  Rob Veni, vidi, vici Premium join:2001-08-25 Kendall, FL
·Comcast
·AT&T Southeast
edit: June 7th, @09:16AM
| So what do the customers get? Verizon makes money and Goodmail makes money. What does the customer get? Spam?
Unless I am not entirely understanding this concept, it sounds like spammers (that's what they are, regardless of what title you give them) pay Verizon and Goodmail a fee to bypass Verizon's spamfilters and deliver their spam to the customers.
I'm afraid that customers won't see a discount on their bills either.
Great. So now not only do they have to put up with spam, but their own ISP makes money off of it too. Let's hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah, the spammers have won. | |
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 |   fireflier Coffee. . .Need Coffee Premium join:2001-05-25 Limbo
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: So what do the customers get? So will the ISPs then include a function to allow the consumer to automatically reject/filter all of that blue ribbon crap or will this be the cyber equivalent of ramming ads down our throats with no option to avoid it?
If they implemented this feature with an option to not pass goodmail approved email to the account then I suppose I wouldn't really care but my guess is there will be no such option--or they'll charge more for it.
What a clusterf**k! -- Wishes: When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor. --despair.com | |
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 |  |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: So what do the customers get? said by fireflier :So will the ISPs then include a function to allow the consumer to automatically reject/filter all of that blue ribbon crap or will this be the cyber equivalent of ramming ads down our throats with no option to avoid it? I'd like to see a sample set of headers. Presumably, they will include some kind of unique "mark" to allow the Verizon spamfilters to give them a pass. If the headers include such a "mark", Pegasus Mail, Mercury/32, and any other mail agent which can filter on any header line will be able to deal with those messages easily. | |
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 |  |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: So what do the customers get? Mebbe so, but it's also trivially easy for the filtering system to strip the header when it deposits the message into your mailbox (after the scanning is done, but before you see it). | |
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 |  |  |  |  NormanS Premium,MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: So what do the customers get? said by jester121 :Mebbe so, but it's also trivially easy for the filtering system to strip the header when it deposits the message into your mailbox (after the scanning is done, but before you see it). said by Rob :If that's the case, then spammers can just add that "mark" to their own headers, hence bypassing the filters! I can certainly distinguish the spam from the paid ads in Juno Mail. They are eminently filterable in mail clients. Alas, I would have to pay for POP3 access to Juno Mail. -- Norman ~Oh Lord, why have you come ~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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 |  |  |  |   nixen Rockin' the Boxen Premium join:2002-10-04 Carlisle, PA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by jester121 :Mebbe so, but it's also trivially easy for the filtering system to strip the header when it deposits the message into your mailbox (after the scanning is done, but before you see it). Maybe, but...
Said by article:
An incoming e-mail with a blue-ribbon envelope icon tells the customer that the sender has been accredited and that the message is from a trustworthy source. Something in the message has to produce that "blue-ribbon envelope icon". If that something ain't there, the MUA won't render it. So, all you have to do is set your rules up to auto-nuke any messages with that something in it. -- Everyday, thousands of new cars are delivered to their new owners with poorly-selected radio station presets. | |
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 |  |  |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| Re: So what do the customers get? said by Rob :]If that's the case, then spammers can just add that "mark" to their own headers, hence bypassing the filters! Not necessarily. It could be based on a white-list of "legit spammer" IP addresses. (e.g. 123.45.67.89 is ok to let through, but 23.45.6.78 isn't.) There really doesn't need to be anything else to it as far as outside spammers are concerned. Whether or not there is an internal "blue icon" flag is a different story. And any spammer that tries to set a "blue icon" flag from the outside could just be filtered out by Verizon as trying to muck with the system. | |
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 |  clecssuck
join:2002-01-23 Birmingham, AL | Hey they could offer thier customers a "service" for just $2 a month that blocks all the junk. Then they're getting money on both ends! | |
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 |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| Re: So what do the customers get? Then turn around and offer a Super-Premium Certified Spammer program to get past the block if the "legit spammers" pay Verizon more. Then a Super-Premium block for those customers who are willing to pay more not to see Super-Premium messages. Then....
Well, you get the idea.  | |
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 |   Kxpuc
join:2004-05-04 Houston, TX | good thing i never use my ISP mail system. I think i've checked my RR mail 3 times in 2 years | |
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 |   ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·NextWeb
edit: June 7th, @09:19AM
| Re: So... When you're Comcast and raise the price $14 then put a line item under it saying you get a $14 bundling discount for having their crappy CATV service.
That is unless you actually expect someones bill to go DOWN after a discount. If that is the case you're out of luck.
When you're Comcast and raise the price $14 then put a line item under it saying you get a $14 bundling discount for having their crappy CATV service.
That is unless you actually expect someones bill to go DOWN after a discount. If that is the case you're out of luck.
All of these major ISPs are penny pinching bloodsucking whores and Verizon is among the worst of them.
-- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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 |   verolom
join:2002-03-23 Eatontown, NJ | No, see, Verizon and other ISPs implementing this "spam filtering" service will likely ADD a fee to your bill for providing it.
Why can't we just get a pipe provider? Why, oh why? | |
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 |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | You might already be getting that price reduction by not being charged more to build out new infrastructure and the increased service offerings. | |
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 |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: So... Ok, so how much are you spending for your 30/2 FiOS service compared to what you paid for 1.5/256 DSL three years ago? Advancement isn't free, easy, or fast. If you don't want the service providers making deals with content providers, then be ready to see that 11% price increase move to a value much more substantial. | |
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 |  |  |  |   Karl News Guy join:2000-03-02
Host: Road Runner PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
edit: June 8th, @10:39AM
| Re: So... quote: Advancement isn't free, easy, or fast.
I'm sorry, who's getting broadband for free?
Customers pay plenty for incumbent broadband. Verizon makes plenty off of landline services and over time has received countless subsidies.
Systems like the Goodmail are enacted due to a need to impress investors with improved quarter by quarter results, not out of a need for fiscal survival. These incumbent operators are doing just fine, and the idea that consumers who pay plenty each month (and in many non-competitive markets increasingly get less -- no newsgroups, traffic shaping, less functional DNS, less privacy) are "lucky" they aren't paying more is just boardroom think.... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: So... said by Karl :quote: Advancement isn't free, easy, or fast.
I'm sorry, who's getting broadband for free? I didn't say broadband, I said advancement  said by Karl :Systems like the Goodmail are enacted due to a need to impress investors with improved quarter by quarter results, not out of a need for fiscal survival. These incumbent operators are doing just fine, and the idea that consumers who pay plenty each month (and in many non-competitive markets increasingly get less -- no newsgroups, traffic shaping, less functional DNS, less privacy) are "lucky" they aren't paying more is just boardroom think.... I guess I'm a boardroom kinda guy. In today's market driven world, fiscal survival is improved quarter by quarter results. If you don't like it, more and more companies will need to be taken private....but then you run the risk of corporate raiders shredding the company and selling it for scrap. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   Maxo Your tax dollars at work. Premium,VIP join:2002-11-04 Tallahassee, FL clubs: | Re: So... So when your ISP screws you in the bum you shrug it off knowing it's for their investor's own good? Last I checked, we are the customer, and we are the ones who are suppose to be served. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: So... said by Maxo :So when your ISP screws you in the bum you shrug it off knowing it's for their investor's own good? No, if I get "screwed in the bum" I make a decision to no longer financially support (i.e. use the competitor) the screwer. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: So... said by openbox9 :No, if I get "screwed in the bum" I make a decision to no longer financially support (i.e. use the competitor) the screwer. Oh you switch to the other DSL providers or Cable providers or...
... Wait. What other providers? -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·Mediacom
| Re: So... If I'm dissatisfied with my cableco, I'll switch to my telco. If I'm dissatisfied with my telco, I'll switch to various combinations of WISPs, VoIP providers, sat tv, 3G cellular providers, or....wait for it, if I'm screwed hard enough by all of them, I'll do my own personal cost/benefits analysis and may very well choose to live without some services. | |
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 |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| They'll just claim that the next price increase won't be quite as steep as it would have been.
"Sure we're raising all of our prices by $10 a month, but if we didn't do all of these things we would have raised it by $20 a month. See how it's reduced your bill? On an unrelated note, bills will now include a $6.72 Federal Jabberwocky Excise Tax and a $3.28 Malarky Generator Fee." | |
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 |   cableties Premium join:2005-01-27 Levittown, PA
| Re: Don't care I have Fios but I never use the (email) account. Yet, I get dictionary spams (down the list). And a few odd ones. I have set the filtering on at the web control page.
I bet Verizon offers a fee to block this too! Greed.
Does this mean that these ISPs can now sue software makers that thwart this (oxymoron) "legit spam"? And who's to verify that the spammers are legit?
G-bless Gmail and Yahoo.  | |
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  newview Ex .. Ex .. Exactly Premium join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD
·Vonage
| I suspect the only way to express our displeasure . . . at this turn of events is to begin refusing ALL mail from those mailers who have implemented the "Certified Email" (Legit Spammer) system.
Yes . . . immediately begin refusing ALL mail from AOL & Yahoo. Basically send that message that we will NOT allow you to determine for us what is legit spam to eat. -- Ö¿Ö The Rules of Spam | Maryland's Newest Anti-Spam Law Where are we going? And what's with the hand basket? | |
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 |   ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·NextWeb
| Re: I suspect the only way to express our displeasure . . . I wish my 3rd party email provider 1and1 gave me the option to bounce email (not just drop them in a spam box) from specific domains.
My old Prodigy dial up game me options to bounce email to domain, use their blackmail lists, block overseas email etc.
I need to hunt down another cheap email provider. -- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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 |  |  See 6 replies to this post |
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  meskinct This space for rent Premium join:2002-01-07 Danbury, CT clubs:
| What is fake e-mail? I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. "They want an end to the frustration of having to guess whether an e-mail is real or not." 
All e-mail is real. How legit the content inside of the message is the questionable part.
The idiots are trying to protect the idiots! -- Rich. My Website - ThisIsPico.Com including the AT&T/SBC Northeast/SNET Status Page and Graphs | |
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 |   fireflier Coffee. . .Need Coffee Premium join:2001-05-25 Limbo
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: What is fake e-mail? said by meskinct :The idiots are trying to protect the idiots! The *GREEDY* idiots are trying to convince the idiots this is protection. . . | |
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 Stumbles
join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL
| Your next. Hee certified email..... what an obtuse marketing spin that really means...... yes average joe email user we will get around to charging you also.... eventually..... we just haven't come up with a bullshit marketing spiel..... that you would believe. | |
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  Jim Gurd Sorry Roger, you tiger now. Premium join:2000-07-08 Plymouth, MI | Doomed to fail I don't see companies ponying up the money for this. If nobody pays the system doesn't work. Most people will just whitelist people and companies they know. | |
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  SYNACK Just Firewall It Premium,Mod join:2001-03-05 Venice, CA
·Comcast Formerly ..
Host: Networking Virtual Private Ne.. Netgear ZyXEL
| I don't see the spam spin yet It seems everybody is jumping on this as if every spammer can now buy himself around the spam filters. This is not how I read it!
Quote from »www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co···50.html:
"The service is designed to certify credit card statements, e-commerce receipts and other communications with existing customers. It does potentially give a boost to larger corporations and groups that can afford the charge, but Gingras says their messages are the ones most likely to be mischaracterized as junk."
The primary purpose of the system is to ensure that existing legitimate non-spam e-mail from trustworthy companies does not accidentally end up in the spam folder. They make it very clear that it is not designed for massmarketers or advertising campaigns to random recipients.
(Of course I am questioning the point that it should cost anything to the sender.)
A certification process, if well implemented, is probably a good thing. It means that these companies are in constant fear of loosing the certification if they don't play nice. 
What we will see of course will be spammers that will fake some blue certification ribbon somewhere in the body of the e-mail. Hopefully, the filters will be good enough to weed these out. | |
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 blips
join:2001-04-17 Addison, IL edit: June 7th, @09:44AM
| Mail lists So that means all the mailing lists I subscribe will not be able to get to my e-mail account without paying? | |
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 |   plk bo may sleep in loft Premium join:2002-04-20 Ogden, IA
edit: June 7th, @10:00AM
| Re: Mail lists Sounds like a way to blackmail nearly all corporations into a mail delivery fee. Maybe not at first....but I'll bet it quickly turns into one.
This will quickly turn into a net neutrality issue.
Spammers will have no part of such a system. But they may "play along" to make it look like they will. Just to learn ways to fake it.
Reminds me of the "Drug tax Stamp"
-- Thermaltake 2000a/Asus P4C-e/p4 3.4/ocz3500 2x512/WD.2x200g/raptor2x74 raid 0/ATI 9600/APC sua 1500/Logitech z-680/ Samsung 213t LCD/MX 1000 | |
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 |  |  blips
join:2001-04-17 Addison, IL
| Re: Mail lists said by plk :Sounds like a way to blackmail nearly all corporations into a mail delivery fee. Unfortunately, some of the lists I'm on are charity orginizations that will not be able to pay money to send out information. | |
|
 rdmiller
join:2005-09-23 Richmond, VA | This is for banks and credit card companies Banks, utilities and credit card companies need to know for sure that when they send you a statement via email, that it actually gets delivered.
That's all this is. Nothing more. Nothing less. | |
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 |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| Re: This is for banks and credit card companies If that's the case then e-mail is the wrong medium for them to use. SMTP has never been a 100% certain system, and never will be. For that matter neither is the US Postal "Service", unless you pay for signature/delivery confirmation.
It's a lot more than what you say, and also a lot less.  | |
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 |  eljay001
join:2004-03-17 South Portland, ME
·Great Works Internet
| That's a good idea, but I can't see a tightwad bank paying for something like that. They'll tell you when you sign up for e-statements that you need to add yadda@yaddayadda.com to your whitelist or whatever, and that's about as far as they'll take it. | |
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 unoriginal
join:2000-07-12 San Diego, CA | Yet another great reason to have your own domain One of the best moves I have made with regards to my internet access was to get my own domain. Costs me $9/yr to register it and about $3/mo for a place to get my email. I only wish I had done it sooner. | |
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  jbob Reach Out and Touch Someone Premium join:2004-04-26 Little Rock, AR
·AT&T Southwest
·Comcast
| Legit bouncing now? I know that bouncing is typically frowned upon unless you know for sure the bounced message will go back to the sender but wouldn't seeing a "Blue Seal" on one of these certified emails be enough to bounce these messages? Guess it'll all depend on what's in the headers. | |
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 |  cghh
join:2001-01-15 Milpitas, CA
edit: June 7th, @05:10PM
| Re: Legit bouncing now? said by jbob :I know that bouncing is typically frowned upon unless you know for sure the bounced message will go back to the sender but wouldn't seeing a "Blue Seal" on one of these certified emails be enough to bounce these messages? Guess it'll all depend on what's in the headers. The bouncing being referred to is having an SMTP server refusing to accept the message based on whatever criteria it wants. This is VERY different from sending a "bounce" message to a (probably forged) From: (or any other) header.
And concerning filtering on the "blue seal" header, why wouldn't they just have their server strip this header out before sending it to the (POP3/IMAP/WEB/whatever) client? | |
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 Mele20 Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI
| Won't affect me I have Road Runner but I never get spam in my RR email accounts. I DO get spam in my dslr account. So, if RR implements this it won't affect me. I don't quite understand why it bothers anyone. Who opens email that is not from someone or some business that you know? I never open spam so it is not a big deal to me. Why does Verizon think people will open the spam they let through? Spam is spam so why would any spam ever be opened? -- "If you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy." Ross Anderson in "`Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions"
»www.msfirefox.com/ | |
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 |   Grail Knight Who Dares Wins Premium join:2003-05-31 USA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Won't affect me quote: Who opens email that is not from someone or some business that you know? Why does Verizon think people will open the spam they let through? Spam is spam so why would any spam ever be opened?
Maybe because not everyone that receives email through Verizon* is as enlightened as you are about spam.
*Insert name of any ISP | |
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