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TiVO Sues Time Warner Cable, Motorola Over DVR Patents
TiVO's Courtroom Adventure Tour Continues...
Back in January TiVO got AT&T to pay out $215 million for DVR-related patent violations, or roughly $59.72 for each of AT&T's 3.6 million U-Verse TV subscribers. This was after Dish was forced to pay out nearly twice that amount. TiVO's now setting their sights elsewhere, and have sued both Time Warner Cable and Motorola for patent infringement. According to Forbes, there's three patents in question, all covering some facet of time-shifting capabilities.TiVO's also busy cutting prices on TiVO subscriptions in the hopes of appealing to cable customers who are tried of monthly DVR rate hikes like the kind being imposed by Verizon FiOS.
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morbo
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morbo

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Go Go Tivo

As a long time Tivo customer, I'm happy the patent lawsuits are finally paying off. Plus I didn't know they had reduced their monthly fees and released a newer high capacity "base" model of the Premiere.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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KrK

Premium Member

Re: Go Go Tivo

Companies that troll like this and refuse to compete in the market should go out of business. ASAP.

Patent reform now.

Bootes
Premium Member
join:2005-01-28
New York, NY

Bootes

Premium Member

Re: Go Go Tivo

They're not trolling. They're enforcing their patents. They came up with a good idea and the cable companies have been profiting from these ideas without sharing any revenue.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: Go Go Tivo

They got granted patents. That's about all I will say about that.

There were many things that were being developed concurrently by multiple parties, and there were also obvious extensions of existing technologies as well as prior art.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to KrK

MVM

to KrK
said by KrK:

Companies that troll like this and refuse to compete in the market should go out of business. ASAP.

Patent reform now.

I agree with you for patent trolls. But for almost everything that I've read over the years, Tivo is one of the few cases where they have legitimate patents, have successfully implemented their patents, and aren't just using the patents in a defensive manner.

To me, this is how the patent system is suppose to work. And not the scorched earth, patent anything and everything even remotely related or possible with some trivial "invention" and then sue everyone while never even thinking about using the patents in the market.

morbo
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This is not like patenting the double click of a mouse. These are legitimate patent enforcement cases. That is why Dish lost and why AT&T settled. Patent reform wouldn't apply in this case.

Morac
Cat god
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ

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Morac to KrK

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to KrK
said by KrK:

Companies that troll like this and refuse to compete in the market should go out of business. ASAP.

Patent reform now.

Anyone who calls TiVo a patent troll either doesn't understand the meaning of "patent troll" or has never read TiVo's patents (the entirety of the patents, not just summaries).

Without getting into great detail (you can read their patents if you want that), TiVo (and Replay) invented the consumer grade DVR. TiVo's original TiVo DVR ran on a 54 MHz CPU with 16 MB of RAM. Yes the recording and playback was done via hardware (MPEG-2), but TiVo wrote software which broke apart the video and audio streams and tagged them such that they could be indexed using virtually no CPU time.

This allowed simultaneous recording and playback of the same recording (in a different spot) with ridiculously cheap and underpowered hardware. All with enough power to spare to run a GUI and handle conflict scheduling and indexing of guide data.

It might have been possible to buy a DVR before TiVo (and Replay) existed, but you'd pay tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars for it.

I'll also point out that the summary of this article is slightly wrong. TiVo is counter-suing Time Warner and Motorola. TiVo was sued by them first (about a year ago).

KrK
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KrK

Premium Member

Re: Go Go Tivo

Yes, I had a ReplayTV from the beginning. I feel that many parties were working on DVR technology, and some of it seemed like an obvious extension of existing technology (such as the ability to more then one program at once), however Tivo was granted the patents and it became a moot point.

They then began the process of trying to bend over the competition, which continues to this day.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

What a waste of time company now

They can't innovate anymore so they're suing everyone.

Glad I'm not stuffing any more money in their pocket!

aaronwt
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join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

Glad I am. My TiVos save me alot of money over getting the cable company DVRs. I would have paid for the cable company DVRs many times over if I rented from the cable company instead of getting my TiVos with Lifetime service. And I would not own the cable company DVRs like I do with the TiVos.

With the TiVos, when a new model comes out, I sell my lifetime boxes which cover most if not all of the price of the new TiVos with lifetime service. Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by aaronwt:

Glad I am. My TiVos save me alot of money over getting the cable company DVRs. I would have paid for the cable company DVRs many times over if I rented from the cable company instead of getting my TiVos with Lifetime service. And I would not own the cable company DVRs like I do with the TiVos.

With the TiVos, when a new model comes out, I sell my lifetime boxes which cover most if not all of the price of the new TiVos with lifetime service. Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

I agree, Cable company DVRs suck. I was referring to media center which is the cat's meow compared to TiVo.

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

Caddyroger

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

For me the centon 4 tuners cards are worthless. I have one setting on my closet self. It to jerky for me to watch. I am not interested in streaming. I have my tivo set where I can watch it my living room or bedroom.
Time to sell or put the centon in the trash.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by Caddyroger:

For me the centon 4 tuners cards are worthless. I have one setting on my closet self. It to jerky for me to watch. I am not interested in streaming. I have my tivo set where I can watch it my living room or bedroom.
Time to sell or put the centon in the trash.

Not their fault you don't know how to build a properly functioning media center PC... the majority of people have no problems with their setups.

Anyway if you want to send your nonfunctioning card to me, feel free. I can make good use of it.

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

Caddyroger

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by fifty nine:

said by Caddyroger:

For me the centon 4 tuners cards are worthless. I have one setting on my closet self. It to jerky for me to watch. I am not interested in streaming. I have my tivo set where I can watch it my living room or bedroom.
Time to sell or put the centon in the trash.

Not their fault you don't know how to build a properly functioning media center PC... the majority of people have no problems with their setups.

I know what I am doing. You just do not any one talking bad about some thing you like and by that any thing does not work is always their fault.
CTMustang
Premium Member
join:2007-09-10
New Canaan, CT

CTMustang to Caddyroger

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to Caddyroger
said by Caddyroger:

For me the centon 4 tuners cards are worthless. I have one setting on my closet self. It to jerky for me to watch. I am not interested in streaming. I have my tivo set where I can watch it my living room or bedroom.
Time to sell or put the centon in the trash.

You're doing something wrong. What's your HTPC specs....I bet you have an underpowered computer. Mine records 4 streams and plays one back without issue and it's a core2duo 3ghz

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

1 edit

Caddyroger

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by CTMustang:

said by Caddyroger:

For me the centon 4 tuners cards are worthless. I have one setting on my closet self. It to jerky for me to watch. I am not interested in streaming. I have my tivo set where I can watch it my living room or bedroom.
Time to sell or put the centon in the trash.

You're doing something wrong. What's your HTPC specs....I bet you have an underpowered computer. Mine records 4 streams and plays one back without issue and it's a core2duo 3ghz

Here we go again blaming it on one person. If you want to blame any one blame it on dslr people. I gave every one the specs and they said it more then enough to operate correctly. Mine had better specs then some of theirs. We tried different setting on the graphic card. I even got on the forums and some of them had the jerkiness and could not get rid of it. My 4 tuner elite does every thing I need it to do with no jerkiness.
People do not get me wrong people here tries to help other people out but some times I get aggravated when some thing goes wrong they say it your fault.
fiberguy2
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Send it my way.. I could use another card. The three I have running in my MCE 7 system work flawless!
CTMustang
Premium Member
join:2007-09-10
New Canaan, CT

CTMustang

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by fiberguy2:

Send it my way.. I could use another card. The three I have running in my MCE 7 system work flawless!

Same here.

Have it sharing throughout the whole house. No problems.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

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said by aaronwt:

Glad I am. My TiVos save me alot of money over getting the cable company DVRs. I would have paid for the cable company DVRs many times over if I rented from the cable company instead of getting my TiVos with Lifetime service. And I would not own the cable company DVRs like I do with the TiVos.

With the TiVos, when a new model comes out, I sell my lifetime boxes which cover most if not all of the price of the new TiVos with lifetime service. Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

I'm not so sure it's saving you money. Those lifetime subscriptions are awfully expensive (~$500), as is the hardware ($~300). After all that, you're on the hook if the hardware dies on you. It will take over 3 years of paying $20/month for cable DVR to get to that. Then you still need a CableCARD (which on TWC isn't cheap if you need more than one).

Mind you, on cable I understand it's worth it; the cable DVRs suck pretty badly. But DirecTV, Dish, and AT&T all offer pretty good DVR solutions that don't require such a painful investment.

aaronwt
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Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt

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Re: What a waste of time company now

said by djrobx:

said by aaronwt:

Glad I am. My TiVos save me alot of money over getting the cable company DVRs. I would have paid for the cable company DVRs many times over if I rented from the cable company instead of getting my TiVos with Lifetime service. And I would not own the cable company DVRs like I do with the TiVos.

With the TiVos, when a new model comes out, I sell my lifetime boxes which cover most if not all of the price of the new TiVos with lifetime service. Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

I'm not so sure it's saving you money. Those lifetime subscriptions are awfully expensive (~$500), as is the hardware ($~300). After all that, you're on the hook if the hardware dies on you. It will take over 3 years of paying $20/month for cable DVR to get to that. Then you still need a CableCARD (which on TWC isn't cheap if you need more than one).

Mind you, on cable I understand it's worth it; the cable DVRs suck pretty badly. But DirecTV, Dish, and AT&T all offer pretty good DVR solutions that don't require such a painful investment.

my break even point on each box is two years or less Including cable card fees. In 10+ years and over two dozen TiVos, Ive never had one die on me. My lifetime services prices were $200 for each box except for my Elite which was $400. And I sold two lifetime Premieres which more than covered the cost of a lifetime Elite.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

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Time Warner is one of the cheapest providers when it comes to CableCARDs. They only cost $2 a month to rent on TWC now.

Verizon FiOS used to charge $5 a month to rent CableCARDs. I think it's down to $4 now.

I still think a CableCARD tuner with Windows 7 Media Center is an even better interface than AT&T and the satellite companies. TiVo is an adequate expensive alternative for those too incompetent to build their own HTPCs.

When Ceton finishes up and releases their own dedicated DVR unit, the Ceton Q, TiVo is done for. The box is said to be aiming for a reasonable price, won't require a guide subscription, will offer SIX tuners and require only one CableCARD; and will have a 2 TB internal hard drive.

They're also working on a low cost extender box, the Ceton Echo, which will network with the Ceton Q and their PC tuners. Currently the only reasonable Media Center extender is the $200 Xbox 360 so if you want to replace all the set-top boxes in your house with extenders it can indeed get pricy.

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt

Premium Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by 45612019:

Time Warner is one of the cheapest providers when it comes to CableCARDs. They only cost $2 a month to rent on TWC now.

Verizon FiOS used to charge $5 a month to rent CableCARDs. I think it's down to $4 now.

.............

FiOS used to charge $3($2.99) per cable card. I had eight of them at the time. Then they raised the price to $4($3.99) per cable card. Which is where it stands right now.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

Whereas Time Warner lowers prices on CableCARDs Verizon raises them... interesting.

I wonder why they don't all just charge the $5 a month, the max the FCC allows them to charge. I know all the cable companies hate these things. I was quite surprised when Time Warner lowered the monthly fee on them a couple months ago.

RickNY
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join:2000-11-02
Bellport, NY

RickNY

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Re: What a waste of time company now

said by 45612019:

Whereas Time Warner lowers prices on CableCARDs Verizon raises them... interesting.

I wonder why they don't all just charge the $5 a month, the max the FCC allows them to charge. I know all the cable companies hate these things. I was quite surprised when Time Warner lowered the monthly fee on them a couple months ago.

Cablevision also charges $2 per card.. Before they switched to multistream cards, they would charge $2 for each card THEN hit you with a "premium programming fee on add'l outlet" for the 2nd tuner.

Now, its just $2 for one Tivo..

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
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join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

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said by aaronwt:

Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

yeah!
•like recording infomercials you didn't ask for.
•ads when fast forwarding
REKnight0
join:2006-01-12
Bloomingdale, IL

REKnight0

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by dvd536:

said by aaronwt:

Plus the TiVos offer more features than the cable company DVRs.

yeah!
•like recording infomercials you didn't ask for.
•ads when fast forwarding

Do what now?

Oh right... the previews for upcoming show that get downloaded overnight and deleted as needed for if the drive becomes full. You know, the ones that I almost never watch unless I have an interest in knowing more about a new show?

And as for the ads when fast forwarding, It's one extra line above the bar showing me where I am in the show... I actually had to think about if they were even there to reply, mainly because most of the time they're not.

Both features are like the ads in GMail... you almost never notice them, unless they peak your interest. For the service I get from my Tivos compared to abomination Comcast offers as a DVR or the Fisher Price toy AT&T calls a DVR, I'll take the ads.

Oh... and the best part... I don't need Comcast or AT&T to watch shows on my Tivo... I cut the cord YEARS ago. I have better things to do with the $1200+/year I save.
axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

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Member

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Look "fifty nine" I don't usually try to fanboy much but Tivo can not be labeled as not innovating.

Can you name another DVR with the cool applications to manage it or browse the guide with? DirectTV's is the closest one in functionality and it can't do half of what the Tivo app can do with an iPad.

Sorry man, you are just dead wrong.

Whats holding Tivo back is the cable companies.

I think I have some perspective on this too as I also have 2 Ceton Infiniti TV PCI cards in use in Windows Media Centers in my house as well and they make mistakes all the time in recording things where I can always trust my Tivo to stay running and get the job done without fail. And the cable companies DVR.... well that thing is just a joke.

So if Tivo is doing so much wrong why are both Comcast and Time Warner releasing DVR's with Tivo UI on them?

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by axiomatic:

Can you name another DVR with the cool applications to manage it or browse the guide with?

Yes I can, and it's my DVR of choice - Windows Media center.

Can you stream your recordings? Over the internet? At all? TiVo can't (or rather, won't). I can.

How many tuners do you have in your TiVo? I have eight in mine, four OTA four cable (I can get more than four cable tuners if I want, can you?)

No problem with my Ceton InfiniTV at all.

I had four TiVos, all gone except my old series 2 which I can't even sell because TiVo wants a $$#@#*& $12 monthly fee for a $50 dvr.

Multiroom on TiVo is a joke. It won't even work with Time Warner who copy protects all channels, nor will it work with HBO on other providers. This is because TiVo is living in 2002 where they copy recordings instead of streaming them.

Forced yellow star ads on TiVo - what are you paying a monthly fee for again?

Can your TiVo save energy by going to sleep and waking up to record?

I also have 2 Ceton Infiniti TV PCI cards in use in Windows Media Centers in my house as well and they make mistakes all the time in recording things

I think you mean TiVo... as if the stupid suggestions weren't bad enough, they use your hard drive space to record their ads, using your internet bandwidth too.

morbo
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morbo

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Re: What a waste of time company now

said by fifty nine:

Multiroom on TiVo is a joke. It won't even work with Time Warner who copy protects all channels, nor will it work with HBO on other providers. This is because TiVo is living in 2002 where they copy recordings instead of streaming them.

This is incorrect. Tivo Premieres can now stream to other Tivo Premieres in real time. Copy protection is not an issue anymore.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by morbo:

said by fifty nine:

Multiroom on TiVo is a joke. It won't even work with Time Warner who copy protects all channels, nor will it work with HBO on other providers. This is because TiVo is living in 2002 where they copy recordings instead of streaming them.

This is incorrect. Tivo Premieres can now stream to other Tivo Premieres in real time. Copy protection is not an issue anymore.

Yeah, great! TiVo's now caught up to 5 years ago.
34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

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said by fifty nine:

Yes I can, and it's my DVR of choice - Windows Media center.

A MS product... No thanks.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: What a waste of time company now

said by 34764170:

said by fifty nine:

Yes I can, and it's my DVR of choice - Windows Media center.

A MS product... No thanks.

Your choice to judge a book by its cover... media center is far from perfect but it's better than underpowered, overpriced TiVo.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

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to 34764170
Media Center is fantastic, and is a hot deal compared to TiVo if you use XBoxes or want a PC hooked up to your TV for other reasons anyway.

Speaking of MS, what I still don't fully understand is why AT&T was on the hook for TiVo patent infringement when they're running Microsoft's DVR software. If MS sold them DVR software, isn't Microsoft the infringer?
axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

axiomatic to fifty nine

Member

to fifty nine
Sorry man, I have the same set as you do. 2 Ceton cards = 8 tuners and I have all the same stuff set up and the problem is Windows Media Center. It's just not up to the quality that the Tivo software is yet as far as reliability goes.

Don't cite me as the problem either. I'm a MCSE so I really like and support Microsoft products. WMC just isn't there yet for stability. I wish it was though. I agree with you on the cost of Tivo... I can trust the Tivo to record The Walking Dead. I can trust WMC to record BOTH showings of The Walking Dead every night when it shouldn't. Duplicates in WMC are at a ridiculous level right now. Yeah yeah, record by time and not name... thats a band-aid. Tivo never fails.

•••
videobruce
join:2002-05-14
Buffalo, NY

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Member

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Well said.
Can't make money on the product, sue someone.
ADL
join:2000-12-20
USA

ADL

Member

TiVO should focus on partnerships

I always hear people rave about TiVo but their boxes always have less features than the service provider. No multi-room DVR is a non-starter for me at this point.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: TiVO should focus on partnerships

said by ADL:

I always hear people rave about TiVo but their boxes always have less features than the service provider. No multi-room DVR is a non-starter for me at this point.

TiVo multiroom is a joke. Do they still not have streaming? What about lightweight extenders so I don't have to buy a TiVo for each room and rent a CableCARD for each DVR too?

I only need one CableCARD for my entire house. Three XBOX 360s and the main HTPC drive 4 TVs with ease. I only need one CableCARD and I can pause in one room and resume in another.
Taget
join:2004-07-29

Taget

Member

Re: TiVO should focus on partnerships

Multi-room was never a big selling point for me. But premieres in the same house can be anabled to see what is on each other. Until recently you had to download from one tivo to the other to watch programs in different rooms. But they've since enabled multi-room streaming.

An HTPC is a project I'd like to tackle one of these days. But compared to what the cable company offers TIVOs are wonderful. Though it does depend on how friendly the cable/phone company is. Verizon has been great. From what I've heard other companies can make your life miserable.
daake07
join:2011-06-28
Kearney, NE

1 edit

daake07

Member

How is TiVO a value?

I'm not really sure how to play TiVO as a value play. The minimum service is $15/month per device....that's what I pay for a Charter Multiroom DVR. Sure the TiVO might be better than the Charter DVR, but you aren't saving any money. You still have to pay for a CableCard on top of the TiVO service which actually would make this cost more.

My biggest complaint thus far with the Charter Multi-room DVR is that you can't record shows using the second receiver. I have to go record everything off of the main receiver.

I'll stick with my Charter DVR and save my money while I'm at it....its sad to think Charter is actually saving me money on a service.

Edit: Forgot to mention that $15/month for my Charter DVR included the HD Channels which are normally $5/month.
REKnight0
join:2006-01-12
Bloomingdale, IL

REKnight0

Member

Re: How is TiVO a value?

For some people, it may not be...

The best thing for me is that I don't have to pay anymore then $15/month for TV as I get everything over the air, so I save $100+/month on TV service.

In some markets (I thought all, but maybe not) the CableCard wasn't supposed to cost anything. Something to do with an FCC ruling related to the switch from analog to digital cable signals. I know that Comcast is setup that they list a charge for the CableCard, but then a credit for the same cost, so it's a net cost of $0.

I've never used a Charter DVR, so I can't compare it to a Tivo, but I have used Comcast, AT&T U-Verse, Dish, and DirecTV's non-Tivo DVRs... and the Tivo UI and reliability beat all of them hands down for me. DirecTV is actually offering a new Tivo again, so that is saying something in my mind.
majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Medford, NY

majortom1029

Member

tivo still more expensive.

tivo still comes out more expensive then my cablevision dvr which is about $13 a month vs tivos $16 - $17(this includes the cable card rental fee) Most of us just want to record a show we missed. No extra features. I will always go with the cheapest option.
Fast Turtle
join:2008-02-19

Fast Turtle

Member

Re: tivo still more expensive.

This is the only reason I have a DVR from TWC instead of a Tivo. Simply can't justify the cost of a Tivo and don't use it for more then what a VCR could do and with the triple play package, the DVR is almost fee.

RickNY
Premium Member
join:2000-11-02
Bellport, NY

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to majortom1029
said by majortom1029:

tivo still comes out more expensive then my cablevision dvr which is about $13 a month

How is it $13 a month? DVR Service is $10.95 and the box is $7
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Patent Trolls

It's sad that they just turned into patent trolls.

HTPC
@opera-mini.net

HTPC

Anon

Sage TV was the shit

Until Google bought them.

Good thing I have a HTPC for the livingroom and I bought two hd300's for the bedrooms before Google shut them down.

Johnny34
Fed Up. Bye.
Premium Member
join:2001-06-27
Atlanta, GA

Johnny34

Premium Member

Great news

Scrotorola should be sued. Their so-called "DVR" is not only stealing TiVo's invention, it sucks too. Nobody's ever figured out that stupid remote.

Waiting for the price on the quad-tuner TiVo Premiere to drop a bit. Woo-Hoo. Records 4 channels at once. If you need more than 4 at once, there is definitely something wrong with you.

Here's hoping TiVo gets a buttload of settlement money and uses it to produce even better best-of-class DVRs.

I've had all of these Moto and SA off-brand DVRs at one time or another and they all suck, losing your shows and freezing up and everything you can imagine. And the remotes look as if they were designed by a chimpanzee randomly picking features from a list.

When your rental non-TiVo DVR goes south, Comcast just throws the dead one on the truck and rents it to the next sucker. And they are all full of bedbugs from the customers who never paid the second bill.

TiVo has never failed me, through 3-soon-to-be-4 upgrades over the years.

skuv
@rr.com

skuv

Anon

Re: Great news

The price of the 4 tuner TiVo Elite did drop a little bit, just today. Down to $399 from $499.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536

Premium Member

tivos whole business model

is built around suing!
videobruce
join:2002-05-14
Buffalo, NY

videobruce

Member

Simple greed

quote:
They can't innovate anymore so they're suing everyone.
Well said.
Can't make money on the product, sue someone.