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Verizon Now Kicking P2P Users Off Their Network?
Verizon says yes to CNET, then tells us no...
by Karl Bode Wednesday 20-Jan-2010 tags: legal · Fileswapping · business · Verizon FiOS · Verizon Online DSL
Updated with Verizon comments at bottom. Like most every ISP, Verizon forwarded copyright notices to customers who are tagged by the entertainment industry's intelligence-gathering organizations as having uploaded copyrighted files. However, they haven't disclosed the customer who was actually using the IP address at the time the infringement occurred, and Verizon in fact has a long history of being one of only a few ISPs that has fought the RIAA vehemently in in the courts (and won).

But something started changing last year, when Verizon said they were cooperating with both the RIAA and MPAA on a new letter writing campaign that would target P2P users. At the time it wasn't clear what was going to be different, given that Verizon had been forwarding DMCA warnings for years -- and customers had been ignoring them with no repercussions for just as long. CNET now claims that Verizon has started kicking users off of the network who repeatedly engage in copyright infringement (at least according to the entertainment industry):

Months after Verizon Communications began issuing warnings to accused file sharers, the company has acknowledged that multiple offenses could result in a service interruption. "We've cut some people off," Verizon Online spokeswoman Bobbi Henson told CNET. "We do reserve the right to discontinue service. But we don't throttle bandwidth like Comcast was doing."

But is Henson talking about simply kicking excessive users off the network (quite common) or kicking DMCA violators off the network? We're checking to see if she misspoke. Such "graduated response" practices aren't new, but they are rare. To our knowledge, among the major ISPs only Cox Communications will actually boot you from the network for repeat DMCA warnings, but the company told us they give the user every opportunity to scale back. Verizon similarly tells CNET that the number of users they actually kick off the network is "small," but that they're seeing a lot of users stop P2P use after getting a single warning.

We do reserve the right to discontinue service. But we don't throttle bandwidth like Comcast was doing.
-Verizon
The problem, as we've often discussed, is that there's no real course of action for customers who are falsely targeted by the entertainment industry's accusation mechanism, which has neither a good record for accuracy, nor any independent oversight of the accusation process. If Verizon's terminating the broadband service of paying customers with little evidence outside of a wink and an IP address, it will raise all kinds of legal questions moving forward.

There is irony here, given Verizon used to be such a stalwart protector of P2P user privacy. While analysts, ISPs and executives deny or ignore it -- ISPs built their broadband empires on the shoulders of piracy and the allure of free content (remember a little thing called Napster?). Now that there's very few dial-up users to convert, and carriers are busy trying to become content giants, piracy has lost its usefulness and ISPs may be more interested in protecting copyrights.

Or has it? Verizon closing the door on P2P users would mean that other ISPs can quietly gain a marketing edge and lure P2P users by not participating in the MPAA and RIAA's graduated response push. Independent ISPs may be given an opportunity to lure users in by assuring them the ISP is not interested in being a content nanny. You also have to wonder if the decision would reduce adoption of the carrier's faster and pricier tiers, which, if we're honest, are most useful to those engaging in large P2P transfers.

Of course Verizon's lawyers likely weighed all the risks. If they're moving toward graduated response, they must figure that with the company building a TV and content empire, that all the potential pitfalls were worth cozying up to the entertainment industry and protecting copyrights. Of course the move won't stop piracy. Users can still utilize proxy services to mask their IP address, or simply flock to other alternatives that aren't tracked by the entertainment industry, like UseNet or direct HTTP download links.

Meanwhile, we're interested in hearing from any Verizon user that actually has pushed this process to the point where Verizon wants to disconnect them.

Update: In conversations Broadband Reports has subsequently had with Verizon's Bobbi Henson, she seems to be debating the position that she appeared to take in the CNET piece:

I'm not aware that we've ever terminated anyone's account for excessive consumption, although we reserve the right to do so. Verizon has no bandwidth caps. That part of the CNET story is wrong. I did not say "we've cut people off." I said we reserve the right to do so.

We're still pushing to see whether the carrier actually has cut anyone off for DMCA violations, or if they're simply inferring that they will to reduce network strain and get the RIAA/MPAA off of their back.

Update 2: Ok, we're still working for you to get at the truth. We asked Verizon whether anybody had actually been terminated from Verizon's network and got this response. It takes a paragraph, but Verizon informs us that the answer to that question is NO.:

We have had a copyright notice and education program in place for some time now and communicated it to our customers and the public on our Web site back in April 2009. This is not an automatic “three strikes” graduated response program. This program has been effective in reducing instances of repeat notices and has not resulted in the termination of any Verizon customer’s service. The intent of the program is to educate customers and give them every opportunity to take action to address notices from content owners that their Internet connection may have been used to download or share content in violation of copyright laws. Our goal is to protect our customers’ privacy and due process rights while recognizing the importance of copyright protection and acquiring content legally. We believe our program strikes a reasonable approach and is working very well.


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Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

Not surprised

They just followed Comcast but have a more harsh punishment.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:33

Re: Not surprised

Comcast isn't booting people off the network for getting DMCA warnings. Yet.

jadebangle
Premium
join:2007-05-22
00000

Re: Not surprised

said by Karl Bode:

Comcast isn't booting people off the network for getting DMCA warnings. Yet.
that is good news i am very happy to hear that XD

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
said by Chaldo:

They just followed Comcast but have a more harsh punishment.
What in God's name are you talking about? Any examples..or are you just expressing your "feelings"?
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Underplay

join:2003-10-19
Tacoma, WA

Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

They can't stop freedom
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

My thoughts exactly, when the MAFIAA (+ ISPs sometimes) sets out to build a better cat/mouse trap, a better mouse will be built.

BF69
Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should? Please go to work and tell your boss you will now work for free so their customers can get free shit. Of course I am assuming you actually have a job.
zipjay

join:2003-03-11
South Williamson, KY

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

when you get right down to it... this country was made possibly by forcing black people to build it for us for free
jcp

join:2002-04-12
Richmond, VA
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

the civil war was over in 1865, black people have been free since to do as they please. no one forced them to lay fiber in the ground let alone build this country from what it was almost 150 years ago. so that really is kinda a moot point in this conversation

XBL2009
------

join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by jcp:

the civil war was over in 1865, black people have been free since to do as they please. no one forced them to lay fiber in the ground let alone build this country from what it was almost 150 years ago. so that really is kinda a moot point in this conversation
Slavery really didn't end until 1964 with the civil rights bill.
jcp

join:2002-04-12
Richmond, VA
kudos:1

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by XBL2009:

said by jcp:

the civil war was over in 1865, black people have been free since to do as they please. no one forced them to lay fiber in the ground let alone build this country from what it was almost 150 years ago. so that really is kinda a moot point in this conversation
Slavery really didn't end until 1964 with the civil rights bill.
oh i wasn't aware we forced african americans to work for us for free. i believe if i remember my middle school history correctly slavery was abolished in 1865, granted they may have not had the same rights.. but i'm pretty sure they were not forced to work. i'm also fairly sure if they weren't satisfied with what they were doing or where they were they were free to relocate somewhere else...

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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said by zipjay:

when you get right down to it... this country was made possibly by forcing black people to build it for us for free
Really. Nice history /fail.
--
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cableties
Premium
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Don't forget their own sold them into slavery...
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Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
said by zipjay:

when you get right down to it... this country was made possibly by forcing black people to build it for us for free
LOL, that has got to be one of the stupidest things ever said on this forum.

Gbcue
P.E.
Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:8
said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should? Please go to work and tell your boss you will now work for free so their customers can get free shit. Of course I am assuming you actually have a job.
P2P != piracy.
--
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fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

That is true but has anyone gotten a DMCA warning for legal P2P? I'm sure a few people have gotten them mistakenly, but by far the majority of warning letters have been for illegally distributing copyrighted material.

BF69
Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
said by Gbcue:

said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should? Please go to work and tell your boss you will now work for free so their customers can get free shit. Of course I am assuming you actually have a job.
P2P != piracy.
Did I say that? No. But downloading a torrent of movie is. Yes yes no one ever pirates movies, music and TV shows. All people do on p2p is download ISOs of Linux.

Gbcue
P.E.
Premium
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kudos:8

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by BF69:

Did I say that? No. But downloading a torrent of movie is. Yes yes no one ever pirates movies, music and TV shows. All people do on p2p is download ISOs of Linux.
Downloading a .torrent file is not illegal.
--
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Metatron2008
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Reviews:
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Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by Gbcue:

said by BF69:

Did I say that? No. But downloading a torrent of movie is. Yes yes no one ever pirates movies, music and TV shows. All people do on p2p is download ISOs of Linux.
Downloading a .torrent file is not illegal.
If it's not supposed to be copied around, it is.

fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
said by Gbcue:

said by BF69:

Did I say that? No. But downloading a torrent of movie is. Yes yes no one ever pirates movies, music and TV shows. All people do on p2p is download ISOs of Linux.
Downloading a .torrent file is not illegal.
Reading a book on how to rob a bank isn't illegal either.

Z80A
Premium
join:2009-11-23

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by fifty nine:

said by Gbcue:

said by BF69:

Did I say that? No. But downloading a torrent of movie is. Yes yes no one ever pirates movies, music and TV shows. All people do on p2p is download ISOs of Linux.
Downloading a .torrent file is not illegal.
Reading a book on how to rob a bank isn't illegal either.
Yet the RIAA sues to try and close the library.

fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

That's a different issue. I am actually opposed to them shutting down torrent sites.

thender
Screen tycoon
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Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1
said by Z80A:

Yet the RIAA sues to try and close the library.
There are libraries with millions of fictional and nonfictional materials, many of which are educational.

Then there are libraries whose purpose, 99.9% of the time, is to index where to find copyrighted material to obtain freely.

There's a difference. It's a loophole in the law that is getting closer to closed every year.
--
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should?
Nope. It's paying for stuff and then actually having a say in how you use it. It's like trying to bring balance back between corporate and consumer interests, instead of having it tilted all the way over to their end.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Metatron2008
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Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by KrK:

said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should?
Nope. It's paying for stuff and then actually having a say in how you use it. It's like trying to bring balance back between corporate and consumer interests, instead of having it tilted all the way over to their end.
I'd wager that a majority of the people who are talking about freedom, P2P and peerguardian, didn't buy anything they are talking about.
Underplay

join:2003-10-19
Tacoma, WA
said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should? Please go to work and tell your boss you will now work for free so their customers can get free shit. Of course I am assuming you actually have a job.
Actually yea I do have a job, that is legal as well, and I'm self employed, no boss here. Oh yea, I'm also a programmer. What are you trying to proof? Im downloading a 4.3 GB file through usenet's 256bit encryption and there aint shit nobody can do about it because it's my right. What you people don't get is that you cant stop evolution, you can only slow it down, obviously your brainwashed into thinking sharing virtual information that has no phsyical value is illegal, you probably also support the DEA and the war on drugs aswell dont you.

I can't wait for all the old people and there old views to just die out.

Metatron2008
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Stockbridge, GA
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4 edits

Re: People still watch TV?

said by Underplay:

said by BF69:

said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
So freedom is not paying for stuff you should? Please go to work and tell your boss you will now work for free so their customers can get free shit. Of course I am assuming you actually have a job.
Actually yea I do have a job, that is legal as well, and I'm self employed, no boss here. Oh yea, I'm also a programmer. What are you trying to proof? Im downloading a 4.3 GB file through usenet's 256bit encryption and there aint shit nobody can do about it because it's my right. What you people don't get is that you cant stop evolution, you can only slow it down, obviously your brainwashed into thinking sharing virtual information that has no phsyical value is illegal, you probably also support the DEA and the war on drugs aswell dont you.

I can't wait for all the old people and there old views to just die out.
Bullshit. And if by some chance all of that is correct, then I assume you don't mind if other people steal your work and never pay for it, putting you on the street?

You are either lying or a fool who doesn't understand how life works.

Anybody who is self employed and has even AN IDEA of how bills work wouldn't be messing around with putting bread on the table. Esp. not in this economy.

Btw, it's 'prove', not proof. Not to mention the countless other spelling errors. What software do you make by chance? Hacks modifications for games, Stuff on /b/ in your parents basement? Because a person with your ability to type wouldn't be able to sell anything reasonable.
dgoner
Premium
join:2002-03-08
Knox, IN

Re: People still watch TV?

said by Metatron2008:

Bullshit. And if by some chance all of that is correct, then I assume you don't mind if other people steal your work and never pay for it, putting you on the street?

You are either lying or a fool who doesn't understand how life works.

Anybody who is self employed and has even AN IDEA of how bills work wouldn't be messing around with putting bread on the table. Esp. not in this economy.

Btw, it's 'prove', not proof. Not to mention the countless other spelling errors. What software do you make by chance? Hacks modifications for games, Stuff on /b/ in your parents basement? Because a person with your ability to type wouldn't be able to sell anything reasonable.
So Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, and Tom Cruise have been thrown out on the street? Why didn't someone tell me such horrible atrocity was going on. KILL THE INTERNET NOW!

Let's face it this is about huge corporations trying to protect an ever GROWING empire. This has nothing to do with people being thrown out onto the street because they can't get paid. Sensationalism to the extreme on the part of the MPAA, RIAA, and all who sympathise with them.

Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
Stockbridge, GA
Reviews:
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Re: People still watch TV?

said by dgoner:

said by Metatron2008:

Bullshit. And if by some chance all of that is correct, then I assume you don't mind if other people steal your work and never pay for it, putting you on the street?

You are either lying or a fool who doesn't understand how life works.

Anybody who is self employed and has even AN IDEA of how bills work wouldn't be messing around with putting bread on the table. Esp. not in this economy.

Btw, it's 'prove', not proof. Not to mention the countless other spelling errors. What software do you make by chance? Hacks modifications for games, Stuff on /b/ in your parents basement? Because a person with your ability to type wouldn't be able to sell anything reasonable.
So Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, and Tom Cruise have been thrown out on the street? Why didn't someone tell me such horrible atrocity was going on. KILL THE INTERNET NOW!

Let's face it this is about huge corporations trying to protect an ever GROWING empire. This has nothing to do with people being thrown out onto the street because they can't get paid. Sensationalism to the extreme on the part of the MPAA, RIAA, and all who sympathise with them.
For every major star, their are hundreds, thousands even, of people who take regular jobs to write, create and maintain their work. The only one making sensations about this is a person who looks at the top 1% and ignores the rest of the people; you.
dgoner
Premium
join:2002-03-08
Knox, IN

Re: People still watch TV?

Show some statistics of how this industry is in the state of contraction. Show some statistics as to how this industry is not still growing despite material being pirated. Put your money where your mouth is before you start spewing the 'party line' out of your mouth. This link shows data up to 2008. The industry as a whole is growing »www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w···T79tuaLg So tell me again are people attached to this industry really being thrown onto the street? Bullshit show me your proof!

Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
Stockbridge, GA

Re: People still watch TV?

If you haven't been paying attention to the economy, then there is no point talking to you. Most of that money goes to CEOs.
dgoner
Premium
join:2002-03-08
Knox, IN

Re: People still watch TV?

LOL yep that is what I thought (no data). Typical banter of a MPAA / RIAA shill. Let me let you in on a little secret... The CEO's always make the money regardless of the economy. The other little secret is that the entertainment industry is almost recession proof. As long as American's are still breathing they will always be looking for ways to be entertained. You'll have to try a lot harder to convince people that don't have their head up their tootsie that people are being pushed to the street, unable to make a buck in the entertainment industry.

Metatron2008
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1 edit

Re: People still watch TV?

The CEOs never used to be like this. The CEOs of today are just like you. They take what they want and have no care for anyone else.

You are looking the wrong way. I'm not a thief, or a shill, for any of your selfish sides. I have morales.

You may not realize this, but not everything is as polarized as you believe. I hate both you and the riaa.
fldiver
Premium
join:1999-12-27
Jacksonville, FL
Let's also not forget boys and girls that corporations have broke the public trust by extending these copyrights to ridiculous lengths of time to "protect their revenue stream". Please educate yourselves before you start spouting inaccurate information. P2P can be used for many legal purposes, and if you think someone is automatically guilty before they are charged in front of a jury of their peers you didn't read the constitution very carefully.
bsoft

join:2004-03-28
Boulder, CO
Freedom is the right to defend yourself, including the right to a trial (in most instances) if you are accused of breaking the law.

Yes, Verizon is a private company, and yes, they can cut you off for practically any reason (the TOS you agreed to says so). Verizon is acting fully within the law.

However, there's something profoundly un-free about the fact that powerful media organizations with no oversight (the RIAA and MPAA, among others) now apparently have the ability to get your Internet service cut off.

It's one thing to sue people who are pirating movies or music. It may not be the best PR or business move, and I don't agree with the exorbitant damages, but it least it gives the accused a chance to defend themselves.

The "new" process, where your ISP cuts you off, doesn't give you the chance to invoke discovery to research the process used to evidence against you, it doesn't give you the chance to call expert witnesses that might be able to exonerate you, and it doesn't give you the chance to have your case heard by a jury of your peers.

Verizon basically is saying that they can be judge, jury, and executioner. Legally, they are well within their rights.

Does it infringe on your freedom? Absolutely. It infringes on your right to due process.
butchevans
Premium
join:2007-01-15
Malden, MO

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by bsoft See Profile
Verizon basically is saying that they can be judge, jury, and executioner. Legally, they are well within their rights.

Does it infringe on your freedom? Absolutely. It infringes on your right to due process.
[/BQUOTE :


What freedom is infringed upon? It is THEIR network. You are paying them for access. If you paid ME for access to MY network, I am obligated to permit you access as long as:
1. You continued to pay
AND
2. I accepted the money.

As soon as I decide to no longer accept your money, I am no longer obligated to permit you access. After all, it is MY RIGHT as the owner of the network to determine who I will sell to. I may decide I don't like people who use a name like "bsoft", and use that as a basis. It is NOT discrimination, it is a choice on my part whether to serve you or not.
--
Butch Evans
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Linklist
Premium
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Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by butchevans:

As soon as I decide to no longer accept your money, I am no longer obligated to permit you access. After all, it is MY RIGHT as the owner of the network to determine who I will sell to. I may decide I don't like people who use a name like "bsoft", and use that as a basis. It is NOT discrimination, it is a choice on my part whether to serve you or not.
Well, the gov't doesn't subscribe to your philosophy anymore. Remember stores with signs that said " We have the right to refuse service to anyone". Well now that is against the law based on race, religion, sexual orientation, physical handicap, etc.
--
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butchevans
Premium
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Malden, MO

Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by Linklist:

Well, the gov't doesn't subscribe to your philosophy anymore. Remember stores with signs that said " We have the right to refuse service to anyone". Well now that is against the law based on race, religion, sexual orientation, physical handicap, etc.
I used the example based on dislike of a name. I don't think race or religion came into it. Either way, as a network operator, I HAVE chosen to refuse service in the past. I have done so as a consultant as well. Until I accept money, I am not obligated to provide service. It's the main reason I chose NOT to participate in the money grab that is called an "economic stimulus". It will be the government's network too soon for my taste anyway.
--
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Network Engineering and Troubleshooting
»www.butchevans.com/ | »blog.butchevans.com/
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Hangmn
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Hello McFly....The American public just got RAPED by wall street..why is the PUBLIC only has to play by the RULES???
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Karl Bode
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I will say that people who infer that protecting their personal P2P use is the Internet equivalent of protecting Bolivia from fascism aren't really doing copyright reform any favors.

I'll also say though that people who boil down the entire P2P crowd's arguments as "we like free stuff" haven't got much of a clue of what the debate is really about either.

Metatron2008
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Re: Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

said by Karl Bode:

I will say that people who infer that protecting their personal P2P use is the Internet equivalent of protecting Bolivia from fascism aren't really doing copyright reform any favors.

I'll also say though that people who boil down the entire P2P crowd's arguments as "we like free stuff" haven't got much of a clue of what the debate is really about either.
I was only replying to the person above talking about freedoms. P2P is about alot more, but people who reply about freedoms in a topic of copyright infringement are talking about one specific part of P2P.

KoolMoe
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infer or imply? (in the lead story, bolded, too)
KM
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cork1958
Cork
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join:2000-02-26
said by Karl Bode:

I will say that people who infer that protecting their personal P2P use is the Internet equivalent of protecting Bolivia from fascism aren't really doing copyright reform any favors.

I'll also say though that people who boil down the entire P2P crowd's arguments as "we like free stuff" haven't got much of a clue of what the debate is really about either.
Amen!!
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»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
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said by Underplay:

They can't stop freedom
They are determined to try.

Linklist
Premium
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Longport, NJ
kudos:5
said by Underplay:

Usenet + Encryption / Private BitTorrent

They can't stop freedom
Is it freedom or anarchy when laws are broken and applauded?
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page


See 10 replies to this post
caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 edit

Kind of bold statement

"they built their broadband empires on the shoulders of piracy and the promise of free content."

For some I guess but not the majority of users.

And regarding why Verizon is doing this now, it is called Fios TV services. They have a dog in the fight for video dollars now and free video cuts into that.
--
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2 edits

Re: Kind of bold statement

Not bold. True. Napster was HUGE in driving customers from dial-up to broadband. Free music was an incredibly dominant driver in broadband adoption for years...even in many cases quietly hinted at in carrier marketing materials...

Now that the conversion of dial-up users has stagnated, and Verizon's interested in building a TV and content empire and protecting its own copyrights, piracy is no longer needed as a growth engine.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Kind of bold statement

For me, it was always about gaming. I hardly have time anymore, but back in the day, it was multi-player gaming.

I've barely ever touched any P2P. I always wanted broadband so I could host my own servers and content free of charge--- but of course, it was banned, blocked, violation of TOS, etc etc so it never happened.

Now they are even cracking down on the gaming. Moving it all to their control. /sigh. The real potential of the Internet is being wrecked by greed and corporate interests.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

nlue

@suddenlink.net
bullshit. Nobody, not a single person, decided to switch from 10 dollar dialup for 60-120 dollar broadband so they could check their email faster.

ISPS have known for years exactly what audience they have been catering and marketing towards and you do too. Not all p2p is illegal, not all torrents contain questionable content.

Cut p2p and streaming, and what are you left with? Using all your bandwidth on flash advertisements while checking a few niche websites, email accounts and message boards? This majority is not going to pay the current prices for those limited "services". You don't need a high-rated connection for gaming either. You don't need it for bullshit like twitter.

It makes lots of dollars and cents to the corporate world to provide us the least amount of service for the highest prices, but the average citizen hasn't gotten so stupid that they will allow them selves to be fucked this hard on their last line of entertainment and communication. ISPs want to have their cake and eat it too. That's not how the world works. Stop vilifying your customers in order to please an unrelated industry.

KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD

Re: Kind of bold statement

I'm a "multimedia developer", fully legal, large-file content. I switched to DSL, then FIOS, for faster speeds primarily to get files out to customers faster.

I've done a little P2P but it's not a significant motivator.

Second most would be the 5 computers in the house for my family. Try doing that on dialup!

Is that a leap between P2P and 'streaming' I see? Who's protesting authorized streaming? Hulu and the like are great options to have!

My job and a large user base were primary reasons for my switch...but you're right, checking email faster was way down the list.
KM
--
Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Title...

I'm a bit confused by the post title... "kicking P2P Users off their network" is a bit different than "kicking accused pirates off their network", as the former seems to imply that Verizon is now outright objecting to P2P, while the latter seems to be more what the article is saying?

See 24 replies to this post
Network Guy
Premium
join:2000-08-25
New York

With so many ISPs to choose from

... who cares if Verizon is acting like copyright cop.

See 12 replies to this post

Acuity

join:2002-06-22
Londonderry, NH

RIAA/MPAA to Verizon or AT&T to Apple....

Who is getting the larger paycheck?

treichhart

join:2006-12-12
Reviews:
·AT&T Wireless Br..

4 edits

about other ISPs

well just think about it if customers gets kicked off its not like customers cant find other ISP's to go with. I mean this is great way losing customers over this and I also think its stupid for verizon to do this. Who cares of people are downloading it I mean they are still going to download files by different ways of getting it. There is new software that allow customers download files that ISP's cant filter out or find out any information.
Network Guy
Premium
join:2000-08-25
New York
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

Re: about other ISPs

Verizon is participating in the dog and pony show instead of defiantly telling Hollywood to STFU and DIAF. Less, cheaper legal hassle this way.

Of course consumers are inconvenienced. I'd wager those consumers kicked off their network for piracy won't have trouble re-ordering service soon after service termination.

Come think of it... I think Verizon just created a genius revenue stream. There's a reason for jacked up ETFs.

fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

Re: about other ISPs

said by Network Guy:

Verizon is participating in the dog and pony show instead of defiantly telling Hollywood to STFU and DIAF. Less, cheaper legal hassle this way.
Well considering that an ISP is a business designed to make money and not an activist organization to "free the music" or whatever, so this is expected behavior.

treichhart

join:2006-12-12
You wonder why verizon is selling there services to Frontier lol because verizon screws over there customers with crappy bandwidth and pricing lol.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2
If Verizon cuts off a customer, that customer must go elsewhere, and they're probably the largest network users, for the most part anyway.

Also, by doing this Verizon gets big brownie points from the RIAA/MPAA.

mikesterr

join:2008-04-18
Maple Shade, NJ

Easy to get back online

I would venture a Guess that all you have to do is wait a few days then call in to the sales office and say I'm interested in Fios Data. Be back online in no time. Verizon might be kozying up to the MPAA and RIAA but they don't really want to let go of a Revenue stream forever over it.

David
Now accepting new patients
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:78

Re: Easy to get back online

plus it would pad their new subscriber numbers!
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

wow

so verizon does something worse then throttling you they outright kick you off.
bnceo

join:2007-10-11
Bel Air, MD

Time to POwer up the Peer Guardian

As a member of a bunch of select torrent sites, I use good ol FiOS for my P2P usage. It's lovely and I will miss it when I move in with the GF (who has Comcast) and no access to FiOS.

That being said, I will manage to have a remote PC at my current home (living with mommy) so I can continue to use the FiOS at my leisure. Then transfer the stuff over to my main PC.

And with Peer Guardian acting as my friend, I don't see a problem.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:33

Re: Time to POwer up the Peer Guardian

Aside from the whole fact that Peer Guardian often doesn't work.
bnceo

join:2007-10-11
Bel Air, MD

Re: Time to POwer up the Peer Guardian

It's something. Thin wall, but a wall nonetheless.

Bin9093

@direcpc.com
that will never protect you.

sotxbill

@sbcglobal.net
come on guys.. verizon has to either turn over the name or get sued as an accompannying the crime.

or.. they simply cut you off and pretend it never happened...

so what do you want... jail time or looking for a new isp provider...

What do you want verizon or att or anyone else to do.. take the bullet for you??? Not in this lifetime. You break it you buy it...end of story.. verizon is probably the most honerable isp by chosing to do it this way...

Some folks will still bitch when you save their stupid pathetic worthless lives.

Chemie123

@charter.com

.

not peer guardian...

bitblinder or ItsHidden

manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX
Reviews:
·CMA Access
·AT&T Southwest

1 edit

Well Karl....

Once illegal "P2P" traffic drops below, let's throw 50% out there, AND total bittorrent traffic falls below the 20%-60% of ALL internet traffic (estimations widely vary) down to under 5%, then you might have a point..Until then, the VAST majority of "P2P" traffic consists of copyrighted content/intellectual property. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have articles such as these:

»www.bukisa.com/articles/209904_m···ng-legal

»torrentfreak.com/50-percent-bitt···-080214/

Let me add a requirement for the whole "you might have a point"...Once sites like TPB, Torrentz, ISOHunt, etc. have their Top 100 (or whatever) lists not being DOMINATED by protected content, THEN you will have a point...

Until then, you're just being intellectually dishonest.
--
"The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:33
Host:
Time Warner Intern..
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

Re: Well Karl....

I don't see where I deny that the majority of P2P use isn't dominated by copyrighted content. I have no reason to deny it. It's true.

My point is simply that terminating people's Internet connections based on a simple claim of a copyright holder shadow intelligence operation isn't sound policy...

fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

Re: Well Karl....

said by Karl Bode:

My point is simply that terminating people's Internet connections based on a simple claim of a copyright holder shadow intelligence operation isn't sound policy...
How isn't it sound policy? You agree to the terms of service when you sign up. Violate the terms of service and byeeeeee.

ISPs are in fact being generous by giving 3 strikes. It's not like you're going to jail or anything, just having your internet disconnected.

toddbs98

join:2000-07-08
North Little Rock, AR

Re: Well Karl....

You going to feel the same when you loose your Internet access terminated based on a simple claim you did something wrong? Not proof you did something but a simple claim. That is what is wrong with this 3 strikes crap, no proof is needed just a claim. If you think DMCA warnings aren't sent to innocent people then your a bigger fool than you appear in this thread.
--
Patriots always speak of dying for their country never killing for it. Bertrand Russell
fldiver
Premium
join:1999-12-27
Jacksonville, FL
Uhmm let's see, because my agreement was not with the RIAA or the MPAA. There are so many people that have drunk the KoolAid in this country, I think we are doomed.
bsoft

join:2004-03-28
Boulder, CO
said by manfmmd:

Once sites like TPB, Torrentz, ISOHunt, etc. have their Top 100 (or whatever) lists not being DOMINATED by protected content, THEN you will have a point...
The problem is that you are focusing on sites that promote copyright infringement (some would argue that they induce copyright infringement).

When I download the latest Fedora or Ubuntu release, a WoW update, or a TAS video, I don't hit TPB or ISOHunt to get it. I get a torrent from Fedora or from Blizzard.

said by manfmmd:

Until then, the VAST majority of "P2P" traffic consists of copyrighted content/intellectual property.
Well, this is absolutely correct, but only because (at least in the US) works are copyrighted by default the instant that they are created. That means that pretty much everything is copyrighted.

The question is whether or not you are authorized to download, not whether the work is copyrighted. Ubuntu consists primarily of copyrighted software (with some exclusions like SQLite, which is public domain) but I can still download it without committing copyright infringement because the various open-source licenses that govern Ubuntu give me explicit authorization to do so. Similarly, World of Warcraft is a copyrighted work, yet I can download it legally from Blizzard using BitTorrent since I am authorized to do so.

said by manfmmd:

Until then, you're just being intellectually dishonest.
In 2005, SCOTUS introduced a new concept, "Inducement", which can create liability for the operator of a service or producer of a product if they operate it distribute it with the object of encouraging copyright infringement.

It can be compellingly argued that TPB (and other torrent sites) explicitly encourage copyright infringement, and are therefore illegal.

It is considerably more difficult to argue that P2P technologies (such as BitTorrent) encourage copyright infringement. BitTorrent clients, like web browsers, operating systems, and the Internet itself, merely facilitate copyright infringement.

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Bright House

Selling my principles for 20Mb Upstream

Verizon sent me the "DEPLOYMENT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD IS IMMINENT" letter today.

If we ever figure out whether Verizon is a black hat or not, don't tell me. If I can afford 20-50Mb upstream, I'm signing up. I gots servers I gots to get online.

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

Re: Selling my principles for 20Mb Upstream

I tried the whole servers on a residential connection thing and it just wasn't worth it. In the end I colocated. Much better and I don't have to worry about things like physical security, fire protection and backup power.

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Bright House

Re: Selling my principles for 20Mb Upstream

These are for my personal and business use. They're Music, Video, Software Repository, Linux Distros; etc.

It's easier for me to keep my entertainment collection where it is and share it with myself, than to upload terabytes of stuff.

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
japan
kudos:2
said by Noah Vail:

Verizon sent me the "DEPLOYMENT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD IS IMMINENT" letter today.
I received my "deployment is imminent" letter a couple of months ago. Since then, I've watched crews drop new conduit and pull fiber. I have yet to receive notification that the service is live.
said by Noah Vail:

If we ever figure out whether Verizon is a black hat or not, don't tell me. If I can afford 20-50Mb upstream, I'm signing up. I gots servers I gots to get online.
I would be interested too for the increased upload capacity. Unfortunately, VZ's cost/mth overshadows Cox's and I can't justify a 60% price increase for more upload capacity when I already have access to servers in a data center.

Z80A
Premium
join:2009-11-23

1 edit

MPAA, do as I say, not as I do

»mjg59.livejournal.com/78590.html
»torrentfreak.com/mpaa-steals-cod···license/

Perhaps the MPAA should lose their connectivity for repeated IP infringement violations.

They actually think people should respect their intellectual property rights while they blatantly ignore the intellectual property rights of others? Laughable.

The RIAA and MPAA would be able to claim this moral high ground if they weren't criminal organizations engaged in blackmail, extortion, bribery and IP theft and infringement.
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

Re: MPAA, do as I say, not as I do

The success of some of the members of the RIAA and MPAA was due to un-prosecuted IP infringement although a few of them only ripped off (completely legal BTW) the public domain.
This doesn't mean I condone copyright infringement but ISPs acting as copyright cops bypasses due process and that's very bad.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

Fire, aim, ready!

That's how the RIAA and MPAA do things.....
stewie3128

join:2008-11-20

VZ may just be talking to satisfy RIAA

Kicking people off the network costs VZ money, both in potential lost revenue after the customer disconnects, and in actually executing the process of booting someone off. Having worked in several VZ-sized companies, I know that they tend to look at any task as requiring 30 minutes of time, which equates to half of some employee's hourly wage, and that productivity cost adds up quickly.

So, VZ may not yet be interested in actually following through on booting customers for DMCA violations, but to avoid making an enemy of the entertainment industry, they at least need to make a show of supporting the industry's position on the issue.
chronoss2009
Premium
join:2008-09-23
kudos:2

hahahahaaha

1st they suck you in with terms about early termination
then they kick you off NO STRIKES

no warning no proof in court

Americans worse then french and Italians GO FIGURE
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

etf`

IF verizon kicks you off the network do you have to pay the high etf ?
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

tough talk on one end, advertising on the other..

Verizon needs to talk a tougher game, but in reality their own advertising materials indicate possible uses for 15, 25, 35, 50 megabit tiered broadband services. Ie, download a "DVD" in X amount of minutes or music or upload X amount of photos, etc. Verizon knows ALOT of it's broadband subscribership is NOT going to be utilizing the service for 100% legal use. The corporate interests still need to balance that with actually HAVING a customer base-- so in practical terms they will mostly go after those who are the "worst of the worst"... which the riaa & mpaa will have to settle for as a win-win, since these so-called consumers use the *MOST* bandwidth anyhow making the service much less profitable for the ISP..

The not 100% legal use of the internet is a primary reason for the kind of demand for services which got VERY GREEDY corporations to put aside self interests and provide what consumers want. The entertainment industry for decades created a protectionist ideology about it's content, licensing and fought against technologies that enabled consumers to control & copy content. When you get down to the core issues at hand.. the entertainment industry wants what alot of other industries want.. the manipulation of a democracy into another form of government to protect it's interests (as you can imagine, that's really not pro consumer or anything resembling social justice). Now maybe, just maybe some legislators will wake up to what is happening and tell these special interests what they can go do with a broken glass bottle.

If verizon wants to get to 40% market share where it now has FIOS deployed (FIOS-READY), guess which side will win out?

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

concerned

@rr.com

Re: tough talk on one end, advertising on the other..

The United States has been moving toward a European model of governance for a while. The current Admin. is merely escalating the cause. So this news about Verizon isn't surprising. Ironically Europeans are actually voting and moving slightly toward a more American system, or perhaps an ancient Greek system.

My biggest concern is the unfettered and unchecked power that Verizon gives both the RIAA and MPAA. Whether justified or not in their piracy causes, these corporate associations have already demonstrated a flagrant disregard for the law.

Allegedly the reporting process itself is said to be secret, therefore, the RIAA and MPAA can make accusations about any broadband subscriber. And since the process is not transparent, the subscriber would have little means to protect themselves. The content provider would receive autonomy and impunity not only over regulating their content, but could even infringe on basic rights, including those of communication.

So again, the importance of proper checks and balances and transparency in this process is the real issue. Too bad Washington lobbyists would never allow such a debate to see the light of day. I could easily see other publishing lobbyists pushing for the same type of authority.

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