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Verizon Neglecting Copper For FiOS
Union workers say uncompetitive networks are deteriorating...
by Karl Bode Monday 11-Jun-2007 tags: dsl · Fiber · coverage · business · telco
Verizon union employees in Virginia say the state's copper (POTS, DSL) network is in serious disrepair because the company directs the majority of its resources and attention to selective FiOS deployment. According to workers, the copper plant is "deteriorating badly" and is "stretched to the limits." Some noisy lines and other problems are simply being ignored.

The condition to which (Verizon's copper network) has deteriorated is no accident but a conscious business decision...
-CWA
Workers say that preventative maintenance programs have been abandoned, and they're being asked to implement band-aid repairs -- which are meant to be temporary but are left permanently. The workers are also complaining that the tools they once relied on to support the DSL network are no longer available.

"The condition to which it has deteriorated is no accident but a conscious business decision, since the examples we have given are not isolated problems, but hold true all over the commonwealth," says Charles Buttiglieri of the Communications Workers of America. CWA says they support FiOS, but fear losing less profitable customers to competitors.

In other words, they don't want more FairPoint-esque sell offs of unprofitable regions, which would likely mean less work, fewer lucrative contracts and potential layoffs.

We've previously reported how a deteriorating copper network has also been a complaint of the West Virginia Public Service Commission's consumer advocate division. "To finance expansions in New York and northern Virginia, [Verizon is] pulling money and resources from West Virginia, where it doesn’t face competition," says the PSC.

Customer complaints in West Virginia have soared 60% since 2001.

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PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1

Roll It Out Faster!

Full steam ahead, lets that get that fiber run.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

Re: Roll It Out Faster!

...and for the people in areas not scheduled for FiOS deployment... screw them?

Yeah, let all the Verizon DSL customers' lines get worse and worse... no need to maintain the copper for all those customers, right?

It's ok though! The few outweigh the many... wait...
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Roll It Out Faster!

said by dadkins:

...and for the people in areas not scheduled for FiOS deployment... screw them?

Yeah, let all the Verizon DSL customers' lines get worse and worse... no need to maintain the copper for all those customers, right?

It's ok though! The few outweigh the many... wait...
You know what I could care less about existing DSL customers. Verizon just laid FiOS in my area because I couldn't even get DSL. So as far as I'm concerned no service has greater importance than old service.

Perhaps they shouldn't abandon things out right but at the same time I don't feel abandond anymore now that I can get something in competition with Cox here (besides lame sat. service).
--
»www.fairtax.org

PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
No, roll it wherever the plant conditions warrant replacement along side the schedule areas.
--
Mass Transit Sucks!

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

Re: Roll It Out Faster!

Where was that... New Hampshire? Where Verizon just plain sold their DSL customers out?

Don't want to maintain the copper... sell it!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

Re: Roll It Out Faster!

said by dadkins:

Don't want to maintain the copper... sell it!
Tell that to the union's who won't let them. (Again a Fairpoint example)

NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T CallVantage
said by PhoenixDown:

Full steam ahead, lets that get that fiber run.
Already have mine....True Qam

stomp357

join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA
If your in a city that will never get fiber deployment?

cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

WW2 wires...

From my experience, much the pole-mounted punchboxes and trunks (in my old neighborhood) date back to the late 40's and 50's. The trunk has seen its day: cracks, fatigue, oxidation...who would want to replace the copper with more?
I wonder how many households do not have a cellphone?
So, what is the point of maintenance when you will eventually replace the mains with glass?
(One of my techs, er I mean Verizon techs, would come out every spring and fall to repunch the noisey lines. That has to cost ALOT...in labor alone...)

tc1uscg

join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI

1 edit

Re: WW2 wires...

said by cableties:

I wonder how many households do not have a cellphone?
So, what is the point of maintenance when you will eventually replace the mains with glass?
(One of my techs, er I mean Verizon techs, would come out every spring and fall to repunch the noisey lines. That has to cost ALOT...in labor alone...)
Here we go again, someone who thinks cell phones are the answer to everything. I can't wait till the first fiber cut that shuts down a large area of VZ's network for a few hours. Including TV.. OH MY GOD! What do we do now? Wait, we can call aunt milly and.. oh darn, that vz cell isn't working because the lone cell site that covered our area is dead due to the fiber that carried that call from the pop site to the CO has gone dark.. Now what? CALL SAM on the nations most reliable network!!!

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
said by cableties:

From my experience, much the pole-mounted punchboxes and trunks (in my old neighborhood) date back to the late 40's and 50's. The trunk has seen its day: cracks, fatigue, oxidation...who would want to replace the copper with more?
Understandable, but not really the point. The point is that they have regular customers who have POTS and DSL services on that existing infrastructure, and in areas where they have not begun installing FIOS. By refusing to maintain the infrastructure, these people are in effect abandoned... But I'm sure they are still being billed. As the line conditions worsen, the DSL service degrades and becomes slow and eventually not-sustainable. And let's not even think about dial-up over noisy lines---- uggghhh

There's nothing wrong with deploying FIOS, but you need to keep your existing infrastructure in decent shape until you've replaced it. Then retire it. Not before!
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
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join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

Says a group who stands to make money

I always take the word of someone or a group who stands to make a profit with a grain of salt.
--
Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

I would agree, but you can take the customer's word.

"Customer complaints in West Virginia have soared 60% since 2001."

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

1 edit

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

Since 2001...the number of customers could have increased 60% since 2001. If I have 100 customers in 2001 and 150 in 2007, I would expect, if everything is the same to have a 50% increase in the number of complaints because I have a 50% increase in the number of customers.

The question would be has the rate of complaints PER SUBSCRIBER (or per 1000 subscribers) changed appreciably since 2001.
--
Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

good point, but chances are their voice customers have DECREASED (say from 100 to 75). so reverse your point and that's the situation.


ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

1 edit

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

True...who knows what the real story is. But I'm sure I'm not going to get it from the telco or their union.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

ok, but you are also willing to ignore or discount west virginia's complaints?

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

2 edits

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

As I see it from the VZ forums, complaints are nothing new...meaning I don't see any evidence that VZ is purposely letting copper go to hell to get people to get FTTH or any other purpose.

pfak
Bow before me for I am root
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Vancouver, BC
Reviews:
·TELUS
·Shaw
Aren't the union employees the ones that are working on the lines? Aren't they the ones directly stuck in the middle of this mess?

It doesn't really benefit them to whine and complain about the copper, because there is plenty of work for them on the fiber side of the business - but I believe they're trying to inform their customers to what is really happening behind the scenes.

This is however not limited to Verizon, providers up in Canada (eg. TELUS) are leaving their copper in horrible disrepair, and have been skipping preventative maintenance on copper since at least 2002.

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

They could be trying to make MORE work for them (them being the union).
Whome

join:2005-10-10
Newbury Park, CA
Here is the REAL story, Verizon is not spending money on copper plant, unless the repair or addition is absolutely necessary or mandated, Period. Wirelines are a shrinking business and they will not invest in a shrinking business, so what I read in the article is true. All spending is going towards FiOs, any area that will not turn a profit with FiOS will be sold off. This is a calculated business decision. Wall street is looking at their stock and that mean FiOS.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
said by ColorBASIC:

If I have 100 customers in 2001 and 150 in 2007, I would expect, if everything is the same to have a 50% increase in the number of complaints because I have a 50% increase in the number of customers.
Heh, but your company would really have to be screwing up royally to have 100% of every new customer complaining, don't you think?

If you gained 10,000 customers and also had 10,000 complaints I don't think that's much to be proud of.

I'm sure the CWA is concerned about its members being laid off because of the lack of work caused by Verizon refusing to maintain the infrastructure, and rightly so.... but the customers don't have any vested interest, and they seem to be saying "Things are going to hell here with Verizon"
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

1 edit

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

No, percentage increase. If you have 1/3 of the people complaining at 100 customers (33) and 1/3 of the people complaining at 150 customers (50), that isn't 100% of the increase complaining.

Other than CWA claims, I'm not seeing any evidence that Verizon is "refusing" to maintain their copper.
--
Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

1 edit

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

said by ColorBASIC:

No, percentage increase. If you have 1/3 of the people complaining at 100 customers (33) and 1/3 of the people complaining at 150 customers (50), that isn't 100% of the increase complaining.

Other than CWA claims, I'm not seeing any evidence that Verizon is "refusing" to maintain their copper.
fact: wire line subscriptions for telcos are down.
fact: west virginia noted 60% increase in complaints.

math: 60% increase in complaints = 60% more complaints now. it's not that difficult to connect the dots unless you have motivation not to.

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

2 edits

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

I looked at the article, where are you getting 60% increase in complaints from. I missed it. But I'm a bit distracted listening to the WWDC keynote and didn't reread the article word-for-word.

I also missed in the article where wire line subscriptions are down. I've seen general articles about POTS losses but I've seen general articles about massive DSL adds. I'm also not seeing what the general type of complaint is (bad POTS service vs bad DSL service, vs customer service vs billing, vs missed appointments).

I'm not doubting that telco service sucks, which is why I'm with Time Warner and not Verizon FiOS...but I am just not connecting the dots between what is claimed in the article and Verizon refusing to maintain copper.

Seems they/you are drawing a conclusion (the "refusals") that isn't the only explanation for the complaints; meaning those dots there are pretty far apart.

All I'm seeing is the union worker claims...not of which substantiated by a source that doesn't stand to make some money either way.
--
Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire
Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

Not our fault that you have no clue as to what is happening with Verizon Copper Plant. Maybe if you took off your anti-Union goggles you might actually see this as the customer service issue it actually is.

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

1 edit

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

Sucky customer service is a different issue than "refusing" to upkeep the copper.

But sorry if I don't take the Union at their word...we know how they're so truthful and have only the customer's interest at heart and all.

--
Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire

ghopper

join:2004-06-28
Everett, WA
If you had an increase from 100 to 150, you would have a 67% increase, not 50. This isn't a statistics class so I'll spare details, but if you saw a 67% increase (or 50% increase), statistically you actually have a greater problem since the bell curve will govern the rate of customer complaints.

You are right that the meaningful number is a compairson of the rates (per 1000 customers or what ever metric you want to use) not overall complaints.

ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA

2 edits

Re: Says a group who stands to make money

No, 100 to 150 is a 50% increase.

150 - 100 = 50

100 / 50 = .5

.5 = 50%

or

100 + (50% * 100) = 150

100 + 50 = 150
xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

This makes me

Feel all warm and fuzzy. I'm moving in the next few weeks back into former Adelphia (Now Comcast) country and have two choices. Comcast 4/384 or Verizon (or resold Verzion) 3/768. FIOS may or may not be deployed there in the near future.
So that pretty much eliminates the DSL options, now doesn't it. Well, can always give them a shot just for fun.
--
Retaking our country one election at a time.

Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Austin, TX
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

Re: This makes me

Comcast doesn't offer 4/384 on new/moved accounts anymore. The cheapest package is 6/384 with Powerboost down and (probably) up.
--
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA

Re: This makes me

That is odd, I just called yesterday about it. $44.95 for max speed of 4/384. Next was the 6/384.
--
Retaking our country one election at a time.

Paladin
Sage of the light

join:2001-08-17
Chester, IL

What about Rural areas?

I'd say Illinois is one of the few states where I have heard NOTHING of FIOS deployment. It may be time to call 140 West St. and find out a good explanation of what the heck is going on. I'm wondering if we aren't going to be a sell off in the Verizon territory in far southern Illinois. In that case, we should build our own municipal fiber optic network and be done with it.
--
First rule of fiber optics: you do not talk about fiber optics!

See 7 replies to this post

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

I'm in a FIOS area..

Had Fios installed for my aunt then I moved and no Fios but crappy copper.. but now my 1 year is up with Verizon and it's time to switch.. I can't take the random disconnects or craptastic speeds not able to go over 50kb/s

Julio
Bachatero y Que?
Premium
join:2003-03-19
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1

Re: I'm in a FIOS area..

Do you need a room mate?

jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

Re: I'm in a FIOS area..

Screw that -- does your aunt need a roommate? She's the one who already has the fiber.

Julio
Bachatero y Que?
Premium
join:2003-03-19
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1

Re: I'm in a FIOS area..

said by jester121:

Screw that -- does your aunt need a roommate? She's the one who already has the fiber.
lol good point.
--
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The internet is a series of tubes..

MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX

Shocking?

I live in a area where they have let copper deteriorate (Ex-GTE) and known it for almost 10 years.
--
Team Discovery-Join the fight
Dexter9999

join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ

Re: Shocking?

I put up with an noise on my line for 2 months while waiting for the Verizon underground crew to come replace my cooper that had gone bad. Lots of promises to call me back and give me an idea when they would come, but never got any information. FIOS not available for another year in my neighborhood, so now I have phone service through my cable company.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

Copper must die.

Copper=CLECs=rats that whacked Ma.

quote:
Come out and take it, you dirty, yellow-bellied rat, or I'll give it to you through the door.

tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

Opportunity for cablecos!

This is an opportunity for cable companies to fill the void! Once customers get addicted to NOT paying the slurry of taxes, fees and surcharges for POTS copper phone lines they'll never go back! Probably not even for FIOS!

brooklynman4

join:2004-09-07
Brooklyn, NY

Its true

I could tell when i get an outage every month or every other month they forget to get me back when they do there upgrades.
ElJay

join:2004-03-17

I thought Verizon was the best thing since sliced bread?

...Or at least that's what the unions up here in New England are telling us in regards to the Fairpoint sale.
penawab2007

join:2007-03-28
Old Town, ME

No problem in the lobstah state!

What is all the hub-bub? Here in Maine, where we have state of the art lines in every town and back bush, Verizon has kept the phone lines in tip-top shape and t6he DSL is the best. Now a fine company called Fairpoint is coming in and we're all excited, looking forward to that same reliable service, for many years to come. We don't even know what FIOS stands for, and don't even want it. I guess we're the exception, from what I've read.

*snicker*
blazecom

join:2005-12-05
Columbia, MO

Gotta love the big boys

see the problem is that we will always need copper, but they fail to see that within the next 50 years not everything will be fiber... so sad that a company this big has a closed mind.... NEVERMIND THEY ALL DO!
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here
kudos:1

So...

Uverse isn't looking that bad now, is it?
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

Re: So...

said by bogey780:

Uverse isn't looking that bad now, is it?
Uverse was never looking bad NOW.. It's looking bad in 5 years..

Fortunately they should be able to leverage it into full FTTH, at least from what I've heard.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Re: So...

said by Ahrenl:

Uverse was never looking bad NOW..
uh, unable to watch/record more than 1 HD channel at once. that's pretty bad.
bogey780

join:2004-03-19
Here
kudos:1
FTTC FTW...

Seriously... VDSL2 is great. Has the bandwidth of FiOS with all the benefits of FTTN.

Rob A
Jets AFC Championship
Premium
join:2005-01-17
Pompton Plains, NJ

Please bring me fiber!

So many TV and Radio commercials for Fios, yet still no fios here!
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Please bring me fiber!

said by Rob A:

So many TV and Radio commercials for Fios, yet still no fios here!
Tell me about it! Verizon's Fios deployment travels in the the low trucking gears slow, slower, and REALLY F---king SLOW!!!

Fortunately my town is a picked cherry! Doesn't mean that if Verizon pisses me off to no end that I wouldn't jump ship for the cable company!!
DemonChicken

join:2006-10-15
Boon, MI

Re: Please bring me fiber!

Good thing i dont have DSL or fiber.

I bet ill get at least 3 MOVE YOU RETARD replies.

I cant move. And im pissed.

cmcgilton

join:2001-03-14
Stow, OH

Isn't Just Verizon - The Same Situation Exists With Others

This isn't just a problem with Verizon, it's a problem with many ILEC's.
rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA

oh well

and here i didnt think verizon actually ever really maintained the lines/

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