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Verizon's Dubious Math Skills
Trouble getting accurate info on data rates

Eyeless writer had taken notice of last year's story about Verizon's dubious math skills and decided to call Verizon Wireless 56 times to see if they're consistent about informing customers when it comes to pricing. Only two questions were asked of the wireless carrier:

•What is the data overage rate for the basic 10MB data plan for $29.99?

•What is the data roaming rate in Canada on the Core Choice 450 plan?

However, the website found that 93% of the Verizon Wireless phone support employees they spoke to quoted the wrong rates, and only one employee answered both questions correctly. The video they've made tells the tale:

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TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

Wow...

Gotta love the guy who makes you wait 7 minutes and gets back with a wrong answer.
rodrod5
join:2001-02-28
Houston, TX

rodrod5

Member

Re: Wow...

the vast majority of agents will probably not know the difference between a bit or a byte

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

1 recommendation

TigerLord

Re: Wow...

As a CSR for an ISP, they should, and enough to educate the clients that ask the difference between the two.
rodrod5
join:2001-02-28
Houston, TX

rodrod5

Member

Re: Wow...

from what my experience tells me

the ISP sees it very different....even more so today than in the past....for 8-10 an hour you will not get a ton

and we all need to remember that a huge amount of people on the internet only know if they can get their email jokes, check their "auctions", and go to their news thingy

those that can even find this forum are so far ahead of the masses it is unbelievable.....the ISP knows people like those on this forum exist......and they know theymake way more money off of everyone else....and they know that in the end a user on this forum will weigh the bandwidth/speed/support/cost and make a choice (though sometimes I even wonder about that)....the ISP stands to gain little (in their mind) from offering the users like most on this forum what they really want....when they know you will settle for the best of what the rest get....because you have to

in short in the mind of Verizon.....if you know enough to make the call and quiz the agents then you know enough to find and evaluate the information for yourself (even if it takes 5 calls).....and if you can't find it or you don't know what any of it means.....all the better.....that is the subscriber they prefer.......the "it works or it does not work" guy/gal......you techno geeks make them crazie

banditws6
Shrinking Time and Distance
Premium Member
join:2001-08-18
Frisco, TX

banditws6

Premium Member

Re: Wow...

Generally I agree that most front-line support reps aren't able to match wits with many of the regulars here, on a technology level. But this is a billing question. It relates to technology, yes, but at the root of it, it is a question of how much the customer is going to owe if they use the service a certain way. A support rep shouldn't have to know how telephony technology works to tell me that long distance calls cost 10 cents a minute...

vzw emp
@qwest.net

vzw emp to rodrod5

Anon

to rodrod5
As a former Verizon CSR, I can tell you that the average rep receives brief training on data plans but doesn't utilize it much since this service is not as popular among your average consumer. These questions are better handled by the business reps as they receive a much higher volume of calls related to data plans and are therefore more familiar with that type of plan.

That being said, all of the reps have this info readily available to them, all they have to do is pull it up on their intranet resource and read it. The problem is most reps (and customers) aren't patient enough to take the time to read it. Also, most customers don't trust what they are told by a rep who has to read the info to find the answer, they prefer someone who already knows it. In this situation most reps will simply transfer the call to a business rep.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru to TigerLord

MVM

to TigerLord
I would not call Verizon Wireless an ISP. Yes they may fit the technical definition of an ISP, but I would not expect them to give me the same level of technical support for internet related issues as what an ISP does.

But I also agree that they still should know the difference between a kilobit and a kilobyte. Much the same way that I would expect them to know the difference between .002 cents and .002 dollars.

TigerLord

join:2002-06-09
Canada

TigerLord

Re: Wow...

Internet Service Provider.. do they dot provide internet services?

AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium Member
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX

AmeritecTech to rodrod5

Premium Member

to rodrod5
said by rodrod5:

the vast majority of agents will probably not know the difference between a bit or a byte
Bit and byte wasn't the error most were making. Most did not understand the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents.

Jodokast96
Stupid people piss me off.
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
NJ

Jodokast96

Premium Member

Re: Wow...

said by AmeritecTech:

said by rodrod5:

the vast majority of agents will probably not know the difference between a bit or a byte
Bit and byte wasn't the error most were making. Most did not understand the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents.
Not to mention, isn't that the exact same amount from last year?

snipper_cr
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL

snipper_cr to AmeritecTech

Premium Member

to AmeritecTech
I agree. The difference between a byte and a bit to even a moderately computer savy person is obvious but Kb and kb tend to be more confusing.

I am, however, worried about the people would cannot differentiate between .002 dollars and .002 cents. .002 cents would allow a heck of a lot more data!

Indeed, my sides are a little sore from watching that video.

SLD
Premium Member
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

1 recommendation

SLD

Premium Member

Re: Wow...

said by snipper_cr:

I agree. The difference between a byte and a bit to even a moderately computer savy person is obvious but Kb and kb tend to be more confusing.
Seems you got confused yourself. Kb and kb are the same thing. KB and Kb would be different.

snipper_cr
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL

snipper_cr

Premium Member

Re: Wow...

Yes, sorry thats what I ment. K and k would imply that there are two units of kilo :-P
But yeah that is what I meant

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3 to AmeritecTech

Premium Member

to AmeritecTech
said by AmeritecTech:
said by rodrod5:

the vast majority of agents will probably not know the difference between a bit or a byte
Bit and byte wasn't the error most were making. Most did not understand the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents.
I'm betting they went through training that told them .002 dollars, but that just doesn't make as much sense to say as .002 cents, so if as the poster above says, they don't quote data rates often, they probably remember .002 and think cents.

Personally I think Verizon Wireless needs to fire their training staff and probably change the metrics in use, as well as adding in a few "secret shopper" calls.
Synbios
join:2002-05-18
Arlington, VA

Synbios to rodrod5

Member

to rodrod5
The major problem is (especially for the second question), they have a hard time distinguishing between cents and dollars.

0.002 dollars is stupid anyway, their readout on their computer should simply say .2 cents.

Yeah the other problem is bit vs. byte.

They need to learn the difference between dollar and cent, and bit and byte.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Wow...

said by Synbios:

The major problem is (especially for the second question), they have a hard time distinguishing between cents and dollars.

0.002 dollars is stupid anyway, their readout on their computer should simply say .2 cents.

Yeah the other problem is bit vs. byte.

They need to learn the difference between dollar and cent, and bit and byte.
Yeah, but to the average end user, .002 dollars sounds like a LOT less than .2 cents. I even had to pause and think about it for a second to figure out what exactly it was.

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium Member
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA

Hangmn to Synbios

Premium Member

to Synbios
said by Synbios:

The major problem is (especially for the second question), they have a hard time distinguishing between cents and dollars.

0.002 dollars is stupid anyway, their readout on their computer should simply say .2 cents.

Yeah the other problem is bit vs. byte.

They need to learn the difference between dollar and cent, and bit and byte.
In other words most get it COMPLETELY WRONG....
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

xenophon to TigerLord

Member

to TigerLord
Would like to see this with more basic cellphone service questions. Probably won't have as high of an error rate but still probably too high.

BryanOnComc
join:2007-06-22
Brandon, FL

BryanOnComc

Member

uneducated

This is great.. Great idea.

They sure need some qc.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

1 recommendation

88615298 (banned)

Member

Not shocking

Considering the crappiness of our educational system in the US I'm not shocked that people don't the difference between .002 dollars and .002 cents.

cableties
Premium Member
join:2005-01-27

cableties

Premium Member

Too funny but too true!

I'd like to do this for my friend that is mired in the DSL nightmare called Verizon DSL support in Hazleton, PA!!

They shut off her DSL. They said it was problem with her phone line. They said it was her modem. They said she never paid. They said she requested termination. They said its at their end. They said billing will resolve but closed now. They said but didn't fix it and its now going on two weeks.

Do you complain to PUC? FTC? FCC? What is one to do. She has no email. Her billing is debit from her account so that wasn't the issue. She never terminated her service (she's a freelancer!).

(I had to intervene as a relative works in another state for DSL support...but still...she is getting short end...)

BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Nite-Owl
join:2007-01-11

BabyBear

Member

The big question!?!

So the big question of the day is who was that employee who got both questions RIGHT and when did they get fired!?!?
rodrod5
join:2001-02-28
Houston, TX

1 edit

rodrod5

Member

Re: The big question!?!

well you see their call coaching scores came back and they failed to offer the subscriber the chance to purchase an upgrade in their services.....and they also were a bit soft spoken with their Verizon greeting....and they forgot to ask you to please hang on the phone and take a brief survey to let Verizon know how well you were able to improve their Verizon experience

and one of these 3 is a fireable offense....all 3 togather is insubordination

darbea
from the Dark Side
Premium Member
join:2007-07-15
Coatesville, PA

darbea

Premium Member

Re: The big question!?!

said by rodrod5:

well you see their call coaching scores came back and they failed to offer the subscriber the chance to purchase an upgrade in their services.....and they also were a bit soft spoken with their Verizon greeting....and they forgot to ask you to please hang on the phone and take a brief survey to let Verizon know how well you were able to improve their Verizon experience

and one of these 3 is a fireable offense....all 3 togather is insubordination
Thank-you!!!
Not only are you completely correct, but you hit the nail on the head.
The ludicrous measuring systems in place are beyond comprehension to anyone who doesn't work for VZ. The stress levels, absence rates, employee rollovers (thru promotion or retreat to former title, if allowed), are much higher than any other department.

For service reps hired "off the street", their chance of making it thru the first 6 months is much slimmer than an existing employee who upgraded to the title.

Funny thing is, it redefines the word, 'upgrade'.

Lumberjack
Premium Member
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

Lumberjack

Premium Member

Telepromt?

Apparently they need a better faq sytem for their agents.

"What is the data rate for overages?".

Right now it must come back with something the agents have to interpret. It should instead come back with an easy to read statement that requires no math or other computational skills. Like icons vs. numbers at McDonald's.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Telepromt?

said by Lumberjack:

Apparently they need a better faq sytem for their agents.
You'd think in the days when most CSRs simply read from scripts this would not be an issue.

shadow3432
@comcast.net

shadow3432

Anon

Re: Telepromt?

I'm guessing that the problem is that the operator doesn't know how to read "$.02/kb" in the script.

The script should be changed to "point zero two dollars per kilobyte" or "two cents per kilobyte".

Lumberjack
Premium Member
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

Lumberjack

Premium Member

Re: Telepromt?

said by shadow3432 :

I'm guessing that the problem is that the operator doesn't know how to read "$.02/kb" in the script.

The script should be changed to "point zero two dollars per kilobyte" or "two cents per kilobyte".
It should say every possible valid statement.
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

Got to love it....

More and more these days, training is cut in the pursuit of profits. Unfortunately, training pays for itself in the long run.

Wrong answers make no one happy and breads distrust between a company and its customers.

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

Packeteers

Premium Member

took 3 calls to get the right answer

I recently had an incident with a 3 cell phone family plan between me and my folks. they were going to Europe for 3 Months while I still needed my phone on the same plan with them. So I inquired what would be the suspended service cost savings on 2 out of 3 phones on the same family plan. my first call got a very generous answer, my second call a very niggardly answer, and finally on the third try I got the correct answer. Had I called only once, I would have suspended those phones only to find them cancelled 3 Months later because of the Hundreds of dollars I would not know I still had to pay. So based on my experience and the YouTube video, it appears that Verizon customer service people generally make up stuff to sound accommodating on the phone, only to find Months later you take it in the rear for charges you would not prepared to pay.

On The Down Low
@bellsouth.net

On The Down Low

Anon

Re: took 3 calls to get the right answer

Part of the confusion is there are multiple data overage/roaming rates

.2 cents, or .002 dollars for data roaming in canada

the overage rate on the 10MB (now) $24.99 is one .5 cents

the pay as you go KB rate in the US is 1.5 cents/kb, or .015 dollars

then there's the new MB charges for the nationwide plans for regular handsets, $1.99/MB

what really needs to happen is for all data to standardize on one price. still no excuse for the wrong answers

•••••

koitsu
MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
Humax BGW320-500

koitsu

MVM

The odd part...

Logically, one would expect Verizon to put in a serious effort with regards to addressing this kind of misunderstanding, solely based on what happened last year. "Serious effort" in my book is defined as: at a bare minimum, re-training existing CSRs to understand the difference between X cents/unit, and X dollars/unit -- and to ensure that new CSRs comprehend the same detail.

This experiment proves to me that Verizon did jack shit to ensure quality service after last year's incident.

I hope next year, someone performs the same experiment again, just to see if the 93% inaccuracy rate drops, remains the same, or increases.

Amusingly enough, at my workplace, we hired someone a few months ago that continually operates under the mentality that 50% * 3 == 100%. This guy has actual certifications for what he does... yet simple math skills seem to be outside of his mental capacity.

Doesn't anyone go to school any more? (And yes, that's a serious question.)

GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium Member
join:2001-10-29
Indianapolis, IN

GlobalMind

Premium Member

Taking the first answer...

I remember when I called to make changes on a plan I have with Sprint (who also has less than adequate service agents), and immediately the answer was that I would have a ETF on that if I made a change.

Do huh? I raised hell and the guy went back and got the right answer, which was umm, NO. I could see perhaps a contract extension (was only a month after I first started the contract so really no big deal) but an ETF on that? LOL Yea right.

If you accept the first thing they say, you're likely to get screwed.
Dissonance
join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY

Dissonance

Member

Re: Taking the first answer...

Exactly! Especially with Sprint!!!
I call twice and ask them to note everything- AND THEY STILL MESS UP!

I purchased two phones last year at $250 each. Before I received them, I found out my cousin had paid $150 for the same phone. So I called support and was transferred to a "special department" who matched the price on the two phones. I asked them to note this in my account.

When I got my bill, only one of the phones was adjusted. So I called and asked them to read me the note which said something like "Customer called for price adjustment. Customer paid $150 per phone."

EVEN WITH THIS NOTE these people treated me like a criminal, telling me how they had gone above and beyond by matching the price on the first phone and that they couldn't do it on the second. I have a bunch of horror stories with Sprint, and so does every sprint customer I know!
madrhino
join:2004-07-03

madrhino

Member

Lies,Lies.Lies!!

This is a complete falsehood.There is no way Verizon has one customer service employee who can answer 2 questions about anything,including their own name and day of the week.
mikenolan7
Premium Member
join:2005-06-07
Torrance, CA

mikenolan7

Premium Member

Dubious Math Skills

So the next question is: Why do they "record this conversation for quality control"?

••••••

Shamayim
Premium Member
join:2002-09-23

Shamayim

Premium Member

There oughta be a law

Is there?

If you record (for proof) their rep quoting you a lowball price, can you hold Vz to it if they charge you a higher rate?
After all, the salesman is officially representing Verizon. Sort of an oral contract if you sign up with him/her. Why shouldn't the lower price stick?
mlundin
join:2001-03-27
Lawrence, KS

mlundin

Member

Re: There oughta be a law

Unfortunately, it's probably all spelled out somewhere in the contract that you eventually have to sign (of course, I naturally assume this, when I probably shouldn't). I'm sure corporate lawyers would bog any of us down until the end of days with such things.
SKYWARP
join:2005-02-02
Portland, OR

SKYWARP

Member

LOL

Damn, that shat was funny as hell.

I passed this link around the office this morning, it was a hit.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

So... what if YOU record the conversation?

So you call up, ask ask specific questions about the data rate.

You record the call.

Based on what the rep tells you, you agree to sign up.

You get hit with a massive bill because the rep screwed up/lied.

Ignore the bill, dispute it. After a few months there's a huge disparity between what Verizon says you owe and what you signed up for.

So, take 'em to court. Play the recording. Win! Verizon gets slapped, you don't pay bill, they pay you your court costs...

Maybe even some nice punitive damages as well. Sounds like they need 'em.

•••••••

floepie
join:2005-12-01

floepie

Member

hi.

I think more people than would seem at the surface know the difference between .002 cents and .002 dollars.

They just don't know what actual word to use when they see "$0.002 / KB" on a piece of paper. Most evidently say, "point zero zero two cents per kilobyte". We'll never really know what percentage of those who say it in that manner, however incorrect it is, know the difference between the 2 amounts that differ by a 100-fold.
ddwibb
join:2004-09-02
Holyoke, MA

ddwibb

Member

Vindicated!

Recently I tried to contact VZW through their on line "contact us" page. For a week and a half they gave me 101 reasons why I needed to call them to get answers.

I got much criticism by family and friends for not simply calling VZW. They didn't believe my fanciful tales of false information coming from VZW's highly trained CSRs.

Never did get the answers

JE
JE 's BACK BABY
Premium Member
join:2000-12-15
Charlotte, NC

JE

Premium Member

LoL...Eat That verizon!

This is great research!!!! I love this! Makes Verizon look very unprofessional that most of the CSR's get the answers wrong. So this means that when you call in and ask a question about something mathematical on your bill, 50% of the time, it will be wrong! Hmmmmmmmmm!
This definitely is not the company I want giving me service, and I work in CS and know the difference and didn't even graduate College!

I think the Cable companies outght to take this video and make a commercial out of it.

JE

Ben
Premium Member
join:2007-06-17
Fort Worth, TX

Ben

Premium Member

I Guess It's Not a Common Question for "Regular Joes" To Ask

If you don't use a certain bit of knowledge often enough, you're likely to forget it. I took Calculus III once, even earning a decent grade, but I probably forgot at least half of what I learned.

I'm guessing that anyone who uses mobile data either gets the "Unlimited" option (VZW really has a 5GB cap), or doesn't bother.

I'm also guessing that most people realize that Pay-as-you-go data is generally a rip-off. Me, I don't bother with Internet access that isn't "unlimited*," or has caps and overage fees. Since I honestly have no idea how many KB or MB many websites are, nor can I be bothered to count the number of pages I visit even if I did know.

*-Every connection has a technical limit, even without artificial limitations. Even if you saturate a T1 24/7, you can only move a certain amount of data in a single month. I can accept this. I can't accept artificial limits or paying overage fees since it's hard to quantify usage. Plus consider the fact that data is often transferred even if you do nothing at all (e.g. automatic virus signature updates). Plus, don't get me started on bots and hacking, which uses bandwidth even if your firewall blocks the connection. It must first receive the connection (and thus use bandwidth) before it can be blocked. It's similar to a door-to-door salesman causing wear and tear on your porch before you turn him away.
NetLarry
join:2007-03-18
Johnstown, PA

NetLarry

Member

Verizon Phone Numbers

You realize that when you call the toll-free number that you see on a TV ad that chances are good that you're NOT talking to Verizon. I worked in a call center where we took calls, and the CSRs did not have most of the information needed to answer questions correctly. Not to mention the call monitoring requirements; must attempt to sell every available service to every caller. Failure to do so will result in a zero score if monitored and 4 zeros and you're out. You should hear customers whose existing services aren't working when you try to sell them something new!

I've abandoned that job and now am a CSR for a small (#15?) cable company, and I'm happier now. No more required lies to callers, and when I transfer you to tech support, it's just across the hall, not in India!
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