 KeysCaptPremium,Ex-Mod 2002-13 join:2001-07-11 Keys Exile kudos:1 | Absurdity still reigns Nice to know, or better yet to have it demonstrated so aptly for us, that absurdity is still alive and well in corporate America. That it took forty minutes rather than forty seconds to rectify this is further testament to the lack of intelligence in accounting and customer "service". Human error indeed. Error resulting in sudden unemployment would be a better response. | |
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 |  CheesePremium join:2003-10-26 Naples, FL kudos:1 | Re: Absurdity still reigns said by KeysCapt:Nice to know, or better yet to have it demonstrated so aptly for us, that absurdity is still alive and well in corporate America. That it took forty minutes rather than forty seconds to rectify this is further testament to the lack of intelligence in accounting and customer "service". Human error indeed. Error resulting in sudden unemployment would be a better response. The fact they actually tried to charge his card in the first place is 100 percent absurd! | |
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·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Absurdity still reigns said by Cheese:The fact they actually tried to charge his card in the first place is 100 percent absurd! It's not absurd at all. The charge is not done manually for each customer... the billing software does it, likely in batch at the end of the day. | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: Absurdity still reigns It is absurd, the software should have checks built in to prevent this kind of charge and send it to a human to verify. Anything over $800 for a residential customer should raise all kinds of red flags. | |
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 |  |  |  |  CheesePremium join:2003-10-26 Naples, FL kudos:1 | Re: Absurdity still reigns said by flashcore:It is absurd, the software should have checks built in to prevent this kind of charge and send it to a human to verify. Anything over $800 for a residential customer should raise all kinds of red flags. Exactly | |
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 |  |  |  |  tshirtPremium,MVM join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA kudos:3 | And now they know. | |
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·Armstrong Zoom ..
| Agree. A residential bill of more than $300 should be looked at by a human before being sent to a credit card (not the same one that made the error though). Even a person with great credit does not usually buy a new home with a credit card so how is it that the system would even allow for such a thing.
What makes me wonder though is how is it human error? Customer service reps are usually not paid well (it is an entry level job) and the requirements are maybe a pulse. So the order entry into the system should have some checks and balances.
What I fail to understand is how it was a mistake so high? Entering an order for a service is a number value or probably a drop down window. So how is it the CSR was able to charge more than one "March Madness's" or even bill for that much?
Humans make errors and in this case it was both software development and a CSR. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Absurdity still reigns I used to work at Comcast and even if you gave someone the complete works they could not rack up a bill like this .
and by complete works I mean a triple play with 50mbit internet, phone with international calling packages, every single channel and sports package and multiple HD-DVRs.
Something went Fubar here even beyond the human layer. Even a sports bar could not rack up a cable bill that high. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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 |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Boy... you guys sure are quick to be outraged and horrified by errors.
Time Warner corrected the problem. They don't write the software in their billing system.. companies like CSG do. In fact, they don't make the programming, they don't make the boxes, the guide software, etc.
Taking 40 minutes to correct the problem is nothing for a case like this. I doubt many CSR's have the credit ability of 16 million - think about it. I'm sure that it took a few shocked employees to even figure out how to get this corrected. I REALLY doubt any CSR, supervisor, or even department manager had ever seen a 16 million dollar charge on an account much less knew just how to tackle the problem right away. Also, I'm really sure that none of the employees had ever doubted that this was an error - rather that it just took a little time to correct it.
It's not "absurd".. I'm sure as the article stated, the sub was joking and laughing at this as were employees. But, here you and others are feeling "absurd" emotions over this.
I'm sure that this issue will get escalated and checks will get put in place.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. And, I'm sure that the credit card company would NEVER had even authorized the charge either. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  birdfeedrPremium,MVM join:2001-08-11 Warwick, RI kudos:8 | Re: Absurdity still reigns said by fiberguy:Taking 40 minutes to correct the problem is nothing for a case like this. I think most of the 40 minutes was spent in
"OMG everybody, take a look at this. The BOFH has really outdone himself this time. Is this a record?"
"Ooh, let me see that."
"Don't fix it yet, go get Katie. She'll never believe it if she doesn't see it."
Don't know how long it took for Katie to come back from her break. But this is a reasonable scenario to factor in.
Then they had to get the supervisor with the override code. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Re: Absurdity still reigns said by fatness:said by fiberguy:I'm sure that this issue will get escalated and checks will get put in place. Why weren't they in place already? You're jumping to conclusions on what ultimately is a sound-bite article.
No one here on this site knows the exact cause of what happened. Why is it that Windows doesn't already have build in measures to prevent crashes? Why isn't it that many systems don't already have measures in place to prevent any kind of mistake? ... because some of them, like many things, could very well be a bug or glitch. The fact that there was a cable bill in the million-dollar range to begin with says that this is not something of the ordinary. I know, as some others do, that it's damn near impossible to even generate a bill this high..
So like I said, it's hard to know what exactly was the cause of this because no technical reason has been given; only a lot of assumptions are being made.
So to answer your question.. who knows, because we are human beings are not capable of knowing about every single possible thing that can go wrong... but, if they handle this issue the same as the NTSB does with plane crashes, then I'm sure this won't be able to happen again.
So far, no one was harmed in anyway.. nothing more than a bill that I'm sure he's going to hold on to for the rest of his life and have some great conversations about it. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Re: Absurdity still reigns Well, enjoy being outraged.
No - you do not know the whole story.. no matter what you've posted, and I read it.. you don't know the whole story. ANYONE that works or has ever had a real job in IT, will understand what I just said. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  wierdo join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK | said by fiberguy:No one here on this site knows the exact cause of what happened. Why is it that Windows doesn't already have build in measures to prevent crashes? Why isn't it that many systems don't already have measures in place to prevent any kind of mistake? ... because some of them, like many things, could very well be a bug or glitch. Most companies (at least ones who have been in business a long time) have exception reports that run to alert humans of crazy things like this before doing silly things like rejecting a check unpaid or sending out a bill for $16 million.
This isn't exactly something that hasn't been standard since the 60s. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | I doubt many CSR's have the credit ability of 16 million If the CSR software has sanity checks, why doesn't the billing software have sanity checks? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | >I'm sure that it took a few shocked employees to even figure out I think that's the problem, I'm sure no one along the line was -actually- shocked. There is a monstrous disparity in service when the CSR feels either of the following:
1) "$16 million bill...HAH, that is so funny...I guess someone will have to fix that..."
2) "Oh man, $16 million bill, the customer is going to be upset that our billing system is so far off and we can't figure out how not to do this to someone...now they have to waste their time by calling in to ask us to fix it."
I wouldn't have called. I would have paid whatever I normally pay and waited to see what happened the following month. If they didn't call me, or corrected it themselves, I would have carried on doing so. Any given company is responsible for their billing system retardations, not me. What year are we in...Idiocracy circa 2500? | |
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 |  |  |  fatnesssubtleJanitor join:2000-11-17 fishing kudos:14 Host: Bright House Netwo.. TekSavvy Forum Feature Requ.. Need Site Help Rants, Raves, and ..
| said by cowboyro:said by Cheese:The fact they actually tried to charge his card in the first place is 100 percent absurd! It's not absurd at all. The charge is not done manually for each customer... the billing software does it, likely in batch at the end of the day. The billing software does not accidentally try to credit someone's account with $16 million, because there are checks within the software to prevent it from doing so. Billing $16 million is equally preventable in the same manner. -- I don't have a problem! | |
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 |  |  | | said by Cheese:said by KeysCapt:Nice to know, or better yet to have it demonstrated so aptly for us, that absurdity is still alive and well in corporate America. That it took forty minutes rather than forty seconds to rectify this is further testament to the lack of intelligence in accounting and customer "service". Human error indeed. Error resulting in sudden unemployment would be a better response. The fact they actually tried to charge his card in the first place is 100 percent absurd! I'm surprised his credit card company just let the charge go thru, then they can charge an over the limit fee and charging the interest the moment the charge appeared. | |
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 |  BoogeymanDrive it like you stole itPremium join:2002-12-17 Seward, AK | I take it that you've never worked in any customer service field before. It likely took 40 minutes for them to kick it up the chain/find out who could reverse the charges. Over certain amounts need authorization. The fact that it only took 40 min is actually amazing. When I worked CS, anything over $50 was automatically sent to our supervisor, anything over $300 was sent to their supervisor, anything over $500 was sent to the call center manager, anything over that was sent to regional.. and so on. So if you happen to call after 5pm local, it will likely be a day or two before the person with authorization to reverse the charges is available to do so.
Do you really think they give people that answer the phones making min wage the ability to remove $16m worth of charges? I doubt the software can even handle that many digits. -- Im Your Boogeyman, Thats What I Am | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Absurdity still reigns said by Boogeyman:I take it that you've never worked in any customer service field before. It likely took 40 minutes for them to kick it up the chain/find out who could reverse the charges. Over certain amounts need authorization. The fact that it only took 40 min is actually amazing. When I worked CS, anything over $50 was automatically sent to our supervisor, anything over $300 was sent to their supervisor, anything over $500 was sent to the call center manager, anything over that was sent to regional.. and so on. So if you happen to call after 5pm local, it will likely be a day or two before the person with authorization to reverse the charges is available to do so.
Do you really think they give people that answer the phones making min wage the ability to remove $16m worth of charges? I doubt the software can even handle that many digits. You mean there are supervisors there when people call and CSR reps say they are all either on break or on another call.
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 |  | | said by KeysCapt:Nice to know, or better yet to have it demonstrated so aptly for us, that absurdity is still alive and well in corporate America. That it took forty minutes rather than forty seconds to rectify this is further testament to the lack of intelligence in accounting and customer "service". The customer service must have been outsourced to Mexico, and they thought it was *pesos* instead of dollars... LOL | |
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 |  | | I agree, gee let me look up a $16M billing discrepancy in my customer service binder. What a joke! Goes to show you that what is on the screen is considered written word. I say hack the system, hey your 'screen' says I don't owe shit  | |
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 LinklistPremium join:2002-03-03 Longport, NJ kudos:5 | Poor billing system programming
Don't the people who put out the design requirements for the programmers who code these billing systems include any commonsense checks in to their designs. Such an amount should not even have let the program bill such an amount without kicking off a manual, human review of the charge. There should be automatic review processes built in to any billing system. -- Record your speedtest.net results in DSLReports SpeedWave »www.speedtest.net/wave/afe201cb84d45c88 | |
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 |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Poor billing system programming said by Linklist:Don't the people who put out the design requirements for the programmers who code these billing systems include any commonsense checks in to their designs. Such an amount should not even have let the program bill such an amount without kicking off a manual, human review of the charge. There should be automatic review processes built in to any billing system. Not to disagree with what you are saying here, but there should also be a regularly scheduled and OBSERVED responsibility for upper management to audit what the call center employees and the software itself are doing on a very frequent basis. PR disaster mistakes like this can be eliminated when those with the authority are working to prevent the inevitable fire drill that happens as a result.
There is no excuse for apathy in technical and customer support as it is the single most important priority in a healthy business relationship. The most frustrating part is that companies have to go through serious stress before they acknowledge this fact until the next round of cost cutting that always seems to center around reducing support resources.
Aggressive, relentless customer support actually brings the company money through referrals and factors favorably in customer loyalty and forgiveness for other things that may happen along the line. If they know you are squarely behind them, they will come to you in the good times and stay with you through the bad. -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Poor billing system programming I wouldn't exactly call this a PR disaster. This isn't like a $10,000 3G roaming bill like AT&T actually tries to make customers pay because they really did rack up the charges. Or it's not like Comcast trying to get someone to pay for 3 missing cable boxes because a tornado destroyed their house.
This is a mistake that was corrected with a 40 minute call to customer service and they never tried to claim that the man actually owed $16 million. | |
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 |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Poor billing system programming said by nukscull :I wouldn't exactly call this a PR disaster. This isn't like a $10,000 3G roaming bill like AT&T actually tries to make customers pay because they really did rack up the charges. Or it's not like Comcast trying to get someone to pay for 3 missing cable boxes because a tornado destroyed their house.
This is a mistake that was corrected with a 40 minute call to customer service and they never tried to claim that the man actually owed $16 million. Contrary to some beliefs, all news is not good news. Though I agree this was cleared up quickly, it happened in the first place and as the old saying goes - one screwup kills 1000 "atta-boys".
The point I am trying to make here is that commitment to a program of aggressive and effective customer support depends on the credibility of the company and its services by its customers. News like this sheds doubt on the competency of the company's employees, policies, and backend resources; eroding that trust for no reason and only ends up making the company look foolish as it opens itself to ridicule. -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
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 |  |  |  | | if you read the terms of service for comcast or any company service you see what it covers on stolen or damage equipment but then no one ever reads anything before they signup pity save alot misunderstanding. And its true there are few supervisors for anywhere from 50-300 csr in callcenter at any given time yes they are there to help, but can only do multi task so much lol. I seen acct where the guy vod for porn as much as 500 to 1,000 on accts i always thinking get a hooker or record few not like its real story lmao its be cheaper............. | |
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 |  |  |  |  WhatNowPremium join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC | Re: Poor billing system programming All the execs have cell telephones. When the CC authorization failed the problem should have been handled before the customer ever had to call or see the bill. If the bill had been $160 for a $16 package or what ever the cost for the package was I could see it going through. I sounds like he got the bill for every subscriber in that batch of orders. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  cramer join:2007-04-10 Raleigh, NC kudos:7 | Re: Poor billing system programming What part of "automated system" can't you grasp? The CC failure was in an automatic payment system. It gets marked just like the thousands of other CC payments that fail every day. It doesn't make any special case out of any of them.
If it's like Citi, their "exception" is to block the card until the cardholder calls about it. (odd charges, bounced mail, whatever... the default is "lock the card" until you call them. That's the only point where a person is ever aware of the exception -- i.e. when the CSR pulls up your account and sees why the block was set.) | |
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 |  patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | said by Linklist:Don't the people who put out the design requirements for the programmers who code these billing systems include any commonsense checks in to their designs. Such an amount should not even have let the program bill such an amount without kicking off a manual, human review of the charge. There should be automatic review processes built in to any billing system. The billing system is probably older than 1/2 the programmers working on it. Still written in Fortran running on an IBM mainframe. The billing system hasn't been rebooted in 30 years (although every hardware component has been hot swapped in that time). | |
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 |  |  cramer join:2007-04-10 Raleigh, NC kudos:7 | Re: Poor billing system programming I don't know about the FORTRAN bit, but it'd be a pretty safe bet it's running on an AS400. (that's as close to a "mainframe" as you get these days.)
All the screams for "sanity checks" in the software... face it, there's going to be shit that happens that was not foreseen and coded for. We cannot write a program to be a human. (yet) And if we did, it'd be HUGE and SLOW as all crap. (It took years to build Watson, and it's still quite bad at all but a small set of situations.) The final sanity check is *you* reading the damned bill *before* it gets paid. | |
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 |  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | said by patcat88:said by Linklist:Don't the people who put out the design requirements for the programmers who code these billing systems include any commonsense checks in to their designs. Such an amount should not even have let the program bill such an amount without kicking off a manual, human review of the charge. There should be automatic review processes built in to any billing system. The billing system is probably older than 1/2 the programmers working on it. Still written in Fortran running on an IBM mainframe. The billing system hasn't been rebooted in 30 years (although every hardware component has been hot swapped in that time). I bet this covers the billing software in 98% of the entire corporate world. They will not upgrade because migration and licensing are extremely costly. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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 |  |  | | My guess is the billing program was written in COBOL, and one would have to get someone out of retirement to fix it. That might be impossible.
There are many FORTRAN programmers available who are theoretical chemists. | |
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 |  |  |  cramer join:2007-04-10 Raleigh, NC kudos:7 | Re: Poor billing system programming Even NASA stopped using FORTAN. (note: I used to be a FORTAN lab instructor... I pushed for years to get that requirement replaced with C++, which it was, but then 2 years later they made it "java", *sigh*)
There are "young" COBOL aware people. I used to work with one -- he's in his 30's now. (and refuses to even talk about COBOL.) | |
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 |  |  | | said by patcat88:The billing system is probably older than 1/2 the programmers working on it. Still written in Fortran running on an IBM mainframe. The billing system hasn't been rebooted in 30 years (although every hardware component has been hot swapped in that time). If it was 30 years ago it was likely PL/I or COBOL. Both have features for dealing with currency and text information (name, address, service descriptions) that don't exist in Fortran. As the name suggests, Fortran (formula translation) is really for numerical computation, not billing software. | |
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 cobo6 join:2002-02-18 Willingboro, NJ | credit for 16 million I wish they would credit my account for 16 million but i am sure they would find that mistake in a day. | |
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 pokesphIt Is Almost FastPremium join:2001-06-25 Sacramento, CA kudos:1 | charged his card.. Luckily he didn't have a high-limit AmEx plat card.. | |
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 |  See 11 replies to this post |
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 HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium join:2000-09-20 Phone Room kudos:2 | Maybe, just maybe... TWC was testing out the new 'per bit' billing. | |
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 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Re: Maybe, just maybe... said by Harddrive:TWC was testing out the new 'per bit' billing. Sounds about what they're hoping for with usage based billing. | |
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 MerinXCrunching for CuresPremium join:2011-02-03 kudos:1 | Moral of the story Showtime has good shows! MMMMM dexter/weeds/tara/Californication etc. Pretty much better tv then all major networks combined. | |
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 glinc join:2009-04-07 New York, NY | lol I would've sue them back for "almost provoking heart attack and causing emotional disorder". | |
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 sabersawPremium join:2001-08-21 Dayton, OH kudos:1 | Fellow Gem city.... Ha, just read this after a failed attempt of canceling my TW service. Did they happen to print my PIN number somewhere in the 16 million dollar bill? Cause I could sure use it. | |
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 | | Geez Oh come on, just suck it up and pay the bill! | |
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 | | Just tell them.... You are a Man in Black and it was the aliens who were watching all that tv....  | |
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 | | Auto Billpay Another reason not to use auto-billpay. | |
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 |  See 10 replies to this post |
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 | | My cable co did something similar But not 16 million.
I made a payment for $100 and instead they applied $400 to the account, and billed that from my credit card. They could have reversed the charge but instead my account had a credit balance for a couple of months until they caught up.
I'm never paying by phone ever again. | |
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 slimtim join:2002-12-12 Coldwater, MI | Other news...TW has to restate their profits for the Quarter TW profits drop due to crediting a fellow back $16 Million....
-TimJ | |
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 | | some free stuff If I was working for TWC and have the power do to so, I would have given the customer FREE March Madness for the next 5 years...or FREE cable for one year, or something along these lines. | |
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 Reviews:
·Hargray Cable
| Computer programing Back in the dark ages when I learned to program we put limits or some sort of checks into programs to stop or inform us of numbers that are way out of whack. I guess they don't do that any more???
Strangely I bet they check for errors to the low side of billing. Think he would have ever been sent a bill for 16 cents?? | |
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 |  | | Re: Computer programing said by Corehhi:Back in the dark ages when I learned to program we put limits or some sort of checks into programs to stop or inform us of numbers that are way out of whack. I guess they don't do that any more??? Nope, billing programs are all maintained offshore to spec. No common sense allowed. | |
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 | | caps.... coming to a bill near you soon lol | |
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 firefoxPremium join:2000-12-03 San Jose, CA | Absolutely genius! I wish I was the lucky sob that came up with the idea to "accidentally" charge a few customers large amounts of money or lots of customers small amounts of money - interest free to boot.  | |
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 ericn32mehPremium join:2009-09-23 Costa Mesa, CA | Software bug Maybe the billing software ate a bad floating-point number. That's probably the best explanation, and the most plausible one thus far. | |
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 | | Billing errors Looks like TWC uses the same billing software Ameritech used. | |
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