Verizon, Unions Reach Tentative Deal Though Many Members Don't Like New Arrangement Tipped by PX Eliezer 
After more than a year of negotiations that included the strike last summer of 45,000 workers, Verizon and the Communications Workers of America have reached a tentative agreement on a new contract. “Verizon workers will keep their standard of living and the benefits and working conditions we've fought for over the years," says the CWA. What I'm hearing from union workers isn't quite so enthusiastic; workers complain there's a significant loss of retirement and other benefits in the new agreement and it may be voted down. It remains unclear if union workers fully realize the scope of Verizon's plans to kill off wireline DSL entirely to focus on non-unionized wireless, something that's going to dramatically kill off membership very soon.
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 | | Retirement It's time for more people to start paying into their own retirement. Don't wanna pay in, then keep working all your life. It's not the company's job to make sure you keep having income after you leave and retire.
And as far as killing off the wireline side of the company, will still take years to happen, but should have happened a LONG time ago. Spin VZ's assets off on its own and change the name, allow the CellCo company to retain the VZ brand and be done with it. | |
|  | Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
2 edits | Re: Retirement Wow, youre back with your all-mighty wisdom, AGAIN. If you were at a job that had a pension, you wouldnt have such ridiculous opinions. When youre coming out of college, and you weigh your options, the benefits are analyzed. If a company offers a pension, and vacation, and sicktime, and a good wage, you GO FOR THAT JOB.
Just because you dont have something, doesnt mean nobody else should. I thought you retired this screen name?
And by the way, it will really ruffle your feathers to know that VZ Union employees not only get a pension, but have a 401K as well. Yea, maybe you shouldve filled out a NYNEX, Bell Atlantic, GTE, or Verizon application years ago.
I'll never understand why people are so concerned with dragging down everyone else instead of raising themselves up, its really sad. | |
| | |  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
 ·row44
·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Retirement said by ITALIAN926:Wow, youre back with your all-mighty wisdom, AGAIN. If you were at a job that had a pension, you wouldnt have such ridiculous opinions. When youre coming out of college, and you weigh your options, the benefits are analyzed. If a company offers a pension, and vacation, and sicktime, and a good wage, you GO FOR THAT JOB.
Just because you dont have something, doesnt mean nobody else should. I thought you retired this screen name?
And by the way, it will really ruffle your feathers to know that VZ Union employees not only get a pension, but have a 401K as well. Yea, maybe you shouldve filled out a NYNEX, Bell Atlantic, GTE, or Verizon application years ago.
I'll never understand why people are so concerned with dragging down everyone else instead of raising themselves up, its really sad.
All I could find was 2007 data.
80% government workers get pensions
21% private workers get pensions
Pensions are rare in the private industry as they are not sustainable. A company cannot afford to have pensions unless they are a monopoly on something we all need so they can keep increasing their prices.
Capitalism prevents pensions from working as a new company can come along and under cut the prices of a company that have 20,000 people retired on their pensions plan.
The private sector pensions will not last. The landline phone business will be over in the next 10 years, so anyone not retired by then and those still on retirement before then will lose their pensions. They are stupid if they actually think they will get one.
How can you expect a company to afford to pay for workers who no longer work for them? Workers who make them no money at all?
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| | | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Retirement You dont LOSE pensions working for a company that makes 10 BILLION dollars a year in profit.
Even if the union employees "lost" their current pensions, as you constantly seem to hope for, they are NOT LOST, they are FROZEN. Dont you think theres some kind of laws to protect workers in that situation?.
I work for a company 30 years, expecting a pension to retire, then the company says " nah we changed our minds, you have nothing" Wake up bud. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Retirement you do! Look at GM. They paid ALL of those people's retirment for YEARS and still do only to go bankrupt with no money. the USPS is the same- a public/private company yet going bankrput thanks to the retirement BS. these people should be REQUIRED to pay into their retirement and save just like everyone else. Just because you're union does NOT give you the right to demand this. They should strike again and VZ should LOCK them ALL OUT. VZ needs to attend BCI's Class of Union Mgt. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: Retirement I think I have finally reached the point of using my IGNORE button again, as this person has absolutly nothing constructive to contribute, but anti-employee, anti-consumer crap! | |
| | | | | | axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | Having the company pay into a retirement fund is part of an employment contract that was made when the workers were hired. Surely you believe that contracts are legally binding? | |
| | | | | | |  MaggsLife is awesomePremium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
 ·RCN CABLE
| Re: Retirement Health and welfare benefits can be cut via bankruptcy. They can elect to put their pension funds into a PBGC receivership and get rid of the obligations all together.
Pensions were a tool used by Unions and Management to achieve certain objectives in the past, such as the continuation of production in the case of the car companies. Essentially both parties knew these obligations would come due and they would in the end be unsustainable, they did not care at the time. Most of the people who ended up negotiating those benefits such as Ron Gettlefinger, are long retired.
If they push the cost onto the PBGC, the pension beneficiaries get cents on a dollar. The lack of planning on the part of beneficiaries is their own problem, do not rely on government or private enterprise to care for your well-being long after you've completed service in industry for them. You are ultimately responsible for your own self care.
I have cases of employees who go without health insurance due to cost, and get hit by a truck due to their own negligence, riding a bike the wrong way on a two way street in violation of traffic laws, and not wearing a helmet yet they expect the state or someone else to pick up the tab.
If hospitals were smart, they would execute wage garnishments for these type of people, since their gross negligence led to the accident in the first place, and if they failed to pay they should throw them in prison, since they are essentially stealing services from hospitals. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | |  woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | the USPS is only bankrupt because the Repubicants passed a bill requiring them to fully fund their pensions which no one else has to do.What is with all the demonizing us workers.
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BlooMe | |
| | | | | | |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: Retirement said by woody7:the USPS is only bankrupt because the Repubicants passed a bill requiring them to fully fund their pensions which no one else has to do.What is with all the demonizing us workers. Yawn... if this was such a bad thing, why didn't you people repeal this law when you had full control of things from 2009 to 2011.
It is your fault for having the opportunity to solve this problem and choosing to do nothing to fix it.
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| | | | | | | | CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Retirement I am not really sure who 'you people' are but your statement is utterly ridiculous. Using this logic, the screwed up country is YOUR fault because you didn't get McCain in there when you had the chance.
Fixing the situation with the Post Office is in everyones best interest... not some 'you people'.
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If Romeny hates the 47% so much, why is he always raising the percentage?? | |
| | | | | | | | | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: Retirement thank you.
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BlooMe | |
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| | | | | That assumes that prior Verizon management(Baby Bell side and GTE side) made no future plans when they were a monopoly. I would be curious to see how much they currently have for assets in their pension plan. | |
| | | | bemis
join:2008-07-18
Reading, MA Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon FiOS
| said by r81984:How can you expect a company to afford to pay for workers who no longer work for them? Workers who make them no money at all?
Let me just say that I am with you--I am against continued pensions now that it's plainly clear they are an unsustainable future nightmare for employers.
But the thing is that these companies did promise pensions to these workers and it would not be right to take them away. I think however that the unions need to accept this situation and work out some sort of a deal.
Any active employee with over 5 years of service keeps their arrangement. Active employee with less than 5 years gets a lump sum put into a 401K or other retirement account. Those same under-5 employees and new employees get an employer provided contribution either as a base contribution or a match.
For reference my employer will put 2% as long as a "match" if I put in 6%...
My health case "option" (is it really an option if your choice is that or nothing?) is a high deductible plan. In essence what I have is a catastrophic-coverage plan because I am responsible for 100% of the first $2,000 of my health costs per year, then 20% of them up to a max yearly out of pocket of $10,000.
My job required a technical college degree (electronics). I receive no bonus. My salary would be considered at the very low end of average given the number of years of experience I have.
So it seems like Verizon union workers probably have quite a lot of things to "give up" before they are down to what I believe is a relatively common private sector job. | |
| | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·row44
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
4 edits | Re: Retirement said by bemis:said by r81984:How can you expect a company to afford to pay for workers who no longer work for them? Workers who make them no money at all?
Let me just say that I am with you--I am against continued pensions now that it's plainly clear they are an unsustainable future nightmare for employers. But the thing is that these companies did promise pensions to these workers and it would not be right to take them away. I think however that the unions need to accept this situation and work out some sort of a deal. Any active employee with over 5 years of service keeps their arrangement. Active employee with less than 5 years gets a lump sum put into a 401K or other retirement account. Those same under-5 employees and new employees get an employer provided contribution either as a base contribution or a match. For reference my employer will put 2% as long as a "match" if I put in 6%... My health case "option" (is it really an option if your choice is that or nothing?) is a high deductible plan. In essence what I have is a catastrophic-coverage plan because I am responsible for 100% of the first $2,000 of my health costs per year, then 20% of them up to a max yearly out of pocket of $10,000. My job required a technical college degree (electronics). I receive no bonus. My salary would be considered at the very low end of average given the number of years of experience I have. So it seems like Verizon union workers probably have quite a lot of things to "give up" before they are down to what I believe is a relatively common private sector job. My company gives everyone 3% into their 401K no matter what then they match up to 6%.
So I put in 6% and my company puts in 9%.
That is for all workers from janitor to CEO.
The only bad thing about a 401K is the management fees which should be illegal. Wallstreet is getting rich off all our retirement saving even if they lose all our money.
My company has one unmanaged s&p matching fund that has like .5% management fee. All the other funds have like 2 to 3% management fees.
The government needs to outlaw management fees for your 401K. I understand there is costs invovled, but 401k management fees should be a flat fee per year and not a %. The flat fee should be only a few dollars a year and the fee should be 0 if you lose money in your fund.
It is a joke that wallstreet gets to steal from our retirement plans. They basically should only be breaking even from 401K plans in management costs and costs should be forced to be low so they cant try to use 401K plans fees to pay for their entire company.
Oddly enough the same stock companies that benefits greatly from our 401K plan fees also rate your employers stock as buy or sell. Huge conflict of interest.
401K stock management companies should 100% independent from any other stock company.
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| | | | | (I'm not trying to stir up the pot...just an observation) 
Another point that should be added against pension failure is:
-When the government (state or federal) borrows against the pension funds.
-When the borrowed pension funds are not replaced.
-When pensions are invested in risk.
What good are pensions when the very controller is, well, stealing from the workers?
Pensions do work but not with the scale of inflation, the failed investments let alone no checksums or regulation (SEC failed with all the previous scandals...can we even trust investment bodies?) , inclusion of OT, and don't forget, longevity.
*My father has a pension, he's over 80 and took early out when 64. My Bro-n-law has a pension (IBM) and he's 65 (he was given early out at 59...). Friend's father was 55 when he left Verizon, plus was vet. His wife worked at Government installation and her pension, with his, is more than they made together when working.
I'm just against those collecting pensions*, plus SS plus taking jobs to afford their fishing boat, that vacation home and other hobbies (not cost of living...). 
(Let's say a NJ state director moves from one department to another. When he retired, he was not only eligible for pension (based on last 3 years salary averaged--now updated to 5 years) but also of the previous department pension work (double pensions).
Or how pensions can be based on last 3 years of salary, but include...get this...overtime).
Say a law officer works last three years at $62K, $65K, and $67K. Averaged @ $64.6K, a pension on 80% of worked salary should be $52K/annually + medical. Now, include OT in those three years (say $30K annually), the 3yr average is now $94.6K ...making the 80% rule $76K !!! The pension is MORE than the salary was.
This example shows the increased salary with based OT. That has to stop, right?
PS. I know when I retire, SS will be negative... WTF! Yet annually that SS letter shows how much I am to collect at age 65... lol...
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| | | | axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | I predict the land-line internet business will be around forever, though. | |
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| | | | Because that's what America is now. Enjoy the decline as the rich get richer!
We all must sacrifice for them. It's so hard being rich these days.
Did you ever read in your history book about the roaring 20's? We're going to soon take a trip back, and live it for ourselves. | |
| | | |  DataDocMy avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC | Re: Retirement The rich don't put their money in a bin, like Scrooge McDuck. It gets spent or invested.
Wise up. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Retirement Yes, it gets spent on yachts and vacation homes while the people who actually do the work continue to lose more and more. | |
| | | | | | DataDocMy avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC | Re: Retirement And someone built those didn't they? Sounds like job creation to me. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Retirement Of course, that's what illegal immigrants are for! | |
| | | | | | | | | not everyone needs a boat but everyone needs a bar of soap. so that yacht place employs 20 people while the soap company employs 200 people. thats job creation
you described trickle down,
thanks for the peanuts master | |
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| | | |  Oh_NoTrogglus normalus
join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL | said by DataDoc:The rich don't put their money in a bin, like Scrooge McDuck. It gets spent or invested.
Wise up.
You are completely wrong.
It does not get spent nor does it get invested.
They put their money into 2nd hand stocks and trade them to get the lower capital gains tax. It is just laundering.
Laundering money in stocks is an instant 22% return on your money by bypassing the taxes.
Only buying stock from an IPO is investing. Trading stocks do NOT bring any dollars to the company. 99% of stock traders are not investors. | |
| | | | | | DataDocMy avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC Reviews:
·Suddenlink
| Re: Retirement I suppose commissions don't get spent either. And no rent paid on company offices.
You fail to acknowledge that money that changes hands always adds to the economy in some way. You just don't like the method.
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| | | | | | axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | I thought the only way you could buy stocks without the income taxed beforehand was IRA/401k, and only up to a certain limit? | |
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| | | | CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1 | Yes, most of it gets invested... in offshore accounts waiting for a 'tax holiday' where it doesn't do anyone any good. | |
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|  RobIn Deo speramus.Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
kudos:3 | said by hottboiinnc:It's time for more people to start paying into their own retirement. Don't wanna pay in, then keep working all your life. It's not the company's job to make sure you keep having income after you leave and retire.
And people would have no problem paying into their own retirement if they would receive raises and other adjustments to cost of living on a regular basis, especially when these companies are bringing in billions of dollars.
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| | | | | Re: Retirement Regardless it is NOT the company's problem to pay into it. I worked for a multi-billion dollar toy company. They NEVER paid into retirement and do NOT pay into retirement for ANY employee. I was expected to pay into it and did without bitching. except that's not the way people like it. They want paid, plus keep getting paid WELL AFTER THEY LEAVE. It's time for them to grow up and learn to take responsiblity for living on their own. | |
| | | | | | Re: Retirement There's only one problem. That means they have to work until they die.
Of course, the company doesn't want old people working for them either.
I guess they'll just have to live on Social Security. Oh wait, they're going after that too.
The shills seem to just hate old people, or people in general. | |
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| |  ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | said by Rob:said by hottboiinnc:It's time for more people to start paying into their own retirement. Don't wanna pay in, then keep working all your life. It's not the company's job to make sure you keep having income after you leave and retire.
And people would have no problem paying into their own retirement if they would receive raises and other adjustments to cost of living on a regular basis, especially when these companies are bringing in billions of dollars. They are finally getting a taste of what most workers have been having to do for years!!! That should be happy that they have had ALL their benefits paid for that not only includes the employee but their entire family as well. How many companies dod you know of that will pay the full amount for benefits not only for the employee but the whole family? | |
| | | | RobIn Deo speramus.Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
kudos:3 | Re: Retirement Aren't you a union member? | |
| | | | | ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | Re: Retirement No, I am not.. And given the track record of some unions these days, I have no desire to be a union member any longer. They have become too big and corrupt. | |
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| | | | | Yeah, its excellent that the money they have been spending locally buying stuff from, maybe, your place of work ropeguru will now go to an insurance company. Awesome!!
I am sure it is a great win for you and you can finally sleep at night knowing they have lost that. | |
| | | | | ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | Re: Retirement The work that I do does not have customers like that. But I understand your point.
And to that point, the economy has tanked enough that I don't think that the CWA workers are going to make much of an impact on the over economy if they have to start paying some portion of their benefits.
So could try on that argument but it just doesn't hold water. | |
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| Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| said by hottboiinnc:... It's not the company's job to make sure you keep having income after you leave and retire.
...
I assume you feel this way about executives at said companies that get golden parachutes, stock options, use of the company jet for x years after retirement, memberships paid to country clubs and gyms, etc., all after retiring.
If not, perhaps you can explain why that group "deserves" to have all these retirement benefits but the lowly working person doesn't. | |
| | | gateguyPremium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD | Re: Retirement When this contract expires, have the union put those items into the next negotiations.
That's exactly what the executives you are talking about did.
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Time for a new message. | |
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| | | said by hottboiinnc:It's time for more people to start paying into their own retirement. Don't wanna pay in, then keep working all your life. It's not the company's job to make sure you keep having income after you leave and retire.
And as far as killing off the wireline side of the company, will still take years to happen, but should have happened a LONG time ago. Spin VZ's assets off on its own and change the name, allow the CellCo company to retain the VZ brand and be done with it.
"Spin VZ's assets off on its own and change the name, allow the CellCo company to retain the VZ brand and be done with it."
I will TOTALLY agree with that last part!!
As I wish would happen to ALL major conglomerates that control WAY to much stuff such as cable companies, power companies, gas companies, etc.............
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Old Tech What can the union really do? Landlines are going the way of the telegraph. At least they were wise enough to avoid going on strike and losing even more pay and benefits as a result.
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See 8 replies to this post | |
| | Ha! Jealousy, such a bitter pill to swallow... There, I've finally said it. Every time Karl posts a news clip regarding a union, the union haters come out of the woodwork to bash everything we stand for. But for the history of the labor union movement over the past 60+ years, people in this country would still be working in sweat shops, subject to abusive tendencies from management. Even industries who had previously sidestepped organizing activities, cable companies for example, are now becoming unionized (cablevision). Labor unions are not just about money, they are more importantly for protecting workers from the abusive, greedy hands of management, and ensuring safe working environments for its members.
PROUD CWA member, local 1122! | |
| Reviews:
 ·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| cross subsidy.. the fact is wireless and wireline cross subsidize each other..
and until recently.. wireless was pulling wireline's weight since the first days of FIOS.. no more, the price hikes took care of that in short order.. FIOS will be profitable in less than five years... that is if they can maintain a 25% market share in major metro areas (bringing the 15% upto 25% or higher). peace with the union depends upon these higher revenue streams being as rosy as that plus 40% of the wireless market. for accounting reasons, this is why they will probably NEVER spin either company off.. if regulators force the change, then it could easily happen but of their own volition? nope...
However, let's review the facts..
Verizon ONLY enjoys a 25% fios market share in it's most competitive market: NY Metro and in other areas it's 15% or less.
Verizon has an end game for the union.. that is.. no more union-- sure they'll make peace until that contract expires.. but once it does?!? adios' CWA... once it expires, there will be nothing to talk about.. the workers will be luck to get a pay freeze vs a pay and staff cut..
The price hikes will come back to bite both Verizon and AT&T later on.. there's only so far you an stretch a rubber band which is the affordability of wireless and wireline service before it snaps. However these are headwinds they have to worry about after the political season is well over.. | |
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1 edit | Re: cross subsidy.. I thought they reported about a 35 percent penetration rate. Am I wrong about that??
Edot:Oops, you meant NYC. Nevermind. | |
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1 edit | You said the same thing LAST contract. The next one is always the last. You sound like my Grandfather claiming next year is the year the Mets will win it all.
15% in the NYC Metro area? You are completely off your rocker my friend. | |
| | | | Fios is in the black already, has been for 2 years now. DC metro area is a 40% market share if not more, close to 1 million subs. | |
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1 edit | It's just really hard to feel sorry... The unions just never learn. The economy is in the tank; most families have suffered severe reductions in income if not losing it all together yet the unions expect a sweeter and sweeter deal every year. When there are THOUSANDS of people who will do YOUR JOB for 1/2 the pay you receive, it's just not a good time to be asking for more and more. You've had outrageous pay and benefits with work rules that mean no one EVER breaks a sweat for a gazillion years (that I and all the other consumers had to pay for) and you refuse to bend even 1 inch. You've priced yourselves out of the market. So sorry, into every life a little reality must fall.
Pointing and screaming "greedy corporation" really doesn't do it. Yes, the stock holders and corporate brass had their hand in my pocket... but so did the rank and file employees. For decades I've been paying through the nose so that you ALL could live large. Please don't expect me to throw a pity party. You never pittied me. | |
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