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Verizon's Still Happily Blocking Google Wallet
And The FCC Is Still Ignoring Verizon's Bad Behavior
by Karl Bode 02:39PM Tuesday Apr 30 2013
Since last fall Verizon has been trying to justify their blocking of Google Wallet on Verizon phones, insisting the app is blocked because Google Wallet uses the "secure element" on devices to store a user's Google ID. In response to complaints filed with the FCC by lawyer Jay Klimek, Verizon insists the unending blockade has nothing to do with the fact Verizon (in conjunction with AT&T and T-Mobile) is working on their own competing mobile payment platform named Isis.

Click for full size
That's obviously not true, and more than a few people have noticed that Verizon's simply acting anti-competively by preventing their users from using a competing payment service.

Klimek has posted an update over at Phandroid where he notes that Verizon still isn't budging on the block. The C Block rules attached to spectrum Verizon owns don't allow Verizon to block applications unless they are "unlawful or harmful to its network, customers, or customer devices," which of course Google Wallet isn't.
quote:
Now, without getting super technical (if you are a glutton for punishment and want to get super technical, feel free to read my amended complaint where I do investigate the technical issues and discuss the regulations), since Google Wallet uses the same (or substantially similar, i.e. use of the secure element) technology used by ISIS, Verizon cannot have a good faith belief Google Wallet is harmful in any way to its network, customers or customers’ devices.
Except Verizon doesn't appear to have to worry that their faulty logic makes no sense, because the FCC, once again, doesn't appear to be willing to do anything about it.

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topics flat nest 
en103

join:2011-05-02

Net Neutrality anyone ?

This is BS. I suspect that VZW will state that its harming its network, as it won't be able to fund its network with its ISIS profits as much as it would if it had to compete with Google Wallet.

ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2

Re: Net Neutrality anyone ?

If Verizon can get away with the cable co spectrum deal, where they partner with competing cable companies, they can get away with ANYTHING.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Actually they could claim it harms they're network as recent reports show and prove that Google sells/gives away customer information for devices, apps that are used and location. That could damage VZW in anyway they see.
en103

join:2011-05-02
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Re: Net Neutrality anyone ?

Not sure if that would work - this isn't like Microsoft's embedding of IE vs. Netscape. 'Selling' customer information is actually legal - and VZW doesn't have to sell Android devices. But blocking a competing application is a whole different deal.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Net Neutrality anyone ?

depends on what information you are selling. Have you read the TOS for Google Market place, and what goes to developers?? Also they're lies on that if you pay for Google Apps and have Education/Business/Gov't edition, they still read your email and scan for key words??? All is sold.

and this isn't about blocking. VZW has the right to keep them off any service/device/system that is not open to the public if they believe it would harm their system. If Google wants to play; well then they need to change their app or they should have been in the wireless business instead of playing games and just driving up the prices of the spectrum.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

"We're from the Government"...

We're here to HELP you. ROTFLMAO
old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

1 recommendation

The FCC

will ignore this as long as Verizon keeps slipping them cash under the table. Money buys ignorance of improper or illegal behavior.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

Re: The FCC

said by old_wiz_60:

will ignore this as long as Verizon keeps slipping them cash under the table. Money buys ignorance of improper or illegal behavior.

But Google has googles of money.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
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kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

AT&T HTC One user here

Wallet doesn't work for me this phone as well over on AT&T..... and I'm not holding my breath.
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Just use Paypal

Until they open it up or not. It's a carrier choice, regardless of rules. Microsoft built their empire on breaking rules and companies. It works. After they made billions and paid millions, guess who won?

Are we surprise when Verizon devices are the most locked down out there (well maybe tracfone), and for years they forced customer's to use the crappy VZW navigator and VZ store instead of competing options? This has been their MO for years. Nothing to report here.

Apple is the master dictator of what goes on their phones.

We live in a proprietary world. Open source is for geeks, guys...

buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

Re: Just use Paypal

Open Source and Open Internet are not the same thing.

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

Or use barcode apps

My iPhone has the ability to display bar codes that are scanned by the merchant. I use this all the time at Dunkin Donuts.

I don't see any value in NFC as the infrastructure is not in widespread use. Barcode scanners are widely deployed and almost every merchant has them. And the barcode apps are from the merchants themselves, not Verizon.

At least that is one nice thing about Apple, they control their phones and not have VZ or AT&T add their junk to the phones (other than carrier locks). I also like getting the updates from Apple and not relying on a carrier to release the update. I've used both Android and iOS and I like iOS better.
--
I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner and I currently have DirecTV. They are much better than broadcast TV.

I have not and will not cut the cord.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Or use barcode apps

Devices by carrier or by Apple are a moot point. Google could do the same with MOT Mobility and had the chance to be their own wireless provider but gave up and even stated they had no plans on becoming one. They'll also never expand Google Wallet as it's been several different brands already.

Android depends on the phone and the carrier, but you don't have to deal with carrier "junk" if you root the phone and uninstall their crap, it's not that hard to do.
Happydude32
Premium
join:2005-07-16
kudos:1
What exactly does that have to do with anything? How are bar code scanner apps relevant to NFC or Google Wallet?

Most major retailers have credit card terminals that support NFC. I have used NFC in conjunction with Google Wallet plenty of times to pay for groceries and gas on my Evo LTE. And NFC is not just used for payment, I can be used for file and data transfer as well. Too bad you don’t see any value in NFC, it’s a really nice technology. And again, just because you don’t see value in something doesn’t mean others have the same feeling. Wht about that can’t you comprehend? But then again, Apple doesn’t support NFC, so why would you see any value in it. You probably didn’t see any value in LTE a year ago either. In two or three years when Apple catches up with the rest of the world, you’ll probably think near field communication is the best thing around.
--
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Repeal Obamacare Now!

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

Re: Or use barcode apps

I could not wait to get LTE on my iPhone. As soon as I was eligible for an upgrade, I bought the iPhone 5 as it has LTE.

When the iPhone came to VZW in March of 2011, it only supported CDMA/EVDO and not LTE, even though VZW had just begun deploying LTE. Our area got LTE in July 2011 and the June 1st tornado accelerated the process as they had to rebuild towers that were destroyed during the tornado and Boston was one of the initial LTE cities.

The only complaint I have about the iPhone 5 is battery life as I have to charge it every night.
--
I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner and I currently have DirecTV. They are much better than broadcast TV.

I have not and will not cut the cord.
Happydude32
Premium
join:2005-07-16
kudos:1

Re: Or use barcode apps

What does any of that have to do with NFC, and what does NFC have to do with bar code scanner apps?
Expand your moderator at work
wkm001

join:2009-12-14

Here is Verizon's response to my FCC complaint

»www.dropbox.com/s/ylv6ftie6u9xzce/FCC.bmp

WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

Re: Here is Verizon's response to my FCC complaint

There ya go...Verizon tells FCC they aren't. Game over.
/sarcasm
Cogdis

join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY
FCC: Hey how come you're blocking Google wallet?
Verizon: "Well Google wallet works like 'this'. Other apps work like 'that'. We want Google wallet to work like 'that'.
FCC: Ok, why?
Verizon: (waves hand) you don't need to know why
FCC: We don't need to know why.

XPAMD
Premium
join:2002-06-08
united state
Since Google Wallet is allowed on Sprint, and assuming the "Secure Element" is the same across carrier and like phones (ie Galaxy S3's) How can this same secure element be a "threat" to Verizon while yet Sprint doesn't bat an eye?!

It's gonna take Google Going after Verizon on it, however Google probably doesn't want to burn it's bridges.

hey hey hey

@charter.com

not everything is a conspriacy folks

"the app is blocked because Google Wallet uses the "secure element"

Simple Google should stop using the "secure element" THEN if Verizon still doesn't allow the app THEN you have a case.

David
I start new work on
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:101
Reviews:
·DIRECTV
·AT&T Midwest
·magicjack.com
·Google Voice

1 recommendation

Re: not everything is a conspriacy folks

said by hey hey hey :

"the app is blocked because Google Wallet uses the "secure element"

Simple Google should stop using the "secure element" THEN if Verizon still doesn't allow the app THEN you have a case.

That's about what I took out of it when I read it. Exactly what is the "Secure element" and why does Google wallet need it, much less Google needing access to it?
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
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TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: not everything is a conspriacy folks

Another way for Google to track you and sell your information to others. Sounds like the secure element is the part of the phone where VZ stores it's own information about the phone, etc. There is no reason why Google should/would need access to that. I don't blame VZW one bit on this as I would want them to protect me and my services FROM Google.
tennisman94

join:2010-02-18
Palm Harbor, FL
kudos:2

Re: not everything is a conspriacy folks

said by TBBroadband:

Another way for Google to track you and sell your information to others. Sounds like the secure element is the part of the phone where VZ stores it's own information about the phone, etc. There is no reason why Google should/would need access to that. I don't blame VZW one bit on this as I would want them to protect me and my services FROM Google.

The secure element is necessary for Google Wallet to work using NFC. To put it in simpler terms, the secure element stores the virtual Mastercard number that gets transmitted to payment terminals when you use Google Wallet. It's the only way to do secure payments over NFC, which is more reliable that some sort of bar-code, and arguably more secure. The Google boogeyman is not out to get you. The only use for the secure element is secure NFC communication, and nothing except Google wallet is using it right now. Eventually ISIS will use it, but it may require using a secure element built into a SIM card instead of on the phone's motherboard. Verizon is trying to pull the wool over the FCC's eyes' here; they don't want google wallet to get a foothold on the devices on their network (which they consider to be their devices, consumer choice be damned) before they can launch their competing ISIS product.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: not everything is a conspriacy folks

Well Google needs to come up with a better system then. And if its a Google product, yes you should be concerned with what they want access to that part of the phone for when nobody else does.

And again; Google should have built their own system, Sprint's always been for sale. Hell they could have purchased TMO-USA
tennisman94

join:2010-02-18
Palm Harbor, FL
kudos:2

Re: not everything is a conspriacy folks

said by TBBroadband:

Well Google needs to come up with a better system then. And if its a Google product, yes you should be concerned with what they want access to that part of the phone for when nobody else does.

And again; Google should have built their own system, Sprint's always been for sale. Hell they could have purchased TMO-USA

NFC is the internationally standardized best system. You can store the credit card number on a secure element built into the phone, or a secure element built into the SIM card. That's why it's necessary. Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile all will be using the secure element with their ISIS service, it's currently live in two US cities. (see here: »www.paywithisis.com/secure.xhtml) All of the bullets on that page are applicable to Google Wallet.(except the privacy one, and google has an opt-out at the bottom of this page »wallet.google.com/files/privacy.html) Verizon knows that the secure element is necessary, and that's why they're blocking Google from using it. To be clear: everyone that does NFC payments needs access to the secure element, Google has just been the first company to do so in the US. This stuff has been in Japan for 4 years, the US carriers have held back its adoption so that they can cash in, and in Verizon's case, it's a clear violation of the conditions placed on the spectrum that they bought.

David
I start new work on
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:101
Reviews:
·DIRECTV
·AT&T Midwest
·magicjack.com
·Google Voice
only thing I question is this part of the agreement..

Use of Google Wallet with third parties

We are not responsible for which merchants or other third parties you choose to share information with from Google Wallet. These include third party provider Wallet services that you register for directly and access through Google Wallet. The third party’s receipt of, use of, and disclosure of your personal information from Google Wallet is subject to the third party’s privacy policy, data security policy and terms and conditions. This Google Wallet Privacy Notice does not apply to your use of Google Wallet with third parties and any resulting data uses or disclosures by such third parties.

So exactly why would they need "Secure element" access if they are not responsible for 3rd party sharing anyway (per their agreement someone posted above)?

I guess the larger question is:

If it is supposed to be a "secure element" I am guessing 3rd parties shouldn't have access right? That would kind of undermine the whole "secure element" idea. At that point why have a "secure element" at all?
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!

joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
kudos:6

1 recommendation

The secure element is a chip in the phone specifically designed for this purpose. If you feel it's insecure or don't want Google accessing it, then don't use their software!

However last time I checked the phone and the chips inside the phone don't belong to Verizon so they shouldn't be dictating how they are used to begin with.
--
PRescott7-2097
dickie541

join:2013-04-30
Redmond, OR

Consumer Rights

Where is the Washington AG on this one?

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
Reviews:
·Charter

Re: Consumer Rights

said by dickie541:

Where is the Washington AG on this one?

Yes. Where is Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson when there is a real concern about corporations misleading residents and disabling features for anti competitive reasons? [Contact Him][»www.atg.wa.gov/ContactUs.aspx#By_phone]

linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State

It's not complicated

The one with the deepest wallet and perfect plate of cheese and whine wins. FCC does not allow one byte of competition.
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside
pkorx8

join:2003-06-19
San Francisco, CA

why? google wallet kinda sucks.

Why aren't people complaining about sprint also? Sprint seems to be blocking Google wallet too.
Actually, there is a work around and I have Google wallet working on the sprint optimus g. See xda for details.

Umm, Google wallet kinda sucks. It uses the MasterCard pay pass system, so the merchant needs to be pay pass equipped. And as you guessed, not too many merchants are. The only ones I really use are peets, MCD, and once at whole foods.
And if you are like me and thought the swipe checkout is a cool NFC only thing, it is not. There are visa, mc, and amex credit cards with the built innfc chip for the pay pass system, so they can all do the swipe checkout. Google wallet swipe checkout is not that unique, and actually less practical than a standard cc with pay pass.

Veloslave
Geek For God
Premium
join:2003-07-11
Martinez, CA
kudos:1

Wallet working great

In my rooted GNEX
GraysonPeddi
Grayson Peddie

join:2010-06-28
Tallahassee, FL

While Verizon Happily Blocks Google Wallet133;

…I’m still happily being a T-Mobile subscriber!

T-Mobile for the open-minded, Verizon for the closed-minded.

Thanks for playing, Verizon!
--
Phone: Yealink SIP-T22P + CSipSimple in Optimus V
Phone System: Asterisk 10.1; Server: Debian Sid+Exp

I'm in heaven with VoIP except for 3G wireless.
wkm001

join:2009-12-14

Re: While Verizon Happily Blocks Google Wallet133;

I doubt you will accept my argument with an open mind since you already consider me close minded... But I'm with Verizon for the coverage. I took a 6.5 hour road trip this weekend and had 4G coverage throughout 90% of the trip. When we arrived at our destination 4G was plentiful throughout the entire city (Nashville). Which was a huge bonus because the free wifi at the hotel was not available for most of the weekend.
GraysonPeddi
Grayson Peddie

join:2010-06-28
Tallahassee, FL

Re: While Verizon Happily Blocks Google Wallet133;

I always felt to happy without realizing what I just said. My bad.