 
Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
 ·Colbanet
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Idiots. Tough luck. Your subscribers pay you to provide a connection at a certain speed. Plenty of ISPs out there can afford to provide service to heavy bandwidth users, you UK ISPs can too.
Here's an idea, if you UK ISPs can't afford to provide service and still make a profit, why don't you get out of the business? Somebody else will pick up the slack.
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SuprFile, super simple free image hosting: »suprfile.com | |
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 | battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000
| Re: Idiots. Here is a better Idea. If you want unrestricted, unfiltered, unshaped, do what you want to with it bandwidth, stop buying residential class services.
When they figure the pricing on these services they don't figure that the end user is going to slam it at 100% 24/7. This is how they bring the price down. If you were to go to a data center and buy 8Mb of service from any vendor you wont get it for the same per/mb you get at home. You won't even come close. | |
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| quatrix
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL
| Yeah, idiots -- but not the ISPs.
"And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...."
Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business. Take it or leave it. | |
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| | eco
Premium
join:2001-11-28
Wilmington, DE
| Re: Idiots. said by quatrix  :Yeah, idiots -- but not the ISPs. "And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...." Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business. Take it or leave it. Leave it. You know there's going to be some ISP who will be willing to put up with all this bandwidth use and that will happily absorb all the people leaving the ISPs that try to hinder what the user wants to do. | |
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| | jdandison
join:2001-11-22
Charlotte, NC
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| said by quatrix :"And here you were thinking it was the network operator's job to fund capacity upgrades in order to meet consumer demand...." Well, it's NOT. If they don't want to upgrade to meet "consumer demands", that's their business. Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but if I am a network operator and my customers are not getting what they pay for, how is it not my responsibility? The BBC should not be responsible for helping build infrastructure; it's not their infrastructure. Should I pay the power company extra because of summer brownouts? If the network can't handle demand, then the network operator should step up and improve their service, otherwise they should restrict service and charge a premium for those who want it. Besides, I'm sure that whoever the BBC is paying to host all that content probably isn't complaining - I can guarantee they're paying out the wazoooooo!
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John Dandison | Software Developer | |
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Cozworth
Premium
join:2003-06-10
england
clubs:  
| Re: Tiscali... said by Ignite :As previously mentioned Tiscali offer an extremely low price, low quality and shaped to crap service. These are the guys that restrict people's service for daring to use 350MB in a week between 6pm and midnight. Same with Carphone Warehouse, offering their service 'free' and shaped to hell, and BT. Virgin cable upgraded their max speed to 20Mb, and then restricted usage between 4pm-12am. I am on 2Mb (£17.99) and if I download 350Mb between those times my connection goes to crap. It should be 1Mb/128k (throttled) but the lag on it is awful. | |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
 ·Packet8
| Bullshit... "The internet was not set up with a view to distributing video." What a line of bullshit if I ever heard one... The internet was setup to move IP packets regardless of content, be it email, web pages, FTP packets, streaming audio or video.
You have to love how ignorant these execs are about the internet despite the fact that they run the companies that provide access to it. No wonder they are coming up with the asinine ideas they have. They haven't a clue.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Corporation: One Goal: Money 1) Charge people to connect.
2) Charge providers for connection.
3) Charge providers for the bandwidth they use. (and often the users too)
Now they want to charge providers extra for their expenses of providing the services 1, 2, and 3 that people already pay for! They are like leeches, they want everyone else to pay for everything, but they rake in the profits.
I just don't understand the logic of these thinking.
"You owe us money for us to bill you for service! If you don't pay us to upgrade our infrastructure, we'll cripple you!"
This type of situation only occurs when too much of the infrastructure and the connections are in the hands of a few, far too powerful companies with limited or no competition.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Pay per Usuage I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them.
Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs.
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: Pay per Usage said by hobgoblin :I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them. Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs. Hob Ultimately, I think this is exactly what will happen. And the heaviest users will have to either be rich or cut back on their consumption of bandwidth.
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| travelguy
join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by hobgoblin :I have always thought that customers should pay for exactly how much they use. Those who download 24/7 from Newsgroups and p2p should end up paying their proportion of the cost instead of moderate users subsidizing them. Thus if you want to download HD Movies and TV shows....You can as long as you want to bear the costs. What you may be overlooking is that the internet is a classic example of a business that has very high fixed costs and very low variable costs. Billing by the byte is analogous to billing by the minute for phone calls. It's a business model that is rapidly becoming obsolete.
What ISPs will need to do is come up with a model that looks at total bandwidth used over a period of time (to cover the average size of the pipe they need to contract for) as well as some form of peak time billing to cover the margins. | |
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| kaila
join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
clubs:
| That's fine, as long as ISP's are aware that the average usage for all users will keep rising, and structure any over usage fees/penalties up front. If they can't or choose not to keep up with bandwidth demands, they'll find themselves nailing an ever greater percentage of users with usage fees, ultimately pricing themselves out of the market. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by kaila :That's fine, as long as ISP's are aware that the average usage for all users will keep rising, and structure any over usage fees/penalties up front. If they can't or choose not to keep up with bandwidth demands, they'll find themselves nailing an ever greater percentage of users with usage fees, ultimately pricing themselves out of the market. The AVERAGE Usage is no where near what the members of this site feel it is. Its the posters that continually brag about what they download in a month that need to bring down their usage or pony up and pay for it and the network upgrades only they are demanding.
Hob | |
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FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD | Re: Pay per Usuage Explain...
because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of? | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by FiL :Explain... because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of? Because 90% of users don't download music and videos - either free ones or for pay ones.
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Internet News
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| said by FiL :Explain... because I don't see very many people using Dial up where broadband is offered. People are sharing lots of video and music now more so then ever. How is the average usage no where near what many of us here at BBR speak of? Because the average user uses his broadband to surf quicker.
Just because you are sharing music and video, the average user is not....He may look at a few youtube vids....but its no where near the 100's of Gigs that the few download.
Lots of people have lives!
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
| Pay per usage is already in place...
When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by kfsutops :You and I both know that is never going to happen. The days of AOL charging per minute (somewhat the same) have been gone a long time ago. Competition in market place made sure of that. The US likes the one price for all model. Look at the cell phone industry. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that is the reality. I think at some point its going to have to happen. I know I am getting sick of the "I pay my $35 bucks so I will download all I can" brigade as I am sure are the ISP's.
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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kfsutops
Premium
join:2002-08-19
Brandon, FL
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by hobgoblin :I think at some point its going to have to happen. I know I am getting sick of the "I pay my $35 bucks so I will download all I can" brigade as I am sure are the ISP's. Hob Unfortunately, you are probably correct. The cell phone industry can do what they want as long as there is not competition.
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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots" | |
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| | | xo
join:2007-06-15
Perry, FL
| When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by xo :When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps. Good Job at copying a previous post and depositing it here.
However it makes no sense.
If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it.
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by hobgoblin :If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it. No, but you're getting less value if you don't. | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by nixen :said by hobgoblin :If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it. No, but you're getting less value if you don't. When you go to an all you can eat restaurant do you stay 6 hours and eat until you throw up? Because that is the same logic.
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by LiamJunket :said by nixen :said by hobgoblin :If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it. No, but you're getting less value if you don't. When you go to an all you can eat restaurant do you stay 6 hours and eat until you throw up? Because that is the same logic. Yeah, that's even a valid comparison. 
How about we try again? Maybe you might understand amusement parks (I know, doubtful, as you've never struck me as the sort of person capable of understanding the concept of "amusement")? If one goes to an amusement park that charges a steep, flat-fee for the entire day (e.g. Six Flags, Busch Gardens, etc.) rather than charging per ride, it's likely that the ticket-buyer is going to try to ride as many of the rides as possible while there rather than just sitting on a bench or enjoying the economically-priced and delicious foods. Or is it your assertion that, by doing so, they are cheating the park operators out of money?
Ok... How about memberships with a gym like Gold's or Bally's (again, probably well outside your experience)? Again, one generally pays a flat, monthly rate rather than a per-visit (or per-machine or per-rep or per-weight lifted) rate. If I go daily to the gym am I maximizing the value of my membership or am I just ripping off the gym's ownership by being a gym-glutton?
Don't bother to answer. Your history makes it clear what you'd say, any way.
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Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Pay per Usuage The difference between your Gym and amusement park analogy is that you have to be present to ride the rides or lift the weights.
Most of the Bandwidth hogs....are setting up huge queues of data that they never could in a 100 years utilize or watch and then leaving for work or going to bed.
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by hobgoblin :The difference between your Gym and amusement park analogy is that you have to be present to ride the rides or lift the weights. Most of the Bandwidth hogs....are setting up huge queues of data that they never could in a 100 years utilize or watch and then leaving for work or going to bed. 1) you're making a huge assumption about the never using/watching; 2) you're splitting hairs on the "being present". But, whatever - clearly anyone that wants to use their connection for more than casual web surfing or email is going to be in the wrong in your eyes.
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Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets. | |
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| | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
| said by hobgoblin :However it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense to people who know what they are talking about...
If i have a 10mb connection it does not mean that I have to max the whole thing out 24/7 just because I am paying X dollars for it. No, it doesn't mean you HAVE to max it out... You don't have to do anything.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| said by xo :When you purchase an X Mbps pipe from a provider, you are paying for the ability to download up to the X gigabytes that the pipe can provide. If you want to go over the X gigabytes that you pipe at X Mbps can provide, you need to pay for a pipe at Y Mbps. The TOS overrides the simplified description you give of what you contracted for. You don't get to download 24x7 at the full bandwidth available. And 24x7 has NEVER been in any agreement with any ISP.
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| | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
| Re: Pay per Usuage said by LiamJunket :The TOS overrides the simplified description you give of what you contracted for. Than that means the ISP is failing to fullfil its part of the contract or that portion of the ToS is void since it contradicts the contract.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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Quake110
join:2003-12-20
Ottawa, ON
·Velcom
| Sad days for UK's broadband advancement. Just saw a documentary where France is beginning to lay down fibers to provide a Fios like service. And they actually encourage the user to use their service to view multimedia contents.
So it's not an excuse for UK's ISP providers. They'll have to keep up with the times. | |
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X_Digit
Binary Enhanced
Premium
join:2003-06-12
Mansfield, TX
1 edit | Re: Sad days for UK's broadband advancement. Ah, here's our brand new 2007 Corvette... just your style! Only $75,000 w/ a top speed of 250mph, and able to drive practically ANYWHERE... ANYTIME! You're truly unlimited!
SOME RESTRICTIONS APPLY. THE PRICE QUOTED IS FOR THE VEHICLE ITSELF. IF YOU ACTUALLY INTEND TO USE THE VEHICLE, YOU WILL INCUR A ZOOM-ZOOM FEE OF $5.00 PER MILE DRIVEN. TOP SPEED IS ONLY POSTED FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS. ANY SPEED OVER 30MPH WILL RESULT IN A ZOOM-OVERAGE FEE OF AN ADDITIONAL $1.00 PER MPH OVER. THE IN-DASH STEREO SYSTEM CAN PLAY OVER 1000 XM STATIONS; HOWEVER, IF YOU DO NOT CHOOSE ONE OF THE ONLY DOZEN "APPROVED" STATIONS, YOU WILL BE IN BREECH OF YOUR VEHICULAR AGREEMENT, RESULTING IN A COMPLETE BAN FROM YOUR VEHICLE. FOR INTERNAL REASONS, WE CAN NOT ADVISE WHAT THESE STATIONS ARE. THIS NOTICE CAN BE UPDATED AT ANYTIME WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE.
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| | travelguy
join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM | Re: Sad days for UK's broadband advancement. This post is destined to be a classic. I can see it flying from mailbox to mailbox already. | |
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Tsume
My little Toby.
join:2004-02-23
Winter Park, FL | Wow, I almost shot soda out of my nose at that one... and I wasn't even drinking soda!
True... sad that it is true, too. Looks like the Comcast ToS! | |
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Sean
The Great Divide
join:2004-01-23
Richmond Hil | Exactly the ass backwards thinking of the rich. | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| Network Mangers Need to Talk to Content Providers The issue boils down to a lack of capacity. The problem is that content providers have gone with a 1:1 service through ip rather than a 1:many service using multicast. If content providers and network managers actually thought about the problem they could come up with a manageable solution.
Network operators are just trying to extort money rather than address the problems in a sensible manner.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
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| bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
| Multicasting would only solve the problem in the case of LIVE broadcasting.
What is actually needed here is something like Akamai, where the content is cached on the provider's local networks and it reduces the overall transport bandwidth needed.
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Prove it...
Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC | If only... If only there was some kind of invention that could alleviate the impact...
...some kind of, erm, "thingy," that could -- you know -- cache data that was repetitively accessed...
yeah, one of those cache thingies... | |
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Lowtarget
Premium
join:2003-12-22
Alger, OH
clubs: | Re: If only... Watch ISP's will try to force charging money per e-mail you get and send. lmao | |
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| bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus | Yeah, I wish someone would invent a cache thingie... | |
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techjoe
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Schererville, IN | Where'd all that money go?? Invest in the infrastructure, not in the beach house.
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fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY
| Hey BBC.... Screw over the ISP's - offer to peer for FREE with each and every ISP that wants this "toll".
If they take the offer - well then if they complain, it's their infrastructure that can't handle it. If they DON'T take the offer - well then tell them to pound sand.
Seems very logical to me....IMO, they are complaining about the transit fees - or at least they should be...they can run their network as they wish.
Cut out the transit fees ("internet") and then watch as they go "uhhh...oooppps....our network sucks" | |
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UK ISPs Want iPlayer Toll
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