TiVo Downplays Threat of Networked DVR As if you expected they'd do anything else? A few years ago, cable operators were very eager to eliminate the DVR, replacing it with a DVR-esque system that would store content at the ISP network head end. Unfortunately, the entertainment industry, fearing a loss of control as usual, took them to court. This resulted in several popular network DVR trials at both Cablevision and Time Warner Cable getting scrapped. But with Cablevision's recent court win on this front it appears the network DVR lives on. For their part, TiVO says they're not worried, and questions whether cable operators have the capacity to make the system a reality: "I think probably the more significant issue from a TiVo point of view is that we don't see this ruling having anything to do with our business relationship with the cable world," said TiVo president and CEO Tom Rogers . . . he did articulate a belief that the cable industry has "total inadequate capacity at this point for broad scale deployment of a network DVR solution," particularly when it comes to the recording and storing of individual HD streams during prime time. That, he said, "is beyond the realm of most cable operators' capacity." TiVO has some cause for optimism -- they're expanding their relationship with Comcast, and the fight between cable and the entertainment industry over the fate of the network DVR could head all the way to the Supreme Court.
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  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | price, usability, features
If a networked DVR offered by cable company competes on 1) price, 2) features, and 3) usability then Tivo is screwed. However, cable dvrs have ONLY competed on monthly price -- and now that has even changed as many dvr offerings are more expensive than a regular Tivo plan.
Conclusion: Tivo lives on | |
|  | | | | | | Re: price, usability, features I rather LAN then use a phone jack that's require which I never do plug my in. | |
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| | | | Pandora, I'd love to know more about this DirecTV service that you described as...
"record streams hosted on an Internet server by DirecTV. You can download content over internet by station, if you subscribe to the station you want to download the content from it is often available to you at no additional cost" Does DirecTV market this under a specific name ? How do you access it ?
You said that you can record streams to your HD DVR, can you also just watch them directly without recording them ? can you watch it at the same time as recording it ?
Is this feature rolled into VoD somehow ?
Sorry for all the questions, but seems like a great service I'd love to know more... | |
| | | | Reviews:
 ·Charter
| Re: price, usability, features said by miar70 :
Pandora, I'd love to know more about this DirecTV service that you described as...
Its called On Demand more info can be had at;
»www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/co···03185800
It also allows you to download PPV and HD content like portions of the Olympics. Its a very nice feature.
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Fed Up With Stupidity?
Patentlystupid.com | |
| | | | | | | Re: price, usability, features Wow that's great, thanks for the link and info rahlquist ! | |
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| | | pandoraPremium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·ooma
·Google Voice
·Future Nine Corp..
·Comcast
| said by miar70 :Pandora, I'd love to know more about this DirecTV service that you described as... "record streams hosted on an Internet server by DirecTV. You can download content over internet by station, if you subscribe to the station you want to download the content from it is often available to you at no additional cost" Does DirecTV market this under a specific name ? How do you access it ? You said that you can record streams to your HD DVR, can you also just watch them directly without recording them ? can you watch it at the same time as recording it ? Is this feature rolled into VoD somehow ? Sorry for all the questions, but seems like a great service I'd love to know more... I think it is marketed as DirecTV on Demand. Each station you'd normally watch over satellite can have an Internet source for content. For example Comedy Central is on channel 249, but Comedy Central DirecTV on Demand is on channel 1249. Similarly the SCI-FI channel is on channel 244, but the SCI-FI DirecTV on Demand is on channel 1244.
Most content is free. Some content is in HD, most is in SD. When I download SD content over Internet, I am able to display it on my set as it is downloaded. My Comcast 6 / 1 Internet connection is faster than the playback. So I am able to view in real time any SD download immediately after selecting it. Only 1 download stream is permitted at a time, though you can queue as many as you want. They will be downloaded in sequence.
With an ESATA cable, you can add a TB drive, and obtain quite a bit of content.
DirecTV on Demand is a work in progress from the perspective of content. It seems as if there is more content every time I look. DirecTV on Demand is a growing service.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." | |
| | | | | | | Re: price, usability, features Great thanks for the update Pandora. I saw in the forums that the 'broadcast networks' are not part of the On Demand, so you can't get ABC, NBC or CBS ? As you say it is very much dependent on what content is available. I'm sure DirecTV is working to add more, but I really like the look of this service and everyone's opinion of it seems very positive. Is there a way to see what TV content they currently have available without a DVR STB ?
Thanks miar | |
| | | | | | pandoraPremium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:1 Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Future Nine Corp..
·Comcast
|  Re: price, usability, features
NBC does offer content. However it is fee content. For example Season 1 and 2 of 30 Rock are available. Each episode costs 99 cents to download in SD, and $1.99 to download in HD. It is so far the only vendor to charge a premium for the HD version.
There was also free Olympic coverage, which provided highlights and was supplementary to the stuff broadcast.
As an example of the type of stuff offered, Comedy Central has a lot of stuff, and a special Daily Show / Colbert Report folder. In this are usually between 6-10 program segments from the two programs. Either highlighting funny skits or interesting interviews done recently. Comedy Central also keeps some South Parks up, in two streams. One seems to be going up by episode number independent of what was aired and is 3-4 episodes long. The other seems to be recently broadcast episodes and is 2-3 episodes long.
Adult Swim has its own channel, and offers a lot of content. Usually several episodes of most programs they air. For example several Aqua Teen Hunger force episodes are up, as are several Robot Chickens. They change the episodes over time.
There is also an Anime channel on DirecTV on Demand which has weird (to me) Japanese Anime which I have not seen broadcast. Some Anime fans may enjoy it.
The Cartoon Network is separate from Adult Swim which is different from the channel. Unfortunately Cartoon Network doesn't yet offer Naruto. Mostly oldies in DirecTV on demand.
CNN has mostly segments, as does the Science channel. The Smithsonian channel has ALL its recent weekly specials up in HD, in fact all Smithsonian content is in HD only.
There are differences apparent in each channel, and also in the choices and management of the channels. It would be nice if DirecTV gave us more insight into how and who manages each channel. Management IS active, and content regularly changes.
Unlike most DirecTV DVR recordings, DirecTV on Demand recordings come with a built in expiration date, and self expire. You can not change the date. After expiration they automatically delete. However you can play them as many times as you want when you have them, and can skip around. Often free content does has one or two commercials in it, usually short 30 second or less commercials. It is often more bother to skip than to just watch.
You can only download content from channels you subscribe to. For example if you can't receive the Smithsonian channel on satellite, you can't download Smithsonian channel content via Internet.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: price, usability, features Thanks for the detailed information Pandora, much appreciated ! How long is the built-in expiration ? Is it triggered from the time you download it or from the time you first watch it ?
Interesting that NBC charge for their shows and Sci-Fi and Discovery do not. I guess the charge is no different to a rental fee.
So if you remember to record it up front on your DVR you can watch it as many times as you like and keep it as long as you want. If you forget to record it up front, you can download it on demand, but will be time limited when you can watch it or have to pay a fee to watch it.
Would be really nice if the DVR figured out that you like a particular show enough to select it On Demand and then pro-actively records the rest of the series for you 
Still this is the best sounding service I have heard of in a while... | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: price, usability, features Excellent ! thanks for all the great info... | |
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| | Why fear? Why would the entertainment industry fear head-end DVRs? To me, that would help the industries desire for control. By putting it in the companies who they have influence over, they get more control of the media and what/howoften the user can watch it. When its user-end storage, they have to now try to enforce a much wider population
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The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. | |
|  DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1 | network controled dvr Lets see, fast forward probably wont work. There will probably be inserted advertisements. Overall its going to lame, and the way comcasts network works now with ondemand. This is no threat. | |
| | | | Re: network controled dvr Don't forget broadcast flags that will restrict recording to the home shopping channel and the fact that networks will also have the ability to delete any recording the day before the dvd comes out. | |
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Reviews:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Not a techical issue storing recordings There are maybe 15-20 channels that people would record and only for 5-6 hrs a day at most - I don't see any problem with any cable operator recording all these channels and then each user "recording" a channel would be given just a "pointer" to the actual recording. Storing 150-200hrs of content a day for 30 days is fairly easy these days. All that a user would need is a box with a disk cache where content would be stored as needed while viewing a recording in order to prevent network congestion. | |
| |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4 | Re: Not a techical issue storing recordings said by cowboyro:There are maybe 15-20 channels that people would record and only for 5-6 hrs a day at most - I don't see any problem with any cable operator recording all these channels and then each user "recording" a channel would be given just a "pointer" to the actual recording. Storing 150-200hrs of content a day for 30 days is fairly easy these days. All that a user would need is a box with a disk cache where content would be stored as needed while viewing a recording in order to prevent network congestion. Tivo says:
quote:
cable industry has "total inadequate capacity at this point for broad scale deployment of a network DVR solution," particularly when it comes to the recording and storing of individual HD streams during prime time. That, he said, "is beyond the realm of most cable operators' capacity."
But I agree with you. Recording and storing the streams is hardly an issue at all. If the cable companies have an issue it is finding enough channels to deliver the content to the STB during playback. Dropping analog channels & starting SDV will help, but delivery is the hard part and not storing content on ultracheap disk subsystems.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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| | Thinking beyond the DVR What TiVo needs to do is think beyond the concept of their box merely being a DVR and focus more on IPTV-type services, whether they are live streams or downloaded content. They've done this to an extent with podcasts and streaming radio, but they need to make a big push into this area. Bring that online content onto the TV screen, and TiVo suddenly can offer more than just recorded programs from what the broadcast networks and cable channels are offering.
I realize that the established entertainment companies won't want to put their content on such a service for fear of hurting their traditional distribution channels, but smaller companies will jump at the chance to reach viewers without having to bend over for the established channels. The quality of the content will be all over the place, but that will make watching interesting, and there's no doubt you'll get a wider variety of things to watch than you would on traditional TV. | |
| | Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
| Re: Thinking beyond the DVR Tivo missed the ball on this one. While they are connected with amazon unbox, they should have taken the netflix/roku project. The tivo already had the hardware and the network connection, they should have just added the ability to pair with netflix. I have a tivo, actually 2, and now i have a roku. Netflix gain, Tivo's loss.
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This Space for Rent... | |
| | |  Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
·Comcast
| Re: Thinking beyond the DVR said by nightdesigns:Tivo missed the ball on this one. While they are connected with amazon unbox, they should have taken the netflix/roku project. The tivo already had the hardware and the network connection, they should have just added the ability to pair with netflix. I have a tivo, actually 2, and now i have a roku. Netflix gain, Tivo's loss. TiVo and Netflix actually signed a partnership back in 2004, but nothing every came about from it because the studios wouldn't let Netflix stream back then so the whole deal kind of died.
So it wasn't TiVo's fault. They tried to do what you suggested but were shut down by the studios. Later after the studios lightened up TiVo went with Amazon. | |
|
 GlobalMindDomino Dude, POWER Systems GuyPremium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL | So let's do the run down.... Yep I'd agree storage isn't really the problem. We sell lots of storage & storage virtualization systems. This isn't the issue. Delivery will be the problem they need to cope with.
In terms of TiVo specifically, the networked DVR won't kill off TiVo unless it offers something better than what TiVo can offer itself. And rest assured that regardless of any ruling against them, cablecos will endeavor to make TiVo's life difficult on their networks.
So let's see:
* Monthly price - this is almost a wash today
* Hardware price - long term I'd suspect a wash also but haven't done the math on that, initial sticker shock on TiVo will send some folks to Cable DVR.
* HD support...cable has the upper hand here in my view. TiVo needs cablecards, and we've seen the problems with those. Unless they can handle HD output from the STB into TiVo with no fidelity loss cable wins on this one.
Mux in the SDV issue with cablecard and there you have it.
* Ease of use - TiVo generally wins here. At least on Comcast (I have both a Comcast DVR and TiVo) the DVR interface sucks wind. It is slow and feature poor. TiVo Software on a Comcast Moto DVR was supposed to be coming but honestly I won't hold my breath since it's only been in a couple areas.
* Customer flexibility - TiVo customers have more choice on what they do with the content they record. Hollywood hates this. Cable does too. Add on remote scheduling and all the other extras and TiVo wins here. However, if cable would say add remote scheduling (entirely possible I'd think) and some sort of Slingbox functionality to a head-end DVR and I think they've got a good product. But of course the interface has to be there too.
At least those are my points. Those customers with SDef TiVos who can get HD cable STBs see the difference and might go to a HD DVR cable box. If they try to go to TiVo HD they face potential (not always) cablecard issues.
They're on a knife edge I think, and should have looked to sfw licensing a long time ago. Thing is it would also be feature stripped from what we know & love on TiVo today. I also agree TiVo should also be looking at more networked technology if they intend to stick around much longer.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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|  DataDocMy avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink
| So if I record "We're no Angels*" in June, they'll keep it until I want to watch it in December? And I'll be able to collect an entire season of shows and do a marathon weekend watch? No, of course not. They'll delete them when they want/are told to.
But, since I can use their storage plus my TiVo, I'm all for it.
*The original version, not that DeNiro/Penn crap.
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Death is my bread and danger my butter. Oh, no, danger's my bread, and death is my butter. No, no, wait. Danger's my bread, death- no, death is- no, I'm sorry. Death is my- death and danger are my various breads and various butters. | |
| | GlobalMindDomino Dude, POWER Systems GuyPremium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL | Re: So if I record "We're no Angels*" in June, they'll keep it said by DataDoc:until I want to watch it in December? And I'll be able to collect an entire season of shows and do a marathon weekend watch? No, of course not. They'll delete them when they want/are told to. Good point, should have thought of that for my post. You know dang well you won't be able to keep those recordings too long. | |
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 JRW2R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, Max and Zen.Premium
join:2004-12-20
La La Land
kudos:5
·Optimum Online
|  It's NOT going to work...
While they can treat each recording for storage purposes quite well, considering they only need one copy of the program to serve their entire client base.
How are they going to handle fifty or sixty people trying to pause, rewind, or fast forward the same program without blowing out their available bandwidth?
If they issue some type of set top box to "buffer" the program, how can this be cost effective then?
As I see it, for each unique program that is stored, they are essentially going to need to dedicate a "channel" to each program to effectively handle the numerous possible requests they get. Not everyone is going to be watching last nights episode of "24" at the same time, nor on the same day.
While many people only watch about fifteen channels, not everyone watches the same fifteen, so in essence they have to plan to record all of the channels, all day, even if one one person is ultimately going to be watching it.
This can turn into quite a storage issue for them.
I don't see how this will be better, ultimately, than having your own set top DVR...
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! | |
| | Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: It's NOT going to work... said by JRW2:How are they going to handle fifty or sixty people trying to pause, rewind, or fast forward the same program without blowing out their available bandwidth? If they issue some type of set top box to "buffer" the program, how can this be cost effective then? Storage is cheap... flash cards sell for 4GB@$10... Just buffer a good chunk of the show...
Hell this whole network DVR could enable viewers to watch a show they missed and didn't even record... | |
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| | Cancel CableTV Did you see www.thewb.com launched.
Now when you want via the net and for free you can watch tons of free legal content through wb, www.hulu.com , www.abc.com (sucky interface needs tons of work) and joost (needs to be in the browser... users dont care about P2P).
Forget cable TV it's out dated....Tivo should build the web into it's product. | |
| | DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
1 edit | Re: Cancel CableTV i dont understand either why tivo, doesnt add apps for hulu, and abc, etc. They would bypass cable completely, which for the networks would be a good deal. | |
|
 NOCManMacChatterPremium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO | Nothing to fear Networked DVR's require extensive resources and network buildout if this ever became popular.
It would be cheaper to buy all the customers Tivo's rather than build out the network to support streaming all that TV down to customers.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
| | | | Re: Nothing to fear said by NOCMan:Networked DVR's require extensive resources and network buildout if this ever became popular. It would be cheaper to buy all the customers Tivo's rather than build out the network to support streaming all that TV down to customers. Cable companies stream everything to customers already. What build outs would they need?
They already have the QAMs to put the channels on. The Network DVR would just operate the same as VOD does now. A group of centralized servers with all of the recorded video, video is streamed to GQAMs and the video is put on a digital channel and sent over RF down to the customer's cable box.
The only changes they'll need to make are already being made with SDV. SDV frees up channels, and they'll need more channels so more people can watch their DVR'd shows at the same time. | |
| | | JRW2R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, Max and Zen.Premium
join:2004-12-20
La La Land
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Nothing to fear said by nukscull :
The only changes they'll need to make are already being made with SDV. SDV frees up channels, and they'll need more channels so more people can watch their DVR'd shows at the same time.
Yeah, right..
Until 10000+ people are trying to watch "24", some pausing it to take a leak, some hitting rewind, some fast forwarding...
Do you really think they can properly handle 10000 simultaneous streams???
They can't effectively show the hundreds of channels they offer now without SDV, how is this going to improve with the advent of a network DVR???
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! | |
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| | If the current interface is any indication... then how responsive do you think the GUI will be for this and the load times as my experience in Los Angeles is that it is dogged gone erratic. Sometimes it will work flawlessly, then change the channel once more, and then the HD DVR unit becomes unresponsive for a few seconds while it downloads the info, I think. If they want people to use the bandwidth they offer, then I'd rather TW just keep the current infrastructure now (ie. local DVR) and give us more HD channels!!! | |
| | | We need home networked DRV systems with 1 big box and mini b We need home networked DRV systems with 1 big box and mini box on each tv.
The cable co need this they can just put more shows on VOD to get the same thing. | |
|  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | NO fast forward FORGET IT!
time shifting can be done with a VCR.
i dont care if it was free. no FF / no way!
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
| wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·T-Mobile US
| Not much of a threat.. No threat that I can see, so long as they don't fix the same problem they have with VOD in general. If they let you fast forward or rewind, it takes what seems like an eternity for the server to respond to your commands.
Maybe I expect too much, what with wanting technology to respond as fast as my 8088 did when running Lotus 1-2-3 and Wordstar.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
| | | | Re: Not much of a threat.. My original question was How do you delete recorded programs fro your DVR on comcast box | |
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