Verizon: Voice Over LTE, LTE-Only Phones in 2014 Verizon CFO Claims LTE Only Will Lower Consumer Costs "We will ultimately get to voice over LTE, probably end of this year, beginning of next year," Verizon CFO Fran Shammo stated yesterday at Deutsche Bank's Media, Internet, and Telecom conference. The company had planned to offer the improved voice quality services, but initial implementations of voice over LTE have been quite the battery hog. According to a Verizon transcript (pdf) of the event, Shammo notes that by late 2014 Verizon expects to be able to remove the CDMA chipset from phones, which he claims will result in lower costs and subsidies for customers (or, more likely, just lower costs for Verizon that aren't passed on to you). "So over the next two to three years I think we will start to see subsidies come down," stated Shammo.
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 clone
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN | Those Fancy CDMA Chipsets! The CDMA chipset is probably the least expensive chip in most CDMA phones, seeing as they've been around for literally decades now, not to mention that modern SoCs usually just includes CDMA support by default anyway, even when it's disabled on GSM/WCDMA only devices. Devices somehow becoming "affordable" because of VoLTE is some kind of pipe dream.
Estimates put the cost of the materials for the iPhone 5 at around $168 for a device that sells for $649. The carriers are really only subsidizing the manufacturer's cushy profit margins.
With Google selling Nexus 4's out the door at $349, something tells me they're going to be playing Wal-Mart here over the next few years in the mobile device department, forcing manufacturers to cut their margins to something a little more reasonable. | |
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 ·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Those Fancy CDMA Chipsets! said by clone:Estimates put the cost of the materials for the iPhone 5 at around $168 for a device that sells for $649. The carriers are really only subsidizing the manufacturer's cushy profit margins. You do pay extra for that little Apple logo, but that $168 estimate isn't exactly realistic either.... there are also hardware R&D costs, software development costs, ongoing support costs, etc, etc.... | |
| | | clone
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN | Re: Those Fancy CDMA Chipsets! Still, selling them for $649, $749, and $849 for a device that has a bill of materials of, say $200 (32 and 64 GB of flash isn't that much more expensive than 16GB anymore) is still paying a LOT for the Apple logo. Once all the R&D and dev costs are sunk, it's still a lot of pure profit.
Not saying that profit is bad, but the industry has no one to blame but themselves for the subsidy situation they love to whine about, they created it.
In the end, though, CDMA chipsets are negligible in the cost, both of the hardware and R&D. | |
| | | | | Those cost you mention are immaterial to the overall cost of the phone. Overall they will add less than a quarter to the cost of each phone when it is said and done.
Before you even begin to reply do not forget that every single thing you mentioned also goes into more than just the phone, so it is cross departmentalized and the results are shared. In addition, every single one of those things are also tax write offs. Therefore at the end of the year they get to save tens or hundreds of millions on their taxes which in the end means the actual cost to the phone is closer to pennies if anything at all. | |
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·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Those Fancy CDMA Chipsets! There's a simple solution to this: Don't buy Apple products if it irks you so bad.
Personally I don't have a single Apple product in my household, but I'm not going to get all hot and bothered if other people insist on overpaying for them. Supply and demand my friend, if they weren't selling at the current price point they'd have incentive to charge less. | |
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decifal
join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·Verizon Broadban..
| soon And coming soon with voice over lte will be!!! "oh, we have to remove the unlimited voice off of the family share plan now"..
Wait and see, specially if its high def voice (which we are way behind other country's btw).. They will require a premium for it.. | |
| | Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Comcast
·T-Mobile US
| Re: soon said by decifal:And coming soon with voice over lte will be!!! "oh, we have to remove the unlimited voice off of the family share plan now"..
They will require a premium for it..
For Some reason I agree with you, I see the warning signs, Verizon, "OH LTE data requires a premium price so VoLTE using the same band requires a premium as well", They may be generous with the amount of minutes on a family plan say 8-10 k but you can say good bye to unlimited voice. | |
| | |  LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | Re: soon said by buddahbless:said by decifal:And coming soon with voice over lte will be!!! "oh, we have to remove the unlimited voice off of the family share plan now"..
They will require a premium for it..
For Some reason I agree with you, I see the warning signs, Verizon, "OH LTE data requires a premium price so VoLTE using the same band requires a premium as well", They may be generous with the amount of minutes on a family plan say 8-10 k but you can say good bye to unlimited voice. Or more likely, no separate charge for voice at all. VoLTE will just be some more bytes used from your allotted data plan.
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I will be perfectly happy if the budget cuts specified in the Budget Control Act go into effect. 3 cheers for the sequester. Take the money from the drunken federal spenders. | |
| | | | decifal
join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
| Re: soon said by Linklist:said by buddahbless:said by decifal:And coming soon with voice over lte will be!!! "oh, we have to remove the unlimited voice off of the family share plan now"..
They will require a premium for it..
For Some reason I agree with you, I see the warning signs, Verizon, "OH LTE data requires a premium price so VoLTE using the same band requires a premium as well", They may be generous with the amount of minutes on a family plan say 8-10 k but you can say good bye to unlimited voice. Or more likely, no separate charge for voice at all. VoLTE will just be some more bytes used from your allotted data plan. Oh god, considering the low caps, that would probably be the worst option.. Their share plans offer unlimited text, but quite a few phones don't even use the standard texting tech anymore, just data  clever bastards | |
| | | | | LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | Re: soon said by decifal:Oh god, considering the low caps, that would probably be the worst option.. Their share plans offer unlimited text, but quite a few phones don't even use the standard texting tech anymore, just data clever bastards
Voice is so little used anymore by smartphone users, the extra data consumed by voice calls will be relatively low volume usage. My younger relatives( under age 30 ) barely do any voice calls. I don't really expect VoLTE calls will take up much of a data cap.
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I will be perfectly happy if the budget cuts specified in the Budget Control Act go into effect. 3 cheers for the sequester. Take the money from the drunken federal spenders. | |
| | | | | | decifal
join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
| Re: soon said by Linklist:said by decifal:Oh god, considering the low caps, that would probably be the worst option.. Their share plans offer unlimited text, but quite a few phones don't even use the standard texting tech anymore, just data clever bastards
Voice is so little used anymore by smartphone users, the extra data consumed by voice calls will be relatively low volume usage. My younger relatives( under age 30 ) barely do any voice calls. I don't really expect VoLTE calls will take up much of a data cap. One of the few times I tried using skypes voice plan through a 3g wifi here I had drops and the data was consistent at .50mbps.. If that isn't enough to sustain a call through data, then you can bet your biscuit that VoLTE will eat up some data.. Otherwise they wouldn't count it off your data allowance....
No point in arguing about it though.. Time will tell.. I'm betting i'm right though | |
| | | | | | |  SeleniaI love DebianPremium
join:2006-09-22
Lanesboro, MA
kudos:2 | Re: soon said by decifal:said by Linklist:said by decifal:Oh god, considering the low caps, that would probably be the worst option.. Their share plans offer unlimited text, but quite a few phones don't even use the standard texting tech anymore, just data clever bastards
Voice is so little used anymore by smartphone users, the extra data consumed by voice calls will be relatively low volume usage. My younger relatives( under age 30 ) barely do any voice calls. I don't really expect VoLTE calls will take up much of a data cap. One of the few times I tried using skypes voice plan through a 3g wifi here I had drops and the data was consistent at .50mbps.. If that isn't enough to sustain a call through data, then you can bet your biscuit that VoLTE will eat up some data.. Otherwise they wouldn't count it off your data allowance.... No point in arguing about it though.. Time will tell.. I'm betting i'm right though Ignore all other factors just to sell your opinion. Good job. Paying for buckets of data instead of minutes would not be a tragedy. Here are the fact you ignored
1. Skype is a peer to peer Phone service. That in itself makes it much more bandwidth intensive than standard voice over IP. I use voice over IP both over 4g and wifi. I have wifi most of the time. Given that I use PCMU. This is the most bandwidth intensive codec, streaming around 8 KB/sec each direction, but sounds excellent, is resilient, and does not dig into my cap, using wifi when possible and routing over cell voice during free nights and weekends when also outside wifi. The speex codec I also tested is around 3 KB/sec
2. You should be ok on bandwidth, even on Skype. A poor voice connection is making you assume too much. Latency(delay), jitter(ping variances) , and packet loss are far more detrimental. So is a poor NAT traversal setup.
3. Maybe your 3g is throttled on some ports. mobile providers are notorious for that. I have experimented with torrenting with extra data on AT&T. Got great speed if everything was encrypted. VPN delivered over 1.5 MB/sec. If anything was unencrypted, the torrent would stall. Some providers do this to voice over IP and I suspect Verizon. I had a miserable experience on them with voice over IP but have been fine on AT&T. LTE could be different.
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A fool thinks they know everything.
A wise person knows enough to know they couldn't possibly know everything.
There are zealots for every OS, like every religion. They do not represent the majority of users for either. | |
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| | | Or charge a premium on the "more expensive" CDMA voice minutes (likely charge some premium on both)
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Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel. | |
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| | Good, cdma should die. Being a former Verizon customer LTE customer, this will be an improvement, running two radios constantly is too much of a battery killer.
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| | nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ | Re: Good, cdma should die. VOLTE coverage will be less than CDMA. | |
| | | | | Re: Good, cdma should die. Is great to see VZW push hard to make VoLTE happen but I'm betting they'll keep CDMA in parallel for many years, which means phones with both radios for a while. VoLTE will take years to mature. | |
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·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Good, cdma should die. They have already committed to keeping the CDMA network around until 2018 or 2019 if I recall correctly.
Hell, they kept AMPS running until 2008, even though it was only being used by a single digit percentage of their customer base, and a goodly number of those were integrated devices (i.e., OnStar) that weren't easily upgradable.
The latter bit is probably why CDMA will stick around for a few years past Verizon's desired sunset date.
To to the GP: Why would it have less coverage? They will build out LTE in their entire footprint, and with 700mhz it will have comparable (in theory better) building penetration as the 850mhz cellular licenses that run most of their CDMA network. | |
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| Re: Good, cdma should die. I've noticed this too, but I think it's a chipset/software issue more than anything else. When I look at the actual signal numbers when this happens they are the same, the LTE network might even be a few dBm higher. No reason it should drop back to CDMA in such an instance, yet it does.
Frankly it's a wonder they can make these two disparate technologies work together at all. People around here like to gripe about the roll out schedules/costs/caps/etc when it comes to cell phones, but if you really dive into the technological aspects it's really quite amazing how far we've come in such a short period of time. I got my start in IT when 14.4k modems were new and exciting, and now I'm carrying around a fractional T3 in my pocket for $30/mo. That's really beyond amazing, IMHO anyway. | |
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·Verizon Wireless..
| The LTE is weak were I am also. I am less than two miles from the cell site and fall back to 3g in the house all the time. The CDMA in my area is PCS at that! So were does the building penetration fall into this equation? But that is only on smartphones. My wirless data card is in LTE mode all the time and good signal to inside or outside. | |
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| | | | nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ Reviews:
 ·Callcentric
| CDMA requires less signal strength to work. VOLTE will not have the same coverage area at the same power etc.
Because of the technology VOLTE is more susceptible to noise and interference.
In urban areas most likely no issues but in the rural areas where Verizon towers can be used across valleys there most likely will be a noticeable difference. | |
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·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Good, cdma should die. Interference and noise are more of a problem in urban environments with the heavier density of base stations and mobiles.....
LTE has tricks up its sleeve to deal with marginal signal areas. Subchannels are broadcast with higher power to deal with marginal/border areas without interfering with neighboring base stations and their connected mobiles. Additionally, chipsets and software will only improve as time goes on. People made the same coverage complaints about the transition from AMPS to digital, but it turned out to be a non-issue. Nobody is advocating for a return to AMPS because of coverage issues, even though analog is arguably better in certain instances than digital.
Verizon is a telephone company. People around here may think that few people use voice anymore, but crappy voice service is instantly apparent to the average end user. Slow data not so much, remember that most people use their smartphones for dorky low data footprint games (Words with Friends doesn't require LTE speeds...), lightweight web browsing, and e-mail. Verizon isn't going to let the voice network go to hell as they transition people to VoLTE. | |
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| said by MovieLover76:Being a former Verizon customer LTE customer, this will be an improvement, running two radios constantly is too much of a battery killer.
Might want to read here... it's the Voice Over LTE that's the battery hog:
»Voice Over LTE is a Huge Battery Killer | |
| | |  jimkPremium
join:2006-04-15
Raleigh, NC
·RoadRunner Cable
·voip.ms
| Re: Good, cdma should die. My understanding is that the next generation LTE chipsets will greatly reduce power consumption and make VoLTE much more practical.
Clearly, however, VoLTE has been more of a challenge than originally planned. It has already been delayed at least once. | |
| | | | | | Re: Good, cdma should die. Oh I agree.. but to say that running two batteries is a battery killer when it's really just VoLTE flies in the face of the data that has already been put forth. | |
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| | | | | Newest qualcomm chips are unified. I had a thunderbolt which had 3 chips in it, and yes it was a nightmare....I dumped that phone like a bad habit, and then Verizon. | |
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| | gsm phone have cdma chips these days most t-mobile and at&t phones have cdma it's just disabled. i know because i have seen some of these phones flashed to cdma carriers such as cricket and pageplus. would be strange for verizon to remove it. | |
| | Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: gsm phone have cdma chips these days Its the manufacturers that charge for the fee to have access to both technologies. From a build perspective - its all the same. Think of the old CPU days when Intel built the 'Celeron' - it was effectively the same chip, with a feature disabled, and performed slower. As a result, they were able to charge more for the regular CPUs. Sales/Marketing 101.
The only real way that some savings would be had (by Verizon) are:
1. Shut down CDMA (less power consumption), only need to support 1 system.
2. Get rid of the subsidy model system. Its like an insurance policy, and a method of overinflating the cost of the device. | |
| | | | | Re: gsm phone have cdma chips these days You may want to read up on the Celeron chip. Though what you are trying to say is clear, your example is crap. | |
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nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ | Able to kill off legacy roaming agreements with Sprint Verizon switch to VOLTE only could kill off any remaining legacy roaming agreements Sprint or others have with them.
Also VOLTE may have less coverage than CDMA so even verizon may suffer a little even with their premier network. | |
| | Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
·T-Mobile US
| Re: Able to kill off legacy roaming agreements with Sprint said by nonymous:Verizon switch to VOLTE only could kill off any remaining legacy roaming agreements Sprint or others have with them.
Thats one of there major reasons for doing it ATT is doing it as well. Kill of the little guy roaming on your network and that limits there coverage, here's reason Sprint and Tmobile need to form there own roaming agreement when they both launch LTE and have handsets compatible for LTE data and volte roaming from one to the next. If the big boys wont let them play on there network the little guys need to work together. | |
| | | | Good maybe sprint build their own networks more than they have, and not riding on verizon network. | |
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 IowaCowboyWant to go back to IowaPremium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
·Comcast
·Verizon Broadban..
| Dead cell phone battery drama I was on the go yesterday and my iPhone battery died. I was near a shopping center and I picked up a cheap AT&T go phone that cost me about $25 for the phone and the airtime. I was nowhere near a charger and it was just cheaper to buy a cheap throwaway phone then to buy a battery booster. I bought the AT&T phone as that was the cheapest one they had at the Radio Shack I was at, otherwise I would have bought a Verizon phone.
iPhones are battery hogs, especially on Verizon with their CDMA/LTE network. Learned my lesson about not charging the iPhone every night.
If I would have had change on me, I would have just found a rapidly disappearing payphone. It was probably cheaper to buy the throwaway phone then to make a collect call from a payphone. I broke my cell phone in 2002 (when payphone use was still common) and I made a collect call home from a payphone and a 2 minute call ended up costing $15 on our home phone bill for a call that would have cost 50 cents with change.
I've heard of horror stories of people getting charged over $100 when they charge a payphone call on a credit card.
If Verizon goes VoLTE, there will be a new demand for payphones with all the dead cell phone batteries. Hopefully they'll put in payphones with the credit card readers on them and we can bill payphone calls to our cell phone bills.
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I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner. They are much better than broadcast TV.
I have not and will not cut the cord. | |
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·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Dead cell phone battery drama Maybe you should invest in a car charger and/or be a little more proactive about keeping your battery topped off. My Samsung is a battery hog, but I rarely let it drop below 50%, and I've never once had it die on me. Not plugging it in overnight is foolish, what reason is there _not_ to plug it in while you sleep? Hell, I always plugged my dumbphones in overnight, even the ones with a week or more of standby time. No reason not to.
Another point to consider: Li-ion batteries last longer if you don't subject them to deep discharge cycles on a regular basis.
Besides, battery chemistry is only going to get better as time goes on. There is also an ill-served market for phones where function is more important than form, personally I'd rather have a bigger phone with a huge ass battery than a tiny uber-slim phone. Not sure why there are so few phones that cater to this market, they'd be able to sell them without much issue.... | |
| | | IowaCowboyWant to go back to IowaPremium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Broadban..
| Re: Dead cell phone battery drama said by Crookshanks:Maybe you should invest in a car charger and/or be a little more proactive about keeping your battery topped off.
I have a car charger for my old iPhone. Problem is that my car is inoperable and I am taking the bus right now.
I wish I had the money to get the car fixed or get a new car but I was quoted $2000 by a dealership to get it repaired. I am going to look into getting it fixed with aftermarket parts. I bought a used car in Oct 2011 and it had numerous failures not too long after I bought it so I got screwed, dealer wants nothing to do with it so I am going to look into getting a legal opinion on the matter (and I do have the failure documented).
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I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner. They are much better than broadcast TV.
I have not and will not cut the cord. | |
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·Time Warner Cable
 ·Verizon FiOS
·voip.ms
| Right on... The problem is now as they get slimmer, they make the batteries also non-removable.
The first thing I did w/ Mrs TMO ST phone is get a 3500MaH Hyperion battery for $10, yes $10. Her mytouch can now go 2 days (she isn't as rigorous as you) without a charge, even w/ heavy usage. I can't understand why there is really only a few phones (Razr Maxx) that are designed to actually last, especially w/ LTE coverage not being as robust as UTMS/CDMA so it's going to sap battery.
BTW I got an iphone 5, and turned it back in after one week because it would die within 8 hours, and my old iphone 4s (CDMA) could go almost 30 hours without a recharge (Verizon). It seems that my area (north of Buffalo) hasn't gotten the full LTE upgrade yet. Yes I could have locked it to CDMA, but on principle I did this (my company tells me they will allow Android soon ). I don't think the 5 is any better, except for the slightly larger screen, but it looks like a toy compared to my buds Nexus 4. Holy crap I like that phone, too bad LG sealed it too.... | |
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·Frontier Communi..
| Re: Dead cell phone battery drama I bought an old Samsung Nexus for in December three reasons:
1) It has a user replaceable battery.
2) It's unlocked, designed to be flashed, and ridiculously easy to install Cyanogenmod on it.
3) It was free w/2 yr contract, and I had an upgrade on a different line so I didn't have to part with unlimited data.
Not as flashy as the current models, but it runs Cyanogenmod, is more than fast enough for what I demand of it (primarily e-mail, web browsing, wi-fi tethering, and various productivity apps), and has the user replaceable battery.
When I wear out the factory battery I'll probably get one of the big aftermarket ones. Or at the very least the Samsung extended battery. I got the Motorola extended battery for my Droid-X, which was 1900mAh vs. 1500mAh for the stock battery., Surprisingly enough that extra 400mAh bought me a lot more time than the 25% increase would imply. Makes me wonder if I didn't get a lemon with the factory battery, or perhaps got an overbuilt extended one. | |
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OwlSaverOwlSaverPremium
join:2005-01-30
Berwyn, PA | I would like a LTE FemtoCell Verizon's coverage in my house is not that great. We have one phone that is LTE now out of four. I would like Verizon to offer an LTE FemtoCell that works with VoLTE. | |
|  VanPremium
join:2009-07-08
New Orleans, LA | So, what does Verizon do that doesn't "lower costs"? I mean, they are just without doubt the most awesome company ever!
Little to no regulation? Lower costs
Rate hikes? Lower costs
Higher costs? Lower costs | |
|  EricthornIt only hurts when I laughPremium
join:2001-08-10
Paragould, AR | What he really meant to say was... LTE only is going to lower our costs while we shaft the consumer with a price increase and lower the caps.
Verizon and AT&T don't do anything to lower costs to consumers. It's amazing that everyone didn't bust out laughing when he suggest that.
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Ever try stuffing a melted marshmallow up a wildcat's ass? It can be done, but you have to like your job. - This Is The Way The World Ends by James Morrow - Join a DC club, it can't hurt you! | |
| BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH | Roaming They have a lot of build-out to do to cover roaming areas, like those on USCC that are still CDMA/1x before they do 100% LTE, even for a non-global device. | |
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