 russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| Bureaucracy or safety? So did they ever figure out if this is a real problem or if it's a collision of old codes with new technology?
If Verizon is running non-metallic optical cable into the customer premises, any grounding or bonding is about as important as teats on a boar. | |
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tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
 ·Comcast
2 edits | Re: Bureaucracy or safety? If there was no safety hazard, Then the code should be changed. Still not a excuse for not following the current code today.
if it's an externally mounted powered device, then it MUST be properly grounded. If the power points are at all accessable, then it should be on a GFCI (this could be a problem for the ONT) that certainly goes beyond the pictures I've seen of even a good fios install.
Just because it's fiber optic, it doesn't mean it's totally non-metalic, most "self-supporting" drop cable have a support wire, either metal or fiber glass, to carry the weight/strain, something you can't do with optical fiber, without damaging it. Even a totally non'metalic drop can become the best available conductor for static, lightning, or the accidental short (dropped power line) and create a hazard. | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| said by tschmidt  :said by russotto : If Verizon is running non-metallic optical cable into the customer premises, any grounding or bonding is about as important as teats on a boar. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Some fiber cable include conductor to facilitate tracing even though they are not required for data transmission. However: I think Verizon drop cables are completely nonmetallic. It's a safety ground for internal wiring, not just for the incoming drop. The grounding isn't necessary per se for the ONT, but for all the things that get connected to the ONT. TVs and VCRs are notorious for leaking AC onto the coax shield. The proper grounding just gives a better path for the current to safely dissipate rather then through you if you should happen to contact the wire.
Is it a huge safety issue? No. Is your house going to burn down? Not likely. Are there thousands of existing telephone and cable drops that are improperly grounded across the country (and not just Verizon's fault)? Definitely. Is it worth doing correctly? Yes.
said by tschmidt :The lack of metallic conductor exiting the building means ONT is no different then any other electrical device. ONT is powered by three-wire grounded AC feed. I assume (but don't know for sure) that AC safety ground extends from power supply to ONT. I'd have to double check, but I thought my ONT's power supply was powered by just a polarized 2-prong connector. If that is the case, the actual power supply is just a variation wall-wart transformer and does not have a ground. | |
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NetAdmin
CCNA
join:2008-05-22
| Re: Bureaucracy or safety? said by cdru :The grounding isn't necessary per se for the ONT, but for all the things that get connected to the ONT. TVs and VCRs are notorious for leaking AC onto the coax shield. The proper grounding just gives a better path for the current to safely dissipate rather then through you if you should happen to contact the wire. Ding ding ding... A winner.
Is it a huge safety issue? No. Depending on the level of power leaked into the coax shielding, it can be. I have, on more than one occasion, heard of techs getting nice jolts from older installs that weren't grounded (it was not always required by code).
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skuv
@rr.com
| Doesn't everyone know that the FIOS ONT's have coax in them?
This is copper, and carries an electric signal, and must be grounded, just like the cable company must ground their coax.
Why do people keep thinking the whole thing is fiber? | |
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Lee GWB
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ | Re: Bureaucracy or safety? You Sir have won the $66,000 Question | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: Bureaucracy or safety? said by tschmidt :If what cdru posted is correct that ONT power supply uses a two wire plug then the only source of safety ground is bonding ONT to residential ground system. I was mistaken. It was flat, but was a 3-conductor cord. However, that was only to the power supply. To the battery pack, it was just a 2-wire connection. | |
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| PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| It's a convenient way for FIOS competitors and anti-FIOS entities to beat them up. The bonding requirements in Article 810 and 820 of the National Electric Code are quite specific, and alot of installs, even if they are bonded somehow to the house system ground, are not done strictly to Code. I'd guess about 90% of the DBS satellite installs I've seen are not to Code (e.g., dish bonded to nearby light fixture, rather than one of the locations listed in Artical 810). | |
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| u3912974
join:2007-07-31
San Francisco, CA | I think better grounding for my cable tv helped an issue i was having with picture quality. | |
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kayak1
@verizon.com | fios grounding Then how come they dont revisit all the cable co. installs? Most of them are'nt grounded properly either. | |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: fios grounding said by kayak1 :
Then how come they dont revisit all the cable co. installs? That seems to be a common problem - Cablecos not using coax ground block bonded to residential ground system at point of entry.
Have run into that with several friend. Due to common use of Multi Grounded Neutral (MGN) by utilities there can be substantial difference in potential between utility ground and residential ground.
We had a lengthy discussion about this in the Electronics forum. »Current being induced by cable system
If you are interested in the gory details:
»www.mikeholt.com/documents/stray···3-03.pdf
/tom | |
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mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | It seems they care more about having them quickly installed to minimize costs, cheap bastards! | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | They may be yet. I understand that the inspectors from Verizon are also noting sub-standard cable installations to present to the commission. | |
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NetAdmin
CCNA
join:2008-05-22
| I know our local provider has been cracking down on grounding issues. I have yet to see a recent install that wasn't grounded properly and tagged with a "Do Not Remove this Wire!" tag on the ground conductor.
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brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH | Not Grounded?=Hack Installer Doesn't matter whether the ONT needs to be grounded or not.(it does by the way). The lazy hack install technician did not do his job in the first place. | |
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| ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
3 edits | Re: Not Grounded?=Hack Installer Theres more work to FiOS than grounding an ONT. In case you didnt know.
When an installation can take up to 8 hours for a triple play... some techs didnt see the importance in properly grounding an ONT which is fed by non-metallic fiber optics ! I know a lot of you geeks sitting at your deskjob couldnt possibly understand what goes into physical labor on a daily basis.. so I forgive you for idiotic comments.
The majority of FiOS installs , even from the beginning have been grounded. They havnt been grounded EXACTLY to specs. The rules are overly strict and exxagerated.
Not one single instance of injury or property damage with FiOS being around for a few years now.. even with the so-called "hack jobs" | |
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| | brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| Re: Not Grounded?=Hack Installer It is a hack job. You sound like one of the hacks that put them in. One does not ground the ONT for the same reasons that a copper drop is grounded. Just because the ONT is fed by fiber does not make a difference. The electronics inside the ONT are easily fried if not grounded properly. | |
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FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Grounding? The whole system is grounded through the power source. It has 3 prongs, not 2. What would grounding it 2x do?
In 2004 i was still using verizon dsl before we switched to fios later that year. One afternoon i was on the phone with me mum & talking about what to do for dinner. Right in the middle of the conversation there was a flash of light & the phone went dead. Moments later very loud thunder. For 2 days i had a metallic taste in my mouth. Needless to say i was a bit shaken up when i connected the dots.
FIOS does not have conductor running from its street boxes, just a standard double strand fiber line. The power comes from inside the home, which is or by code should be grounded. Not only that, but also unlike copper based POTS, the outlet you plug the power source into has a circuit breaker (or in some older homes a fuse). So it's grounded AND has a circuit breaker. Not only this, but the one ours is hooked to is a ground fault interrupt style breaker which is designed to save people, not just avoid an overload.
If they wanna waste $ putting in grounding stuff hey thats all find & good, but in 99.9% of cases it shouldn't be needed.
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| brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| Re: Grounding? You are 100% wrong. The first ONTs that were placed used a two prong plug. The ONTs need to be grounded according to the installation specs. In the copper world, no ground, no service. The installers are too lazy, incompetent, stupid, or whatever you like. | |
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anon10101101
@verizon.net | Re: Grounding? Its not a safety issue , bonding the ONT protects the equip if wires become energized by lighting. That number 10 ground wire which is standard practice wont do squat if you take a major lighting hit or power surge. | |
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BlueConnect
join:2004-04-02
FFX, VA
| Re: Grounding? Tellabs ONT
I can not speak for anyone else but my Tellabs 1611 ONT has a 12VDC (14.82) feed from the VDC/battery charger that receives a 48VDC feed from the AC/DC converter. The AC side of the converter is supplied via a standard 120VAC grounded service. Since the ONT is DC powered it does not require a ground to function but the return side of the VDC is usually tied to ground for reference and the ONT does produce a RF signal, that service usually requires a reference ground. Also there are status signals that go between the ONT and VDC/charger. These may also require a reference, not saying they are RS-232 but they are unbalanced and may be similar. | |
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| | public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| said by brainlessdog :You are 100% wrong. The first ONTs that were placed used a two prong plug. The ONTs need to be grounded according to the installation specs. In the copper world, no ground, no service. The installers are too lazy, incompetent, stupid, or whatever you like. PSTN is a potential hazard when the protector is missing or not grounded. In older houses where rework was done, the protector may be bypassed.
None of this applies to fiber unless a messengered cable is used. Can somebody verify that such cables were never used in residential installs? | |
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| | | brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| Re: Grounding? Let me start at the beginning. ONT runs off of Battery Backup Unit. BBU runs off of Power Supply. ONLY TWO wires run from the power supply to the BBU. ONLY TWO power wires run from the BBU to the ONT. The ONT has 2 grounding lugs, one for the earth ground and one for the metallic tracer that is used in underground installs only. The metal is a thin wire attached to the side of the drop that is used as a tracer to find the buried wire when Dig Safe or whoever needs to trace the underground wire. Sometimes the tracer wire is used in aerial installs only because regular wire wasn't available. Even though the Power Supply is plugged into a 3 prong outlet, the ONT is NOT grounded.
The ONT needs to be grounded!!!!! It might work fine with out the ground but it needs the ground to operate correctly. From what I hear is that foreign voltage gets into the ONT and messes up the electronics. You can get noise on the phone line, slow data, and bad video. Try placing an ONT next to a transformer in a store. If it isn't grounded it doesn't work to good. | |
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| | | | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
2 edits | Re: Grounding? There is no metal tracer in drop wires !!!
There are 2 kinds of ONT's , some have 2 prong cords from the BBU , some have 3 !!!
For someone that pretends to knows everything, you dont know enough.
quote:
Sometimes the tracer wire is used in aerial installs only because regular wire wasn't available.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. NEVER HAPPENS , EVER. One in a million FiOS installs. | |
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| | | | | | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
2 edits | Re: Grounding? Youre calling BURIED wire a DROP. Look up the word "drop" in the dictionary , see what you come up with.
You know what, I'll just tell u. Its called a DROP, because it is DROPPED from the POLE. get it?? Now I'll repeat myself. DROP WIRES do NOT have metal tracers within them. I have not debated buried fiber optic cables.
Got it?
Your name kinda suits you, I like it. | |
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| | | | | | | brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
1 edit | Re: Grounding? What if the wire is dropped from a pole and goes into buried conduit to the customers house? Is it still a drop wire? How can anyone trace the fiber underground if it doesn't have a tracer on it. | |
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| | | | | | | | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT | Re: Grounding? OK, so now youre talking about .001% of FiOS installs being in that scenario... and NO, I wouldnt call that a drop wire either. | |
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| | | | | | | | | brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| Re: Grounding? There is more than you think. New homes set off the road will have private property poles. You run aerial down the driveway then through a conduit to the house. Happens all the time. What about buried developements that have all services underground? The wires that run from the pedestals are also called drop wires. I didn't name them, that is what they are called. | |
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VZ NJ Tech
@verizon.net
| Ground and Bond class will start asap... Today I grounded the VERIZON ont to the ground wire of the electric service panel.Let me say this again I as a V.Z. Tech grounded the VERIZON ont to the ground wire of the electric service panel...
If you have any problems with your ont call the F.S.C. and we will come out and correct the problem.
The ont is the responsibility of VERIZON.
By the way we have two types of ont's,one that has a two prong plug that requires a ground.The second has a three prong plug that we don't ground because the ground wire is included and becomes common when attached at the bottom of the ont...When you plug your microwave with the three prong cord do you ground that...No because the third prong connects to the ground in your house...
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: Ground and Bond class will start asap... said by VZ NJ Tech :
By the way we have two types of ont's,one that has a two prong plug that requires a ground.The second has a three prong plug that we don't ground because the ground wire is included and becomes common when attached at the bottom of the ont...When you plug your microwave with the three prong cord do you ground that...No because the third prong connects to the ground in your house...
Not in New York. If a JiONT is installed and there are any wires (coax, ethernet ,or phone)going outside the ont MUST be grounded to the Electrical ground using existing rules. If no wires go outside, as in the case of an MDU, a TI442 adapter must be installed with 10 gauge wire to the ONT. | |
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irsean
join:2001-05-10
Redlands, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| bonding Regardless of Code, Verizon is quite clear to us techs...GROUND EVERYTHING.
I've done a lot of voice repairs that were fixed by bonding the ONT. I never trust the just-insides. Even if the "quick" (tip to tip, ring to ground on butt set) ground test "passes", I bond according to California code (bonding to either elec box or house side of met. gas pipe if no ground terminal is present).
Again, ALWAYS GROUND YOUR CKTS!!!
Shame on those techs that were too lazy to do their jobs. For gods sakes, we aren't cable or satelite worker. And yes, I terminate every cable feed I disco (which is a lot, MUAH-HAH-HAH).
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Verizon Slowly Revisiting FiOS Installs For Grounding Issues
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