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Verizon To Test LTE In Seattle And Boston
Carrier hopes to cover 100 million POPs eventually...
by Karl Bode Tuesday 28-Jul-2009 tags: competition · business · Verizon Wireless Broadband · wireless
In a conference call with analysts to discuss yesterday's earnings (which we already discussed at length), Verizon Wireless executives announced that they'll first test faster LTE wireless broadband technology in Seattle and Boston. Verizon had already announced that they'd test the technology in 2009 for a 2010 launch in roughly thirty markets, but they'd yet to mention specific markets. According to Verizon chief financial officer John Killian, Seattle and Boston will go live for LTE testing "later this year."

The ultimate goal (is) to cover all of our pops with this great product by the end of 2013.
-Verizon CFO John Killian on Verizon's LTE plans
Verizon says they've already seen downstream speeds of up to 60Mbps, but it's obviously too early for them to announce commercial speeds and prices for the service. "It will very much follow the kind of pricing structure that we have in place today," Killian says -- suggesting we may still see monthly caps and overages. "We’ll continue to monitor the market," he says.

Killian says Verizon wants to eventually provide LTE through "roughly" 100 million points of presence (POPs). "Our plan is to cover 100 million pops," he notes. "In 2011 and 2012, we’ll continue to expand significantly with the ultimate goal being to cover all of our pops with this great product by the end of 2013," says Killian.

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lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

Backhaul?

What is Verizon doing to upgrade backhaul to their network? Clearwire was having huge problems getting enough bandwidth to their sites...

DaveDude
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
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Re: Backhaul?

I think that why its going to take 4-5 years, 100 million pops need to be upgraded to Fiber. There is no way they can do it fast.

tiger72
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Re: Backhaul?

said by DaveDude:

I think that why its going to take 4-5 years, 100 million pops need to be upgraded to Fiber. There is no way they can do it fast.
Maybe Verizon's FIOS strategy was more than just for residential internet.

If Verizon taps into their FIOS backbone in urban areas, this could be a relatively inexpensive upgrade for them.

And go figure, Verizon has FIOS rollouts in both markets.
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jvanbrecht

join:2007-01-08
Bowie, MD

Re: Backhaul?

There is no need to tap into FIOS anything. Verizon owns much of the US backbone in the first place, that being the merger/purchase of MCI, which used to be MCI Worldcom which was UUNET before that. Verizon currently operates the largest backbone in the US, so there is no real limitation for them.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
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Re: Backhaul?

Backbone has nothing to do with last mile fiber.

You can't cut/tap backbone to feed to a tower. Plus most of the intercity fiber is perma-leased by VZB.

tiger72
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said by jvanbrecht:

There is no need to tap into FIOS anything. Verizon owns much of the US backbone in the first place, that being the merger/purchase of MCI, which used to be MCI Worldcom which was UUNET before that. Verizon currently operates the largest backbone in the US, so there is no real limitation for them.
True, but a backbone doesn't really line up well with cellular cells. You need a network which branches out to get to the cell sites. That's the hard part. I doubt anyone believes that ATT has a shortage of backbone bandwidth. The problem has always been the last mile(s) to the cell site.

Traditionally, they'd run T-1's from their network backbone waaayyy out to the cell site (or use microwaves). FIOS gives VZ the ability to very cheaply speed up their cell sites in metro areas on that last mile.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara

elbm

join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD

2 edits

Re: Backhaul?

We (VZ core) have been doing a ton off work for VZW in Maryland bringing fiber to every tower, equipping each site with Fuji FW 4100's sonet muxes and setting them up for GigE over fiber back-haul. The push is to have most done and up by the end of the year. We also have a big project coming up to do some thing similar for ATT, non-sonet, in the near future but in this area VZW is way ahead.

Fios does not have the redundancy and rubustness for carrier grade transport.

ThrowDemsOut
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said by lakerfan82:

What is Verizon doing to upgrade backhaul to their network? Clearwire was having huge problems getting enough bandwidth to their sites...
And what about devices to actually test this. Other than employees, who would have devices that could access the network?
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kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?

join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD

Re: Backhaul?

There will be no LTE handsets for about 2 years. Testing starts with data cards for laptops. That's where you're gonna put the new network through its paces, not with cell phones.
bemis

join:2008-07-18
Stoneham, MA
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said by lakerfan82:

What is Verizon doing to upgrade backhaul to their network? Clearwire was having huge problems getting enough bandwidth to their sites...
Is this really an issue? I mean, the parent company operates a fairly massive PON already in the form of FIOS, so what is so hard about adding drops at cell tower sites?

But I'm a complete layman when it comes to this stuff so I'm probably missing something here.

ptrowski
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Re: Backhaul?

That would require wiring areas that are not specifically Verizon territory I believe.
bemis

join:2008-07-18
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Re: Backhaul?

said by ptrowski:

That would require wiring areas that are not specifically Verizon territory I believe.
Good point.

It looks like the test markets are territories within the Verizon footprint, including FIOS? So maybe they're getting the low hanging fruit as soon as possible and will pay the higher costs for enabling other areas?

It seems like the existing customers for mobile broadband will paint them a good map of the areas where they will see the most profit from this particularly if they keep the price in line with their existing EVDO service and offer devices that are both EVDO and LTE.

lakerfan82

join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

Re: Backhaul?

Isn't Seattle mostly Qwest territory? Verizon may have a few FIOS areas in suburban Seattle (which they have recently sold off) but Seattle is not within the Verizon footprint.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
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said by bemis:

Is this really an issue? I mean, the parent company operates a fairly massive PON already in the form of FIOS, so what is so hard about adding drops at cell tower sites?

But I'm a complete layman when it comes to this stuff so I'm probably missing something here.
You can't put a cell tower on PON and have it be in the same congestion zone as FIOS users. Cell tower requires guaranteed QOS/circuit switched/dedicated pseudowire/TDM line.

Also P2P/SONET fiber uses high quality parts and practices (kevlar fiber cable and sacrificial horse shoes with slack when the pole is taken out by a car) than "POTS" 48 hour repair time, since it has an SLA.

tiger72
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Re: Backhaul?

How can VZ not dedicate x-mbps to their tower with QoS? It may not have the typical SLA, but last I checked, cellular services don't have one anyways.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: Backhaul?

said by tiger72:

How can VZ not dedicate x-mbps to their tower with QoS? It may not have the typical SLA, but last I checked, cellular services don't have one anyways.
Cellular service doesn't have an SLA, the tower links sure do. Otherwise the telco will you have to wait 3 days before they can send a tech out to look at that fractional T3, and then the guys "in the network" gotta do their thing with an unknown ETA, and maybe they will fix it, otherwise the telco and you will have to open a new trouble ticket.

Also QOS isn't the end all. What about jitter caused by an ill placed FIFO buffer in a "consumer grade" ONT or OLT? What if the circuit board wasn't designed with real time/deterministic timing? Also the OLT does bandwidth arbitration for the upload. What if the bandwidth request loop takes too long? what if by chance all the ONTs send a request sequentially, can you guarantee that the OLT will always allocate 50kbit of bandwidth slice to the tower every 5 ms, or is it on a first come first served basis who gets that time slot in the PON standard? Does the PON standard have any possibility of a collision domain (if so, auto disqualified)?

What about maintenance? Does there exist a system to notify the FIOS subscribers/users of downtime in the trouble ticket system? is there an entry in the DB of a mandatory contact (VZW NOC) before touching the OLT or FDH?

What about redundancy? What about a SONET loop? cut any part of the loop, all nodes continue to work with no measurable service impact. What you going to do with FIOS? 2 fibers to the same FDH?

Plus LTE towers need atleast 50 mbitps of bandwidth. What if the area is still on BPON? You just permanently cut 1/3rd of the upload away to residential FIOS subscribers.

And what about the kevlar fiber? what about optical attenuation of the FO cable? Does anyone make a ONT with an industrial/mission critical Ethernet transceiver that wont lag or jitter?
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
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Verizon is a Tier 1 and an ILEC. 'nuff said.

tiger72
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Re: Backhaul?

so is ATT... We all know how great they are...
iansltx

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Re: Backhaul?

True, but Verizon has FiOS and AT&T doesn't. If I remember correctly Verizon has 2.5x the bandwidth to the node (2.488 Gbps vs. 1 Gbps) vs. AT&T and Verizon's last mile fiber network is in marked contrast to AT&T's. Granted, there will be areas where Verizon doesn't have FiOS, but at that point they have to figure something out if they want speeds above EvDO. At which point they have the upper hand versus Clear because, in some areas, Verizon provides their own infrastructure all the way from the backbone.

DaveDude
No Fear

join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
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Re: Backhaul?

It doesnt matter how much backbone they have, because there is no fiber going out to these sites. There is probably a year lag, in just ordering for these sites. Once the site can send Gigs of data, then its becomes useful..

Rob23

@windstream.net

Re: Backhaul?

Verizons cto said they have fiber to """ MAYBE """ 40% of their nationwide cell sites.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

LTE

LTE seems to have great potential. If its not caped severely it could be a first choice for broadband (non-gamers at least).
bemis

join:2008-07-18
Stoneham, MA
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Re: LTE

said by DataRiker:

LTE seems to have great potential. If its not caped severely it could be a first choice for broadband (non-gamers at least).
I'll assume you mean first choice for wireless/mobile broadband and not broadband in general?

LTE is not going to perform like fiber, which probably is going to be my first choice for broadband over the next ~10-20 years

Even if you were hinting at it being a first choice due to it's ability to be a single solution for people who want both mobile and fixed broadband I don't think it's going to be a perfect fit. I did something like this for approx. 6 months with a Sprint EVDO card, but what I found is that it really is only acceptable if you are the only internet user within the house, otherwise you sacrifice either mobility or accessibly to multiple people.

What would be very nice is if the carriers like AT&T and Verizon who operate as both fixed and wireless ISP's would come up with a system that accounts for heavy discounting of one or the other service--for example in a FIOS or DSL area VZW could offer a 20% discount on their wireless data services to FIOS customers, and vice versa for AT&T U-verse.

funchords
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100 million POPs?

Wow! 100 million POPs for 87 million subscribers.

tiger72
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Re: 100 million POPs?

100 million POPs just means that they cover about 100 million people. TMO's current 3g network surpasses 110million POPs, and you can see its size on their coverage map.

w0g
o.O

join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR

Re: 100 million POPs?

I think it's a typo.. POPs refer to point-of-presence, kind of like a hub that connects multiple sites and actually connects to the Internet.
Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

1 edit

Re: 100 million POPs?

Yes he is correct, its where the company has equipment to connect to the internet, and that's mostly where you start off with your network. Like if I was running a network at a school, the pop would be where I connect to my fiber provider for the internet.

tiger72
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Re: 100 million POPs?

POPs refers to population covered in the wireless industry - not "Point of Presence" in the typical ISP sense.

run a Howardforums search, and you'll see that POPs refers not to access points but persons covered by (but not necessarily subscribiding to) a cellular service.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara

funchords
Hello
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Re: 100 million POPs?

said by tiger72:

POPs refers to population covered in the wireless industry - not "Point of Presence" in the typical ISP sense.
Thanks! I learned something today!

w0g
o.O

join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR

And 60Mbps thing?

This isn't going to be what you're getting as a client. This is the amount available all together for clients to share.
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kamunikator

@comcast.net

Deployment to towers

I can say from a personal interaction with building fiber out to the tower that you can get done 100 towers in a year from start to finish. Most of the cell companies are utilizing the unused bandwidth of the cable operators who have a stranglehold on the market. The cell providers work with a 3rd party who does all that work for them with the cable company. Cable companies have the most and somewhat easiest rights for access to conduit and such other locations that a company who doesn't have a presence or existing runs through a market.

phoneboy3

@shawcable.net

Yawn......

I call BS. More propaganda. No way they can upgrade the sites that fast even with unlimited funds. Oh, yea btw there is the huge up front cost even though they are still paying for 3G upgrades.

By test market they probably mean a couple cell towers in Seattle and Boston just so they can say...see it's up and running and just around the corner.

elbm

join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD

1 edit

Re: Yawn......

I am doing the work and here in the mid-atlantic we are running fiber to and lighting up 200+ towers per quarter.

This is the equipment we are palcing at all the sites.
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