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story category Verizon: Copper's Death Greatly Exaggerated
Takes back comments that they'll be all IP voice in 7 years...
(old news - 02:36PM Tuesday Jan 13 2009)
tags: dsl · coverage · business · Verizon FIOS · Verizon Online DSL
Earlier this week, Bloomberg News quoted Verizon CMO John Stratton as saying the telco plans to move to all IP voice within seven years. Now Verizon spokesman Eric Rabe says that's not the case, and that Verizon has announced no timeline in migrating users from the PSTN to VoIP. As we've previously reported, Rabe notes Verizon will be nudging all fiber/FiOS customers onto VoIP with the broad launch of FiOS Digital Voice, which he says should drop "fairly near term - 09-ish, probably first half."

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Verizon's VoIP efforts have been a little half-hearted, given they don't want to further erode already declining landline revenues. They do offer a Voicewing VoIP service, but they've stopped marketing it, according to Rabe. It's a balancing act for Verizon: push VoIP full throttle and kill off copper faster, or ease into it more slowly so they can milk landline income for as long as possible? They've chosen the latter.

The discussion here also raises some questions about what Verizon plans to do with the customers (many in rural areas) outside of the initial $24 billion FiOS deployment plan. According to Verizon CEO Ivan Seidenberg, what to do after Verizon hits their 18 million home target has not yet been decided -- and won't be until sometime next year.

Verizon will probably continue selling less profitable rural markets, like they just did with networks in Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. We're watching carefully to see how many rural/copper customers Verizon feels don't warrant the upgrade to fiber to the home, because they're in areas that don't provide them with a suitable return on their investment.

When it's all said and done, what percentage of Verizon customers won't see fiber to the home, including markets sold and markets left on DSL? 10%? 20%? 40%? Will Verizon deliver a DSL-specific VoIP product to those customers too, or will they continue fearing cannibalizing landline subscriptions in those markets? While copper is dying, you get the distinct impression that for many parts of America, it's going to be around for a very long time.

Update: Verizon also discusses this at their blog.

Related:
  1. Verizon: We've Neglected DSL
  2. Verizon To Release Broadband Uber Phone
  3. Verizon Reports Largest FiOS Additions To Date
  4. Stuck In Broadband No Man's Land
  5. Verizon Continues Proud History Of Denial
  6. Verizon: Cut Your Landline To Save Money
  7. Verizon Again Threatens Massachusetts Investment
  8. Verizon CEO Admits Landlines Are Dead
Forums » Verizon: Copper's Death Greatly Exaggerated
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Post a:

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

Cherrypicking

Copper is not dead because the telcos have universal service obligations.

Of course these are way outdated so it essentially allows them to cherrypick and make sure only the very profitable areas get FiOS.
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

Re: Cherrypicking

said by Eat Me See Profile :

Copper is not dead because the telcos have universal service obligations.

Of course these are way outdated so it essentially allows them to cherrypick and make sure only the very profitable areas get FiOS.
Very profitable areas are anywhere most customers are within six miles line distance from a Verizon central office. Areas where a significant number of customers are beyond six miles but most are still less than twelve miles Verizon will probably find profitable enough for FiOS eventually. Anyplace more rural than that Verizon will probably try to sell off.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Left on DSL??

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

When it's all said and done, what percentage of Verizon customers won't see fiber to the home, including markets sold and markets left on DSL? 10%? 20%? 40%?
That implies that those who are not in Verizon's target area for FIOS currently have DSL available. Such is not the case; many, if not most, have no broadband.

We'd be thrilled to be "left" with DSL.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

too confusing

So whats the difference between VZ's Voicewing rebrand, FIOS Digital Voice, and FIOS POTS?
bgraham

join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY
·Verizon FIOS


1 edit

Re: too confusing

Price.
Voicewing costs $25 tax = $30 per line

My Verizon POTS cost me $125 to $140 a month for 2 lines.

Verizon digital voice costs $45 or whatever.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: too confusing

Sounds sort of about right.

On AT&T it is (or was) pretty similar:

POTS: $40/month + $5 Canada ~= $58/month
former Call Vantage = $25/month + tax
Uverse voice (in the few Uverse arease that actually carry it) = $20-$40/month.

CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Re: too confusing

Wow -my AT&T costs me $31.50/mo or so...
alchav

join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA
Voicewing, is VoIP and your Telephone Number is built into an IP Address and uses more of the Data Network. FiOS POTS the Telephone Number is built into the Switch and uses the PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network.)
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

said by patcat88 See Profile :

So whats the difference between VZ's Voicewing rebrand, FIOS Digital Voice, and FIOS POTS?
Voicewing is VOIP service with the "first mile" over the public internet. POTS is over the Public Switched Telephone Network. FiOS Digital Voice will be probably be VOIP service with the "first mile" over a dedicated network just as cable digital voice is.

Somewhere in WV

@usps.gov

Verizon deal

Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them.
BigDog

join:2008-12-12
Montpelier, VT

Re: Verizon deal

i dont know that they would want to lose that income, could be wrong though.
bgraham

join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY
·Verizon FIOS

said by Somewhere in WV :

Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them.
That has to be true but over time the cheaper costs of maintaining fiber will trickle down to the consumer.

I am the lucky guy with the telco poles in my back yard and across the street is the POTS junction box for the neighborhood. Never a day goes by without 2 or 3 trucks working here.

hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
Premium
join:2005-06-29
clubs:
·QuantumVoice
·AT&T Southeast
·RoadRunner Cable

said by Somewhere in WV :

Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them.
They can force people to switch too. the line of: we are no longer supporting copper anymore in your area .

Give them a discount for FIOS the first few months and there you go.

Some Guy

@embarqhsd.net

Umm..

Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments?

You don't see Disney opening a theme park in Alaska or Donald Trump opening a Billion Dollar resort in Montana now do you?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Re: Umm..

Does Disney sue the hell out of anybody who tries to build their own theme part in Montana -- simply because Disney might want to someday? Not a very good metaphor...particularly since theme parks are not increasingly essential infrastructure.

Some Guy

@embarqhsd.net

Re: Umm..

What would you propose then?

A government takeover of the broadband industry?

I don't see the problem so many people on this board tend to have with capitalism.

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage


1 edit
said by Some Guy :

Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments?
Simple answer. In order to build out its network, Verizon needs access to public rights of way. In order to do that it negotiates with the states and municipalities that control those rights of way. Making it widely available is a concession that they have to agree to in order to access the rights of way. The whole thing is called a franchise, and the agreement is called a franchise agreement.

Furthermore, rights of way are usually private property or publicly owned spaces (such as roads) which property owners are forced to give access to utilities to run their infrastructure. It's not just free land. Since all taxpayers pay for roads and are required to give up rights of way via easements, it is only fair that the municipality or even the state require anyone that wants to use them make the services available to all.
dsless

join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Umm..

said by Eat Me See Profile :

said by Some Guy :

Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments?
Simple answer. In order to build out its network, Verizon needs access to public rights of way. In order to do that it negotiates with the states and municipalities that control those rights of way. Making it widely available is a concession that they have to agree to in order to access the rights of way. The whole thing is called a franchise, and the agreement is called a franchise agreement.

Furthermore, rights of way are usually private property or publicly owned spaces (such as roads) which property owners are forced to give access to utilities to run their infrastructure. It's not just free land. Since all taxpayers pay for roads and are required to give up rights of way via easements, it is only fair that the municipality or even the state require anyone that wants to use them make the services available to all.
If pots line are install there then access rights already.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

Telephone industry is not very creative.

The telephone industry has shown a lack of creativity. If they made the most of the copper outside plant they have in the ground, they could probably avoid the need to install fiber in many areas. In order to take full advantage of the copper in the ground the telephone companies must look at using copper pairs in a different way. In my view, would be to provide two pairs to each subscriber. The normal network interface would be replaced with modem/VOIP interface that would have the same two RJ-11 Jacks to deliver voice service as does a standard network interface and a Gig-E connection to deliver broadband. The entire bandwidth capacity of the existing pairs would be utilized by the hardware, optimized for the characteristics of typical outside plant. The designer could eliminate the need for local power by simplexing power to the converter over the two pairs. The question is what would be the maximum possible throughput on existing copper pairs if each pair was dedicated to a unidirectional signal. The best part about this arrangement is that it can be deployed on a per subscriber basis as demand necessitates and delays the need to install fiber.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

Couple of issues with your proposal.

In most areas outside plant does not have enough capacity to deliver two pairs to each customer.

Even if it did distance limits still apply. ADSL2 cranks up the upper DMT frequency bound from 1.1 to 2.2 MHz to deliver blazing speed but only very close to CO. Rather then using each pair in one direction it makes more sense to bond multiple channels. This is a less expensive performance upgrade path.

Operating Expense (OpEx) of fiber is substantially lower then copper. Actually pays for itself after a decade or so.

Copper does not have enough bandwidth to deliver multiple high definition video channels.

In my opinion fiber; point-to-point fiber or passive optical network (PON) are the only long term solutions. Fiber is not as costly as people think, it is cost effective in greenfield areas. The problems for Telcos is huge capital cost for massive upgrade to outside plant that has not been fully depreciated. That said I think Verizon will be in a very strong position a few years down the road. Makes me sad to be in NH where Verizon sold off New England to FairPoint.

/tom

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME

And they don't do this now because...
They can milk the infrastructure paid for by tax dollars (vs their own investment).

AT&T is attempting to get a bit of 'best of the both worlds' by reusing copper.
They don't _have_ to upgrade any customers - and can milk the CO to death, while tacking on VDSL on the last mile and milk those customers for IP services.

In Los Angeles area, they've milked it all...
Uverse for TV/Internet
POTS for phone

Allowing them to collect all the junk fees/taxes AND still charge/deliver internet+TV.
wev567

join:2006-02-25
Pittsburgh, PA

Nice idea, but the expense of Gig E NIDs, the complex coordination needed between the two pairs, and the lack of spare pairs in most areas are the most obvious problems. And how much extra power will be going thru these pairs? It's mostly 24-26 gauge wire.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

Delivering sufficient power to the subscriber interface in no problem if the circuit designer uses simplex power. This arrangement reduces the loop resistance. Simplex power uses a center tapped coupling transformer as the interface to the pair at each end of the loop. Power is transmitted at the office end and collected from the center tap of the transformer at the subscriber end. If the series loop resistance is 500 Ohms the resistance of each conductor is 250 Ohms. In a simplex circuit, for the purpose of DC current flow, each conductor is connected in parallel and forms a parallel circuit. Therefore a 500 Ohm loop becomes a 125 Ohm conductor for the purpose of DC Current flow (Two 250 Ohm conductors in parallel for DC). If the Office side of the circuit applies Minus 48 Volts to one center tap and Plus 48 Volts to the other center tap the technique can deliver 96 Volts at the subscriber interface circuit through one half the resistance of a normal loop. 50 Milliamps at 100 Volts delivers Five Watts of power. My proposal is suggested to serve as a stop gap measure to give the telephone companies time to install fiber.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..


1 edit

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

said by Mr Matt See Profile :

Delivering sufficient power to the subscriber interface in no problem if the circuit designer uses simplex power.
Sorry you lost me on this one.

What does the ability to delver DC power have to do with high speed data?

The last thing Telcos want to do is having to foot the bill to power CPE.

/tom
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq


1 edit

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

I was replying to wev567 regarding the available power at the subscriber interface. It would be interesting to note what the maximum baud rate that could pass through a pair if the entire bandwidth capacity of the pair was used for transmission in one direction. Please check out this link to wikipedia discussing baud rate vs bit rate:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud_rate

Various modulation techniques can be used to improve throughput on a copper pair. The real question is how much can technology improve the actual data rate.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

said by Mr Matt See Profile :

Various modulation techniques can be used to improve throughput on a copper pair. The real question is how much can technology improve the actual data rate.
I'm familiar with Shannon limit.

The problem with telephone circuits is crosstalk. It is relatively easy matter to increase transmit power to provide an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio at the receiver. Unfortunately doing so causes unacceptable crosstalk in adjacent pairs. Keep in mind your phone circuit is carried by a cable with hundreds or even thousands of other circuits.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

/tom

David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
·DIRECTV
·magicjack.com
·AT&T Midwest

said by Mr Matt See Profile :

The telephone industry has shown a lack of creativity. If they made the most of the copper outside plant they have in the ground, they could probably avoid the need to install fiber in many areas. In order to take full advantage of the copper in the ground the telephone companies must look at using copper pairs in a different way. In my view, would be to provide two pairs to each subscriber. The normal network interface would be replaced with modem/VOIP interface that would have the same two RJ-11 Jacks to deliver voice service as does a standard network interface and a Gig-E connection to deliver broadband. The entire bandwidth capacity of the existing pairs would be utilized by the hardware, optimized for the characteristics of typical outside plant. The designer could eliminate the need for local power by simplexing power to the converter over the two pairs. The question is what would be the maximum possible throughput on existing copper pairs if each pair was dedicated to a unidirectional signal. The best part about this arrangement is that it can be deployed on a per subscriber basis as demand necessitates and delays the need to install fiber.
Kind of like a really big CAT5e network?
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

Yes that is what I propose, not a rehashed ADSL protocol and not an Ethernet Protocol. I propose starting with a clean slate and determine the absolute bandwidth limit for copper pairs when used exclusively for unidirectional transmission of data. The new technology could be implemented alongside Plain Old Telephone Service and POTS + ADSL. The technology could be deployed as subscribers ordered service. Deploying service on a per subscriber basis would limit the problem with pair availability. The subscriber pair would terminate in a service cabinet like a Subscriber Line Carrier Cabinet for voice or a Digital Subscriber Line Access Module for ADSL. I learned that since the mid 1970's the Bell Operating Companies were deploying two pairs to each subscribers premises. The only areas where outside plant availability would be an issue is older areas where there are a significant number of bridge taps.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

Existing DSL technologies already get everything that can be gotten out of copper paris. Bunches and bunches of PhD theses and journal articles have been generated on this subject.

David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
I am thinking that would be distance limited wouldn't it? Thinking in the CCNA book that cat5e was good for 300ft?

Interesting theory none the less, I wonder if they hit the 300ft roadblock.

tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

said by David See Profile :

I am thinking that would be distance limited wouldn't it? Thinking in the CCNA book that cat5e was good for 300ft?
We are talking about two different animals here. Structured wiring used for Ethernet is limited to 100 meters (328 feet).

Using more complex modulation techniques will allow much longer cable. For example both DSL and T1 use voice grade pairs to deliver megabit service.

/tom

David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:

Re: Telephone industry is not very creative.

ahh, that's what I was thinking you guys were talking about at first, but I think I either confused myself, or matt confused me.
rdmiller

join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

Confusing

This is very, very, very confusing. What we need here is more speculation.
RchrdEllis

join:2007-06-11
Narberth, PA
·Verizon Online DSL

No more copper - big problem!

An often overlooked problem with FiOS is that your phone service is powered by your local (house) power with a battery backup that I believe has an 8 hour capacity. Various regions of our country have had multiple day power outages this year!
POTS (over copper) provides 50 volts of power from the central office with battery and emergency generator backup. This is one reason I have resisted signing up for FiOS. If I could get the FTTH without having to drop my copper I probably would have switched from DSL.

Madness
A flea circus at a dog show.

join:2000-01-05
Quincy, MA

1 edit

Re: No more copper - big problem!

What I curious about is whether one could get FiOS and still keep a copper line (in some cases)? Like what if someone (e.g. elderly, disabled) in the household had a Lifeline?
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: No more copper - big problem!

said by Madness See Profile :

What I curious about is whether one could get FiOS and still keep a copper line (in some cases)? Like what if someone (e.g. elderly, disabled) in the household had a Lifeline?
Lifeline service will work over FiOS.
Forums » Verizon: Copper's Death Greatly Exaggerated


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