiVO CEO Tom Rogers suggests that the company is building something they hope will appeal to cable operators:

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TiVo reasons that OTA, combined with broadband-fueled over-the-top services, presents an opportunity to help its cable partners target a small but growing number of cord cutters who are seeking less-expensive video and TV alternatives but who are also willing to create their own bundles.

"The question is, how do you do that?” Tom Rogers, TiVo’s CEO and president, said during an interview last week at the INTX show in Chicago. “To us, the answer is pretty clear — it’s kind of the Aereo model, done legally and better."


There's a few problems with TiVo's plan. One, cable operators aren't eager to embrace any service that's actually disruptive, lest it cannibalize existing pay TV subscribers. Two, Aereo's appeal was largely price; the company offered cheap service by using micro-antennas to skirt copyright law and avoid paying programming fees. Any legal version of Aereo would likely be notably more expensive and rife with broadcaster restrictions.

There's also the fact that by the time TiVo's version of Aereo reaches the market, the Internet video field will be crowded with numerous other competitors like Sling TV, Sony's Playstation Vue, and upcoming TV services from Apple and Verizon. In other words, outside of the brand name -- the new Aereo will look nothing like its historical namesake when more details are unearthed in July.

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Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Don't get to excited about a legal version of AEREO!

With most ISP's introducing CAPS don't plan on streaming to much video without exceeding your data allocation (CAP). $$$$$$
psiu
join:2004-01-20
Farmington, MI

psiu

Member

RIP

I keep the channel dead center on our living room Roku.

A nice reminder of our f'd up corporatocracy we live in today.

And a reminder that I don't need to worry about watching shows from the networks.
tpkatl
join:2009-11-16
Dacula, GA

tpkatl

Member

I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

The networks didn't like the Aereo approach last year. One wonders what magical technology Tivo can come up with that doesn't get them into the same issues that hung Aereo up in court.
clone (banned)
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

clone (banned)

Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by tpkatl:

One wonders what magical technology Tivo can come up with that doesn't get them into the same issues that hung Aereo up in court.

Hint, it's green and they can stuff briefcases or dump trucks full of it to deliver to the networks that they're already in bed with.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

1 recommendation

openbox9 to tpkatl

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to tpkatl
said by tpkatl:

One wonders what magical technology Tivo can come up with that doesn't get them into the same issues that hung Aereo up in court.

Purchasing distribution rights?

camper
just visiting this planet
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join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by openbox9:

Purchasing distribution rights?

 
Why the need to purchase distribution rights? TiVo would not be distributing anything.

TiVo is merely allowing you to view a recording on your DVR.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

No. Tivo would be retransmitting. Did you learn nothing from the Aereo decision?

camper
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Bethel, CT

camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by openbox9:

No. Tivo would be retransmitting. Did you learn nothing from the Aereo decision?

Yes, I learned that re-transmitting is not allowable from the Aereo decision.

However, TiVo is not re-transmitting. TiVo is allowing me to play back a recording from my DVR's disk, exactly as TiVo currently does for the recordings I make from the cable networks. Is the TiVo retransmitting the cable network shows when I stream them from my DVR's disk? The content providers have been OK with TiVo doing so.

While the Supreme Court ruled that Aereo's retransmitting was illegal, the Supreme Court also has ruled that it is allowable for me to record and view my recorded content.

imo, that is the distinction that TiVo may be leveraging, I would not be viewing the live OTA broadcasts (what you call "retransmitting"), I would be viewing a show that has been recorded on my DVR.

No retransmitting is involved.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

Aereo was more than a DVR, as you admit. So, what will Tivo do differently than Aereo? Not follow the same flawed business model of retransmitting without permission.

camper
just visiting this planet
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camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by openbox9:

So, what will Tivo do differently than Aereo?

 
Not allow live streaming of the shows, i.e., only allow streaming shows from the disk on the viewer's DVR.

It was the live viewing ("re-transmitting") aspect that got Aereo into trouble.

Currently I can stream recorded shows from my TiVo DVR, the Supreme Court has ruled that it is legal for me to record and view shows.

Once TiVo removes the "re-transmitting" aspect of what Aereo was doing, then it becomes watching shows I recorded, and that has been ruled legal by the Supreme Court.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

We're not disagreeing.

camper
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camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

 
Where I think TiVo may be skating out onto the thin ice is in the following area:

How long does the show have to reside on my DVR's disk before it is considered to be streaming from the disk and not streaming "live"? Is a two second delay long enough? One? Ten? Two hours? imo, that can be a hazy area...

On the other hand, when I set up remote streaming on my TiVo, I have to certify that only members of my household will be streaming, ~in accordance with the TiVo service agreement~. Also, TiVo doesn't stream content that is marked as not streamable. That may buy TiVo some leeway that Aereo didn't have.

Time will tell how it all plays out.

(btw, good discussion, thx.)

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB to camper

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to camper
said by camper:

TiVo is not re-transmitting. TiVo is allowing me to play back a recording from my DVR's disk


How did the content get onto your DVR's disk? Was not the source a TiVo-Aereo retransmission?

camper
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camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by NOYB:

How did the content get onto your DVR's disk?

 
TiVo sells a unit that has OTA capability via an antenna on my house. I'm thinking this new feature may be some manner of extension of that capability.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB

Premium Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by camper:

TiVo sells a unit that has OTA capability via an antenna on my house. I'm thinking this new feature may be some manner of extension of that capability.


Is that the antenna that is being used though to produce the recording?

camper
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camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by NOYB:

Is that the antenna that is being used though to produce the recording?

 
Why wouldn't it be? The antenna is there, and it is working (why else would you have the OTA TiVo?).

I see what you're asking though, and if TiVo starts using an antenna setup like Aereo's, the ice may be getting thin under TiVo's skates.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out....

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB

Premium Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by camper:

Why wouldn't it be?


Poor reception quality. That was one of the reasons people used Aereo. They couldn't get good reception, or lived in multi-dwelling units where there was no OTA antenna availability.

If they are truly just providing an OTA antenna and DVR then that wouldn't be much different than a SiliconDust network attached tuner with OTA antenna and any one of numerous DVR utilities like Windows Media Center. Or SiliconDust's upcoming NAS based DVR.

Have my doubts that's all that's going on here though. Yes will be interesting to see what it really turns out to be and how it plays out.

camper
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camper to tpkatl

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to tpkatl
said by tpkatl:

The networks didn't like the Aereo approach last year. One wonders what magical technology Tivo can come up with that doesn't get them into the same issues that hung Aereo up in court.

 
TiVo will use the same technology that they use for streaming cable networks - you are not streaming the live program, you are streaming your recording of the program.

When I want to stream a cable program live, the TiVo starts recording that program, and then it streams the recorded version to me, not the live version.

imo, that's how they get around the legal issues. It is OK for me to stream my own recording of the show.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

Thats what Aereo did and the two courts couldn't figure out what was legal--just what wasn't, except that is was bad for someone--namely the consumer. What you are referring to is a retransmission, and to make matters even more laughable that is what cloud DVRs from MSO do and is somehow legal.

At the end of the day, what we are really talking about is passing the envelope around the table, nothing more nothing less. The technology can do this in a nanosecond.

So "legal" in the terms of a content creator means "extortion" with the heavy being the US Copyright courts and with other courts as contributors to the cause.

Now I am not against them making money, but these stations are sitting on top of billions of Americans resources (OTA spectrum) and for getting that for free, the payment is that the owners (namely American's) get something in return for that gift. As yes it is a gift that can be taken back and re-gifted

camper
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camper

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Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

said by elefante72:

Thats what Aereo did ...

 
I was not aware that Aereo had a DVR for each customer.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

I cant remember the packages but there was recording option (DVR capability) with limitation on hours saved. When I tried it, worked reasonably well--but there was buffering-- and it was cloud-based but DVR capability nonetheless. This is somewhat how Comcast newest platforms (X) work today when saving shows in the "cloud".

The trick that MSO have used for some time (after a number of legal disputes) is that while the recording may be deduplicated, the stubs were unique. That way if show Batchelor for example was saved in a market area, it was really stored once, and each individual user has their own stub/metadata pointing to that making that a "unique" recording.

chuch
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL

chuch to camper

Member

to camper
Good point - I always noticed that my TiVO video output on live programming was always a few seconds behind any other TV on the same channel.

caster
@sysvana.com

caster to tpkatl

Anon

to tpkatl
Paying the same fees that the cable co's pay for OTA. Aereo did not need to shutdown just needed to start paying the same fee that cable pays.

andrewc2
join:2011-06-05
Matamoras, PA

andrewc2

Member

Re: I wonder what legal theory Tivo will use...

Aereo tried that when SCOTUS said "no you're a cable company" and the networks wouldn't let them negotiate rates saying "you're not a cable company no lunch for you". So they had no options left.

josephf
join:2009-04-26

josephf

Member

Napster was revived in a legal form...

...after the original Napster was shut down by copyright owners.
snic
join:2009-10-14
usa

snic

Member

Silly

I understood from TiVO's e-mail to Aereo customers that the idea is to combine broadcast channels received via your own antenna with various internet video sources. That's actually NOT what Aereo was about at all. Many people don't get good OTA reception, and Aereo was the obvious solution - one that TiVO is not providing. Their e-mail did not indicate that they plan to provide broadcast channels over the internet some time in the future, either.

camper
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camper

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Re: Silly

said by snic:

I understood from TiVO's e-mail to Aereo customers that the idea is to combine broadcast channels received via your own antenna with various internet video sources. That's actually NOT what Aereo was about at all. ...

 
The combining of OTA with various internet video sources is the marketing pitch for TiVo's OnePass effort.

TiVo looks to be moving their boxes to a streaming-only paradigm, significantly reducing and possibly eliminating the DVR component.

TiVo will be using their OTA box to stream OTA content. TiVo looks to be leaving the DVR functionality in the dust while moving more towards internet streaming and OTA capabilities.

And yes, the TiVo OTA functionality is not the same reception model as Aereo. You are correct to point out that many people do not get good OTA reception. I suspect TiVo will be seliing this service to cord-cutters who do get good OTA reception.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: Silly

The future is in aggregation not OTA. Many of the OTA programs are available through pay channels, the regular guy has not idea of the price or how to get them the most efficiently.

Assume that Tivo uses this aggregation and combines with timeshifting (NOT sling TV), you now have a winner. Add a P2P twist and now you reduce transit load.

Take for instance at the rents house. OTA works for every channel except CBS. Tivo knows this and it aggregates a CBS feed for just the shows the person is interested in, and happily records the OTA content as needed. While CBS may not like this, the user may at a lower cost decide that a one year window is just fine for them. They don't need this year's content now.

Now before you think that is crazy, my kids watch almost zero net new content. They wait until it filters into OTT, even though we HAVE and pay for every channel and my DVR system chops commercials. Why? Because the Netflix interface is vastly superior to any cable box and the kids can also easily fire up said content on their mobile devices. This generation doesn't get the old skool cable monopoly and I am sorry to say will just skip it over. You want to charge me $200, no problem I can fire up Youtube, twitter or snap for a while, game, or share it with my friends for free. They are COOKED if they don't innovate.

We need to stop thinking of OTA as a homogenous package, it's really content that the user is interested in, and OTA is not binary--its a combination of content that the user wants.

camper
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camper

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Re: Silly

said by elefante72:

The future is in aggregation not OTA. ... We need to stop thinking of OTA as a homogenous package, it's really content that the user is interested in,...

 
I agree, and I'm not aware of what I said that disagrees.

One thing I'll add to your comment, OTA is not just the broadcast networks anymore. There are so many sub-channels available that a couple dozen content providers are available where OTA has good reception.
snic
join:2009-10-14
usa

snic to elefante72

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to elefante72
said by elefante72:

This generation doesn't get the old skool cable monopoly and I am glad to say will just skip it over.

FTFY!
07682674 (banned)
join:2015-05-21
Naperville, IL

07682674 (banned) to snic

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to snic
They just bought the company for the name. I doubt if the business is going to be anywhere nearly similar.

pjcamp
@reliablesite.net

-1 recommendation

pjcamp

Anon

Given Tivo's ability to get product out the door

you should see this in about 10 years when broadcast is obsolete. This from someone who soldiered on with an SDTV Tivo while following their product delay announcements for 5 years before finally breaking down and just buying a DirecTV DVR. Tivo is one screwed up company.
clone (banned)
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

clone (banned)

Member

Re: Given Tivo's ability to get product out the door

Their HD units came out in 2007. That's about a year or two after HD started to become mainstream. If you were looking for an HD DVR in 2002 you probably would have had a hard time getting one from any manufacturer.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Tivo's Biggest Problem

Their biggest problem is that they have 1 DVR that is OTA and it is limited to 4 tuners.

Technically they have 2, but they are both only 4 tuners and the lower one you can't get a yearly or lifetime sub on, only play their current ridiculous $15/mth fee.

•••

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium Member
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR

NOYB

Premium Member

They Too...


Unless they are paying retransmission fees, they too will be shutdown.
frank124c
join:2003-12-04
Brooklyn, NY

frank124c

Member

Tivo vs Aereo

I hope Tivo succeeds where Aereo failed. Nonetheless there are many alternatives nowadays including YouTube, Amazon Prime, USTVnow, Netflix, bit torrent and so forth. They can stop one or the other but they cannot put the cat back into the bag.