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Verizon: No DSL for You, Now Do us a Favor...
Un-Served MA towns don't believe Verizon's rhetoric
by Karl Bode Tuesday 22-Aug-2006 tags: dsl · legal · Video · competition · coverage · business · Politics
We've written how rural Shutesbury and Leverett, Massachusetts have been trying for years to get DSL or cable broadband service, something neighbors as close as 300 feet away already enjoy. Local Aron Goldman, who has been leading the efforts to wire the towns, writes us to note that after years of ignoring the town's requests for broadband, Verizon has sent PR letters pushing the idea of a statewide franchise system, which, unlike existing cable franchises, would eliminate any requirements that these companies deploy DSL or Fios to rural areas.

Note to Verizon lobbyists and PR execs: selling localities you already refuse to serve with DSL on the idea of eliminating franchise build-out requirements for your next-gen services is an uphill climb, no matter how many times you use the word "competition."

Needless to say, Goldman isn't amused, and sent us his testimony in a recent State hearing over the matter. "We would eagerly support Verizon's petition if we thought there was even a chance this incentive would prompt them to deploy the last generation technology (i.e. DSL) here," he states. "But given Verizon's track record, and the total lack of responsiveness our substantial efforts have been met with thus far, it would be foolish to consider Verizon's latest claim credible."

Complete testimony of the recent hearings on this matter can be found here, during which most towns and cities give a similar reaction - particularly notable are the comments (pdf) by the city of Boston. Some good news from Goldman, Verizon Wireless will be offering EV-DO via a local cell tower starting in November.

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bamabrad

join:2006-01-27
Port Orange, FL

GIVE them the state franchise...

just spell out exactly what you expect in return-complete build out!
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Re: GIVE them the state franchise...

said by bamabrad:

just spell out exactly what you expect in return-complete build out!
that's the issue Verizon has - they DON'T WANT TO commit to serving all areas.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Re: GIVE them the state franchise...

quote:
Note to Verizon lobbyists and PR execs: selling localities you already refuse to serve with DSL on the idea of eliminating franchise build-out requirements for your next-gen services is an uphill climb, no matter how many times you use the word "competition."
No kidding!! And "competition" is the reason these folks don't have DSL in the first place. Verizon, expecially, views DSL mainly as a customer-retention tool (FIOS, BTW, is viewed by them primarily as a TV service). With no competition from cable in these towns, there's no need to deploy DSL, in the minds of Verizon officials.

I'm in the same boat. The neighborhood's served by a new RT, but without the DSL line cards, because the Comcast footprint stops short of reaching us as well.
itguy05

join:2005-06-17
quote:
just spell out exactly what you expect in return-complete build out!
Ask the state of PA how what worked out for them. It didn't - Verizon (actually Bell Atlantic) promised PA the world and delivered none of it.

God
THE Dslr Troll
Premium
join:2002-07-01
Colorado Springs, CO
said by bamabrad:

just spell out exactly what you expect in return-complete build out!
verizon just doesnt want to spend the money it would take to wire this town
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megarock

join:2001-06-28
Catawissa, MO
Reviews:
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Don't feel bad. SBC/ATT was so bad they told me I couldn't get DSL and I was 100 feet away from the CO (I'm still there) then all of a sudden I became eligible for 6Mbps Elite service overnight. All happened because people don't know what button to press.
krebster
Premium
join:2005-03-25
Allentown, PA

Thanks Verizon

"...Verizon Wireless will be offering EV-DO via a local cell tower starting in November."

For ~$80/mo and for very limited use else they will disconnect you.

pb5k
Can't Triforce
Premium
join:2005-11-16
Glendale, AZ

Re: Thanks Verizon

Aw c'mon. 640k 10 gigabytes ought to be enough for anybody.


DaveDude
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
Reviews:
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Verizon its our way, Lets see about a new fee

So all the people who were so against there cable companies, and would do anything including the elinamation of franchise agreements. Basicly hurt themselves. There is no way verizon will ever serve areas like cable does today.
--
the darkest moment is often just before dawn (unless we hold onto the darkness). Anxiety spoils everything and solves nothing.

CPM
Broadband, DSL, cable

join:2001-08-24
Brooklyn, NY

USA IS F'ed up

Man USA is so F'ed up, these days.

elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

Re: USA IS F'ed up

yup untill broadband is treated as a utilty this wont stop

Spazmoto
Kill all Bloodsuckers

join:2003-08-22
Part of the problem is that the USA is a huge land mass. Hard to wire up every inch of it ya know...
--
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." -Carl Sagan

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: USA IS F'ed up

Yes, it is quite easy to simply forget about lower profit regions entirely.

CPM
Broadband, DSL, cable

join:2001-08-24
Brooklyn, NY
That is the problem. USA people only do things for money. Not for the quality of life, for the greater good.

Fatal Vector

join:2005-11-26

Re: USA IS F'ed up

"That is the problem. USA people only do things for money. Not for the quality of life, for the greater good."

That's the greedy, spineless, self centered, self absorbed, money grubbing sheeple of the United States for you. Such a "great" society we have, eh?
moresuo

join:2001-08-26
Stewartsville, NJ
Reviews:
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Any given State whose foot print is covered by Verizon is not bigger than Japan and certainly isn't bigger than western Europe, both of which enjoy full 30Mbps coverage throughout their countries, border to border.

The utility companies have been getting fat on corporate welfare, support taxes [do you know you pay a tax on your cellphone and hard line usage SPECICIALLY to give the telecommunication utilities underwriting capital to expand their networks into the hinterlands?], and have failed to spend necessary deployment capital to keep us current with the rest of the world.

The country that invented ARPAnet is behind little South Korea in high speed internet technology. SOUTH KOREA!!!

I'm a former FidoNetter [amateur network that began in the '80's and was a breeding/testing ground for a lot of the technology used today. We used the Bells own technology to huge amounts of information across standard POTS lines and beat the Bells tariffing system LEGALLY.

I say we do it like we did it than.

NEIGHBORHOODS SHOULD BAN TOGETHER, BRING IN T1 LINES AT ABOUT $400/MONTH AND DIVIDE THE COST AMOUNT THE PARTICIPATING USERS. GO INTO DIRECT COMPETITION WITH VERIZON USING THEIR FIBER TO DO IT.

Initial outlay would be under $3000 + the $400/month. That is the same as a $125 installation charge and $20/month for 25 users [and if their are more users the costs go down] for a N class wireless network at T1 speeds [1.5Mbps downstream AND up].

Enough people doing that would crisp their cookies but good.

KrazyDawg

join:2001-02-07
San Francisco, CA
We live in a capitalistic society. It's all about making money at all costs. The BS taxes people are paying that supposedly serve these rural areas aren't being put into good use. The US is billions of dollars in debt with no social security for the next generation and not much of it was used to improve the quality of life. There's money out there. Millions of dollars are being used to contruct new memorials in the DC area. The 9/11 memorial is projected to cost a total of over 30 million with 11 million in donations to date.

Spazmoto
Kill all Bloodsuckers

join:2003-08-22
Bone-headed replies. Nobody does anything out of the goodness of their heart.

CPM
Broadband, DSL, cable

join:2001-08-24
Brooklyn, NY
The quality of life, sucks in the USA.

Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4

Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

Verizon should save itself some trouble and instead of dealing with the state's telecom/cable regulatory agency and asking for rule changes, they should just get the legislature to pass a statewide franchise law like many other states have done. It is much easier to lobby($$$) legislators than it is to get a state regulatory agency to change their rules.
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pb5k
Can't Triforce
Premium
join:2005-11-16
Glendale, AZ

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

Should they stick the cash in congressmen's freezers or just buy them Rolls Royces instead? I think the cars would be a bit high profile myself.
--
"When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'" --
Theodore Roosevelt

Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
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USA
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2 edits

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

said by pb5k:

Should they stick the cash in congressmen's freezers or just buy them Rolls Royces instead? I think the cars would be a bit high profile myself.
I like the Rolls Royce method myself. But they can buy legislators with LEGAL reelection money. None of the pols wants to go back to making a real living, so any money to get them reelected is very much appreciated when laws are up for a vote.
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vinnie97
Premium
join:2003-12-05
US
kudos:1

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

tough titty for the country bumpkins basically, eh?

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

He advocates corruption. Don't mind him.

Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

said by tsu9:

He advocates corruption. Don't mind him.
Nice troll attempt. I don't ADVOCATE it, but I do live in the real world and recognize that that is how things have worked since the founding of the Republic. You play the game or get to sit on the sidelines with the losers.
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tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL

Re: Verizon should go to legislature & forget cable reg agency

That would be supporting (and advocating) corruption, Tk.

"Play[ing] the game" as you put it is rather directly opposed to the principles that are supposed to be upheld by said "play[ers]." That it's happened throughout the ages does not mean it is correct, otherwise, we'd never see elected officials tossed in jail over this sort of back-room shenanigan.
--
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Karl Bode
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4 edits
quote:
Nice troll attempt. I don't ADVOCATE it, but I do live in the real world and recognize that that is how things have worked since the founding of the Republic. You play the game or get to sit on the sidelines with the losers.
You advocate corruption (if it can be gotten away with), the elimination of government authority over corporations, and anything else that benefits your retirement Comcast stock holdings.

And please stop lecturing the site users about trolling, you're one of the site's largest ones.

Fatal Vector

join:2005-11-26


Who cares about Rolls Royces? Give me the cash.

tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL
Yes, bribes are more effective when dealing with lawmakers.

Quite sad when it comes down to how much a company has to pay off the legislature in order to do something the community doesn't want.
--
"You do not secure the liberty of our country and value of our democracy by undermining them, that's the road to hell." - Lord Phillips of Sudbury.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

1 edit
tkjunkmail-

It seems safe to say you oppose regulation of any kind, anywhere, anytime, for any industry.

Or is it just regulation that the telco industry doesn't like?

truedalife

join:2003-01-10
Brooklyn, MD

Broadband discrimination is wrong!!!

Your missing the whole point. Verizon only wants to serve area's that they feel are profitable and have a better change of creating a cable turn over. That means some folks will get the service while others don't. This is broadband discrimination and it wrong. Verizon is this piranha in a small pool of water, slowly drying in the desert Sun. It will do anything to stay alive right now. Even if it means throwing up this middle finger to the lower working class.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

Re: Broadband discrimination is wrong!!!

said by truedalife:

Your missing the whole point. Verizon only wants to serve area's that they feel are profitable
Actually, they could serve alot more areas at a profit than they are now. Check out some of the data on www.dslprime.com. They simply choose not to. They either feel the money will have a higher return being spent on FIOS deplyments (for people that already have DSL), or just not spent at all, and help the balance sheet.

Now if they were worried that they were going to lose these customers to a cable co., maybe permanently, they'd take a different tack.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Why Dump Only on Verizon?

Aren't whatever cable companies which don't serve these areas just as guilty?
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DaveDude
No Fear

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New Jersey
kudos:1
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Re: Why Dump Only on Verizon?

said by pnh102:

Aren't whatever cable companies which don't serve these areas just as guilty?
Nope because they are bound to service agreements, those areas not served should be written into the next franchise. Verizon doesnt offer that type of resolution.
--
the darkest moment is often just before dawn (unless we hold onto the darkness). Anxiety spoils everything and solves nothing.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Why Dump Only on Verizon?

said by DaveDude:

Nope because they are bound to service agreements, those areas not served should be written into the next franchise. Verizon doesnt offer that type of resolution.
Perhaps these towns should offer some sort of tax incentives for the private sector to implement some sort of broadband network. If they aren't happy with Verizon, then someone else might be able to fill the void instead.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.

DaveDude
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
Reviews:
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Re: Why Dump Only on Verizon?

said by pnh102:

said by DaveDude:

Nope because they are bound to service agreements, those areas not served should be written into the next franchise. Verizon doesnt offer that type of resolution.
Perhaps these towns should offer some sort of tax incentives for the private sector to implement some sort of broadband network. If they aren't happy with Verizon, then someone else might be able to fill the void instead.
I think if neither cable or telco wants to serve an area, MUNI fiber should be allowed, as long as it non profit. Later the system could be rented/lease to a private corporation.
--
the darkest moment is often just before dawn (unless we hold onto the darkness). Anxiety spoils everything and solves nothing.
kderby

join:2000-02-09
Bellingham, MA

Free market system?

Isn't Verizon's denial of wiring any area that they deem as 'non-profitable' part of the free market system?

They're not required by anyone to install anything anywhere. This is akin to someone forcing Shell to set up a gas station in a rural area, that only serves a few cars.

As someone stated above, until broadband is treated as a utility (and is essentially *required* to be delivered to all citizens [for the most part, don't split hairs here]),then these companies can install or not install as they see fit.

DaveDude
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Vonage
·ViaTalk

Re: Free market system?

Well Verizon has asked for special rules that help them, and even asked to up fees for services so they could "fund" fios deployment. If your refering to free market, cable doesnt ask for any special privileges. Pennsylvinia is a good example, where they where given a boatload of money and did nothing. Cable on the other just delivered.
--
the darkest moment is often just before dawn (unless we hold onto the darkness). Anxiety spoils everything and solves nothing.
lithicus0

join:2006-06-30
Chesapeake, VA
That is true, however President Bush made a telecommunications act that requires all areas to have broadband by (guessing, 2009). That same act delegates that television be converted to iptv in a couple of years. Not only is this act in effect, it also rewrites and overrides some rules of capitalism.

P.S. Keep in mind that I am not trying to start a flame war on bush, I am completely sick of the lack of support for government and I am a republican.

ghopper

join:2004-06-28
Everett, WA
Actually, the system is not at all a "free market system."

A true free market system requires not only no (govt.) regulation of price, but also depends on a perfect competition model to avoid buyers getting screwed when sellers create artificial scarcity.

Here Verizon has no (real) competition. Verizon also can and has created scarcity. Last but not least, Verizon is using it's position as a utility to bring in the infrastructure and prevent other competition whenever and where ever it can.

As a side note to this, where ever they are installing FIOS, they are tearing out the copper to prevent having to share the copper ie. there's no copper so we don't have to share, and there's no law saying we have to share the fiber. This is currently happening here in the Puget Sound area of Washington State.

Back to the discussion: so put another way, in a free market system, a rural customer might have to pay more, but would be able to purchase the service. There are other economic models, that work similarly, but also have the extra profit made from serving the dense areas being used to subsidize the extra current cost of setting up in less dense areas. the seller then makes it back as he sees a profit from the late comers.

This is like a public improvement district where the first comers pay to set the lights/sewer/water/whatever up and subsequent builders have to pay the buy-in or hookup charge that reimburses the first people to build in an area and fronted the costs.

If Verizon or whomever is going to get a franchise (the exclusive right to service a given area) they gotta cover he whole area. If the agreement leaves loopholes you can drive a truck through, the residents need to blame the UTC and the government that was involved in granting the franchise.

mckenna797
Premium
join:2004-08-25
Astoria, NY
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The Point Is that Verizon is looking for an Unfair advantage in its Battle with the cable Companys , Almost all cable company Franchise's required the cable company to wire the whole city or town,Including economical depressed areas and provide free service to schools Libarys what verizon wants is to pick and choose who and where they will wire Fios, anyboy see this as redlining communities

ChickenLittle

@comcast.net

Trying to Get Verizon DSL

....Is like pulling teeth from a chicken!
amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

what I don't get.

Ok, so I understand the debate on "profitable" areas... not going to comment on that part.

I understand distance limitations for DSL.

What I don't understand, is why telephone lines are run ANYWHERE... to MOST households anywhere. It took lots of time, and lots of work, and lots of money to pay for all of it.

So if they spent all that time wiring up everyone, why not offer DSL to ANY area with more than say, 5 houses within a mile, who want it? Why aren't these companies REQUIRED to wire DSL nodes to places that ASK kindly to PAY these people more?

I understand leaving a spot here or there because of maybe workload, logistics, or that maybe nobody ever asked. There are several places around here that can't get it, but there are also those who ask for it... there's a wonderful little telco east of here that sucked it up and gave the people what they wanted... as a result, there's DSL in the boonies for people who might NEVER have had any other form of high speed internet.

"DSL is available to most of our customers where we provide telephone service."

-and in fact, MILES out of town!

»www.wamtelco.com/?IN-DSL

I lived out at a friends house 5 or 6 miles out of town, 1.5Mbps DSL with low latency and a stable connection.

Why can't these Furry-eye-zoned-out (verizon) losers suck it up and help out their neighbors???

That's what I don't get. The people who built the phone system as we know it were not weaklings. They had to suck it up and do what had to be done... Again, I realize distance limitations here with a digitized signal, but if people are clammoring for it, why not hook 'em up? Esp. if the MAJOR work has already been done! All it really takes is what, a few quality repeaters, some cards? Time? Money?

Yes it does. So did setting up those lines. Betcha it cost MUCH more to do that than it would to finally get some DSL to people.

...Then again, what I really think is that ALL the telco's should be working on turbo, ultra, super, fantabulous FIBER...
soothsayer15

join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX

Re: what I don't get.

For the Telco's it's all about survival. They are losing landlines faster than they are signing up DSL customers. It's pretty obvious that DSL will not save them. That's why video and speed are so important. AT&T will be destroyed by that U-Verse and Homezone BS.

One of the previous posters was right. This is a capitalist society. Though no cable company or Telco will admit it, they would all prefer areas with high returns on investments. Don't kid yourself, that's what deployment is, an investment. Business isn't charity. Try to open a well known fast food restaurant. many are pretty picky about where you open one of their stores. Is it right? Maybe not. But you don't stay in business for being a good citizen. Voting is done with dollars now. If you don't have the money, you're stuck out.
moresuo

join:2001-08-26
Stewartsville, NJ
Reviews:
·PenTeleData
·Service Electric..

Re: what I don't get.

said by soothsayer15:

AT&T will be destroyed by that U-Verse and Homezone BS.
AT&T isn't a long distance communications carrier business anymore. They want to be IBM. That is their goal now-days. The offer turn-key networking solutions.

FIB3RTECH

@charter.com

Cable has had to deal with local franchises for years

Now Verizon decides to get into Video and complains about something that has been in place for years. Competition is great, but both should be on a level playing field.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Cable has had to deal with local franchises for years

said by FIB3RTECH :

Now Verizon decides to get into Video and complains about something that has been in place for years. Competition is great, but both should be on a level playing field.
Does YouTube need to suck local hustlers toes to show videos? NO. A national TV franchise is coming, Bush owes the Tel Cos big time for the NSA wiretapping thing.
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA
The cable companies didn't have to go through what the telephone companies did to get into the phone business so where's this level playing field.
moresuo

join:2001-08-26
Stewartsville, NJ
Reviews:
·PenTeleData
·Service Electric..

Do it the way we use to in Fidonet

Use the phone companies own fiber to compete directly with their services.

Neighborhoods get together, lease a T1 line at about $400/month, lay out about $3000 in initial costs [the same as about a $125 installation charge and $20/month usage fee for 25 users... more users, those costs go down] the paying members of the neighborhood have a wireless "N" class network service with full T1 speeds [1.5 Mbps down stream and UP].

That should get the Bells [including Verizon's] attention.

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