U.S. Broadband Is Fine, Nothing To See Here The New York Times methodically fixing all broadband issues.. Tuesday Mar 10 2009 13:34 EDT Saul Hansell of the New York Times has been writing a series of reports the past few months that all have the same basic theme: U.S. broadband really isn't as bad as many grumpy pundits (and, apparently, the facts) would have you believe. He recently argued that broadband coverage gaps were "hooey," since cable providers would quickly deploy DOCSIS 3.0 technology to almost everyone. His latest piece takes a look at broadband speeds, which he concludes are slightly lagging, but not really a big deal: quote: If you take out the countries that have made significant investment in fiber optic networks -- Japan, Korea and Sweden -- the United States is in the middle of the pack when it comes to network speed. . .Urban density explains much of that disparity.
In other words, if you take away the most impressive broadband countries, then dismiss our still mediocre showing as a product of geography (which doesn't explain our record on poor urban deployment, or the successes of say, Canada), the U.S. looks pretty good. With availability and speed issues solved, that leaves just high US broadband prices left to dismiss, which Hansell apparently can't. "On prices, unlike speeds, those tantalizing reports from overseas are correct," he says. Like in France, where users can get 100Mbps/50Mbps fiber service, VoIP and IPTV for $40 a month -- in large part because the country took our now-scrapped attempt at local-loop unbundling and made it work. Fiber carriers who were sharing the access lines of local incumbents are now building their own networks, which resulted in strong facilities-based competition and lower prices thanks to -- get ready -- regulation. Which brings us back to our first sentence, and a larger point we'd be interested to see Hansell engage. While Hansell's reports have been well written, well researched and interesting to read, they continue to carry (albeit subtly) the editorial refrain: problems in the U.S. broadband market are minuscule, and if they aren't already improving, they can be cured by organic market forces. In other words, the need for substantive industry regulation (a growing trend in DC right now) is unnecessary. From a piece last week: quote: Even now, while the United States doesn’t have the sort of price controls and competitive rules that exist in some countries, the consumer may not be entirely as bad off as some may think.
From today's piece: quote: Even without any change in government policies, Internet speeds in the United States are getting faster.
From his recent article on broadband coverage: quote: ...Comcast and other cable systems are already deploying the technology rather quickly. In other words, with no government intervention, the country is going to have the infrastructure very soon to provide almost everyone with the fastest possible Internet service.
Catching the drift, yet? The word "regulation" is akin to puppy murder the in minds of many technologists (and carriers), with all regulation inevitably resulting in the worst possible outcome. And while that's one opinion, another is that a decade of rabid deregulation, mixed with the complete and total corruption of our political system, is largely to blame for high prices and the lack of competition. Perhaps that discussion is coming in a follow up report. It's one worth having, since it sits at the absolute core of all our broadband successes and failures. |
KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 11:59 am
We're #1 !It's easy to be #1 at anything!
All you have to do is disqualify and remove from consideration everyone else. Then you're always #1. | |
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Re: We're #1 !said by KrK:It's easy to be #1 at anything! All you have to do is disqualify and remove from consideration everyone else. Then you're always #1. Even thought few American have fiber it still blows Its inferior fiber, heavily capped at 5mbit to 50mbit and pricing structure is very high compared to other offering in 3rd world country. for 40.00 all i can get is 5mbps for verizon all they could get is 10mbps/2mbps how can i say this... suck! you have pay a lot more to have something that is closer to japan... say 139.99 to 192.00 this is ridiculous also 75 percent of american are pretty much stuck at 1.5mbps to 6mpbs for the average price japan, korea, sweden, netherland pays for that are at least 25 to 50 times faster America is pathetic, we're number one at consuming gasoline We're number one at making the biggest most useless car in the world we're number one at ripping others off in many category we're at the bottom of the list we're the fattest, most lazy nation on this planet. most american just sit at home being glue to their television. hardly anyone get any exercise anymore the food makes us fat and being a coach potato make us even fatter thanks to genetically modified food by monsanto the evil corporate nazi, the world is following along in the fat american lifestyle what else did we achieve? the atomic bomb, water fluoridation, aids artifically created to reduce the population of the world, sars, aspartame, msg, agent orange the most hated nation on this planet "it doesn't matter what other nation think of us so long as they fear us" George W. Bush Australia- free healthy care UK- free health care Canada- free health care America- health care not free, are most expensive, insurance company does not cover even if you pay because they are thieves, most can't afford it, most are in poor health. insurance company will make sure you are healthy before insuring you. why insure those who are healthy? that's pointless. a healthy person doesn't need insurance America are run by monkeys, nobody know what their doing. | |
| | | herdfan Premium Member join:2003-01-25 Hurricane, WV |
herdfan
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 12:47 pm
Re: We're #1 !said by jadebangle:for 40.00 all i can get is 5mbps for verizon all they could get is 10mbps/2mbps how can i say this... suck! we're the fattest, most lazy nation on this planet. most american just sit at home being glue to their television. hardly anyone get any exercise anymore On one hand you complain about internet speeds, then complain that we are lazy spending too much time in front of the TV. How is that any different than spending too much time in front of the computer. Speeds that high are great for streaming video which is just like .....TV. Australia- free healthy care UK- free health care Canada- free health care America- health care not free, are most expensive, Have you seen the tax rates in some of those countries. Its not free. America are run by monkeys, nobody know what their doing. Can't really argue with that. | |
| | | | MacBridgerLate to the party Premium Member join:2001-01-11 Morgantown, WV 1 edit |
Re: We're #1 !The biggest joke from that guy has to be that coverage areas are fine. Cable companies will deliver services to everyone! Herdfan, how many areas around you still don't have cable? I know of quite a few places in WV that don't have cable service, and likely never will. I live half an hour from Pittsburgh and don't have cable service in my town. There are very large coverage holes all over Westmoreland county.
We are a country of visual people. If we don't see the problem in our day to day lives, it doesn't exist. | |
| | | | Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA 1 edit |
to herdfan
said by herdfan:Have you seen the tax rates in some of those countries. Its not free. President Obama and the Democrats will see to it that you'll be paying those same high rates in just a few short years. It might be hidden in the cost of electricity and every purchase you make but that doesn't mean you're not going to pay. | |
| | | | | MacBridgerLate to the party Premium Member join:2001-01-11 Morgantown, WV |
Re: We're #1 !I'm tired of hearing that politically biased nonsense. Has Obama raised taxes? No. Does he plan on raising taxes? Some people's. Not mine. If he holds true to his campaign, I would get a tax cut, as would more than 100 million Americans.
But that is a "plan" from a campaign. I'm sure we all remember George H. W. Bush saying "No new taxes." Pull your head out of your backside and realize they all lie, and they all raise your taxes. | |
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| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
to jadebangle
Well, I'm not going to go that far, but it is true we are a consumer nation that has been farmed into delivering fat corporate profits. | |
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to jadebangle
Holy mackerel, is there nothing good about America?
What do you say when you wake up in a good mood? Enquiring minds really want to know.
Step away from the kool-aid. | |
| | | Core0000 Premium Member join:2008-05-04 Somerset, KY |
to jadebangle
America really is a great country, and I say that with sincerity. I am glad I live here.
Now as for our political system, and a lot of our representatives.. well if it were entirely up to me. I can be honest and say I'd fire the lot of em. There would be real change, not just a .. 'change of positions.' It would not be some game of musical chairs...
Anyways unfortunately or fortunately, it's a matter of perspective, its not up to me, but up to everyone.
And I think that says something as well.. I mean the majority get the representatives they really want.
*Sighs* | |
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to jadebangle
said by jadebangle:said by KrK:It's easy to be #1 at anything! All you have to do is disqualify and remove from consideration everyone else. Then you're always #1. Even thought few American have fiber it still blows Its inferior fiber, heavily capped at 5mbit to 50mbit and pricing structure is very high compared to other offering in 3rd world country. for 40.00 all i can get is 5mbps for verizon all they could get is 10mbps/2mbps how can i say this... suck! you have pay a lot more to have something that is closer to japan... say 139.99 to 192.00 this is ridiculous also 75 percent of american are pretty much stuck at 1.5mbps to 6mpbs for the average price japan, korea, sweden, netherland pays for that are at least 25 to 50 times faster America is pathetic, we're number one at consuming gasoline We're number one at making the biggest most useless car in the world we're number one at ripping others off in many category we're at the bottom of the list we're the fattest, most lazy nation on this planet. most american just sit at home being glue to their television. hardly anyone get any exercise anymore the food makes us fat and being a coach potato make us even fatter thanks to genetically modified food by monsanto the evil corporate nazi, the world is following along in the fat american lifestyle what else did we achieve? the atomic bomb, water fluoridation, aids artifically created to reduce the population of the world, sars, aspartame, msg, agent orange the most hated nation on this planet "it doesn't matter what other nation think of us so long as they fear us" George W. Bush Australia- free healthy care UK- free health care Canada- free health care America- health care not free, are most expensive, insurance company does not cover even if you pay because they are thieves, most can't afford it, most are in poor health. insurance company will make sure you are healthy before insuring you. why insure those who are healthy? that's pointless. a healthy person doesn't need insurance America are run by monkeys, nobody know what their doing. Speak for yourself, don't blame America because you're fat and uneducated. Are you calling Obama a monkey? | |
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to jadebangle
What an ignorant rant. People like you are why internationals think Americans are idiots. | |
| | | | Ignite Premium Member join:2004-03-18 UK |
Ignite
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 2:37 pm
Re: We're #1 !said by BillRoland:What an ignorant rant. People like you are why internationals think Americans are idiots. I don't think all Americans are idiots just some of them! I've spent time in the US (California, Massachusetts, New York) and generally all was fine. If there is a high idiot count I didn't see it there, though I do see it 'online' in other places. That rant not being one of those that make my idiot radar go high. | |
| | | | | don1p2 join:2004-06-11 Boston, MA |
don1p2
Member
2009-Mar-10 8:46 pm
Re: We're #1 !Sorry dude but if your visit to America (thank you for coming) was limited to California, Massachusetts, New York, then You only saw the left-wing view of the USA.
Please visit the "Heartland"...the Mid-West. The "South" outside Atlanta.....the real America awaits your views bloke...with open arms...you just have to find us! | |
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to jadebangle
You left out: We're #1 at making excuses | |
| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
to jadebangle
One way plane tickets are still cheap. Why not just move to one of the countries you listed and live happily ever after? | |
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me1212 join:2008-11-20 Lees Summit, MO ·Google Fiber
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me1212
Member
2009-Mar-10 12:15 pm
WTF is wrong with him?!?Our speed are NOT as good as the much of the world, our caps are not as high as much of the world, and our coverage phails when compared to much of the world. Wireless help a lot(and if wireless could give us speeds of 50md 20mu I would be happier) but it is not yet as stable as some wired ISPs. And don't even mention sat internet I HAD it, it does NOT deserve to be called high speed, as it is an insult to all other REAL high speed. When you factor in the cost, one could make the argument that dial-up>sat. | |
| | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 12:43 pm
Re: WTF is wrong with him?!?Our numbers are OK. When people quote what Japan or Korea get, they never site averages. They always site what is available to a small minority. The large European countries have average download speeds ranging from 3.2 Mbps in Italy to 6.4 Mbps in Germany, according to a study by the Saïd Business School at Oxford. The United States has an average speed of 5.2 Mbps.
Japan was the standout, with an average speed of 16.7 Mbps. Sweden was 8.8 Mbps. And Korea averaged 7.2 Mbps. When averages are looked at, it is a different story. | |
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Re: WTF is wrong with him?!?said by FFH5:Our numbers are OK. .... our speed numbers are OK. our prices, coverage and caps suck @ass. | |
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zerocompetition
Anon
2009-Mar-10 3:20 pm
Re: WTF is wrong with him?!?said by nasadude:said by FFH5:Our numbers are OK. .... our speed numbers are OK. our prices, coverage and caps suck @ass. I agree. I live in a TOP 10 city. This is not the boondocks. You either can get ONE DSL provider or ONE Cable provider. Some areas do not even have one of each IN THE CITY. Are you crapping me when you say the competition and coverage is OK? Please. There is no competition. A CITY SHOULD BE COMPLETELY COVERED BY A HSI PROVIDER. It is not the boondocks where only one house will likely order their service. This lack of coverage in a TOP 10 city just shows how little competition there is and how little pressure the FCC and government put on these companies providing it. You can smoke your weed or get loaded on PCP and say there is coverage, but once you are sober and look at the same picture...then it is completely different. If a city is not likely to make any profit for these companies then they should not serve anyone since less people is certainly not going to make profit. The government needs to clearly state that to them. I can understand a place with 5 people in a 50 miles radius but a city is clearly not that. | |
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| | me1212 join:2008-11-20 Lees Summit, MO |
to FFH5
Averages r ok, but we pay more for less, they still haave caps up to like 4x comcast's cap, with out the throttle. And we NEED more coverage. | |
| | | Ignite Premium Member join:2004-03-18 UK |
to FFH5
Those 'average speeds' are miles out, the numbers for Japan and Korea are far lower than has been stated anywhere else. Same for Sweden. | |
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Speedtest.net not scientificHansell cites reports based on data from speedtest.net to diminish the lag in U.S. speeds. Problem is, this is a system of self-reported user data, which is unmonitored, and unprepared to properly test for things like powerboost and very high speed connections. The results I get on it for fios vary wildly from other sites. Sometimes I test my connection, get a slow result, then realize my neighbor has changed his wifi channel to mine.
In otherwords, garbage in, garbage out. It is not usable data.
Further, Hansell also ignores the fact that DOCSIS3.0 could have been delivered years ago. Overseas cable companies were clamoring for cable labs to complete the standard, but they and their corporate masters dragged their feet. This is the "market miracle" that is 3 years too late. | |
| | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 12:40 pm
Re: Speedtest.net not scientificsaid by Bill Dollar:Hansell cites reports based on data from speedtest.net to diminish the lag in U.S. speeds. He also got info from these sources as well: The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, Point-Topic, the Technology Policy Institute, the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation, and DSL Prime. | |
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Re: Speedtest.net not scientificYou should click through, or re-read Hansell's article.
Point-Topic doesn't do speed testing, nor cite speed tests. OECD does not do speed testing or cite speed tests. ITIF has written about speed testing, using the equally lame CWA Speed Matters self-reported speed tester. DSL prime does not do speed testing.
And finally, yes, industry Shill Scott Wallsten at TPI has cited speedtest.net data in the past. But again, it is unreliable, unscientific data. | |
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Once it's fine in urban liberaltopiaI guess for the NYT, once they can get broadband in big cities like NYC, Chicago or SF they couldn't care less about the rest of the country, especially rural areas and exurbs. | |
| morboComplete Your Transaction join:2002-01-22 00000 |
morbo
Member
2009-Mar-10 12:36 pm
This guy is cluelessWhy would Saul Hansell defend the status quo? Our current system is not working unless you are AT&T, Verizon, or Comcast. | |
| | jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL |
jester121
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 12:58 pm
Re: This guy is cluelessOr me. I'm quite happy with my internet choices. | |
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to morbo
I wonder if he understands the distinction between bandwidth and latency. | |
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n2jtx join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY |
n2jtx
Member
2009-Mar-10 12:49 pm
What it the Difference?In other words, if you take away the most impressive broadband countries, then dismiss our still mediocre showing as a product of geography (which doesn't explain our record on poor urban deployment, or the successes of say, Canada), the U.S. looks pretty good. With availability and speed issues solved, that leaves just high US broadband prices left to dismiss, which Hansell apparently can't. "On prices, unlike speeds, those tantalizing reports from overseas are correct," he says. This is no different that the government reporting that prices have barely risen when you take out food, energy and housing from the equation. Just the very things you need to live! | |
| Core0000 Premium Member join:2008-05-04 Somerset, KY |
Core0000
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 12:50 pm
Prices..I don't know if this is the complete reason.. but I'd say its part of it.
When the government goes printing money like they do. And it's not backed by anything, it lowers the value of the old money already on the market.
So in 2008 a bottle of tea I buy, cost a 1.00... in 2008 dec/ it cost 1.25
That's just something I actually paid attention to.
My point is it takes more money to do the same job now then it did in the past. Workers that repair the lines at the phone companies/internet service of course want paid more so they can continue to pay for goods and services (since the price of these items go up because of fuel cost/taxes etc).. its a freaking endless loop really. At least for now.
So I would say that's probably why we don't see internet service prices go down..
I honestly don't know but wanted to give my opinion/theory.. | |
| | ••••• | Bootes Premium Member join:2005-01-28 New York, NY |
Bootes
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 1:01 pm
We're not that badSure we could be much better, but US internet is much better than Canada, Australia, England, New Zealand, and probably others. I would love to have Japan's speeds, but honestly we're not that bad. | |
| | ••••••• | jsz0 Premium Member join:2008-01-23 Jewett City, CT |
jsz0
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 1:07 pm
What are we missing?What exactly are we missing out on? I can't think of a single thing I can't do with my average consumer broadband account. All websites are accessible, of course, I can stream pretty good quality online video, I can download files, I can send e-mail, IM, etc.
I think if anyone is going to convince private businesses and/or the US government to spend a lot of money on vast network upgrades we're going to need some practical examples of why we need it and why the lack of faster broadband is hurting people in some tangible way other than "I want to download 720P rips from BitTorrent really fast and I can't" | |
| | •••••••••••••• | Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA 1 edit |
Sammer
Member
2009-Mar-10 1:25 pm
Regulation vs. "De-regulation"What we've had over the past few years and what some politicians have called "de-regulation" is really a modification of regulation to try to assure high profits of incumbents and a very high cost of entry (super-regulation?) for would be competitors. The terms have become nothing but meaningless buzz-words. | |
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hmmI think there's a big difference in the sizes of the countries on the list . .
There's also a considerable cost to wiring fiber everywhere in a country that is as large as ours.
Those two things, size and cost, are the main reason we're in the middle.
Japan is the size of a slice of California ... stop and think . . .with what money shall we wire the entire nation with?
It's much easier to fiber-up a mini california than it is to wire the entire USA. | |
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I think you're on the right point, Karlit really is a question of regulation vs. free market.
And, as you point out, the problem with regulation is that it's hard to do right when this much money is at stake.
This is what you mean by "corruption" -- the fact that businesses and industries and unions aren't just going to voluntarily give up millions and billions of dollars without a fight.
They're not just going to say, "Hey, Lessig and all you other smart guys, I intellectually grasp your excellent arguments. OK, I'll just give up a whole bunch of (revenue/dues/market share) because YOU'RE RIGHT."
They are going to hire lobbyists, make contributions, try to influence public opinion via PR, etc. etc.
It is going to take some very strong leadership to make broadband be like roads or sewers -- something that everyone agrees is a public works project for the most part (although there'll always be private roads and septic tanks). It'll have to be some kind of major shift in the approach we're taking in this country. | |
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We actually ARE ahead on several key measures.We have more miles of fiber deployed and more square miles covered than any other country in the world. It's just that our country is so big, and the population so sparse in many areas; we're a tough country to cover. As for the perceived lack of choice of providers: that's in part due to the failure of the 1996 Act, but also due to consumer ignorance. As has been reported many times, we have more providers than any other country in the world (see » bennett.com/blog/2009/02 ··· oadband/), yet most consumers simply don't seem able to do a Web search, or pick up a phone book, and find alternatives; they just assume duopoly when in fact there may be many choices. So, Saul's views -- is Karl ridiculing them because DSL Reports thrives on sensationalizing broadband problems? -- are actually well balanced. | |
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jay_rm
Member
2009-Mar-10 3:21 pm
PffttttHey, it's the friggin NEW YORK TIMES - what do you expect. They'll be out of circulation soon enough... | |
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nowoolovermyeyes
Anon
2009-Mar-10 3:33 pm
Have you seen Saul's photo? It explains it all--Saul's a middle-aged guy who lived with dail up for too many years. No wonder the NY Times is dieing financially. They need staff with up-to-date skill sets and knowledge bases; not people who whose feet are firmly rooted in the past and who unable or unwilling to look with clear eyes to the future. NY Times, dump Saul and bring on someone who understands current technology and has the vision to see future needs. Otherwise, you making yourself irrelevant. | |
| Jim Kirk Premium Member join:2005-12-09 49985 |
Jim Kirk
Premium Member
2009-Mar-10 8:35 pm
TrustNever trust anyone named Saul... | |
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anon name
Anon
2009-Mar-12 3:02 pm
new broadband userI waited years for comcast or qwest to lower their prices. Now as a "digital transition" special I have their 1mb svc and basicbasic cable tv for less than $1/day...for the first year, then, we'll see. Buying a used broadband modem off craigslist helped save $3/mo. So far, so good. Not blazing fast but using a download manager means I can get stuff while doing analog stuff like reading a book and listening to previous downloads. | |
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