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Vendor Claims 400 Mbps DSL
Though Like Most DSL Advancements You'll Never See It
by Karl Bode 01:29PM Wednesday Oct 10 2012
UK hardware vendor Genesis Technical Systems claims that their new DSL variant can deliver last mile speeds up to 400 Mbps downstream. According to a company press statement, Genesis Technical will be introducing their new "DSL Rings" technology at the Broadband World Forum 2012 trade show. Claiming that it's an "environmentally friendly" and "backhaul agnostic" alternative to fiber to the home or fiber to the node, the company's press release is a bit skimpy on details as to how DSL Rings actually work.

Their website offers just a little bit more detail, noting they hope it's commercially available next year:
quote:
Click for full size
(To the right) is a graphical description of the architecture. Note that the links between the houses are implemented via a passive connection at the Convergence Node (CN). In this way, a single CN design can efficiently manage 2-15 houses in a given ring. Genesis suggests a maximum of 12 houses in the ring due to the delay introduced by transiting each node to get back to the Central Office (CO).

Bonded pairs are used to obtain maximum bandwidth from the CO to the pedestal/distribution point (DP). The CN, which is environmentally hardened and powered via the copper wire from the CO, terminates the bonded signals and acts as the gateway node for the subscriber ring. Each node can add, drop and pass through traffic. The VDSL2 based transmission curve restarts at each node. In most cases the distances back to the pedestal and then to the house are less than 250 meters (<750ft). VDSL2 bandwidth at this distance is up to 200 Mb/s (depending on VDSL2 chipset manufacturer’s specifications and the quality of the cable).
There's no limit of companies aiming hardware at global phone companies too cash-strapped or timid to deploy fiber, and you're supposed to ignore the fact that despite repeated announcements of this type (NodeScale Vectoring DSL technology, Phantom Mode DSL, etc.), few if any of them have seen their way to market in any serious capacity. Huawei, Alcatel Lucent and Nokia have been promising last-mile DSL speeds upwards of 800 Mbps over multiple pair for several years now, with few if any hard product or real-world deployments to show for it --as most telcos, fat and happy in uncompetitive markets, trim back on CAPEX and network investment.

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tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

$$

much of the same reason these ideas were abaondoned more than 15 years ago was because of the added cost..

those bonded backhaul cables are going to be roughly the a simlar cost in addition to the dslams to just laying fiber + nodes in the FIRST PLACE!!! there isn't a reasonable way to get the cost down.. besides, using all the excess copper in a bundle leave ZERO room for new customers and defeats the purpose of having copper in the first place.. aggregation will not be able to get 400mbits on aging copper plant-- in the REAL WORLD all of this has been looked at before..
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Re: $$

said by tmc8080:

much of the same reason these ideas were abaondoned more than 15 years ago was because of the added cost..

those bonded backhaul cables are going to be roughly the a simlar cost in addition to the dslams to just laying fiber + nodes in the FIRST PLACE!!! there isn't a reasonable way to get the cost down.. besides, using all the excess copper in a bundle leave ZERO room for new customers and defeats the purpose of having copper in the first place.. aggregation will not be able to get 400mbits on aging copper plant-- in the REAL WORLD all of this has been looked at before..

Doubtful.

Running new fiber to the node or curb is extremely costly versus re-purposing copper, especially in low-density deployments.

Considering that cost is the number one consideration for a majority of consumers (versus the minority that will buy Fios), and even moreso for rural non-subscribers, copper-based technologies remain viable until such time as someone figures a way to bring down the real cost of stringing/laying fiber.

The 400mbps figure is clearly hype, but these technologies may deliver 40+ mbps where very little or none exists today. If I were living in the stix, I'd much rather have "slow DSL" today than LTE in 5 years or FTTH in 20.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Why would you "never see it"

Where is the evidence to support that conjecture?

ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2

Re: Why would you "never see it"

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

mmay149q
Premium
join:2009-03-05
Dallas, TX
kudos:48

Re: Why would you "never see it"

said by ITALIAN926:

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

I know, isn't is sad when we've had gigabit over copper up to 250 feet for the past 10 years? Very true statement dude, this IS lolable........

Matt
--
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. -Albert Einstein

AnonFTW

@rr.com

Re: Why would you "never see it"

said by mmay149q:

said by ITALIAN926:

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

I know, isn't is sad when we've had gigabit over copper up to 250 feet for the past 10 years? Very true statement dude, this IS lolable........

Matt

Over a single copper pair?

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Re: Why would you "never see it"

said by AnonFTW :

said by mmay149q:

said by ITALIAN926:

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

I know, isn't is sad when we've had gigabit over copper up to 250 feet for the past 10 years? Very true statement dude, this IS lolable........

Matt

Over a single copper pair?

Cable has like 8Gig over coax assuming if they dedicated it all to internet
--
Well, does your car at least turn into something else? Sometimes I turn it into a trashcan. Hmm...
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

said by mmay149q:

said by ITALIAN926:

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

I know, isn't is sad when we've had gigabit over copper up to 250 feet for the past 10 years? Very true statement dude, this IS lolable........

Matt

Keep in mind Gigabit ethernet cable is 4 pair. A regular telephone whire is 2 pair.

Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2

Re: Why would you "never see it"

said by majortom1029:

Keep in mind Gigabit ethernet cable is 4 pair. A regular telephone whire is 2 pair.

Try 1 pair

Sure you can have 2 pair, but then you can have 2 lines...
WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

Copper plant = CAT3
GigaBit = CAT6

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:11
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

Re: Why would you "never see it"

said by WHT:

Copper plant = CAT3
GigaBit = CAT6

Telephone is only CAT3 in new deployments, if then.

Gig-Ethernet runs fine on CAT5e.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
said by mmay149q:

said by ITALIAN926:

400Mbps over a 100 foot copper loop !!!?

lol

I know, isn't is sad when we've had gigabit over copper up to 250 feet for the past 10 years? Very true statement dude, this IS lolable........

Matt

2006 to provide 10 Gbit/s connections over unshielded or shielded twisted pair cables, over distances up to 100 metres (330 ft).

FOR THE WIN
--
Well, does your car at least turn into something else? Sometimes I turn it into a trashcan. Hmm...

LightS
Premium
join:2005-12-17
Greenville, TX
Uhh... Look up 802.3.

Mojo 77

@speakeasy.net
You mean aside from the hundreds of ultra-fast DSL promises like this one we've all watched amount to exactly jack shit over the last decade?

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: Why would you "never see it"

From those companies sure, but to definitively claim that you will never see THIS...conjecture.

Twaddle

@sbcglobal.net
That's for damn sure. When they sell you 6 mb/768 and it can't support 1.5/128 because of the piss poor copper strings why would we believe anything . DSL in the lab is not DSL in the real world. Let's hear some real news!
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

1 recommendation

Slow...

Huawei is already capable of pushing 1gbps over 100 meters, 500mbps over 200 meters.
pb2k

join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Exchange server?? lol

All this time I thought DSLAMs connected into aggregation switches and/or edge routers. I wonder if they are referring to a server in the exchange (CO), or a microsoft exchange server (In the exchange???).
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

1 recommendation

It will require upgrades

This would require "fibre huts" in addition to VDSL2+ hardware installed at the DSLAM. Looking at the architecture as a ring, I'm not sure if it's bi-directional but if there is a ring disruption it could take the loop out. That never happens

The question would be if the telco updates to VDSL2+ (and remember AT&T uses a variant) why would they want to build out huts.

That seems questionable...

All of this will compete w/ wireless, macrocells, or ethernet over copper/fibre.

This is also predicated on the aging copper lines in existence today at the prem not needing replacement which costs lots.

antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
United State
kudos:4

And I still can't get DSL.

No DSL in my two Verizon home areas.

dslte

@rr.com

hah

I will see it when I believe it

leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

Pros and cons

This is definitely a logical approach that has much going for it:
Up 12 or 15 homes are wired into a ring with short distance copper pairs. The short distance allows maximizing the performance of VDSL2 but the ring design also means that the top speed of 400Mbps is shared for those homes. Concurrent Internet use means each home is only getting a slice of the pie but it will still be plenty fast.

By sharing a connection for 12 (or 15) homes existing copper pairs are being freed up that can be used for bonding (ADSL2+ and VDSL2 can bond up to 32 pairs). This allows existing copper wires to connect from CO to the CN instead of installing new fiber. Little cost and time to deploy.

Using existing VDSL2 standard components means little development cost and faster speed to a marketable product.

Where it will all break down is at the CN. DSL (all variants) work by transmitting a strong signal over a copper pair to a very sensitive receiver at the other end. The reason this works is because the uplink and downlink frequencies are different and neither the DSLAM nor the DSL CPE are transmitting and receiving at the same frequency.

In order for the DSL Ring idea to work DSL signals need to be retransmitted. This means that the CN will need to receive DSL signals at the same frequencies (from the CO) at which it will forward it into the Ring (to the CPE) and vice versa. If the HGW are active components (retransmitting instead of just passing through) the same problem exists there as well. I'm not sure how realistic it is under real life conditions to avoid the feedback problems (from local transmitter to receiver) this is going to cause.
--
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raytaylor

join:2009-07-28
kudos:1

Re: Pros and cons

said by leibold:

In order for the DSL Ring idea to work DSL signals need to be retransmitted. This means that the CN will need to receive DSL signals at the same frequencies (from the CO) at which it will forward it into the Ring (to the CPE) and vice versa. If the HGW are active components (retransmitting instead of just passing through) the same problem exists there as well. I'm not sure how realistic it is under real life conditions to avoid the feedback problems (from local transmitter to receiver) this is going to cause.

By placing a notch filter on the line, you can allow the voice coming from the exchange to pass through the line while effectivley cutting the line at dsl frequencies. Or you could feed the voice circuits from the exchange by running a PCM encoded system or voip over the top of the DSL signals between the local ring and the exchange backhaul.
sparc

join:2006-05-06

I'd be happy with 5% of that via DSL

If someone like AT&T could take advantage of these technologies to make an upgrade of only 5% of that, i'd be very happy.