Two ISPs In A Market Does Not Mean There's Competition 78% of Americans live in duopoly markets. Guess why prices are high? Updated with comment from FCC below. When the appointment was announced, consumer advocates had some questions over whether new Democratic FCC Commissioner Mignon Clyburn was going to be another in a long-line of baby bell pushover Commissioners. But since starting her tenure at the FCC, she's actually shown herself to be both tough and savvy to the ways of the telecom sector. She's recently done things like pointing out the hypocrisy of minority ant-net-neutrality astroturf (try asking Joe Public what that is), hammering Verizon for high ETFs and their phantom $1.99 fee, and most recently criticizing the sector's lack of competition and high prices (pdf). Clyburn is planning to continue her criticism of high prices and limited competition when she appears this week before the House Energy & Commerce Committee. While her full testimony is not yet publicly available, a leaked copy obtained by cable operator trade mags indicates that Clyburn plans to highlight recent Time Warner Cable comments that the company raises broadband prices simply because they can. While honest discourse on the real state of competition is refreshing, Clyburn seems to be confused about what actually constitutes "competition": FCC Commissioner Mignon Clyburn plans to tell the House Energy & Commerce Committee that the national broadband plan should make sure there are least two broadband offerings in every market to insure (sic) price and speed competition. That is according to a copy of her prepared written testimony. "Competition is the lifeblood of investment, innovation, and affordable prices," she tells the committee, adding that absent that competition, cable operators and others have no incentive to improve their service or facilities. But assuming FCC data is right (and that's never a given given the agency has spent a decade using junk science), the agency's recent broadband plan noted that 78% of the public already has the choice of two providers. Of course a duopoly doesn't mean there's competition. In duopoly markets, massive phone and cable incumbents essentially stare at each other waiting for the next opportunity to raise broadband or TV prices, jack up ETFs, or impose the latest absurd fee. Sure, you'll see some competition on things like channel counts, but this "competition" is usually based largely on superficial perceptions of value, not price. Carriers also lag on network upgrades if their sole competitor agrees an area isn't worth upgrading. For example, ask Time Warner Cable when they plan to upgrade markets like Binghamton or Rochester, New York -- where the only competition for the next five years (or more) will be last-generation DSL (Verizon and Frontier, respectively). Given Verizon is putting FiOS deployment on hold, and most other telcos plan on nursing copper for the next decade -- there's tens of millions of people living markets who won't be seeing next-generation broadband any time soon. Of course for all of Clyburn's concerns, the FCC's broadband plan really doesn't address the problems created by these broadband duopolies. Much like they did with broadband over powerlines, some at the FCC are apparently hoping that fourth-generation wireless broadband steps in and magically creates extra layers of competition. Of course that extra layer of competition will be very expensive service, dominated by these same regional mono(duo)polies, which means it won't really be competition at all. Update: Clyburn's advisor Rick Kaplan reaches out to us to note that the original trade magazine interpretation took some liberties with Clyburn's statement, which thankfully doesn't naturally equate two carriers with robust competition. "Commissioner Clyburn is not suggesting that the presence of two providers automatically makes competition robust," he says. "Rather, she is merely pointing out that when there is only one, even cable execs have said they wont roll out new technologies." Here's her complete statement: "Competition is the lifeblood of investment, innovation, and affordable prices. Without it, industry has little reason to upgrade its facilities and improve its services. A cable industry executive recently noted as much, informing investors that there is simply no need for the company to roll out the faster Internet speeds available today in areas where it does not have competition from another high-speed provider. Thus, only in those areas where Americans are lucky enough to have more than one provider with truly high-speed capability will providers like this one have any economic incentive to offer better service.
And the same goes for prices. There is little question that where there is limited or no competition, consumers pay higher prices for broadband. Indeed, just recently we saw a new spike in prices levied by providers on the lowest tiers of service. When these across-the-board increases occur, our role as stewards of the public interest requires us to examine the market carefully and take appropriate action where necessary." It's refreshing to see a Commissioner understand that the majority of the problems in this sector stem from a lack of substantive competition. Cure competition, and you organically resolve a lot of other issues (network neutrality, predator pricing) without the need for additional regulation.
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 BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Bull Only 5% have no broadband? Try multiplying that by 4. | |
|  |  GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 Reviews:
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| Re: Bull said by BF69:Only 5% have no broadband? Try multiplying that by 4. The graph clearly says "wireline providers", not including wireless and satellite. -- My Blog 2.0 | |
|  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Bull said by Gbcue:said by BF69:Only 5% have no broadband? Try multiplying that by 4. The graph clearly says "wireline providers", not including wireless and satellite. Yes which makes my point even more. There is more than 5% that do not have internet. | |
|  |  |  |  GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 Reviews:
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| Re: Bull said by BF69:said by Gbcue:said by BF69:Only 5% have no broadband? Try multiplying that by 4. The graph clearly says "wireline providers", not including wireless and satellite. Yes which makes my point even more. There is more than 5% that do not have internet. I'm saying that there is only 5% without a wireline provider.
Doesn't take into account others with *no* wireline provider at all. Probably accounts for a higher percentage. -- My Blog 2.0 | |
|  |  |  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Bull said by Gbcue:I'm saying that there is only 5% without a wireline provider. Doesn't take into account others with *no* wireline provider at all. Probably accounts for a higher percentage. when you can translate into something coherent let me know. I have no clue to what you are referring to. The pie chart clearly says 5% have no access to broadband and that's incorrect it's closer to 20%. Not sure which part of that is hard for you to understand. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Bull Some of the overestimation in the chart may be due to the limitations in using Census Tract based subscribership data to estimate availability of broadband, because Tracts are very large in rural areas.
But the FCC and others have used a wide variety of data sets to put the availability percentage somewhere between 92 and 95 percent. Now this might float lower if the standard for "broadband" is raised to something that many of us around here would agree with.
But I am curious, where are you getting the 20 percent figure? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  | | I don't expect an answer but I will try anyways....
Show us the data from your research that shows 20%. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  BloodRosesAeolus, your daughter flies.Premium join:2003-03-17 Louisville, KY | Re: Bull said by battleop:I don't expect an answer but I will try anyways.... Show us the data from your research that shows 20%. I would say even 20% is a gross underestimate. I've heard numbers that are much higher, for example: »www.internetforeveryone.org/americaoffline -- Фея благословення, Стефанія | |
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| said by Gbcue:I'm saying that there is only 5% without a wireline provider. Doesn't take into account others with *no* wireline provider at all. Probably accounts for a higher percentage. 5% without a wireline provider; but dont take into account those without a wireline provider.
Wait what?
While I'm not so sure about the 5% without broadband thing. Define broadband is moreso the question. People who can obtain 1mbit speeds sure the hell isnt broadband. Though at the same time. People who live in rural areas shouldnt be necessarily considered tbh. They shouldnt have much competition at all in their market by definition.
How many people are below a reasonable level of internet speed while being in an urban area where there's absolutely no excuse for having nothing but the latest and greatest? I dont know exactly. The statistics are next to impossible to generate.
This is where the FCC && CRTC fails utterly. In markets where you are lucky to get 2-3 options for your ISP. 1 dominates almost certainly. If they are dominating. They arent going to roll out new tech to win the customers that dont exist. The competition doesnt roll out new tech because it's not cost effective to roll out for only a couple customers. You then have basically the last 10 years where no improvements on networks have happened.
You either have to accept the fact and call them a common carrier. Enforce the rules based on that... or you have to spend tons of time setting regulations. If you set regulations...
You have to come at this with an iron fist. The hardware per customer is expensive. Rolling the hardware to customer who could ditch in 1 year is bad. Which is why we need to absolutely share lines. Everyone and everyone can access the local loop in an entirely unbundled way. This also means the entire network colocation ability. Allowing competitors to build an offshoot whereever they like.
Anywhere there is no competition happening where the market is cutthroat. You set the pricing that may happen. Hell you can have 3 big isps offering or more. Yet have no competition. Setting price controls on that to keep the absolutely bear minimum is essential.
Soon as ISPs see that they cant be anti-competitive. Things improve. -- -- if (value == 0) return value; else return 0; | |
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 |  |  | | No satellite OR wireless? Well, that puts me in the ZERO COVERAGE area. I was being generous and assuming they were counting wireless. | |
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| Personally I don't believe any of the data is right in terms of competition, because nobody has gone into the field to personally verify it, and surveys have been limited in scope. We should know more in a year or two after the 2010 Census and more data collection -- but I'm willing to bet that both the 78% (2 providers) and 5% (no providers) figures are very optimistic.
Maybe by the time we actually get around to mapping broadband those figures will be correct, though.  | |
|  |  |  iansltx join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO kudos:2 | Re: Bull Uhh, how will the Census help? Just filled out my part of the form (got a few roommates) and there was nothing on there about broadband that I saw. | |
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| Re: Bull said by iansltx:Uhh, how will the Census help? Just filled out my part of the form (got a few roommates) and there was nothing on there about broadband that I saw. Really? I haven't filled mine out yet. Under the recent broadband mapping law passed by Congress there was supposed to be. | |
|  |  |  |  |  zed260Premium join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN kudos:1 Reviews:
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| Re: Bull said by Karl Bode:said by iansltx:Uhh, how will the Census help? Just filled out my part of the form (got a few roommates) and there was nothing on there about broadband that I saw. Really? I haven't filled mine out yet. Under the recent broadband mapping law passed by Congress there was supposed to be. »www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.pdf
is the census form most ppl get as for the mapping law passed no mention anywhere in that law about census | |
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| Re: Bull said by zed260:said by Karl Bode:said by iansltx:Uhh, how will the Census help? Just filled out my part of the form (got a few roommates) and there was nothing on there about broadband that I saw. Really? I haven't filled mine out yet. Under the recent broadband mapping law passed by Congress there was supposed to be. » www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.pdfis the census form most ppl get as for the mapping law passed no mention anywhere in that law about census Yup, that's it. just filled mine out yesterday. Not the slightest hint of kilobits or internet anywhere. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Bull said by praetoralpha:Yup, that's it. just filled mine out yesterday. Not the slightest hint of kilobits or internet anywhere. What about pipes? Did they mention pipes? | |
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 |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 1 edit | said by Karl Bode:said by iansltx:Uhh, how will the Census help? Just filled out my part of the form (got a few roommates) and there was nothing on there about broadband that I saw. Really? I haven't filled mine out yet. Under the recent broadband mapping law passed by Congress there was supposed to be. The 10 question std Census form has no broadband questions. The much longer American Community Survey, and which by law you MUST answer if you get one, is spread out over 10 yrs worth of collecting data will have those questions. But that form is NOT sent to everyone. It uses statistical sampling survey methods to get its data. -- NCAA® March Madness on Demand® | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Bull But which by the Constitution you do NOT have to answer. I only answer the question about how many people live in my place. That's it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Bull said by apple4ever:But which by the Constitution you do NOT have to answer. I only answer the question about how many people live in my place. That's it. Well, good luck with that, because you would have to have the money to fight all the way to the Supreme Court. Until then the courts will uphold fines by the Census Bureau for not answering. -- NCAA® March Madness on Demand® | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Bull Do you have case law supporting this? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:1 Reviews:
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| Re: Bull said by Skippy25:Do you have case law supporting this? Will US Code do?
said by UsConstitution.net :There are fines for non-response and for false response as well, though the amount has risen from the 1790's $20. Today failure to respond can result in a $100 fine; providing false answers is a more severe offense, and carries a $500 fine. Recent news reports, however, indicate that punishment for failure to respond is not usually enforced. The controlling section of the Code is 13 USC 221. NV -- In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people. I call it the Crapture. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  mnt join:2004-10-03 Baldwin, AL Reviews:
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| The penalty for not answering a question on the census is $100. »people.howstuffworks.com/question345.htm. There's also the cost of looking like a doofus for making a big deal over something like the census, which does nothing but help make sure you get your fair share of representation. | |
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| said by Romney2012:said by apple4ever:But which by the Constitution you do NOT have to answer. I only answer the question about how many people live in my place. That's it. Well, good luck with that, because you would have to have the money to fight all the way to the Supreme Court. Until then the courts will uphold fines by the Census Bureau for not answering. No such thing. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  | | said by apple4ever:But which by the Constitution you do NOT have to answer. I only answer the question about how many people live in my place. That's it. I am fairly familiar with the US constitution and I never saw anywhere that citizens are exempt from taking it. (Maybe under certain circumstances but that is something different)
I could be wrong though, if so, please state the amendment or Article/section where it states that the census is optional. | |
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 |  |  cacoPremium join:2005-03-10 Whittier, AK | 78% number might be fairly acccurate considering population centers. | |
|  |  |  | | I would believe 78% had a duopoly on the delivery method (Coax vs. Twisted Pair) but not from providers. | |
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 axus join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC | Works for government, right? Democrats vs. Republicans, plenty of competition leading to innovation, right? | |
|  |  io chicoPremium join:2003-12-30 Magalia, CA | Re: Works for government, right? Ouch, that hit very hard. The only thing worse than a two party gov't is a one party... | |
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| Re: Works for government, right? said by io chico:Ouch, that hit very hard. The only thing worse than a two party gov't is a one party... Yah, because we tried that to see if its worse? | |
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 koitsuPremium,MVM join:2002-07-16 Mountain View, CA kudos:14 | Minimum of two? But two is all we can comprehend... FCC Commissioner Mignon Clyburn plans to tell the House Energy & Commerce Committee that the national broadband plan should make sure there are least two broadband offerings in every market to insure (sic) price and speed competition. So we end up with a Republican ISP, a Democrat ISP... and a bunch of random Independent ISPs, right? Because more than 2 wouldn't be the American Way(tm)! -- Making life hard for others since 1977. I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer. | |
|  |  axus join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC | Re: Minimum of two? But two is all we can comprehend... ha, we posted at the same second ;p | |
|  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | said by koitsu:FCC Commissioner Mignon Clyburn plans to tell the House Energy & Commerce Committee that the national broadband plan should make sure there are least two broadband offerings in every market to insure (sic) price and speed competition. So we end up with a Republican ISP, a Democrat ISP... and a bunch of random Independent ISPs, right? Because more than 2 wouldn't be the American Way(tm)! And 1/3 of Americans would say they prefer an independant ISP but most of them end up actually chosing either the republican or democrat ISP, because they are stupid that way. | |
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 CivrockPremium join:2005-06-25 North Wilkesboro, NC 1 edit | Cable Speeds vs DSL Speeds => Competition? Only one high-speed internet provider where I live, Charter, and then there's also CenturyLink's DSL (formerly known as Embarq here) which offers speeds nowhere near Cable, meaning there's effectively no competition. I wonder if that graph takes such cases into account...?  | |
|  |  See 8 replies to this post | |
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| 1 server 2 rule them all Prices are high because while there maybe two high speed internet providers, there is only 1 of each class.... ie... 1 cable, 1 phone. DSL has its advantages over cable, but cable also has its advantages over DSL.
So Comcast does not feel in some ways it need to compete with Verizon DSL and Verizon feels no need to compete with Comcast Cable.
Also often they maybe both in the same town, but one side of town may not be able to get DSL or Cable, so those people only have one to pick from, but of paper (first glance) it looks like the town has two.
There is of course the idea that a large area will be provided by two providers, but a small town within the mix may not... The FCC samples that small area and overlooks the small town (thus again on paper it look good , but we know better).
This of course does not leave out to the smaller provider's who really "resell" from the bigger company (DSL or Cable) and of course "normally" when you buy from a reseller, its going to cost you a little more. They do not always get a discount, just because they are buying in bulk.
Then we take into account all those "fees" which get added on at their own desire. 1.99 here another 3.50 there and all given the excuse that it's to make up some kind of cost of service.
Although the report did cover a little of Dish Internet... Many consumer's would not really count that as high speed. But rather 56k v2 (maybe 256k or 500k... been told if you're lucky it can be 1mb). But of course The FCC will claim that these people are on "high speed" and thus have another option.
The problem is that "on paper" it looks good, but they can put anything they want "on paper" and call it gold. The consumer knows and often suffers from the truth. -- I often find it complexing that people feel that you've reached a level of maturity and responsibility if you can accept being riped off or taken advantage of for someone else's gain or enjoyment
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|  |  2 edits | Re: 1 server 2 rule them all I live in an area that has 2 cable companies (along with U-Verse). But it's not a true competition. Cable America uses Charter's lines. Charter offers 60 meg while Cable America has 5.2/512 for the cost of Charter's 25/3 service.
I wonder how many of that 78% has that as their two providers. | |
|  |  iansltx join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO kudos:2 Reviews:
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| Technically 99% of the US has at least two high speed options: WildBlue and HughesNet. You *can* get advertised speeds during non-peak times with these services (1.5/256 with WB on the highest tier, 1.6/300 on HN I think...higher if you pay a LOT of money). However the cap/FAP is rather ridiculous (though with such slow speeds most satellite users don't get near it).
There are also 3G providers, but they don't really market their service to home users (yay 5GB cap).
So you're left with cable, DSL, 4G and independent fixed wireless (SkyBeam/Digis is probably the largest provider in this area at this point). Between one and four of these options may not be reliable or available in your area. Fun times. | |
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 VanPremium join:2009-07-08 New Orleans, LA | I understand what you are saying but for many like myself in the past....having 2 major choices would be an upgrade
I just moved because I was stuck with Verizon DSL or....well, thats it outside of Sat. internet | |
|  | | Worse than 78 percent 78% may have just two, but according to that chart, another 13% have only one, and 5% have none. That's 96% in a duopoly or worse.
However, the FCC botched the analysis yet again. This came from their recently collected Census Tract subscribership data, which in rural areas, is too geographically large to accurately portray the level of deployment.
But that aside, for some odd reason, they excluded fixed wireless, when doing so wouldn't have made much of a difference. They also excluded CLECs. A more honest analysis of this subscribership (not availability) data would have looked at marketshare or market concentration. Such an analysis would have better portrayed the breadth of the duopoly problem. | |
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2 edits | Re: Worse than 78 percent Zip code surveys are not a good, complete picture.
I have found the FCC numbers at broadbandcensus.com »broadbandcensus.com/zipcodes/states to be wrong on the # of available providers for many towns in my area. They don't even list my town of 20,000 population.
A residence-by-residence complete survey would open everyone's eyes. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Worse than 78 percent Bob, thank you for posting the link to the zipcode lists. According to the FCC, there are EIGHT providers. Eight? EIGHT!?? They are smoking crack. And heroin. And something else I haven't figured out yet.
My parents are in town and have cable internet. Verizon came through with cable a couple of years ago, but that's IT. I did notice the disclaimer of "The Broadband Census has not found any providers in 49240 in Grass Lake, MI. But because the Federal Communications Commission has found multiple providers, broadband is almost certainly available in 49240."
Eight? I can't believe I'm reading that right.  | |
|  |  |  | | Of course ZIP code data is garbage. But that isn't what this data is based on. It's Census Tracts, which are improvements on granularity over ZIPs in urban areas, but worse in rural areas.
But the problem you identify is in counting the number of providers in a tract/ZIP. This is problematic, and it is not what this data is supposed to be used for, yet the FCC still does it.
They've got a pending proposal to collect actual availability at the Census Block level, which is an appropriate granular size in both rural and urban areas. NTIA's maps that are in progress are based on blocks. Yes, address-by-address is the optimal size, but the truth is that all availability maps are created based not on actual knowledge, but engineering assumptions. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: Worse than 78 percent I believe you're right. I'm actually much further from Grass Lake proper than my parents, but they're in a different zip code.
I dislike the use of government-required forms to pull information they're not authorized to collect, but I really wish this had been on the official census. It would've saved money in the data collection, too. | |
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 espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
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| Government Motors Building a bunch of crap that people aren't buying is the reason US taxpayers are now proud owners of GM.
Given Verizon is putting FiOS deployment on hold, and most other telcos plan on nursing copper for the next decade -- there's tens of millions of people living markets who won't be seeing next-generation broadband any time soon. Verizon spent billions rolling out FiOS infrastructure to reach an adoption rate of under 30%. Considering the vast majority of that < 30% were already Verizon DSL subscribers, that's not really encouraging at all.
I would expect to see the LECs and MSOs to continue to restrict upgrades in areas where people subscribe to only the bare minimum services. | |
|  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Government Motors said by espaeth:Building a bunch of crap that people aren't buying is the reason US taxpayers are now proud owners of GM. You point would be better if GM sales weren't up dramtically and Toyotas didn't have an issue with stopping. | |
|  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
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| Re: Government Motors said by BF69:said by espaeth:Building a bunch of crap that people aren't buying is the reason US taxpayers are now proud owners of GM. You point would be better if GM sales weren't up dramtically and Toyotas didn't have an issue with stopping. Toyota still got the majority of your tax dollars under the Cash for Clunkers program.
»money.cnn.com/2009/08/17/autos/c···ndex.htm | |
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 woody7Premium join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA | hmm..... I live in Torrance,CA, we have Verizon, Att, and RoadRunner, on paper that looks like competition, but in reality with which most of us live in we don't . One part of Torrance is served by Verizon, and the other part by Att, and RoadRunner for cable. I live in Att country, and not Verizon, and don't want Road runner. Att has uverse, but no time line when turning on. I can't get verizon period, or I would. Have Dish for TV, HD whole nine yards and am happy. I just want faster internet than DSL, and Roadrunner wants you to do the package deal.So more than one offering in an area doesn't necessarily translate to competition. -- BlooMe | |
|  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Duopoly does not insure competition One only has to look back at the heyday of the "Big Three" automakers in Detroit prior to serious competition from Europe and Japan to see oligopolies do not foster innovation or competition. When their are only a few mature players each is more concerned with maintaining market status-quo then gaining market share because they all know serious competition will negatively impact profitability.
We see the same dynamic playing out in broadband. Two players serving an area are advantageous at first but over time the market stabilizes between the players, assuming reasonably similar products. At that point neither has any hope of dominating the market so there is little incentive to engage in aggressive competition.
What is overlooked in these analysis is that competition really only exists during a portion of a markets life cycle. 1) Early on there is one or at most a few bleeding edge players pioneering the market. Prices are high and players are trying to fill unmet market niches. 2) Assuming the market is large enough it stabilizes with many players. Competition is high and very effective at driving innovation and keeping prices low. 3) As the market matures many players drop out, or in cases like wired broadband due to very high barriers to entry there were few players to begin with. The survivors have little incentive to drive innovation or pricing.
We need to stop deluding ourselves that broadband is a truly competitive market like toothpaste or automobiles. It is a utility like: electricity, telephone, water, sewer, roads, police and fire.
/tom | |
|  | | Broadband Census results I blew my stack at the mythical "eight providers" list the census coughed up so I took their test. Here's the results:
Thank you for taking the Broadband Census. Your input is appreciated. It will help educate broadband consumers all over the country.
Promised Downstream Speeds: 3 Mbps
Actual Downstream Speeds: 0.60071 Mbps
Promised Upstream Speeds: NA
Actual Upstream Speeds: 0.339 Mbps
Go to your ZIP code: 49240
Eight providers. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. | |
|  cptmilesPremium join:2004-04-22 Swayzee, IN | No Real Solution If Internet is going to be treated as utility, which has been alluded in previous posts, then the government needs to bring back the monopolistic mentalities associated with utilities. Even in states that have electric competition there is only one plant and the competition is in the product delivered over that plant or as a resell.
So, FCC, competition doesn't work for the last mile model. A tier 1 city can barely support one fiber network let alone two or three or more. Transitioning to a single company last mile transport model (tapped by the FCC) with equal access to all carriers looking to compete in a specific exchange is the only way to bring true competition and the speeds we all want. I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not.
My perfect world would be a single company in every exchange responsible to deliver 100M by 2020 and 1G by 2030 to every single residential and business in the U.S. with open access to ALL certified carriers with equal pricing, which is where the competition belongs.
Let's take it a step further and not only force ATT and Comcast (as examples) to work together to build one fiber plant, but then throw the local electric utility in the mix. That solves the smart grid problem then too.
This is not going to happen so I can wish all I want, right. | |
|  | | Problem is local governments They have established local cable monopolies preventing others from coming in.
As always, the problem is TOO much government regulation, not that is is too little. | |
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| issues about competition we still have a market with at least two telco carriers selling POTS over copper and fiber wires which cannot compete on price with VOIP. this alone creates a problem for which there is an obvious solution: kill pots once and for all.
the government gave verizon billions of tax dollars and sweet deals to avoid reselling service to be considered a monopoly incumbent but then to have them turn around a sell off millions of customers and offload billions in debt load just to upgrade their wireless network seems very bad behavior which could only be matched by Comcast's end-run around regulation to install caps & throttling for internet access thus by default creating a walled garden around their video content.
sooner or later the fcc/ftc in cooperation with state public utility commission(s) will have to regulate just how these companies offer access,to whom and to a lesser extent the prices they can charge. the carrots are all but eaten up and we as consumers have gotten screwed for it! there won't be anything left but the stick.. which is regulation
just as insurance companies are going to have to be price regulated if the working poor are going to be able to afford MANDATED health insurance in 2014.
all of those quality of life things that the republicans left to chance are going to have to be remedied or else we'll have a country in anarchy with poor people rioting and looting the rich one day. the longer this country waits to fix the big problems the more difficult & painful they'll be to fix. | |
|  beaups join:2003-08-11 Hilliard, OH | How many providers do you need before we call it competition Per the commentary, 2 isn't enough. How many is enough? My address can get 3, maybe 4 different wired providers. The speed/costs aren't really any different than most users report elsewhere.
So clearly 4 isn't enough. How many? 8? 10?
Maybe if too many players enter a market costs actually RISE due to each provider getting a low sign-up rate versus all the homes the service passes...making the buildout and maintenance of the network rise disproportionally to revenues.
I know I wouldn't enter any business in a market that was saturated with competitors, but then I'm not a consumerist. | |
|  |  MashikiBalking The Enemy's Plans join:2002-02-04 Woodstock, ON | Re: How many providers do you need before we call it competition 6 is a general rule for competition providing that they're both working at it. But the more carriers you have the greater variety thus more competition. | |
|  |  1 edit | You live in Hilliard (Columbus, Oh West side) and have 4 providers? So, at&t/Ameritech, TWC, WOW?, and who else?
I didn't think Comcast or whoever owns the East side of Columbus goes over there. | |
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 COMMANPlug Me In join:2000-07-17 Mount Juliet, TN Reviews:
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·AT&T Southeast
·Vonage
·Cox HSI
| A case of free market NOT working.... Quote: tmc8080
sooner or later the fcc/ftc in cooperation with state public utility commission(s) will have to regulate just how these companies offer access,to whom and to a lesser extent the prices they can charge. the carrots are all but eaten up and we as consumers have gotten screwed for it! there won't be anything left but the stick.. which is regulation
all of those quality of life things that the republicans left to chance are going to have to be remedied or else we'll have a country in anarchy with poor people rioting and looting the rich one day. the longer this country waits to fix the big problems the more difficult & painful they'll be to fix.
As a true conservative I seldom agree with more regulation, but in this case it is absolutely necessary. A perfect example of how this could work is the electric system in this part of Tennessee; electricity is bought from the TVA and resold/distributed by a co-operative. A non-profit enterprise, charging only enough to cover power line maintenance and build-out, returning any excess to the customers. A co-op approach to the "last mile" situation would take taxes and govt. funds out of the equation, allow serious competition in the choice of ISP/TV/TELCO providers, and provide incentive for fiber or hybrid build-out into even more rural areas.
The current telcos and cablecos have been given a nearly "competition free zone" to work in that does not exist in any other American business model. Though we didn't see it at the time, cable franchise agreements and govt. subsidized copper lines were a giveaway that should never have occurred, and just as tmc8080 said above, the longer we wait to fix the problem the harder and more painful it will be. Government has to mandate a better solution to today's "one wire" delivery system, applying to ALL of the country, or the haves/have-nots separation is only going to get worse, at a time when our nation's economy cannot afford it.
An affordable broadband plan, made available to every citizen, is just as important today as nationwide phone service was when we undertook that program. There ARE solutions to this problem, but only if we draw a line in the sand between the special interest groups (with the deep pockets) and our political leaders. -- Broadcasting TO the people, FOR the people, BY the people - INTERNET RADIO! | |
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·Frontier Communi..
1 edit | Re: A case of free market NOT working.... And, Here's a case of the Free Market Working . . .
A small town family-owned telco replacing POTS w/fiber with their own money(no federal subsidy), Southeast Nebraska Communications (SNC) of Falls City, Nebraska(population 4,671). Estimated cost is $8-10 Million
»stopthecap.com/2010/03/18/mom-po···-afford/
The question to ask then is, "How does this small family-owned telco do this, when the big guys can't?" I believe that the answer to that question would be extremely useful for all. | |
|  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: A case of free market NOT working.... said by Bob61571:I believe that the answer to that question would be extremely useful for all. Because they are beholden to the need to always drive Stock value up. Small private company. Building assets builds wealth. No Wall St Stock Jocks to impress. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 QLR join:2009-06-23 Tallahassee, FL | Tired of only having up to 2 providers ... and to boot, I am trading $50 partners. Leaving $51 Centurylink due to low speeds and switching to $50 Comcast (after the 6 month promo)  | |
|  Core0000Premium join:2008-05-04 Somerset, KY Reviews:
·New Wave Communi..
1 edit | FCC I don't want to hear someone, from the FCC, preaching competition.
The Federal Government has the biggest monopoly of all... they don't have a clue what competition is....
I know... I just wanted to say it.
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|  jaaPremium,MVM join:2000-06-13 kudos:2 Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| No competition?? That is bull There is pretty fierce competition between Cablevision and FiOS - competition on price, internet speed, and channels.
The ony problem is the limited overlap between Cablevision and FiOS - Most Verizion customers can't get FiOS, and DSL is a joke of a competitor. -- NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists. | |
|  calvoiper join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Duopolies are wonderful.... Why, I remember the pre-PCS days when there were only two cellular providers in each market. (And, of course, one was affiliated with the wireline provider....)
Yeah, the phones were clunky, but it was only $30 a month for service!
Of course, there was that pesky 20 cents per minute for airtime after the first 25 minutes each month; and the per-minute long distance charges; and the roaming fees; and the extra charge for "follow me roaming" to direct incoming calls....
And it was so easy to compare services, because the rates of the two providers almost exactly mirrored each other!
Boy, those were the good old duopoly days!
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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