 | | Cherrypicking Copper is not dead because the telcos have universal service obligations.
Of course these are way outdated so it essentially allows them to cherrypick and make sure only the very profitable areas get FiOS. | |
|
 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Re: Cherrypicking said by fifty nine:Copper is not dead because the telcos have universal service obligations. Of course these are way outdated so it essentially allows them to cherrypick and make sure only the very profitable areas get FiOS. Very profitable areas are anywhere most customers are within six miles line distance from a Verizon central office. Areas where a significant number of customers are beyond six miles but most are still less than twelve miles Verizon will probably find profitable enough for FiOS eventually. Anyplace more rural than that Verizon will probably try to sell off. | |
|
 |  |  PDXPLT join:2003-12-04 Banks, OR | Left on DSL?? said by Karl Bode:When it's all said and done, what percentage of Verizon customers won't see fiber to the home, including markets sold and markets left on DSL? 10%? 20%? 40%? That implies that those who are not in Verizon's target area for FIOS currently have DSL available. Such is not the case; many, if not most, have no broadband.
We'd be thrilled to be "left" with DSL. | |
|
 patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | too confusing So whats the difference between VZ's Voicewing rebrand, FIOS Digital Voice, and FIOS POTS? | |
|
 |  |
 |  |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: too confusing Sounds sort of about right.
On AT&T it is (or was) pretty similar:
POTS: $40/month + $5 Canada ~= $58/month former Call Vantage = $25/month + tax Uverse voice (in the few Uverse arease that actually carry it) = $20-$40/month. | |
|
 |  |  |  CylonRedPremium,MVM join:2000-07-06 Bloom County | Re: too confusing Wow -my AT&T costs me $31.50/mo or so... | |
|
 |  alchav join:2002-05-17 Palm Desert, CA | Voicewing, is VoIP and your Telephone Number is built into an IP Address and uses more of the Data Network. FiOS POTS the Telephone Number is built into the Switch and uses the PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network.) | |
|
 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | said by patcat88:So whats the difference between VZ's Voicewing rebrand, FIOS Digital Voice, and FIOS POTS? Voicewing is VOIP service with the "first mile" over the public internet. POTS is over the Public Switched Telephone Network. FiOS Digital Voice will be probably be VOIP service with the "first mile" over a dedicated network just as cable digital voice is. | |
|
 | | Verizon deal
Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them. | |
|
 |  | | Re: Verizon deal i dont know that they would want to lose that income, could be wrong though. | |
|
 |  bgraham join:2001-03-15 Smithtown, NY Reviews:
·Verizon VoiceWing
·Verizon FiOS
·VOIPo
| said by Somewhere in WV :
Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them. That has to be true but over time the cheaper costs of maintaining fiber will trickle down to the consumer.
I am the lucky guy with the telco poles in my back yard and across the street is the POTS junction box for the neighborhood. Never a day goes by without 2 or 3 trucks working here. | |
|
 |  Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T Southeast
| said by Somewhere in WV :
Verizon will most likely drop the copper when they are done installing FIOS to gain more profits. Drop the copper and they drop the maintenance and repair cost to maintain them. They can force people to switch too. the line of: we are no longer supporting copper anymore in your area .
Give them a discount for FIOS the first few months and there you go. | |
|
 | | Umm.. Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments?
You don't see Disney opening a theme park in Alaska or Donald Trump opening a Billion Dollar resort in Montana now do you? | |
|
 |  | | Re: Umm.. Does Disney sue the hell out of anybody who tries to build their own theme part in Montana -- simply because Disney might want to someday? Not a very good metaphor...particularly since theme parks are not increasingly essential infrastructure. | |
|
 |  |  | | Re: Umm.. What would you propose then?
A government takeover of the broadband industry?
I don't see the problem so many people on this board tend to have with capitalism. | |
|
 |  1 edit | said by Some Guy :
Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments? Simple answer. In order to build out its network, Verizon needs access to public rights of way. In order to do that it negotiates with the states and municipalities that control those rights of way. Making it widely available is a concession that they have to agree to in order to access the rights of way. The whole thing is called a franchise, and the agreement is called a franchise agreement.
Furthermore, rights of way are usually private property or publicly owned spaces (such as roads) which property owners are forced to give access to utilities to run their infrastructure. It's not just free land. Since all taxpayers pay for roads and are required to give up rights of way via easements, it is only fair that the municipality or even the state require anyone that wants to use them make the services available to all. | |
|
 |  |  dsless join:2001-05-16 Pittsburgh, PA Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Umm.. said by fifty nine:said by Some Guy :
Um... dumb question time... what exactly is wrong with a company wanting to make investments specifically in places where they are likely to see a return on those investments? Simple answer. In order to build out its network, Verizon needs access to public rights of way. In order to do that it negotiates with the states and municipalities that control those rights of way. Making it widely available is a concession that they have to agree to in order to access the rights of way. The whole thing is called a franchise, and the agreement is called a franchise agreement. Furthermore, rights of way are usually private property or publicly owned spaces (such as roads) which property owners are forced to give access to utilities to run their infrastructure. It's not just free land. Since all taxpayers pay for roads and are required to give up rights of way via easements, it is only fair that the municipality or even the state require anyone that wants to use them make the services available to all. If pots line are install there then access rights already. | |
|
 |
 |  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. Couple of issues with your proposal.
In most areas outside plant does not have enough capacity to deliver two pairs to each customer.
Even if it did distance limits still apply. ADSL2 cranks up the upper DMT frequency bound from 1.1 to 2.2 MHz to deliver blazing speed but only very close to CO. Rather then using each pair in one direction it makes more sense to bond multiple channels. This is a less expensive performance upgrade path.
Operating Expense (OpEx) of fiber is substantially lower then copper. Actually pays for itself after a decade or so.
Copper does not have enough bandwidth to deliver multiple high definition video channels.
In my opinion fiber; point-to-point fiber or passive optical network (PON) are the only long term solutions. Fiber is not as costly as people think, it is cost effective in greenfield areas. The problems for Telcos is huge capital cost for massive upgrade to outside plant that has not been fully depreciated. That said I think Verizon will be in a very strong position a few years down the road. Makes me sad to be in NH where Verizon sold off New England to FairPoint.
/tom | |
|
 |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | And they don't do this now because... They can milk the infrastructure paid for by tax dollars (vs their own investment).
AT&T is attempting to get a bit of 'best of the both worlds' by reusing copper. They don't _have_ to upgrade any customers - and can milk the CO to death, while tacking on VDSL on the last mile and milk those customers for IP services.
In Los Angeles area, they've milked it all... Uverse for TV/Internet POTS for phone
Allowing them to collect all the junk fees/taxes AND still charge/deliver internet+TV. | |
|
 |  wev567 join:2006-02-25 Pittsburgh, PA | Nice idea, but the expense of Gig E NIDs, the complex coordination needed between the two pairs, and the lack of spare pairs in most areas are the most obvious problems. And how much extra power will be going thru these pairs? It's mostly 24-26 gauge wire. | |
|
 |  |  |
 |  |  |  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
1 edit | Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. said by Mr Matt:  Delivering sufficient power to the subscriber interface in no problem if the circuit designer uses simplex power. Sorry you lost me on this one.
What does the ability to delver DC power have to do with high speed data?
The last thing Telcos want to do is having to foot the bill to power CPE.
/tom | |
|
 |  |  |  |  |
 |  |  |  |  |  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. said by Mr Matt:Various modulation techniques can be used to improve throughput on a copper pair. The real question is how much can technology improve the actual data rate. I'm familiar with Shannon limit.
The problem with telephone circuits is crosstalk. It is relatively easy matter to increase transmit power to provide an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio at the receiver. Unfortunately doing so causes unacceptable crosstalk in adjacent pairs. Keep in mind your phone circuit is carried by a cable with hundreds or even thousands of other circuits.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
/tom | |
|
 |  |
 |  |  |
 |  |  |  PDXPLT join:2003-12-04 Banks, OR | Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. Existing DSL technologies already get everything that can be gotten out of copper paris. Bunches and bunches of PhD theses and journal articles have been generated on this subject. | |
|
 |  DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL kudos:70 | I am thinking that would be distance limited wouldn't it? Thinking in the CCNA book that cat5e was good for 300ft?
Interesting theory none the less, I wonder if they hit the 300ft roadblock. | |
|
 |  |  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. said by David:I am thinking that would be distance limited wouldn't it? Thinking in the CCNA book that cat5e was good for 300ft? We are talking about two different animals here. Structured wiring used for Ethernet is limited to 100 meters (328 feet).
Using more complex modulation techniques will allow much longer cable. For example both DSL and T1 use voice grade pairs to deliver megabit service.
/tom | |
|
 |  |  |  DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL kudos:70 | Re: Telephone industry is not very creative. ahh, that's what I was thinking you guys were talking about at first, but I think I either confused myself, or matt confused me. | |
|
 | | Confusing This is very, very, very confusing. What we need here is more speculation. | |
|
 | | No more copper - big problem!
An often overlooked problem with FiOS is that your phone service is powered by your local (house) power with a battery backup that I believe has an 8 hour capacity. Various regions of our country have had multiple day power outages this year! POTS (over copper) provides 50 volts of power from the central office with battery and emergency generator backup. This is one reason I have resisted signing up for FiOS. If I could get the FTTH without having to drop my copper I probably would have switched from DSL. | |
|
 |  MadnessLike a flea circus at a dog show join:2000-01-05 Quincy, MA kudos:1 1 edit | Re: No more copper - big problem! What I curious about is whether one could get FiOS and still keep a copper line (in some cases)? Like what if someone (e.g. elderly, disabled) in the household had a Lifeline? | |
|
 |  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: No more copper - big problem! said by Madness:What I curious about is whether one could get FiOS and still keep a copper line (in some cases)? Like what if someone (e.g. elderly, disabled) in the household had a Lifeline? Lifeline service will work over FiOS. | |
|
 |
|