 
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing I still don't get what workers gain by striking. Why would it be so hard to work under the terms of the current contract until a new one is negotiated, even if it takes years? Workers still get paid for their work, still get raises, and work gets done, everyone stays happy.
Personally, I think the union might be realizing that Verizon's potential cost of replacing them might be going down. If this is the case, then they would be the big losers in a strike.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|  | neotorian
join:2008-08-03
Sarasota, FL
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going.
And fyi, it's a little more expensive to replace the bulk of us than you might think. Craft is a trade that can't be learned over night; yes you can train a guy to do it in 1-2 weeks, but if you saw our systems and how screwed up things can get, it would be more trouble than it's worth to send out a bunch of guys that have only seen it in a book because they would quickly learn that what they saw in training is COMPLETELY different than how it is in the real world, which is exactly why our tech support sucks so bad sometimes.
I hope we don't have to strike though, I really do. Even if the company would be doing it for the wrong reasons. | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing The union will sell out future workers and past retirees in the new contract.
The deal will ultimately give current workers a raise and some protection from layoffs. New hires will get reduced pay and benefits and the retirees will be lucky to keep benefits at the same levels they have now, even though their costs(especially health care) continue to rise.
The company will keep hiring contractors as they reduce the size of the union workforce thru retirement and attrition(people who quit or are fired for cause).
Given the world economy, union power will continue to decline.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
1 edit | Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have?
Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. | |
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by Dogfather  :Verizon isn't competing in a "World Economy". What foreign competition does Verizon have? The reality of a world economy and lower 3rd world pay scales reduces the costs of labor around the world - even for companies and their workers who don't do business outside the country. As worker pay scales sink in international competitive industries it reduces pay scales in all industries.
All Verizon has to do is say to the union: "we will replace all you union workers and where will you get equivalent pay in other industries." The union leadership knows their workers would take drastic pay cuts if they hit the street. And that is how even a company like Verizon can reduce wages - thru the threat of making their workers compete against foreign workers if they eliminate their jobs at Verizon and force them to find jobs in other industries(where only 15% of the workforce is unionized). And don't forget the threat of using contractors/outsourcing who use cheaper immigrant(legal & otherwise) labor flooding in to the U.S.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | plat2on1
join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY
clubs:
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by Dogfather :Verizon doesn't compete in a global economy and doesn't have to compete with anyone but other domestic suppliers. And they would only suffer pay cuts in the open market because of gov't failure to enforce employment law. Gov't always kisses the ass of big business and loves illegal labor. Outsourced labor (like tech support) should also face 1000% tariffs. actually verizon does compete on a global market, for capital.
tariffs lol..yeah protectionism really works..  | |
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just a worker
@comcast.net | Our union has yet to take pay cuts, will not sell out our retirees, or anything else you are fantasising about | |
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MoeDumb
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| said by Dogfather :Meanwhile as our gov't continues to sell us out to China and Mexico, US standard of living will decline. Don't look now but China already owns us. The "For Sale" sign has already been taken down.
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Who is Jesus? and Why it matters (to YOU).
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
 ·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com
| Yeah, VZ union was like 80,000+ members now only 65,000.
My problem is NOT with the union employee that works at all. I have utter and complete disgust for the "union" itself. They, the CWA I know for sure, makes more than the employees do that are union members. A state rep who answers the phone makes $90,000 a year. Ever see a state rep or your union? I doubt it. They send your union reps to negotiate with the big "boss" in the room (he makes $200k or more for speeches and doing nothing).
Your two unions should have run ads in NYC and elsewhere giving people a full explanation of the things facing you and will eventually face them. Instead, they put out ads like "your call cannot be completed as dialed" so non-union people just found their "strike" a power play. Add in the lack of fixing things or installing things right and the public is like, "Hell, fire 'em!"
Unions have gone downhill because a lot of people don't trust them. They can negotiate a sucky contract then make you vote. The vote is secret at the local so no oversight. It barely passes. Of course, companies will give one type of craft a good deal and screw the other one--playing the union members against each other. Companies will also give Union Reps plum jobs to keep them happy while everyone else is getting screwed.
Unions also spend a lot of your money in politics backing the worst candidates possible. They backed Clinton and Clinton hit them with NAFTA. I'd say half the companies in the USA HATE NAFTA. Unions should really hate NAFTA.
VZ knows they need the techs so will give techs a good deal while screwing the office. I've read union contracts, before and after, and found that was the deal. Your office staff has tons of controls while techs have almost none in comparison. So, the office staff gets screwed by not meeting all those controls. In other words, the union is selling you out for the side that can get the contract passed. Screw the rest of them.
Your union is public information at unionfacts.org.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl | |
| | | mr man
join:2008-08-02
Denver, CO
| Be lucky for what you got. Craft folks make over $22 an hour and higher if you are a tech, plus overtime. Asking for union employees to pay part of your medical bennies is not asking much for the type of work/labor craft folks do.
Many other telcos and unionized employers cut out a lot of those bennies and Verizon will be setting a bad precedence if they give in to the union.
Verizon Wireless is non union and they are carrying the weight of the telco. Line loss means less revenue. Be happy you have a job, but be a little more realistic. Wireless employees are paid less an hour and have to pay for part of their bennies, yet they are securely employed. Outsourcing is a way for the company to count their land line lossess. And we know that is happening now. A strike will not stop that.
Expensive to replace? I think not. There are plenty of skilled contractors out there that can splice, test, answer phones, enter orders and install services that would love to have a stable job and pay into a decent health plan. What some may know in the field on a specific issue can be learned by anyone that puts their mind into it.
Unions act like blankets, all or nothing. This means they protect the very hard workers the same way they protect slackers. I used to be in a Verizon telco area and i can tell you that I have seen some techs out there just leeching, practicing to take on their new Walmart jobs while others should be promoted to mid or high management for their dedication to their hard earned money.
Sure, Mr Ivan and his cronies make an insane amount of money and I bet verizon is like a slew of other companies with slews of CEO's of this and that, making money and readying with their golden parachutes before they are made scapegoats; it is coporate greed at it's best. But, no one will intercede with that. So if the company revenues are down, what make you think that biting the hand that feeds you will cry uncle because of a strike vote? They can turn around and employ from the job pool, pay them less in return for a stable job as easy as 123. Read the news, it has happened before.
Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. | |
| | | | cwire
join:2007-06-07
Bedford, KY
·AT&T Southeast
1 edit | Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing are those wireless employees climbing poles in snow storms? do they crawl underneath some of the nastiest houses that can be imagined to install jacks? no, the bulk of the wireless employees are desk jockeys. should they be paid the same as the guys who risk life and limb everyday to keep the network up? do you know who gets the call in the middle of the night when the t-lines are down that feed your precious cell towers? that would be me. i get up at 2am and drive to towns i've never been to, to repair the circuits that without, the towers would be useless. screw you, i will not settle for less because we are losing landline customers. there is a lot more to the union employees jobs than pots. we are the heart any of the baby bells. | |
| | | | | sparky57
join:2003-05-18
New Bedford, MA | Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing As a Verizon CO tech in New England,I couldn't have said it better. We are the Network! | |
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SteveCon
IBEW 2222 Boston, MA
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Burlington, MA | Dead on, Brother! | |
| | | | | | SilentMan
join:2002-07-15
New York, NY
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by SteveCon :Dead on, Brother! Amazing to see people here defending a multibillion dollar company they have no stake in against the workers who keep the company going and making millions for its execs and top investors. You people defending corporations are just little joes with no class conscience who are always potential victims of these corporate vultures you like to defend, keep that in mind.
Workers Unite! | |
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SteveCon
IBEW 2222 Boston, MA
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Burlington, MA | Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing I think your reply was intended for someone other than me. | |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and RichK1957
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing I find the posts by people who are against Unions quite interesting, and almost laughable to boot.
Without beating a dead horse here, too much, I have come to realise that most people who despise unions are either jealous or have worked in a retail/supermarket union, and think their experiences are indicative of all unions.
While not a perfect system, every worker in this country owes their job and the benefits/conditions to a Union worker and the union they are members of, for fighting for those benefits/rights.
Unions exist to fight for worker's rights and to protect their membership from management abuses.
Union or not, a bad worker will be terminated, average and above will continue to work, as it should be.
Workers have ZERO say in what happens at any company, so they can not be held accountable for mismanagement at the companies they work for.
Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers.
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! | |
| | | | | | | | | seige101
join:2003-06-23
Palmer, MA
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. | |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and RichK1957
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by seige101 :said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. Well I too have seen the opposite, BLATANT electrical code violations and numerous unsafe conditions by non-union electrical workers..
Even at the job I am at now, the electrical code violations would run pages, if the inspectors were to show up, and this is in a building that is historically non-union.
I have also been on union jobs where the "customer" orders us to do work a certain way, usually in violation of electrical codes, or we are out!
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! | |
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MoeDumb
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by jwersan :said by seige101 :said by jwersan :Union labor is more highly trained and more efficient than their non-union counterparts, so the pay differential is negligible and in most cases a job can be cheaper with union workers. I call bs right there. I am currently working in a large building, the previous electrical contractor in the building was union, I am non union. I am retro fitting line voltage HCAC controls, and the shoddy work the previous company did was a joke. There is no consistency, some blatant unsafe connections and then the units where they installed the controls but never made the final connections. Well I too have seen the opposite, BLATANT electrical code violations and numerous unsafe conditions by non-union electrical workers.. Even at the job I am at now, the electrical code violations would run pages, if the inspectors were to show up, and this is in a building that is historically non-union. I have also been on union jobs where the "customer" orders us to do work a certain way, usually in violation of electrical codes, or we are out! Someone ought to start a blog... the whistleblower kind!
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Who is Jesus? and Why it matters (to YOU).
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dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
·Optimum Online
| said by cwire :are those wireless employees climbing poles in snow storms? do they crawl underneath some of the nastiest houses that can be imagined to install jacks? no, the bulk of the wireless employees are desk jockeys. should they be paid the same as the guys who risk life and limb everyday to keep the network up? do you know who gets the call in the middle of the night when the t-lines are down that feed your precious cell towers? that would be me. i get up at 2am and drive to towns i've never been to, to repair the circuits that without, the towers would be useless. screw you, i will not settle for less because we are losing landline customers. there is a lot more to the union employees jobs than pots. we are the heart any of the baby bells. Amazing how this happens every 4 years ... you folks have absolutely NO CLUE about the wireless industry and how it works.
Guess what?
You're damned right Wireless has folks climbing towers. You're damned right they deal with customers day in and day out. You're damned right they get called in the middle of the night to keep things running.
You're not the only ones out there working your tails off. If landline is the 'heart' of the baby bells, then wireless is the brains of the operation. | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| said by mr man :Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. yeah thats it...invest. Buy shares in the same companies that are cutting US jobs by outsourcing and gutting the middle class by accepting non-union unskilled labor. Hope your grandchildren are happy working for Walmart!
"Weekends...brought to you by unions everywhere!" | |
| | | | | Hellrazor
join:2002-02-02
Abyss
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing said by S_engineer :said by mr man :Be happy for what you have. Cut your spending and invest..even a pension is not enough 10 to 20 years from now.. yeah thats it...invest. Buy shares in the same companies that are cutting US jobs by outsourcing and gutting the middle class by accepting non-union unskilled labor. Hope your grandchildren are happy working for Walmart! "Weekends...brought to you by unions everywhere!" You could buy stock in Verizon. If you guys think you are so good, the stock can only go up.
"Non-union unskilled labor" Now that is an amusing quote. So a union tech is automaticly better than a non-union tech? You clowns are so full of shit it isn't funny. I worked on both sides of the union fence. All a union does is protect screwoffs, screw everyone but the majority present for voting and brainwash people who can't think for themselves.
In case you haven't noticed the big union shops like the UAW are falling apart. The unions have priced themselves right out of business in the US. It isn't the big corp pushing companies overseas, it is the overpaid union workers who are bancrupting them. Notice the nice overpaid union autoworkers who halfed new hires wages? Now tell me who is selling out? | |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox VOIP
·Skype
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing Unions are only 8.8% of all U.S. labor (not counting gov't union jobs--in other words, lazy gov't employees). That was twice that about 15 years ago.
Corruption in unions and unions effectively breaking companies, like GM, Ford, with their overpaid wages is why they are on their way out. GM and Ford's stupidity is 50% to blame but the other 50% rest on their unions. Only professional unions, have no idea why, are increasing. If unions, the CWA, think they will unionize WalMart, they are on crack or herion. They unionized other grocery stores and look at the results--WalMart crushes them. I really don't see how Winn Dixie stays afloat next to a WalMart here when prices are about 10% lower at WalMart. Well, 4 employees at Winn Dixie and maybe 30-40 at WalMart is why. And, no, Winn Dixie employees make minimum wage, which is less than WalMart ($10 an hour for most).
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl | |
| | | guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
 ·Verizon FIOS
·ViaTalk
| All those "profits" are being generated by non-union employees and contractors, all the skill and craft people are working in mostly Landline and a very small part of FIOS backend, which currently LOSES a couple a billion a quarter
By the unions own logic, the profits should go to the workers that earned the money, OK, so take the profit and give it back to VZ wireless workers as a bonus, and then let the unions take a pay cut to cover the losses the business they work in is losing every quarter
What , don't like your own logic, now you understand how the average works sees your whining about more pay and benefits while the company is losing money in your divisions covered by union contracts | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS
| said by neotorian :Because if we don't stand our ground, the company will walk all over us. What they were bringing to the table wasn't just as simple as making us pay a percentage of our health benefits; they wanted to take our retirement, extend and reduce any future raises, and basically drastically reduce what we got in the previous contract. Don't take any of this personally, but this is what really irks me about unions. Not just your union, or "blue color" unions or sports unions. Just unions in general.
A union have a contract. The contract expires, is renegotiated...whatever the circumstances, but ultimately the old contact is no longer in effect. During the renegotiations it's just presumed that everything must get better otherwise the union workers get screwed.
We live in a more or less free market society. Workers should get paid what the market wants to pay them, and conversely, the market should pays what the people are worth. If either side is not happy with the arrangement then don't accept the contact...but then you have to live with the consequences. As a worker, then that may mean you are going to go without any pay and/or job. For the company, that may mean that your best workers are going to go elsewhere and your quality of worker will suffer.
That's not a negotiation, it's a giant company trying to cut costs at the place where it should be giving back a little more because it's us that keep this company going. Any worker at a company can say that they are the ones that keep the company going. And to some degree that is true.
But answer me this, do you have any co-workers that only do average, or below average work? Any medium or large company has a few people that fit into that category. Do they keep the company going? They may do some, but they aren't the ones that are really moving the company. If they aren't really moving the company forward, why are they still around? That's right...the union.
I work in a very small web development company. Total current workforce: 5. We were 6, but we recently let someone go. He fit in the average or slightly below average category. Yes he helped out some, but he wasn't putting in 40 hours of work for a 40 hour paycheck that others put in. He wasn't slacking off nor did he take excessive breaks. His effort just wasn't enough and we cut him. In a union environment, I don't think it would have been possible to just cut him...we'd have to go through all sorts of bureaucratic red tape, making our eventual losses even more.
I won't argue that unions once served a purpose. In the late 19th century unions made a definite impact on ending child labor, improving safety, increasing pay, etc. Fast forward though to the 21st century. Child labor laws really aren't an issue any more. While there are dangers in the workplace, I don't think there are too many major companies that are exploiting their workers with unsafe work conditions that a union can help fight. So it's really just down to compensation...and non-union workers don't seem to have problems, in general, being compensated.
It probably an overly broad generalization, but to me it would seem that the ones that have the most to benefit from unions sticking around are the the under- or average-achievers. The above average worker is the type that companies want to have around and typically do something to keep them around. | |
| | | | | Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
| People should realize Verizon is a 1+ billion dollar profitable QUARTERLY company 4 many yrs, It can afford to TAKE care of me. This is not GM or Airlines, where my fellow union members did sacrifice their wages/benefits. VZ is extremely profitable, and now with FIOS IN NYC, A CASH COW, and I mean a cash cow. it has the money and I as a 28 yr employee of NYTEL/AT&T/NYNEX/BELL ATLANTIC AND NOW VERIZON, BETTER take care of me instead of giving chairman of the board & 5 other directors 82 Million dollars last yr. Come on people UNIONS has lost ground since Regan fire air traffic controllers & Clinton ok NAFTA. we as THE COMMON WORKER are now paying the price for it. Verizon CATERS TO BIG BUSINESS'S/WALL ST & SHARE HOLDERS, UNIONS CATERS TO THE WORKING MAN. SO IT IS DAVID VZ GOLIATH. I am so upset that the company hired contractors and especially brought out MCI (NOW VERIZON BUSINESS)Verizon busines is non-union people, AND WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT STATES NEW BUSINESS WORK IS "FOLDED" INTO THE UNION, BUT verizon does not look at it that way. They are breaking a contract & fios installed by contractors, that also is contractual, and they are breaking that. This is stuff "outside" folks don't see/know. The union employee is getting less work, then ask if we wanna leave (makes us an offer.)It is very scary and an omen, UNIONS don't have the bargaining and muscle anymore like we use to. Shit I want to work, I am a damn devoted "working" union man, but Verizon don't want me, so I ain't leaving quietly. Again A BILLION DOLLARS PLUS each quarter in PROFITS. trust me they can afford to spend roughly 3 billion dollars it cost each yr to take care of the union employees which is benefits (100+ billion dollar a yr company). They got the money. & remember I am on the landline side of the house which is shrinking, we know that, but again verizon wireless (which also is not union) made 1.5 million new customers this QUARTER. and on top of that now Verizon brought AL-Tel wireless 10 million customers for 28 BILLION and so stupid is 5 billion is the price & 23 billion of it is 'DEBT" NOW THAT IS A WASTE OF MONEY. so again, if u have 28 billion 2 buy another company, u can take care of me. Verizon has no foot to stand on. it has money and as a 28 union employee I want my piece of it. Absolutely no reason for this bargaining to be so stupidly intense. CWA/IBEW Union employees don't ask for the world, only to be compensated "fairly". Verizon will be for ever NEW YORK TELEPHONE, I cant wait for AT&T to buy Verzion so I can wear my New York Telephone Shirt. Remember history, at disvestire, there were 7 baby bells now there are two (well 3 Qwest) are now left, DO I SEE MO-NO-PO-LY AGAIN???? believe me it will happen... | |
| | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing they do take care of you already. they pay a part of your health care and they give a job with a raise. If you don't like what they already give you go find another job who will give you want you want. VZ does not owe a dime nor job.
and they do NOT have to take care of YOU, your family nor anyone else who works for them. Their purpose is to service their customers and turn a profit at doing so and put more money back in the company. Not pay you damn greedy ass union employees who think you need to hear $40+ an hour sitting your ass putting a fiber optic line in PVC for 3 hours or taking 8 or more hours to install FiOS when you have 2 others set for install the same day but you don't have to install them becuase the Union says you have such a long period to install each of them; VZ can't do anything to you. I call it BULLSHIT! If you don't like the way comapnies work i suggest you start your own and let your employees become union and start paying what they want plus 80=% in their healthcare. It won't happen you'll be on here bitching about how you hate unions too.
VZ SHOULD LOCK YOUR ASS OUT! KILL THE UNIONS! WE HAVE LABOR LAWS FOR A REASON! UNION'S SUCK! LOCK 'EM OUT VZ! | |
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See 11 replies to this post | |
| | mr man
join:2008-08-02
Denver, CO
| Tell me in your words what do you mean by "fairly"? You don't pay for health care and you make a wage higher than many jobs out there. And sorry, the auto industry was extremely profitable too, and they lost revenues, and they closed plants, and they laid off union workers. Find out what they are doing today? | |
| | | | Discolarry
join:2008-08-03
Freeport, NY
| Re: Cost of Worker Replacement Must Be Decreasing fair is: when a company is profitable then its own workers should share in the profits. We are only asking for our benefits to remain the same or will of course take more, again realize they have the money. Yes auto was extremely profitable but a company is run by managers, not union/or common workers, i blame the big guys WHO MADE the decision in the auto industry. people really don't realize we are asking for a fair package, not the world. just because people pay for their benefits don't mean we have to. We are extremely profitable and will forever be. it is called MONOPOLY, and thats the way it is and I am in it. Again if u were in my shoes u think differently. I respect your comments. | |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA | Always something for nothing. Sad. | |
| | | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| said by Discolarry :People should realize Verizon is a 1+ billion dollar profitable QUARTERLY company 4 many yrs, It can afford to TAKE care of me. This is not GM or Airlines, where my fellow union members did sacrifice their wages/benefits. VZ is extremely profitable, and now with FIOS IN NYC, A CASH COW, and I mean a cash cow. it has the money and I as a 28 yr employee of NYTEL/AT&T/NYNEX/BELL ATLANTIC AND NOW VERIZON, BETTER take care of me instead of giving chairman of the board & 5 other directors 82 Million dollars last yr. Come on people UNIONS has lost ground since Regan fire air traffic controllers & Clinton ok NAFTA. we as THE COMMON WORKER are now paying the price for it. Verizon CATERS TO BIG BUSINESS'S/WALL ST & SHARE HOLDERS, UNIONS CATERS TO THE WORKING MAN. SO IT IS DAVID VZ GOLIATH. I am so upset that the company hired contractors and especially brought out MCI (NOW VERIZON BUSINESS)Verizon busines is non-union people, AND WE HAVE A CONTRACT THAT STATES NEW BUSINESS WORK IS "FOLDED" INTO THE UNION, BUT verizon does not look at it that way. They are breaking a contract & fios installed by contractors, that also is contractual, and they are breaking that. This is stuff "outside" folks don't see/know. The union employee is getting less work, then ask if we wanna leave (makes us an offer.)It is very scary and an omen, UNIONS don't have the bargaining and muscle anymore like we use to. Shit I want to work, I am a damn devoted "working" union man, but Verizon don't want me, so I ain't leaving quietly. Again A BILLION DOLLARS PLUS each quarter in PROFITS. trust me they can afford to spend roughly 3 billion dollars it cost each yr to take care of the union employees which is benefits (100+ billion dollar a yr company). They got the money. & remember I am on the landline side of the house which is shrinking, we know that, but again verizon wireless (which also is not union) made 1.5 million new customers this QUARTER. and on top of that now Verizon brought AL-Tel wireless 10 million customers for 28 BILLION and so stupid is 5 billion is the price & 23 billion of it is 'DEBT" NOW THAT IS A WASTE OF MONEY. so again, if u have 28 billion 2 buy another company, u can take care of me. Verizon has no foot to stand on. it has money and as a 28 union employee I want my piece of it. Absolutely no reason for this bargaining to be so stupidly intense. CWA/IBEW Union employees don't ask for the world, only to be compensated "fairly". Verizon will be for ever NEW YORK TELEPHONE, I cant wait for AT&T to buy Verzion so I can wear my New York Telephone Shirt. Remember history, at disvestire, there were 7 baby bells now there are two (well 3 Qwest) are now left, DO I SEE MO-NO-PO-LY AGAIN???? believe me it will happen... The air traffic controller issue is not relevant. Congress passed a law that made it illegal for the gov't union to strike, to protect the people. Reagan was upholding the law as set forth by Congress.
NAFTA opened up free trade. If American companies have goods to sell, doesn't it make sense to try to be able to sell to as many as possible? That allows a company to grow, hire more employees, who will pay taxes, expanding the tax base, which means more revenue for the gov't...... | |
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See 22 replies to this post | |
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Rossco17
@comcast.net | Never been in union huh? | |
| | | | Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO
clubs:
·Comcast
| I'd point out that Circuit City's management is currently learning painfully that firing your most experienced workers and hiring cheaper replacements. Unfortunately, it's a lesson that frequently needs to be relearned...there is a real value to paying for workers with experience who know what they are doing.
That being said, I'd be all for unions if I hadn't seen them protecting some really worthless employees. I love the idea of unions in theory. In practice, it's just extra politics that you have to navigate in order to get ahead and extra protection for the incompetent.
--
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." | |
|
Me in RI
@cox.net
| my take on it I am a non union contractor in RI for FiOs. The strike would be bad for everyone, most importantly the customer at large. No one wants a strike, not in this economy. The Union worker needs this deal to work, so they do not lose what they have worked hard to maintain. Its their jobs that are being messed with, and it isnt right. No matter union or not, we all have our livelihoods to consider, and at the end of the day, union vs. non union we do work as a team, and i am looking forward to things returning to normal so we can provide an excellent service, to our customer. Now part of the issue aside from healthcare is the contracted non union worker taking away the "sales" etc. form the union folks. My take on it is that we still work as a team, and we help keep verizon going too. It s still a job, and we still need to live our lives too. I am looking to a long and happy relationship with our verizon union team mates. | |
| MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| Hoping for win-win I know things got off topic here, but I do hope that things can be settled soon, in a way that all sides can live with. Who was it that said that "You know it's a fair negotiation when neither side gets everything they want"?
When contracts were up, I never wanted to go on strike, and I imagine that most don't want to here, either. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL
| Bargaining update August 3, 2008 12:40 a.m.
Negotiations Continue
Statement of Unified Bargaining Committees
The unified CWA-IBEW bargaining committees continue to negotiate economic, employment security and retirement security issues. Progress continues but issues remain, particularly concerning employment security and union jobs and recognition.
We must remain unified and disciplined, working on the job and working for a just contract.
Thanks to your incredible mobilization, the company has finally started to move. Although we have not come to agreement on our major issues, we have made enough progress to agree continue discussion.
This means that all tours will continue as scheduled. All contract provisions are still in force. Flying squads will continue to monitor company activities such as moving trucks and holding training.
Your bargaining committees will be working throughout tomorrow to reach a fair settlement. We retain to the option to call a strike at any time.
Again, it is your mobilization that is giving the bargaining committees power at the negotiating table.
Source: Unity @ Verizon
Link -- »www.unionvoice.org/cwa_unity_ver···19723257
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| | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH | Re: Bargaining update then all your strike VZ has the power not the Union.
LOCK OUT TIME! | |
|
Mully
@verizon.com
| Jobs Through American history jobs have migrated to cheaper areas. At one time the New England area was full of garment and other industries. They migrated south in the US where labor was cheaper. As time went on they migrated further. It's not new. Tariffs will only hurt us as other countries retaliate. Think Smoot/Hawley the catalyst of the great depression.
Much of our trade deficit if gasoline and oil imports. Which is a debate right now in Washington over drilling and exploration. The party of the "common man" is blocking this for reasons I don't understand.
As for VZ..A skilled tradesman is worth the money. Those who know; know. Those that speculate; don't. | |
|
datguy8
@verizon.net
| previous contracts the union took less money in return for more benefits.
THats what people dont realize.. Unions accepted less pay increases for more benefits, so essentially by agreeing to "pay" for those benefits now would amount to a wage cut.
Other unions who pay for benefits also make a higher hourly wage (i.e. contructions unions, electrical unions) they make a lot more per hour but then have money taken out for benefits.
VZ is a profitable corporation- they are not bleeding millions like the car companies. And the higher ups have certainly rewarded themselves greatly.
If things were bad and the company was hurting ,then everyone from the CEO down would have to sacrifice.
But it never works that way, I remember a few years ago an airline asked and got concessions from its unions, and about a week later the CEO awarded himself a nice fat BONUS!!
Goes to show you there are no MORALS left in this world. | |
| | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| Re: previous contracts the union took less money said by datguy8 :
in return for more benefits.
THats what people dont realize.. Unions accepted less pay increases for more benefits, so essentially by agreeing to "pay" for those benefits now would amount to a wage cut.
Other unions who pay for benefits also make a higher hourly wage (i.e. contructions unions, electrical unions) they make a lot more per hour but then have money taken out for benefits.
VZ is a profitable corporation- they are not bleeding millions like the car companies. And the higher ups have certainly rewarded themselves greatly.
If things were bad and the company was hurting ,then everyone from the CEO down would have to sacrifice.
But it never works that way, I remember a few years ago an airline asked and got concessions from its unions, and about a week later the CEO awarded himself a nice fat BONUS!!
Goes to show you there are no MORALS left in this world.
In some small business health insurance groups, premiums rose in the 15% area. I am sure the large group area is similar. So, that is a 15% increase in TOTAL comp. Mathematically, that is much better then getting a few percent bump in take home pay. When good benefits enrollment companies do the core enrollments, the programs will break down all comp, and health insurance paid by the employer is part of it. When companies are asked if they would like that as part of the program, they usually say yes.
Family coverage could cost 15k per year, give or take, of course YMMV depending on what is covered, etc. | |
| | | rob316
join:2005-10-17
Carteret, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: What I can not understand We said well said, it's time to take America back people. When Budweiser is being sold to a European company, Budweiser and American Institution now EUROPEAN. Americans have lost their pride with their jobs and themselves. Proud to be an American slogan is fading fast people stop this before it's to late. | |
| | | 
Pale_Rider
join:2004-10-18
Richmond Hill, NY
| Re: What I can not understand said by rob316 : When Budweiser is being sold to a European company, Budweiser an American Institution now EUROPEAN. I don't blame InBev for making the offer to buy AB, I blame AB for selling to InBev. | |
| | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
2 edits | said by qworster :What I can not understand is how so many of you are SO pro big corporations! PEOPLE NEED JOBS! Why are so many of you SO anti people? Right now, the single biggest problem facing our country is the lack of well paying jobs. For christ sakes, the USA is fast turning into a serf like third world country where 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth! Can't happen, you say? Well look around- IT IS HAPPENING!!!!Yet, when people who have literally given their LIFE to a company like Verizon (which made RECORD PROFITS last year by the way)-and now find Verizon responding by trying to screw them say NO!, you chastize them and support Verizon! Let me clue you into somethng-today it's THEM, but tomorrow it could well be YOU that finds yourself on the receiving end of a pink slip! And don't give me the CRAP that WE are the stockholders of these companies! I haven't been able to afford stock for YEARS-I'm literally living paycheck to paycheck trying to support my family. Am I better off now then ten years ago? HELL NO!!!!. I'm MUCH worse off now...and so are the majority of Americans! Things are so bad that even some BILLIONAIRES have seen the light are are becoming alarmed at how bad things are becoming in our country (Warren Buffett, T Bone Pickens and yes even Bill Gates). How come YOU can't see the forest for the trees? Are you SO gullible that you buy the corporate BULL$HIT hook line and sinker? Are you so afraid that you will do and say ANYTHING that they want you to? If so, SHAME ON YOU!. It's time to stop thinking about just yourself and start thinking about your fellow man and citizen-lest you find that some day YOU'RE on the receiving end of a stick up your A$$-and there's no one left to care about YOU! You say people need jobs, but without corporations, who would employ the people?
edit: As far as Warren Buffett, he has a political agenda, as does T BOONE (not Bone) Pickens. | |
| | 
hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| "Am I better off now then ten years ago? HELL NO!!!!. I'm MUCH worse off now...and so are the majority of Americans!"
You are a total and utter loser then.
If you have not developed your skill set and thus your earning potential in 10 years it no ones fault but your own.
My income has increased 250% in the same period.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
| |
| | | qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
4 edits | Re: What I can not understand said by hobgoblin :"Am I better off now then ten years ago? HELL NO!!!!. I'm MUCH worse off now...and so are the majority of Americans!" You are a total and utter loser then. If you have not developed your skill set and thus your earning potential in 10 years it no ones fault but your own. My income has increased 250% in the same period. Hob Your comment is not only rude but without merit. Due to de-regulation, many industries have CUT pay over the last ten years. Among those who likely make the same or LESS then they did ten years ago include such 'un technical' jobs an engineers, boat captains, programmers, doctors, college professors and airline pilots and mechanics!
In my profession (radio engineering), ten years ago if you worked for a major radio station in a top ten city, you were likely Chief Engineer over a staff of 3-7 people, had 1-2 stations under your purview, and had a salary of over $100K. Today you are lucky to get that salary, have less then half the help and you also overlook both Engineering and IT (which didn't exist 10 years ago) at a cluster of 3-8 stations-with a maintenance and parts budget about that when you only had two stations and no IT to deal with!
Right now in Los Angeles, I know of six highly experienced radio engineers that are out of work. Most were laid off by big companies like Clear Channel, ABC and CBS. Ten years ago, there was a SHORTAGE of qualified engineers here!
Simple supply and demand is at work here: The supply goes up and the price goes down. I heard that one of these guys just took an assistant's position at a four station cluster. Pay: 42 thousand dollars a year. When you're unemployed with a family and mortgage and are desparate, you'll take anything!
Ten years ago, the average radio engineer had an age of 45. Today the average age is 55. What does this mean? It means that in the last 10 years, VERY FEW PEOPLE have chosen radio engineering as a career. Good radio engineers are literally dying off-yet the salaries are still dropping.
Skill sets??? In the past ten years, I have had to learn all about computer hardware and software, administering servers and email, IP networks, VOIP, Installing, programming and maintaining digital business PBX systems (including voice mail), HD radio, installing and aiming satellite dishes (and installing multiple receivers), streaming, directional AM antennas (because stations won't hire consultants to do this specialized work any more), surface mount soldering & repairing surface mount circuit boards, podcasting and web publishing. I have become an expert on the FCC rules and regulations that pertain to radio and TV (because most stations are too cheap to have FCC attorneys any more). All of this I learned on my own time and AT MY OWN EXPENSE!
I also have to provide my own tools and test equipment-including spectrum and network analyzers that cost many, many thousands of dollars.
This year, the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) convention was held in Las Vegas (as always). The major group broadcasters made their engineers all stay home. Only those who paid their own way and also took vacation time were there. This is one of the major networking and educational events that engineers have.
This weekend I heard that as a result of Clear Channel going private last week, expenses will be cut by 20% before the end of the year. This means that HUNDREDS of hard working CC employees will lose their jobs at Christmas time.
HOW DARE you call these victims of clueless bean counters and bad management losers?
The fact that you happen to be in an extreme minority, doesn't give you any rights to gloat about it or call others that feel the pain of our crappy economy losers!
TOMORROW, you could lose your job and be in the same boat as many I speak of here (fortunately, I have been able to maintain modest raises because I work for myself).
The difference between the two of us is should that happen to you, I will have empathy for your predicament-which is something you obviously will never have for anyone else! | |
| EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | Great! Good to see that people are coming to an agreement, hopefully both sides will reach an accord that satisfies all sides for a great enough extent, so the company can get back to work. | |
| Isaka
join:2007-05-12
Lewisville, TX
·Verizon FIOS
| unions The problem with unions is that our pay raises are public and most non unions are done 1 on 1 in an office. Now if you walked in for your yearly review and your boss says, "well we are doing great as a company but I don't think I will give you a raise", I bet everyone here would be pretty ticked off.
VZ union employee's represent a middle class working man. We might make more than some but certainly not more than most. Union companies also have long term employee's, something that is very vaulable in a business like this. It certainly wouldn't be uncommon for a tech to come to your house who has worked for verizon 20+ years. Now if you don't mind some contractor pulling up in thier personal pickup with a ladder hanging out the back and someone from india doing your tech support, then so be it. I will take a american union worker plz... | |
| | BlueStrk
join:2000-11-19
Easton, PA
·ProLog
| Re: unions The problem with unions is that our pay raises are public and most non unions are done 1 on 1 in an office. Now if you walked in for your yearly review and your boss says, "well we are doing great as a company but I don't think I will give you a raise", I bet everyone here would be pretty ticked off.
Buddy, I work for Verizon. I am a second level (6G) manager. What you described has happened to most of us for the last two or three years.
If the union wants to increase its membership - How about unionizing first and second levels at VZ? | |
| | | Claybraker
join:2002-04-13
none
| Re: unions said by BlueStrk :If the union wants to increase its membership - How about unionizing first and second levels at VZ? Not sure what's happening in VZ land, but down here in former BellSouth territory, our first and second levels have been getting screwed royally by T. They're more concerned about our upcoming contract than many of us in Craft are.
Something outsiders don't understand, lower management gets whatever Craft gets from the contract. Next year when it's our turn, if I get screwed, my boss gets screwed also.
He's already been anally raped a few times since the merger, but at least the company has used lubricant. If the contract goes the wrong way, they won't be required to use lubricant anymore. | |
| ecco12
join:2003-01-20
Brooklyn, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| verizon  This evening at around 8:30 PM our bargaining team was summoned back to the bargaining table in Washington, D.C. I was on a president\'s coference call late tonight with our international president Larry Cohen, District 1 V.P. Chris Shelton, and the bargaining team. They reported that \"substantial progress\" in various areas was achieved. Issues of our health care for both active employees and retirees was addressed.
They reported \"substansial\" wage increases as well as pension band increases. Significant movement on the Verizon Business front were accomplished as well. Therefore, our leadership has made the decision to \"stop the clock,\" effectively meaning that we are covered under the existing contract as talks continue.
They said that mobilization drives, especially in the last few days really made a difference at bargaining.
I want to thank all of our members for their support and solidarity and remember to be prepared to strike at anytime and to continue your mobilization awareness in case things fall apart. But for right now, all members are expected to return to work on their next scheduled tour. Keep in touch with this tape for further updated information. Continue to wear red everyday, work safely, and remember IN UNITY THERE IS STRENGTH.
Thats for those who said we would give up our retirees and also without the field tech there wouldn't be no wireless because we are the one's who install and maintaine the t-1's and mux's that run off of them. If you don't know what we go thru you should shut the f@#*k up!!! | |
| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| corporate goals, union collusion goal: decrease wage expenditures
solution: find ways to have a constant turnover of union employees so that wage, pension & other benefits won't cost too much. give workers a 10-15 year career instead of 30+ years and get rid of them & train new ones. All major cities now do this routinely to unburden themselves from crushing debt and avoid levying taxes against the wealthiest amongst us. Don't think for a minute these tactics aren't used amongst the Verizon rank & file. Maybe not the old guys nearing retirement, but the younger workers with about 12 years in... guess what buddy?-- some of you will be lost in the trenches (read between the job security fine print).. jobs are not what they used to be.. work yourself to death, and your still poor (not middle class anymore).
VZ workers have been fortunate that this isn't worse than it seems (yet).. meaning that Verizon is doing well in wireless & mediocre (currently) at FIOS... but if the economy or more to the point, Verizon begins to do poorly in either/both wireless or FIOS, expect the broken promises similar to the auto industry in an effort to slash costs--contract or no. The contract is almost besides the point, it's was Verizon does.. not what's on the dotted line anymore. | |
|
Mylife
@bellsouth.net | Just take it easy Remember the more you make the more you spend and that makes the world go round. It keeps other people and companies working. It’s not the dollar amount that matters it’s about being in the middle of the road. Go union | |
| | viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: Just take it easy said by Mylife :
Remember the more you make the more you spend and that makes the world go round. It keeps other people and companies working. It’s not the dollar amount that matters it’s about being in the middle of the road. Go union
You don't get it. That's only good when it's the rich folks who collude to get more money/power. When regular folks do it, the idiots who buy into 'trickle down economics' bash the Union. | |
|
Michael Johnson
@verizon.net
| Your Money, Your Communities, Your Country, Your Choice I think we should look at this differently. This is not Verizons money. This is your money, you the American citizen, you who lives in Brooklyn, or Trenton, or Hartford, or Providence. You on average, pay this particular entity $100 or so to provide you with your Phone, TV, and Internet service. So you pay $1,200 a year for this. Think of your taxes, say you pay $200 a month, $2,400 a year, with this money you pay your mayor, $150,000 your police chief $125,000, your fire chief $125,000, your school superintendent,$125,000 etc, you pay your teachers, your firefighters, your police, your neighbors, $65,000 a year. Your communications company that you pay $100 a month or $1,200 a year to. You pay your Communications president not $150,000 like you pay your mayor, you pay him or her $6,000,000 a year, you pay your Communications Controller not the $125,000 you pay your City Controller, you pay him or her, $4,000,000 a year, and then you pay your communications workers, your neighbors, $65,000 a year. Comcast which some of you pay $100 a month pays it's employees, your neighbors, $45,000 a year. That's $20,000 less a year going to your neighbors that would be going into your communities, your schools, your businesses etc, but you allow Comcast to give it to your communication president $12,000,000 a year. So, the question is do you want to pay your neighbors $20,000 more a year that goes into your communities, and my community, or do we want to pay our communications president and controllers a gigantic amount of money that they take directly out of our neighborhoods, our schools, and our communities, and take it to their country clubs, and their 6 vacation homes. You and I pay this money, you and I, it is not Ivan Seidenberg's money, it is not Dennis Streigel's money. It is your money and it is my money, I say we pay our neighbors the $20,000 extra per year, our cities, towns, and neighborhoods need it. Ivan Seidenberg and Dennis Striegel will probably be ok, they may have to get rid of one of their vacation homes in Turks @ Cacos. Don't worry though they'll still have their homes in the Hamptons! Just another way to look at it! | |
| |
hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs: | Re: Your Money, Your Communities, Your Country, Your Choice "Think of your taxes, say you pay $200 a month,"
If I lived in a one bedroom trailer my taxes may be 200 a month.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
| |
| estover
join:2004-03-16
Valencia, PA
clubs:
| hmmm I think unions are sucking the life out of the country.
I worked for one for a while. I was pretty much forced into it. I started about 4 months before they forced a strike. I was young and dumb, looking back I never made the money back that I lost during the strike and the company went under, and I was with out a job. So were a lot of other people that could not afford to loose there jobs. I keep in touch with a couple of them over a beer to two. A number of them lost there houses, cars, had to pull there kids out of college because they couldn't afford to pay there kids way anymore. Luckily I was able to find another job in the same field a month or so later in another union shop. I had no plans to stay long enough to be forced into the union, I just needed a job. The crap I heard from the "workers" there made me sick. Shit like: "It all pays the same, If I work harder we won't get any over time. Fuck the owners, they have the money." Union workers suck. My life long friend, just left his union in heavy construction. The money the union was being paid for his work made him sick. He has started his own company and is booked for the next few months making 4 times the money he was making in the union.
My school district is planning on striking before the new school year. If they do it will cost me about 650 a week for daycare for my kids, and I am sure a tax increase to pay for there raise. Just who is going to pay for that? Thats right my clients. My prices will have to go up so that I can afford to allow my kids teachers to force the school to pay them $40 more a week. PLEASE tell me how that is fair!! Just who do they think they are to fuck me like this. Where is my ability to strike against the teachers striking? What recorse do I have against this. NONE! FUCK unions, Fuck union workers.
If you don't like the job or feel you are underpaid, Go find another fucking job!!!! Start your own company, have a kid and go on well-fair. Just don't make me pay for it!!! Wait the last one I will have to pay for, so scratch that one. | |
| |
Robb support
@comcast.net
| Big Companies are waking-up to reality!! Big companies noticed that their own employees can be their customers.....Employees go broke / Company goes broke....too bad so sad. then, take a look from the REPUBLICAN side.....The company goes broke / the corrupt administration/government covers their ass/ets....heh!!
Remember folks....ya kill off the middle class...who are you going to feed of off.....someone has to PAY THE TAXES!!
.....someone has to PAY FOR THE IRAQ CONTRACTORS @#$% I mean the WAR...heh | |
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Verizon Union Workers Not Striking Yet
Bye Bye Verizon Fios Customers