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Verizon Again Hints At Metered Billing
And again tries to suggest that 'it's only fair...'
by Karl Bode Wednesday 18-Nov-2009 tags: prices · business · bandwidth · Op/Ed · consumers · Verizon FiOS · Verizon Online DSL
Back in September we noted how it seems like only a matter of time before Verizon engaged in metered broadband billing. After Time Warner Cable's PR implosion, most ISPs are in a holding pattern on the idea until they can sell consumers on it, something they haven't done a good job of so far. Verizon also continues to face competition from Cablevision, who has publicly stated they think metered billing confuses customers and they "think broadband is a pretty powerful drug and we want people to consume more of it." But Verizon continues to dream, telling Stacey Higginbotham at GigaOM they still dream of a metered future:

Ultimately this is the fairest cost recovery model, and with a tiering plan or a meter everyone is paying their fair shares to finance the network," Whitton said. Unlike other ISPs, Verizon doesn’t view heavy bandwidth users as hogs, but it does view them as potentially high-end customers.

Again though, the kind of metered billing models carriers propose have nothing to do with fairness. If it was about fairness, Verizon would impose a pricing model where users who checked their e-mail twice a month would pay $5 or less for bandwidth. "Fairness" would involve all customers actually paying only for what they use under a pure per-byte billing model. But this model isn't want carriers are pushing for, because 90% of their customer base would wind up paying less money.

No, what ISP executives and investors dream of is charging everyone between $30-$60 for bandwidth, and then piling overage charges on top of that. That has nothing to do with fairness, and has everything to do with raising prices ahead of a video explosion, and protecting ISP TV revenues from Internet video. The model would also cushion the consistent erosion of Verizon's landline business, and help incumbent carriers retain power in an evolving market in which they, left unaided, organically become dumb pipe operators.

Verizon's Brian Whitton's claim that such a push is about managing excessive users in order to fund the network is however, false. While these users do consume more than their "fair share" of bandwidth, they make up only a tiny portion of the ISP customer base. They can easily be managed with some kind of delineating usage cap that separates a carrier's regular users from your true bandwidth gluttons. The latter, should they repeatedly cross the cap, can be nudged to more expensive business tiers. There's also a growing number of intelligent network management technologies that specifically target only these users.

The continuing ISP hints that network upgrades can't be funded by revenues made under the current flat-rate pricing model are also demonstrably false. Verizon, AT&T and Comcast's earnings reports and 10-K tax forms are easily viewable for anyone who doubts otherwise. Everyone likes to make more money of course, but by pretending this desire is about altruism, "fairness" or financial necessity (when your tax records prove otherwise) -- insults your customers' intelligence.

Meanwhile as Higginbotham astutely notes, the lack of competition in many markets means that if consumers accept a move to the kind of overage fees ISPs dream of, they'd better be ready to pay more money for less broadband service. In an uncompetitive market if you think an ISP that starts charging $2 per gigabyte in 2009 will ever lower that price point (despite the ever-decreasing cost of bandwidth and network hardware), you're kidding yourself.

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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

extortion

And racketeering.

...You like that a broadband intahnet do yah? Oh, you wanna actually use the crap out of it sometimes? That'll cost ya a little extra, just in case, you know, some bad person might want to throw a brick through your window, or kill your cat...

What a mess.

Indeed, if they really did offer the "what the frak is the internet" plan for less use, it'd have to be $5. Karl's right though; we'll never see that...

Why not just set a clear usage policy that makes sense to the average person? Is that too much to ask?
gorehound

join:2009-06-19
Portland, ME

Re: extortion

it is extorition and it is bullshit.i want my monthly access not this metered krap.
i am truly wishing i had a way to setup a broadband ISP and then doing it cheaper and better than these greedbags cause i would never do metered and if i had to i would close up shop first.
ljenkins

join:2009-11-21

Re: extortion

I started up an isp about a year ago. What keeps our city of 9000 people happy is the diversity. I have been into other area's of the country that were 4-5 times as big and have fewer choices for access. Here we have 5 ISP's to choose from ; all with great coverage (including ours :P). I am sure we won't ever have to go into a metered system, and I am sure that the other guys here in town don't want to either. When the ISP's fear each other most of the time great things happen. The big problem I see with this is that most of these location's are a single ISP market, and that's bad. The scary thing about this most of all is that it is expanding into more and more territories.

Van
Premium
join:2009-07-08
New Orleans, LA

Karl, you have any guess

when this actually would be implemented IF it does?

2-3 years from now? 5?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:29

Re: Karl, you have any guess

Depends on how seriously they want it.

If the ISPs got together (unofficially, of course) and decided to make a huge lobbying and PR push to sell these plans as altruism, they could have them imposed within two years in all markets.
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

1 edit

Re: Karl, you have any guess

The interesting other side of this debate is the fact that content has already all got together and consolidated into just a few players.

•Akamai
•Google
•LimeLight Networks

The majority of all world wide Internet content is delivered through a minority of content distribution players. Far fewer than their are ISPs in the world. These 3 have collectively pushed the network costs away from themselves through strong arm peering ultimatums and ISP bandwidth arbitrage negotiations.

This allows them to push unlimited traffic at little to no network costs for them. While content gains revenue as traffic increases, the flat fee model on the other side of the delivery has not changed and the content paying ISPs for their 1/2 of the traffic is moving to zero. Peering ratios use to keep this balance, but given the limited massive content players and that collective muscle, it is changing.

Note: this is a pretty significant industry change. There use to be two sides paying for "the Internet": Content paid one side and the users paid the other. A very few well organized strategies have moved all the network cost burden to the ISPs and then the users.
disc

join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC

1 edit

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by yt:

A very few well organized strategies have moved all the network cost burden to the ISPs and then the users.
Have ISP operating costs per sub gone up?

I seem to recall that monthly operating costs for cablecos/telcos for high-speed internet is roughly $8/sub. [Edit: And that's a ceiling, some can do it for less.]

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
Premium
join:2002-03-05

Re: Karl, you have any guess

Makes me feel even happier now to know that Comcast is making money hand over fist when they rape me for $60 every month for allegedly "high speed" Internet.

LeftOfSanity
People Suck.

join:2005-11-06
Felton, DE

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by NOVA_Guy:

Makes me feel even happier now to know that Comcast is making money hand over fist when they rape me for $60 every month for allegedly "high speed" Internet.
Alleged "high speed"? What does that mean? You don't get it? Or is it not what you define as fast? Are you one of those who want 10g up and down for $20 a month?
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03
said by disc:

]Have ISP operating costs per sub gone up?
For the ultra-high end terabyte downloaders that this is marketed at... I would have to guess a yes on that one. But that was not my point.

BF69
Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by yt:

said by disc:

]Have ISP operating costs per sub gone up?
For the ultra-high end terabyte downloaders that this is marketed at... I would have to guess a yes on that one. But that was not my point.
And a hard cap can put a stop to that. Anyways let's have fun with math $8 per sub, then 7 cents per GB. So a $60 monthly charge for internet would mean someone would have to use 750 GB per month before the ISP loses money. Since Comcast has a 250 GB cap what exactly is the issue?

nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
Did you already drink the Cool-Aid? What makes you think this is actually targeted at ultra-high end terabyte downloaders?

zoom314

join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
said by disc:

said by yt:

A very few well organized strategies have moved all the network cost burden to the ISPs and then the users.
Have ISP operating costs per sub gone up?

I seem to recall that monthly operating costs for cablecos/telcos for high-speed internet is roughly $8/sub. [Edit: And that's a ceiling, some can do it for less.]
$8?? I pay Verizon $21.99 for 1M/384K DSL service every month, I wish mine was $8 a month as I'd love to use the extra $13.99 elsewhere.
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Winterman

join:2009-10-29
Wasilla, AK
The End-User has now changed their habits. An average user used to use around 11GB/month by downloading music, photos, maybe a bit of YouTube. Now the Users are using relatively new applications to stream DVD-Quality video, increasing their monthly usage exponentially. Three standard definition movies a week may use 20GB+......
ljenkins

join:2009-11-21

Re: Karl, you have any guess

We sell 512Kbit through 14Mbit to our customers. Our highest 3% of customers use about 19GBdown/3GBUp monthly (this one is on 10Mbit). 45% of ALL of our customers use under 3GBdown/month. This is taken from a pool of 239 people (my ISP). I have only been in business for 1 year; excluding the 6 month's prior of surveying customer interest and finding resource. I am sure if I asked the cable or telco they would have roughly the same numbers. Our demographic is college students and typical households. We have no caps or anything. We don't even QoS any services (other than prioritizing http and https for browsing).

I think alot of the telco's and media conglomerate's are trying to flex those numbers a bit to scare everyone into a system as such. I saw one report a while back where the only customers they were getting their numbers from were user's that were male/single/aged 19-28.

BTW our 512kbit package is only $13.49 and we still clear alright. Our typical cost per sub is only $5.50/month.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA
You do realize that the side you seem to be sympathizing with here, has been overcharging for said bandwidth for years now?!? Boo hoo!!!

ThrowDemsOut
If you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4
said by yt:

The interesting other side of this debate is the fact that content has already all got together and consolidated into just a few players.

•Akamai
•Google
•LimeLight Networks

The majority of all world wide Internet content is delivered through a minority of content distribution players. Far fewer than their are ISPs in the world. These 3 have collectively pushed the network costs away from themselves through strong arm peering ultimatums and ISP bandwidth arbitrage negotiations.

This allows them to push unlimited traffic at little to no network costs for them. While content gains revenue as traffic increases, the flat fee model on the other side of the delivery has not changed and the content paying ISPs for their 1/2 of the traffic is moving to zero. Peering ratios use to keep this balance, but given the limited massive content players and that collective muscle, it is changing.

Note: this is a pretty significant industry change. There use to be two sides paying for "the Internet": Content paid one side and the users paid the other. A very few well organized strategies have moved all the network cost burden to the ISPs and then the users.
All good points for those who refuse to believe the ISPs aren't the villains. The content providers are the ones generating tons of traffic while paying next to nothing for it. It is cost shifting pure and simple.
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noname10

join:2009-10-14

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by ThrowDemsOut:

said by yt:

The interesting other side of this debate is the fact that content has already all got together and consolidated into just a few players.

•Akamai
•Google
•LimeLight Networks

The majority of all world wide Internet content is delivered through a minority of content distribution players. Far fewer than their are ISPs in the world. These 3 have collectively pushed the network costs away from themselves through strong arm peering ultimatums and ISP bandwidth arbitrage negotiations.

This allows them to push unlimited traffic at little to no network costs for them. While content gains revenue as traffic increases, the flat fee model on the other side of the delivery has not changed and the content paying ISPs for their 1/2 of the traffic is moving to zero. Peering ratios use to keep this balance, but given the limited massive content players and that collective muscle, it is changing.

Note: this is a pretty significant industry change. There use to be two sides paying for "the Internet": Content paid one side and the users paid the other. A very few well organized strategies have moved all the network cost burden to the ISPs and then the users.
All good points for those who refuse to believe the ISPs aren't the villains. The content providers are the ones generating tons of traffic while paying next to nothing for it. It is cost shifting pure and simple.
You're not mentioning the fact that content from Akamai, Google, or Limelight is cheaper for the ISP as well.

Google and Limelight peer with most ISP which cuts out transit costs for both the content provider (google and Limelight) and the ISP. The Alternative is your ISP paying a transit provider (such as level3 or Cogent) to deliver them traffic while at the same time Google and Limelight would be paying those same transit providers to take their traffic. The direct peering takes out an unnecessary middle man and saves both parties money.

With Akamai they actually pay many ISP's to co-locate their servers within the ISP's network. I can't speak for all ISP's but know that for many they are actually making a profit off of the Akamai co-location. Of course just like with the peering with Google and Limelight the ISP does not have to pay a 3rd party transit provider for upstream access. They also avoid port fees at the exchange and other trivial costs.

Now I can see your point about the content providers pushing costs on the ISP's because it's the ISP's last mile network that is really being pushed to it's limits here and the content providers aren't burdened with the last mile cost. However there is nothing outside of the traffic shaping and blocking of content that the ISP's can do about the growing amount of internet traffic. So that leaves them in two spots. Pay a transit provider for the traffic or save money by bypassing the transit provider and take the traffic for free. Either way they are getting the traffic they might as well choose the cheaper option which is peering with Google, Limelight, and others.

Oh, I should also mention that the peering with Google and Limelight along with the co-location of Akamai servers also lowers the demand for traffic on what people would call the "backbones" which keeps costs for everyone down (well except the last mile ISP LOL.) At the same time though it improves reliability, performance, and latency for the end users on the last mile network (you sitting at home reading this.)

Peering is the future of the internet. There will always been a need for transit but that need is diminishing at a rapid rate. I often hear people talk about "tier 1" backbones but that is an outdated concept and their importance is dropping faster than anyone outside of the industry would believe.
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

1 edit

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by noname10:

You're not mentioning the fact that content from Akamai, Google, or Limelight is cheaper for the ISP as well.

Google and Limelight peer with most ISP which cuts out transit costs for both the content provider (google and Limelight) and the ISP.

....The direct peering takes out an unnecessary middle man and saves both parties money.
This is a myth used to (temporarily) justify this model.

Transit costs for broadband ISPs are a fraction of end to end bandwidth costs. Enabling unlimited bandwidth is never cheaper for the ISP as it does not lower the costs of metro networks or last mile. "Free" peering should only be done with entities that share equal costs of carrying the traffic end to end (1 meter vs 1000KM). If one party sends more than the other, there should be settlement regardless of their Tiered status.

The reason the big 3 have peering with ISPs today is due to their ability to cause great pain to non ISPs by manipulating traffic locations or arbitrage which increase the ISPs cost forcing the issue. There is a cost to deliver bits and the big 3 don't want any part of it. They want those costs pushed to the ISP and in turn the users.

It is easy to blame ones infrastructure provider (TV or data). What most fail to realize is the reality of companies like ESPN raising their prices, or the big 3 no longer paying for their 1/2 of end to end Internet delivery.

While it is easy to point a finger (I guess as I am doing), think through the entire picture vs. the easy "pile on" approach. The Internet economics ARE changing and concerns about the manipulation of this should focus on all involved.
noname10

join:2009-10-14

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by yt:

said by noname10:

You're not mentioning the fact that content from Akamai, Google, or Limelight is cheaper for the ISP as well.

Google and Limelight peer with most ISP which cuts out transit costs for both the content provider (google and Limelight) and the ISP.

....The direct peering takes out an unnecessary middle man and saves both parties money.
This is a myth used to (temporarily) justify this model.

No you are wrong. It is not a Myth it is a fact. Your entire argument is a fallacy.

Think about this logic here. I say peering saves the ISP's money, and you say that is a myth based on the savings being small? In fact your argument against me supported my position not yours.
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

4 edits

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by noname10:

Think about this logic here. I say peering saves the ISP's money, and you say that is a myth based on the savings being small? In fact your argument against me supported my position not yours.
Let me try and clarify it.

• The small (temporary) savings are for some ISPs for the existing traffic.
• Or.. the traffic may already be traversing a peer of that ISP and while the CDN is, and should, be paying for use of a network, it doesn't save the ISP any transit costs. Peers have a balance of trade where either party carries relatively equal load/equal distance of the other parties traffic. (hence the peering relationship vs transit)
• There is a end to end cost of traffic that has first mile, core, metro and last mile. The most expensive part of the network is as it gets close to the user. The metro and access.
• While a CDN may (and I stress may) cut out some national costs, allowing UNLIMITED FREE traffic without any network growth recover costs takes the existing (temporary) savings of not paying transit and 10x, 100x the amount of content that can be sent at no incremental cost.

This in turn takes that temporary transit savings (small piece of the $$ pie) and enables unfunded exponential growth requiring large capital outlay on the metro and last mile.

Most all content is consolidating behind 3 players and companies like the one you work for are pushing for no more network costs (for them). This dismantles existing Internet economics and pushes all network costs to the consumers.

Pure and simple: Free peering should be with peers that have an equal network cost burden of carrying traffic. 10 meters vs 1000 KM is not equal network cost burden. Consumers should not be the only ones paying for the growth of Internet traffic.
noname10

join:2009-10-14
said by yt:

said by noname10:

You're not mentioning the fact that content from Akamai, Google, or Limelight is cheaper for the ISP as well.

Google and Limelight peer with most ISP which cuts out transit costs for both the content provider (google and Limelight) and the ISP.

....The direct peering takes out an unnecessary middle man and saves both parties money.


"Free" peering should only be done with entities that share equal costs of carrying the traffic end to end (1 meter vs 1000KM). If one party sends more than the other, there should be settlement regardless of their Tiered status.

Ok, I wanted to adress this statement too because it is so asinine. Actually I am having trouble responding to it. You want both the ISP and content provider to to pay MORE MONEYto add a unnecessary middleman network and provide a less reliable and lower quality of service with higher latency at the same time? Are you a child or a union worker?

It actually wouldn't surprise me if your a union telco worker. Please tell me you are for my own amusement LOL.
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

4 edits

Re: Karl, you have any guess

said by noname10:

Ok, I wanted to adress this statement too because it is so asinine. Actually I am having trouble responding to it. You want both the ISP and content provider to to pay MORE MONEYto add a unnecessary middleman network and provide a less reliable and lower quality of service with higher latency at the same time? Are you a child or a union worker?

It actually wouldn't surprise me if your a union telco worker. Please tell me you are for my own amusement LOL.
As stated before, the intermediate providers are not the main cost of Internet infrastructure. In fact, most of them provide very little of the network as most broadband networks have backbones these days. Most of the middle transit providers carry the traffic for 1 router hop and are "selling" the broadband networks (very similar to Cogent issues in the past). The middle providers gain the profits without having any of the real costs. This is why the Tier1 peering system is in such a mess these days.

The broadband networks still need to carry this traffic end to end and any minor savings (if any) is temporary and negatively compounded by the impact of an increase growth trend (do to unfunded free access) on the edge.

I am not advocating content pay everyone... I am saying that content should pay someone for network use and balance of trade/proper peering will maintain the economics. Otherwise all costs push to the consumer.
ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

Muni fiber, here we come!

If the telcos and cablecos want to hear more about muni fiber, then let them try this. One of the main things keeping muni fiber projects in check is the belief by many people that the service they have is good enough. If prices from these companies start to climb, then finding another option will appeal to many more people.

John McClane
yippee ki yay
Premium
join:2005-03-19

Re: Muni fiber, here we come!

another option has always appealed to me. i love competition.
--
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MalibuMaxx
Premium
join:2007-02-06
Chesterton, IN
Reviews:
·Comcast
Our community was offerd a muni-fiber project (provided by our schools) we declined due to the fact that everyone (mostly the old farts) of the community thought verizon dsl was just fine enough. Comcast is the only real decent speed offering here sad to say.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
Reviews:
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·Time Warner Cable

Re: Muni fiber, here we come!

and since the network would be from the Schools anything that would touch that network would have to be filtered. Wouldn't that suck!

And yes that is the case. There are federal and state laws that state that.
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R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo

join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

Quite simple...

If the ISPs collude to force metered billing, we should collude to move to whoever is available who doesn't offer metered billing. I'll go back to freaking dialup if I have to.

Just try me.

rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA

Re: Quite simple...

You do realize that on dialup the most you can really download in a month is 5GB, right?

John McClane
yippee ki yay
Premium
join:2005-03-19

Re: Quite simple...

your talking 1 modem right? not teamed modems

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo

join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA
How much I can download is not the point. The point is using my wallet to tell them what I think about their Idea of "fairness". If enough people leave, they either go out of business or start offering something people want. That simple.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2
More like 15GB

benc
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
Reviews:
·Charter

Re: Quite simple...

said by iansltx:

More like 15GB
     Only if, with the dial-up connection, you connect it 24/7 for the entire month and saturate the entire connection for the entire time.

     It's very doubtful that many, if even any dial-up users actually do that. If any do they are few in number.

     You are correct that 15GB is close to the theoretical maximum that one can download using dial-up. Actually I once figured it to be close to about 17GB, but that's assuming you always get 53.3Kbps, with 100% ideal line conditions. Now how often does that happen? Didn't think so.

     I only mention this so others can see how you got that number.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
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join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
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·row44

This makes no sense

said by :
Ultimately this is the fairest cost recovery model, and with a tiering plan or a meter everyone is paying their fair shares to finance the network
The fairest is a flat fee so that all the customers pay for the USAGE of their internet connection. The costs do not change with utilization. When they build the network and buy fiber and routers they are not billed based on utilization.

Paying a flat fee for your connection is paying your fair share. The connection cost the same regardless of how much you utilize it.
If they charge base on untilization then those that utlize their connection pay more for it which is unfair.
--
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See 11 replies to this post

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT

Sorry but...

I just can't take the entirely negative attitude towards this that the above editorial does.

I think for starters..it can be argued that broadband these days is absurdly inexpensive....COMPARED to what it used to be.
Is anyone with me on recalling the several hundred dollar per month dial up bills we used to pay and where a 28.8 dial up modem was something we waited breathlessly for to come out?

I mean..we are light years away from those days..at 1/10th the costs in some cases. (at least my case from those compuserve bills I used to receive).

And, we are continually seeing speeds increases and in the case of Comcast ....2 times the speeds being rolled out as the standard tier..at no additional cost from where the flat rate pricing has stood for years now.

And..we have all witnessed on this site how the heavy users cry even when 250 ~400 gig caps are imposed on them.

The question is..what is fair? Whether it's AT&T ..Verizon..comcast or whomever...these are companies in the business to make money. They are not charity organizations. They are companies who collectively spent billions and billions of dollars rolling out these networks. And today..they give us 1000's of times the speeds..at fractions of the cost that these things used to be for consumers.

A 42.95 per month service..costs a consumer One DOLLAR and 43 cents per day. For unlimited service. Who..and what..in this world..offers THAT kind of value..for THAT small a price?
Save 3 stamps a day..and you paid for that by emailing instead.
Everywhere we look..the internet can save us. From shopping online..to price comparisons..to emailing...to whatever.
I bought my last residence at a great price because of the internet..and the resources it brought to my fingertips. And that saved me tens of thousands of dollars. As I did a vehicle off ebay motors..saving thousands more. But yet..the companies that make it happen aren't supposed to make a profit? And 1.50 or 2.00 a day is ...too much?

I think it's the biggest bargain of the century. And nothing less than that. From videos to emailing to the countless hours on BBR to all the entertainment there is out there on the WWW..
from online banking to brokerages to shopping to everything else..the net has become our right hand. Indespensible..but yet..for some..it's not viewed as being worth..a dollar fifty a day?

That cigarette they smoke is though..or that hamburger at mcd's..or cup of coffee which costs MORE than this is though.
Sorry..but I just think that some have their priorities not in order..and have failed to consider the value that is our internet connections.

I..for one..don't think that average consumers should have to pay for those who want to use 250 gigs a month and more.
I think that THEY should pay for that. And..I think it should be available to them to do so. I ALSO don't think that average consumers should somehow expect to pay LESS than they do now under a per gigabyte billing system..because I think it's already priced very fairly for what it is. I think..it all boils down to ...people already get a LOT for their money. And, those who want more..should pay for it. But..for everyone else..whether it's a 1000k dsl connection for 20 bucks..or a cable connection for 42.95..I think people get their monies worth many times over. And....if you don't think so..then maybe you never lived through the early 1990's..or forgot what life was like back then compared to now.

~Rick
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!

See 28 replies to this post
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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·Comcast
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Greed!

Companies like Verizon that are operating in an oligopoly environment have no reason for not coming up with new ways to gouge the customer. Before any ISP is permitted to introduce metered billing the service provider should be required to prove that their metering system is accurate.

Every ISP should immediately be required to put in place a tool that the customer can use to determine their usage during their billing period. Furthermore the tool should include a feature that allows a customer to download a comma delimited file that lists every IP address downloading data, the number of packets downloaded and a who is report on the address that is the source of the packets. The report would be just like a long distance telephone bill.

If metered billing is ever allowed to be put in place, ISP's should be regulated as to what type of packets are billable. Packets from IP addresses that are used to update computer security such as anti-virus, patches or service packs should be exempt from being counted against a customers monthly allocation. Otherwise customers might be induced to block security downloads to avoid exceeding their monthly allocation. The cost for packets that are inserted in a data stream from an advertisers website should be paid for by the advertiser not the customer. You advertisers out there don't whine about having to pay, after all I do not have to pay for junk mail sent by you and delivered by the USPS. Advertising by sending junk faxes has already been declared illegal and sets a precedent.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44

Re: Greed!

Metered billing can never be perfect unless they install software on your computer to track how much you actually download.

The issue is someone can send garbage data to your IP which will make it all the way to your modem before being dropped.
The ISPs software will view all of that as you were downloading. They have no way to verify what data being sent to your modem is legit.

If you know someones IP address you could easily cause them to get a lot of overage and the customer will have no way to prove they did not download anything and the ISP will blame P2P or a virus on their computer.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·CenturyLink
·Comcast
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Millenicom

Re: Greed!

Thank You r81984. I am pleased to see someone gets my point. That is why I want to be able to download a list of IP addresses that downloaded data to my modem during the billing period.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44

Re: Greed!

I used to work for a college internet tech support. We had 5GB daily caps. We found that one IP was doing DOS attacks on some IPs of people he gamed with or something stupid like that. Downloading was tracked in the switch so if someone sent garbage data it would count against the user.
The only way to get around inaccurate data is to force people to run a program on their computer that tracks downloading at the application layer of the OSI model. It would have be ran on every computer/device on their network.

There is no way to get around this and there is no way they will be able to force people to run some stupid ISP program on their computers especially since people will have gaming systems and non-mainstream OSes.

There just is no legit way to do metered billings on a TCP/IP network.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.
Nitroxide

join:2009-06-05

Re: Greed!

lol.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44

1 edit

Re: Greed!

Are you going to go through the monthly logs with a customer no matter how long that takes when they dispute the overages and the higher bill? Then try to determine what legit and what was not?

An lets not forget virus and spyware traffic and that the customer is computer illiterate and has no idea what a GB is.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are.

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

Cablevision

As long as Cablevision continues to reject metering then Verizon will have to cool its heels in those areas where they compete against them. I am actually surprised that CV is holding the line.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

BBBanditRuR
Dingbits

join:2009-06-02
Parachute, CO
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: Cablevision

said by n2jtx:

As long as Cablevision continues to reject metering then Verizon will have to cool its heels in those areas where they compete against them. I am actually surprised that CV is holding the line.
This and added threat of competition from muni's will keep them in check, if the competition can happen and muni's get developed. I'm not sure Cablevision's motives are entirely pure either, they must be contemplating the same thing other ISP's are with per-byte, metered etc... Unfortunately, from my point of view, they can throw their muscle behind it and force it anyway. With the lack of competition in some areas (mine for example), what is the little guy gonna do?
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
CV has a very small footprint as cable companies go, centered on a huge fiber POP (NYC area). They can hook up at Equinix, peer off 80% of their traffic after carrying it for at most 200 miles, and push the rest over low-cost carriers like Cogent at $4 per megabit.

On the subscriber side, they have a minimal number of cable subscribers per node, and have five DOCSIS channels on each node (one for WiFi/STBs, one for regular 15/2, one for Boost + Ultra, two for Ultra only). Comcast has five channels on my node, but they're serving many more customers. Comcast also has a national backbone network to keep running.

Because of the way CV works, they can offer uncapped low-priced service across 100% of their footprint and not care about usage. Even if someone pulled down 5TB of data over their 101/15 connection, CV's costs would still be below their revenues.

Comcast is getting to be the same way in terms of bandwidth costs, and their network is getting to be a high-quality mostly-peered beast. However they serve areas where competition is lower, and are thus able to keep 250GB residential soft caps without issue.
sharksfan3
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Hyde Park, NY

Re: Cablevision

When I went apartment hunting this last summer my first question to prospective complexes was who their cable provider is. Right or wrong... for me CV is a factor when determining "quality of life"

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

Re: Cablevision

said by sharksfan3:

When I went apartment hunting this last summer my first question to prospective complexes was who their cable provider is. Right or wrong... for me CV is a factor when determining "quality of life"
That would be a point for me too. As bad as everything is in the metropolitan NYC area with taxes, fees, congestion, etc. robust fast unmetered Internet service from either Verizon or CV is nice compensation.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

Buttset

join:2001-11-12
Ladson, SC
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast

Missing the point...

Did you miss this from Karl's opening statement?

The continuing ISP hints that network upgrades can't be funded by revenues made under the current flat-rate pricing model are also demonstrably false. Verizon, AT&T and Comcast's earnings reports and 10-K tax forms are easily viewable for anyone who doubts otherwise. Everyone likes to make more money of course, but by pretending this desire is about altruism, "fairness" or financial necessity (when your tax records prove otherwise) -- insults your customers' intelligence.
....especially the last sentence.
no_coin

join:2002-10-17
Tyngsboro, MA

What a concept - if it was applied to TV

Heck, why pay for 'all' those hundreds of channels when I only watch a few of them?

How about if I pay (metered) just for the time and channels that I watch.
ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·VOIPo
·RoadRunner Cable
·Northland Cable ..
·Packet8

Re: What a concept - if it was applied to TV

said by no_coin:

Heck, why pay for 'all' those hundreds of channels when I only watch a few of them?

How about if I pay (metered) just for the time and channels that I watch.
Couldn't have said it better myself...

Spiral
No Easy Way To Be Free.
Premium
join:2003-03-04
Baltimore, MD

bandwidth

I don't think all of the costs of bandwidth usage should be borne at the consumer end. Producers bear some responsibility for pushing high-bandwidth content where it is not needed.

I might click an article link on yahoo or cnn expecting to see at least a text summary, but instead it ends up being a video link, or a video starts playing immediately. I don't always need the richest delivery method to get the content I need.

John McClane
yippee ki yay
Premium
join:2005-03-19

Re: bandwidth

then yahoo may not be the place to get your news. try a newspaper? i think they still have those in print.
--
sbcglobal.net speedtest result 11/11/09 - 5256kbps

optemino

join:2009-10-13
Patterson, CA

Not Cool

I'm already paying for a half-as*ed connection at with an extremely low cap 5GB,

the ONLY way metered billing would make sense is to unrestrict speed and charge for the amount of data used.

their way of metered billing sounds like if they are trying to throttle your water service and charge you a different rate for the amount of water you use.

at least with our city, all water is 1 speed and you are charged for what you use. Not slower speed water with a usage cap...

if you can't do it with your other utilities, then you definitely can't make metered billing work!

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
Premium
join:2002-03-05

Time for the DOJ

That has nothing to do with fairness, and has everything to do with raising prices ahead of a video explosion, and protecting ISP TV revenues from Internet video. The model would also cushion the consistent erosion of Verizon's landline business, and help incumbent carriers retain power in an evolving market in which they, left unaided, organically become dumb pipe operators.
Which is exactly why companies like Verizon, Comcast, Time Warner, etc. should be forced to split their service offerings now before the real problems begin. Break up their ISP, television, and phone divisions-- force them to split apart from each other-- before they are able to wield the true power of their position, raise prices considerably, and force consumers into submission.

Having simultaneous control over the Internet pipe, telephone line, and cable TV is a bad idea that raises otherwise lower prices in at least one of the three arenas. Right now there is nothing preventing Verizon et al from artificially raising prices or placing caps on their Internet offering in an effort to drive people to using landlines and cable TV that might otherwise be dropped as redundant services. It forces a dependence on those services that otherwise would not exist, and stifles competition and innovation in the marketplace.

I'm usually a very big "hands off" person when it comes to government intervening in private markets, but something must be done when companies like Verizon and Comcast work their level best to scheme and steal away more money from consumers' wallets without offering them a single blessed thing in return.

One of our government's functions is to protect us from tyranny. And our legislators swore an oath to protect us from enemies, foreign and domestic. It's time for them to do their jobs.
--
To all liberals: I am NOT one of your parents, so get the heck out of my wallet. It's time for you to grow up and take some personal responsibility for taking care of yourselves, which means not relying on the government to give it all to you.

Ryno
The Wanderer
Premium
join:2001-04-07
Danielsville, PA

Re: Time for the DOJ

Your exactly right,

ISP's owning media outlets is scary. They offer a ton of online extras and internet on demand so we use the internet, then charge the crap out of us.

DHRacer
Fire Survivor

join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
Reviews:
·Charter
·Verizon Online DSL

Metered billing = no more ads

It's simple. If I pay for every byte that crosses my modem, then I should not have to pay for ad-bandwidth on webpages. Those ads are there to help defray the costs of that webpage, sure, but if I'm paying per-byte then all of a sudden I'm costing myself more money to access a site that is typically free (if ad-driven). That would result in internet surfers migrating away from heavy ad-driven sites because of the per-byte charges and suddenly ad-driven websites disappear. With the disappearance of ad-driven websites you'll wind up with websites that wind up charging subscriptions to pay their costs.

Next thing you know, the entire internet is no longer free after you pay your initial ISP charges for access to it.

I just see this cascading into a major change. And not a good one.


See 6 replies to this post

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Metered billing a RIAA/MPAA Wet Dream

With metered billing the RIAA/MPAA (R&M) will want a piece of the action for all of the evil downloaders. The R&M wants 100 dollars per kilobyte hour (KBH) but will settle for 5 dollars
per KBH. KBH has just been invented by Obama's Internet Czar. With this revenue stream they can afford to bitch even more about how much money they are loosing to the internet.
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25

A small point on data usage

I agree with every point made here against metered billing, except I think a nit needs to be picked regarding the 'cost of bandwidth'.

There have been several statements intimating that, even as the amount of data consumed increases, the costs to the provider remain ~constant. While this may be relatively correct for the core network, the same cannot be said for the edge, or 'last mile'.

As nodes become oversold, they must be upgraded or added to. In some cases, this may be a relatively inexpensive upgrade (if it is possible to upgrade existing facility, like go from OC-3 to OC-12, that could be considered inexpensive), but in other cases, an entire node may need to be added, and/or a distribution area re-engineered. That gets expensive. As plant ages, more maint. money gets spent (for both copper and fiber).

My only point here is that there are incremental costs associated with delivering more bandwidth and data.

And, also, that Rick is wrong.

anonsicles

@teksavvy.com

approval from:
aefstoggaflm See Profile

Re: A small point on data usage

ISPs have been getting away with overprovisioning their lines since the dawn of time.

They essentially had an internet arms race where speeds rose and rose, to the very limit of copper based technologies. 5000 households on a crappy node with 10mbit? No problem, because 80% of those households will use the line for maybe 5% of each day!

Now the ISPs have come to fear several things:

- the internet exaflood boogeyman that will make their copper infrastructure cry salty tears because people actually want to USE the service they are paying for

- the transition to internet based content delivery and communications that will nuke their tv and phone profits from orbit

Thus, they have no more incentive to raise speeds and the next economic shift would be to grow/maintain a large market share. But that requires some sort of product differentiation that users will jump on. Value is the next logical move, but none of these companies wants to have a price war.

This news article nails it; they see their self-induced "congestion" threat as an opportunity to lower the base price of internet services and then jack them back up on overages. They can create a false sense of competitive pricing and value without actually cutting prices.

This is the same sort of parasitic behaviour seen in the mobile industry, where they nickel and dime you for everything that could possibly be called a standalone feature. Even ones they aren't providing themselves - like tethering. And on top of that you have other mysterious charges, like the SAF, whose removal is announced every goddamn year.

The big flaw in all this is that users could be using bandwidth without actually using their computers. Unlike mobile charges measured in an understandable unit like "minutes" and "number of texts", you have kilobytes, megabytes and shit that 95% of households have no clue about.

They only understand these capacities in relative methods like "how long does it take me to download 1gb?" and "how big is a movie?". Except these relative measurements are different for everyone. A movie file can be anywhere from 300mb to 30gb.

I still can't understand a nation which allows people to get billed TENS of THOUSANDS a month for service that cost the company a few dollars to provide.

There are numerous solutions to the network congestion issue:

1. Ditch the fucking copper already. And you do this by mandating all new homes costing over 200k to be built with fiber. You also create a non-profit entity to build and maintain a national network, then wholesale it as many other countries have done.

2. You put the heavy users on lower speeds. A person is doing 750gb a month? Well, bump him down from 50mbit to 16mbit and the problem is solved. Hard caps should be kicked to the curb, because all lines have a natural cap imposed by the line speeds x 24/7.

3. Develop better technology for automatic node balancing. Often congestion for thousands of users can be attributed to just a few overloaded nodes, because of sudden subscriber influx in that area (college students moving in for example). This can happen even as there are underutilized nodes nearby.

Of course, none of these solutions would let an ISP bleed their customer dry.
apollo80

join:2002-01-31
Richmond, VA

It's a madhouse...

...A MADHOUSE!!!
chronoss2009
Premium
join:2008-09-23
kudos:2

haha AT&T will be having a field day

1st we go smack AT&T for being bad people then we get evil again ourselves ,

NO civility in corporations behavior is there.

MONEY MONEY MONEY
give as little service as possible and STEAL as much peoples cash as we can.

JUST DO IT and make it as expensive as you all can i say when you have 10 people per state with internet your gonna have to keep raising rates to cover that yacht you sail around in

we know what ends that cycle
NO CUSTOMERS AT ALL
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

screw metered, try hocking fios at current rates

most of their progress in sales have slumped since the increased stand-alone pricing and have no real competitve offer for VOIP with a dozen+ calling features for le$$. so what if the broadband is better.. that honeymoon is over and consumers do care about the bottom line. $150 cash back isn't all it's cracked up to be if your stuck in a 1-2 year contract. not that cable companies are any better, at least most of them (with a duopoly competitor) won't try to lock you into a contract like the telco will. rates also vary from market to market so, ymmv on how much of an extra discount you can get out of verizon, if any. competing against comcast, cox, or time warner isn't exactly the same as competing in NY metro with cablevision (some of the oldest deployments & cable-tv franchises since FTTP project got greenlighted). verizon is currently refocusing on wireless and having a bit of drama with at&t over QOS/phones.

sure, there are some of you who would *KILL* for have fios, where it currently is not.. but outside of their current commitments to build, good luck... never gonna get it is hard reality.

I support 3rd party carriers coming into the market-- espeically where the big 3 (at&t, verizon, comcast) fail to compete effectively, and/or fail to deploy FTTP/DOCSIS 3, by the end of 2009. These companies have had at least 5 years to get their deployment plans in place and almost all have scaled them back and broken certain commitments all the while earning huge profits & roi for their companies amist rate hikes, bandwidth shaping, caps, and selling/underserving bad last mile geographies. Clearly someone else can do it better.. but good luck getting startup money.. the banks arent chomping at the bit to lend after their free home loan scam which put the taxpayers on the hook for several hundred billion.

maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·DIRECTV

My connection....

Is 15 Mbps down and 2 Mbps, and I reach 95% or more of that pretty much any time of day, any day of the week.

How they are going to convince me that metered broadband will make that connection "better" is beyond me.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

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