UK ISP: You Can't Stop The PiratesSo you'd better start giving them alternatives... 08:41AM Wednesday Jun 10 2009 by Karl Bodetags: business · alternatives · contentCharles Dunstone, the boss of Carphone Warehouse and its TalkTalk ISP has been opposing the entertainment industry's "three strikes" initiative in the UK, arguing that ISPs should not be forced into the role of propping up the music and film industries failing business models or playing content nanny. Dunstone's back against this week with a missive warning the entertainment industry that they're simply not going to win in the cat and mouse game of piracy, and that efforts to stop file trading are "naive." If you try speed humps or disconnections for peer-to-peer, people will simply either disguise their traffic or share the content another way. It is a game of Tom and Jerry and you will never catch the mouse. The mouse always wins in this battle and we need to be careful that politicians do not get talked into putting legislation in place that, in the end, ends up looking stupid.... Instead, Dunstone argues the answer is creating services that allow consumers "to get content easily and cheaply," something the entertainment industry has repeatedly failed at.
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| Re: wow said by moby866  :Until I can download a HD (1080P) copy of a movie and not worry about getting a stupid letter and have to go to court, and not have to pay $89.99 for a 1/2 hour rental of a 3 hour long flick, they are going to continue to not get any money from me. Yeah well with caps you're not going to download to many 1080p movies even if they offered them. | |
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El Quintron
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join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
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| Why bother? quote:
ISPs should not be forced into the role of propping up the music and film industries failing business models
No truer words were ever said. It's not the ISP's job to protect these guys from bad business decisions.
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| Re: Why bother? said by El Quintron : quote:
ISPs should not be forced into the role of propping up the music and film industries failing business models
No truer words were ever said. It's not the ISP's job to protect these guys from bad business decisions. I wonder if his attitude would be the same if "the pirates" figured out a way to steal service from his ISP?
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Skype
| Re: Why bother? said by moby866 :Already been done. Exactly. Broadband ISPs have been combating theft of service forever.
To TK: The cable companies don't ask the phone companies to disconnect telephone service from customers who don't pay their cable bill. Why then should the entertainment companies expect the ISP to disconnect their own problem consumers?
As for three-strikes, it's too severe. We don't take away someone's drivers license without due process, we ought not take away Internet access with any less scrutiny.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| said by TKJunkMail :said by El Quintron : quote:
ISPs should not be forced into the role of propping up the music and film industries failing business models
No truer words were ever said. It's not the ISP's job to protect these guys from bad business decisions. I wonder if his attitude would be the same if "the pirates" figured out a way to steal service from his ISP? 
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My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it. He said, If I have a chance to invade if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it.I'm going to get everything passed that I want.
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Why bother? Oh HELL YES!
See, this is what the "Theif" and "Stealing" people cannot grasp - if it were possible to make an exact copy of a Ferrari, they would be doing it themselves! 
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Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| Re: Why bother? said by dadkins :Oh HELL YES! See, this is what the "Theif" and "Stealing" people cannot grasp - if it were possible to make an exact copy of a Ferrari, they would be doing it themselves! No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it.
lt me ask you this. Is it ok for me to sneak into a movie theater without paying? I'm not actualy "stealing" anything. I'm not taking a physical item. Don't say I'm taking a seat that could be sold to a paying customer. Let's assume the theater is 80% empty. Don't say buying popcorn and drinks makes up for it. Say I don't buy any snacks I'm just there to watch the movie. So is it ok to sneak into the theater? yes or no. | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA | Re: Why bother? speaking of sneaking into movies, my wife and I got a "special deal" and saw 2 movies for the price of 1 | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
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join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
3 edits | said by BF69 :said by dadkins :Oh HELL YES! See, this is what the "Theif" and "Stealing" people cannot grasp - if it were possible to make an exact copy of a Ferrari, they would be doing it themselves! No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it. lt me ask you this. Is it ok for me to sneak into a movie theater without paying? I'm not actualy "stealing" anything. I'm not taking a physical item. Don't say I'm taking a seat that could be sold to a paying customer. Let's assume the theater is 80% empty. Don't say buying popcorn and drinks makes up for it. Say I don't buy any snacks I'm just there to watch the movie. So is it ok to sneak into the theater? yes or no. That is breaking an entering and tresspassing - no.
That is a criminal offense.
Copying a digital media file is a civil case and is Copyright Infringement.
Apples and oranges friend!
EDIT: Something to also remember - for anyone to download a DVD rip, someone somewhere had to buy a DVD to be ripped.
You missed the part where if it wasn't for me downloading several movies, I would have never purchased the Blu-ray Discs of them.
The source I get my movie downloads from are doing them(MPAA) a favor! 
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Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
1 edit | Re: Why bother? said by dadkins :said by BF69 :said by dadkins :Oh HELL YES! See, this is what the "Theif" and "Stealing" people cannot grasp - if it were possible to make an exact copy of a Ferrari, they would be doing it themselves! No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it. lt me ask you this. Is it ok for me to sneak into a movie theater without paying? I'm not actualy "stealing" anything. I'm not taking a physical item. Don't say I'm taking a seat that could be sold to a paying customer. Let's assume the theater is 80% empty. Don't say buying popcorn and drinks makes up for it. Say I don't buy any snacks I'm just there to watch the movie. So is it ok to sneak into the theater? yes or no. That is breaking an entering and tresspassing - no. That is a criminal offense. Copying a digital media file is a civil case and is Copyright Infringement. Apples and oranges friend! EDIT: Something to also remember - for anyone to download a DVD rip, someone somewhere had to buy a DVD to be ripped. You missed the part where if it wasn't for me downloading several movies, I would have never purchased the Blu-ray Discs of them. The source I get my movie downloads from are doing them(MPAA) a favor! Nice dodge of answering the question. Regardless of the breaking and entering is sneaking into a movie without paying right? Of course not. You're lack of an answer says it all. the the whole "copying in not stealing because it's not a physical item" is proven wrong because sneaking into a theater isn't taking a physical item either.
See you don't even have to answer the question to give me your answer.
see I am UNBIASED that's how I can see the logic. The people here than download can't because then they can't justify their actions then. You know that to be true. You can't admit something is wrong when you are doing it yourself. Since I'm not an employee of the media companies and I no financial stake in them I can be UNBIASED so therefor I am more likely to use LOGIC and REASONING and therefor much more likely to come to the CORRECT conclusion.
My only problem is obviously not taking the hint that the uneducated uniformed or unethical people will actually ever listen and see the light.
By the way the whole "I buy the blu-rays" is bullshit. that's like saying you steal the DVD form wal-mart but as long as you buy the blu-ray it's ok. No it's not. Here's clue you could buy the blu-rays anyways. if you want to "try before you buy" it's called RENTAL. It's like $4. If you can't afford that then perhaps another job is needed and less time watching illegally downloaded movies.
See I just PROVED there is no justification. Also you can keep coming up with lame excuses and if you wish to waste your time trying to justify it to me go ahead. THERE IS NOT ONE THING YOU CAN SAY THAT WILL MAKE ME CHANGE MY OPINION. Got it? So take that into account before you decide to reply. If it's not in line with something I've already stated you're just wasting your time. | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| Re: Why bother? said by Gbcue :said by BF69 :said by dadkins :Oh HELL YES! See, this is what the "Theif" and "Stealing" people cannot grasp - if it were possible to make an exact copy of a Ferrari, they would be doing it themselves! No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it. lt me ask you this. Is it ok for me to sneak into a movie theater without paying? I'm not actualy "stealing" anything. I'm not taking a physical item. Don't say I'm taking a seat that could be sold to a paying customer. Let's assume the theater is 80% empty. Don't say buying popcorn and drinks makes up for it. Say I don't buy any snacks I'm just there to watch the movie. So is it ok to sneak into the theater? yes or no. People do this all the time already. Again, it's not the fire-fighters job to stop them, it's the theatres. did I say it was? No. So was there a point to your post? nope. | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
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Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Why bother? said by funchords :Such examples are useless -- they tend to replace actual action like creating an permanent, inexpensive and complete online library of musical recordings or changing the model and laws regarding how artists are compensated for their art. You know, the hard stuff! Which is one of the most disgusting parts of the anti-piracy things over the years. You'll have people whose only "crime" was downloading or sharing content that you couldn't even buy because the labels couldn't be bothered to continue to press physical media or make back catalogs available online.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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Pizz
Hi
join:2000-10-27
Astoria, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
| The Movie and Record legal team, been calling people pirates ever since making 'home music mix tapes' or copying VHS tapes to a blank one. The art of pirating isnt new, it's just something you cannot EVER control. What you have to do is, is embrace the buyers of your product, not force them to goto the darkside (insert darth vader music)!
If the Movie/Music companies have a brain, they'll make their own unlimited music service(s) that can compete with the likes of other services. You'll never, ever stop pirating, but least your profit will outgain, the arrr me' mateys.
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| | | | | | NormanS
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join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by BF69 :No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it. What people are failing to grasp, here, is that you be required to actually prove specific cases. Even if 99.999% of P2P was piracy, you should still need to prove it to impose sanctions. That is the way our justice system is supposed to work.
If you want civil sanctions, you need to prove to a judge, to some lesser degree than for criminal sanctions. But you must still offer proof.
What the entertainment industry wants is to be able to impose sanctions without even the minimal burden of proof required of civil tort cases. They want to be able to impose sanctions solely on the basis of their assertions. That is flat wrong, no matter how you look at it.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
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| | | | | | wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | No it is not ok, because you are trespassing. It still does not cause the theater to lose money in any fashion.
cw | |
| | | | | | | NormanS
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join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Why bother? said by wentlanc :No it is not ok, because you are trespassing. It still does not cause the theater to lose money in any fashion. Actually it does, in some fashion. Theaters pay taxes, utilities, and, maybe, rent. They apportion the COB by the number of available seats, and the time those seats will be occupied during an exhibition of a movie. A seat, whether occupied, or not, is a "net cost" to the theater. A seat occupied by a non-paying individual is, thus, revenue not generated that should have been; i.e., a sort of a loss.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | | | | | | wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH
| Re: Why bother? There is a fixed cost per room to operate a movie. Whether there is 1 viewer, or 1000, the cost remains constant.
If that person would not have purchased a ticket in the first place, then there really is no loss. The closest I could argue is where a paying customer is displaced by a non-paying customer. This is due to competition for the same space.
cw | |
| | | | | | | | | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Why bother? I suppose that the freeloader would argue, in his defence, were he actually charged with "theft of service", that, there being no loss, he took nothing? You said, originally, "It still does not cause the theater to lose money in any fashion." I am merely pointing out that there is a loss of revenue, which is some "fashion" of loss.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
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| said by BF69 :No you can't grasp the concept is that if you don't want to pay for it you should not have it. With respect, I have to disagree when it comes to what artists want fans to do with recordings of music. Some artists will agree with you, but I have a hunch they'd be in the minority. Artists are exhibitionists (in the non-sexual meaning). They want the art to be experienced.
Artists tend to live for the ability to make the expression, communicate the thought/emotion/story/song to sympathetic and/or appreciative people, and perhaps collect the recognition (applause). That a business can be built around that is important (as it sustains the work), but it is a secondary consideration.
I noticed this first in the 1970s, when a successful recording artist named Keith Green bought out his contract with Sparrow Records so that he could sell his music for whatever people were willing and able to pay, even if that was nothing.
As I got into performing myself, I met other artists who freely performed a 20-30 minute set -- stuff they'd get $2000 a night for -- just for the opportunity to do it for other singers and those of us hopefuls (I never made it much past 'hopeful'). The fact is pretty plain: Art is just not about the money, not primarily at least. It's about the sharing.
I last saw this phenom again a couple of years ago when Radiohead and Nine-Inch-Nails released their music online pay-what-you-can style. Both indicated that such releases not only spread their music farther, but actually made more money than hard sales.
Note: An artist struggling to emerge won't make enough money on the pay-what-you-can sales of recordings -- but that fact is true of the $15/CD model as well. First you get famous, then you make money on recordings as a result.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by TKJunkMail :said by El Quintron : quote:
ISPs should not be forced into the role of propping up the music and film industries failing business models
No truer words were ever said. It's not the ISP's job to protect these guys from bad business decisions. I wonder if his attitude would be the same if "the pirates" figured out a way to steal service from his ISP? So what is your solution, to keep doing things they way they have? Insanity( and stupidity ) is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
yes people should pay for thier content. The thing is they need to come up with something better than what they are doing now before it's too late and pirating movies is something people are just used to doing. Look at the music industry. they finally got rid of DRM, but they waited 10 years and now there a whole generation of people that are so used to it the whole concept of paying for music is lost on them. I bet most people that pay for music are closer to my age( 40 ) and older who have been used to buying music. I seriously doubt anyone under 25 bothers to pay for music. | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Why bother? said by BF69 :I seriously doubt anyone under 25 bothers to pay for music. Perhaps you should actually get to know some people 25 and under before making (yet another) incorrect supposition.
You should probably also get to know people in the IT industry - of any age. They've been trading music since before the average person had even heard of the Internet or things like Napster.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA | Finally!! Someone who actually GETS it!! "squeak" ROFL
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mod_wastrel
join:2008-03-28
·magicjack.com
| Yes "...we need to be careful that politicians do not get talked into putting legislation in place that, in the end, ends up looking stupid...."
Redundancy aside, such legislation looks stupid from the beginning, so it's hardly surprising it looks stupid in the end. (Politicians talked into doing something stupid (by money'd interests)? ...who ever heard of such a thing? [/sarcasm]) | |
| | cpsycho
join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON
·Wightman Telecom
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| France needs some pirates I wonder what would happen if france got its own pirate party? I could see them winning votes there two. If the ACTA passes in North America I could see pirate party gaining support here too. Charles should run for a pirate party as well. People like seeing people stand up to this sort of crap. | |
| | chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| We are legion we are many you are few, we are everywhere and anywhere.
We are all walks of life and all manner of race and creed. YOU cannot stop that which is out of pandoras box.
if you screw the net we'll use the hardware and walk to my bud who will use his wireless and beam to 1500 feet and so on.
Soon your oppression will be your undoing.
Soon your facist hitler like laws will unravel in a glorious span of democratic utopian life. YOU have no choice it is the way of all things. Peace in our time | |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| Cheap Content quote:
...creating services that allow consumers "to get content easily and cheaply," something the entertainment industry has repeatedly failed at.
Yet Apple did it so easily!
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