 Bob61571
join:2008-08-08 Washington, IL | and what's the backup plan? That's fine, but what's the backup plan?
This is like punishing a 5 year old, for trying to drive the family car. | |
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 |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: and what's the backup plan? Perhaps the state will attempt to run it? Or they'll claim imminent domain, purchase the assets and auction them to the highest bidder. I'm very thankful I'm not a VT resident. The citizens are going to pay through the nose either way...in quality of service and taxes. | |
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 |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: and what's the backup plan? said by openbox9 :Perhaps the state will attempt to run it? Or they'll claim imminent domain, purchase the assets and auction them to the highest bidder. I'm very thankful I'm not a VT resident. The citizens are going to pay through the nose either way...in quality of service and taxes. Auction as a whole to highest bidder, start bid at $0, Fairpoint gets that amount minus current fines.
Other thing to do it turn it into a municipal/non profit/coop and divert all the dividends to the plant/operations/upgrades. | |
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 |  |  |  |  Samsonian
join:2007-06-15
| Re: and what's the backup plan? I agree with you on this.
The state should take it over, convert into a co-op, independent non-profit, or independent state owned corporation (like a muni). Bring in telecom turnaround specialists to stabilize it. Given how far Fairpoint's operations have slid and its landline losses, the state might need to throw it a lifeline for a year or so.
After it's stabilized and generating operating surpluses again, the real work can begin: upgrading to a Fiber to the Premise (FTTP) network. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   TKJunkMail Enjoy the sun Premium join:2002-03-03 Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: and what's the backup plan? said by Samsonian :The state should take it over, convert into a co-op, independent non-profit, or independent state owned corporation (like a muni). Bring in telecom turnaround specialists to stabilize it. Given how far Fairpoint's operations have slid and its landline losses, the state might need to throw it a lifeline for a year or so.
After it's stabilized and generating operating surpluses again, the real work can begin: upgrading to a Fiber to the Premise (FTTP) network. A year or so? How about forever. When the gov't takes something over, they almost never give it back. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  Samsonian
join:2007-06-15
| Re: and what's the backup plan? There are literally thousands of successful co-op's and muni's in the United States. They require no government assistance beyond start up costs. Ratepayers pay for all of the services they receive.
Ratepayers at co-op's and muni's typically get better services at lower rates than investor-owned utilities (IOUs), even in adjacent areas. That's certainly true in my home state of California. My local utility monopoly, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E), charges me far more than adjacent areas that have a municipally owned utility. And I'm residential customer, commercial/industrial probably pay higher rates.
If the co-op or muni utility is successful, why privatize something that's working?
The only thing that's guaranteed is higher rates, because utilities are the epitome of natural monopoly. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  hottboiinnc ME
join:2003-10-15 Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: and what's the backup plan? because this is what happens when Cities and other Gov'ts get into private business: »www.clydeohio.org/Light%20and%20···ault.asp
they deploy a half ass system and then want to spend more money to deploy FTTH.
VZ and TWC will be sure to kill this project, which they should after the City spent millions already on a project that failed. | |
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 |  |   cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN
| said by TKJunkMail :And no question asked by the idiot AP reporter on who would run the system if Fairpoint loses the franchise. To almost anyone with half a brain, that would be the very 1st question of the state bureaucrat calling for Fairpoint to be thrown out of the state. Would it add a lot to the article to ask that question and get an official response of "We don't know"? | |
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 |  |  |  Austinloop
join:2001-08-19 Austin, TX
| Re: and what's the backup plan? Well, if some state bureaucrat is suggesting that a company be thrown out, then why don't they have a plan to replace. Seems rather stupid (oh, I forgot, politics) to suggest throwing some business out and not having a plan to replace them. Oh, I forgot that the political theme is "Ready, shot, Aim, sorta like the feds and healthcare. | |
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 |  |  |  |   cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: and what's the backup plan? said by Austinloop :Well, if some state bureaucrat is suggesting that a company be thrown out, then why don't they have a plan to replace. It sounds just as silly to draft a plan to replace a company when you haven't even decided to replace the company.
They are just starting the process and investigating. If they were announcing that they were revoking the franchise agreement, then I would expect them to know what was going to happen to the customers. | |
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 PapaMidnight
join:2009-01-13 Baltimore, MD
| And then what? So you take away their right to do business. Then what? A few hundred thousand customers are left without service since (as is the case in the majority of America) Fairpoint is likely a monopoly operator in some of the markets? Not to say ample punishment shouldn't be made, but let's be realistic: A fine will just be passed on to customers as a "State fee", a strip of a license to provide service to the state will result in loss of service to customers, and letting them off will just result in... nothing. | |
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 |  dick white Premium join:2000-03-24 Annandale, VA | Re: And then what? Maybe they need to recognize that Verizon acted in bad faith when they spun off Fairpoint, knowing that it was not a viable plan in the first place. Then penalize Verizon.
dw | |
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 |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA | Re: And then what? VZ acted just fine. Fairpoint acted in bad faith...and regulators that allowed the deal to go through. | |
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 |  |  bicker
join:2007-05-10 Burlington, MA
| Verizon acted in good faith. It is the states that are not acting in good faith, by trying to regulate these industries so heavily that companies like Verizon have no financial incentive to operate in those states.
If you want good service, make it worth it to industry. Don't expect something for nothing. Don't impose fines for bad service when either regulations or cheap customers don't support high-enough rates, necessarily to support high enough profits.
Remember, every single dollar of an investor's money must compete with every other possible way that money can be invested. If you want a company to expend those resources in a certain direction, doing so must be the best possible use of that capital. | |
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 |  |  |  Skippy25
join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO | Re: And then what? Go bury your head back in the sand. You have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
Verizon and AT&T make more NET PROFITS in a quarter than a very large % of companies worldwide make in a year. | |
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 |  |  |  |  bicker
join:2007-05-10 Burlington, MA
| Re: And then what? My head is very clear and very much aware of the reality. Evidently yours is clouded by your own selfishness. You see a big company doing what it is supposed to do for its owners and you're envious. Your own personal greed is prompting you to condemn Verizon and AT&T for doing what they're required by law to do: Put the best financial interests of their owners first.
If you want a piece of the pie, then INVEST. Don't expect a corporation to be a charity because you WANT. | |
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 |  sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24 Cleveland, OH
| said by PapaMidnight :A fine will just be passed on to customers as a "State fee", a strip of a license to provide service to the state will result in loss of service to customers, and letting them off will just result in... nothing. If Fairpoint or any company could raise prices to cover the cost of a fine, why wouldn't they have done so already? Why would they leave money on the table? No, a fine will not pass the costs down to the customer, and it's silly for the state to have a backup plan when they've only begun to investigate the situation. | |
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 cptmiles Premium join:2004-04-22 Swayzee, IN
| Crazy Ideas Personally I think they should take away all the tax benefits Verizon got from the deal, put it in a big pot controlled by the state to improve the service to expectations.
You can't shut 'em down. You can't fine them. You can't make Verizon come back in and operate. You can't MAKE anyone operate.
Another radical idea would be freeze all their operations and have a territory fire sale within the state and have all the proceeds going to the customers/taxpayers.
How much worse can it really get?
As a employee of a small telco in Indiana I would love to put a bid in to operate an exchange or two if the price is right. Make Vermont a state of Independents. | |
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 |   TKJunkMail Enjoy the sun Premium join:2002-03-03 Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Crazy Ideas said by cptmiles :Personally I think they should take away all the tax benefits Verizon got from the deal, put it in a big pot controlled by the state to improve the service to expectations. The tax benefits(Reverse Morris Trust) didn't go to Verizon. They went to the Verizon shareholders who ended up getting Fairpoint shares. And the benefit was under FEDERAL tax law and are not under Vermont's control. | |
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 |   cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN
| said by cptmiles :As a employee of a small telco in Indiana I would love to put a bid in to operate an exchange or two if the price is right. Make Vermont a state of Independents. Yes, that's the answer. Fragment a state already with issues into much smaller segments and let those segments be ran by companies with no presence within 800 miles of the area being served. What happens to all those areas that don't happen to get bought up in the fire sale? | |
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 |  |  mrkahuna
join:2002-07-25 Shelburne, VT | Re: Crazy Ideas There's actually a couple small telecoms already based in and operating in Vermont. They might be a good option. They rolled out DSL/Fiber faster than Verizon did and Fairpoint currently is ( or isn't at all in the case of Fiber ). | |
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 |  |  |   cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN
1 edit | Re: Crazy Ideas said by mrkahuna :There's actually a couple small telecoms already based in and operating in Vermont. Operative words emphasized. cptmiles says he works for a small ISPtelco in the middle of Indiana. That's a far distance away from anything related to Vermont. It's not impossible for such a company to work, but the same types of reservations that people had towards Fairpoint taking over would also apply to his company.
If the territory was going to be split up, split it up for established local or regional companies, not someone 800 miles away with 9 employees and 1100 customers.
Edited: Changed ISP to telco | |
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 |  |  |  |  cptmiles Premium join:2004-04-22 Swayzee, IN
| Re: Crazy Ideas I said I worked for a small Telco, not a small ISP. Big difference! Maybe not to someone who doesn't work in the industry or to pure ISPs, but small telephone companies know how to provide service in rural areas much better than the larger companies.
I am not talking about buying Vermont or something stupid like that, I am just saying there are a lot of independent telephone companies in the U.S. (not just me) that could do a world of good in the more rural areas of Vermont given half a chance. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Crazy Ideas said by cptmiles :I said I worked for a small Telco, not a small ISP. Big difference! Maybe not to someone who doesn't work in the industry or to pure ISPs, but small telephone companies know how to provide service in rural areas much better than the larger companies. So what are your telco's DSL speed tiers and their prices? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  cptmiles Premium join:2004-04-22 Swayzee, IN
| Re: Crazy Ideas Right off the website..
Up to 1.5 - $24.95 Up to 5M - $29.95 Stand Alone DSL - 1.5 M - $32.95 Stand Alone DSL - 5 M - $39.95
We also have a 10M tier for $49.95 if anyone wants it but it is not listed. There are some bundled pricing discounts on top of these so if you had our POTS, cable TV (a very basic and cheap product) and 5M DSL a 5M DSL cost would be around $24-$26. Cheap enough? I think Vermont would love what we have to offer, but it comes after years of hard work, not overnight.
We deploy Occam ADSL2+ so our upstream is maxed out around 800k, but that is enough for most.
We are starting to look into some FTTP, but that stuff is very expensive and the economy is rough and NO I don't want any Obama money. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Crazy Ideas Impressive. I was expect "our DSL equipment is on a 30 year mortgage with a depreciation plan by Uncle Tony and financed by Uncle Vito's boys", and there is a bonded copper T1 or L carrier from the CO to the POP.
I was expecting speeds and prices in line with this rural ISP.
»www.redred.com/internet/dsl.html | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   kontos xyzzy
join:2001-10-04 West Henrietta, NY | What's your backbone connection to "The Internet" look like? (Just Curious) | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  cptmiles Premium join:2004-04-22 Swayzee, IN
| Re: Crazy Ideas We are part of a group of Indiana independents that created a statewide fiber network. www.indianafiber.net if you are curious. Thus, I have a 100M connection with the capacity to 1G if I need it on a completely independent and ring protected fiber run.
IFN then connects to two tier one providers and a tier three provider in Indianapolis. I'll explain more if you like. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   cdru Go Colts Premium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN
| said by cptmiles :I said I worked for a small Telco, not a small ISP. Big difference! I corrected my post. I meant telco. I presumed based on your location that you worked for Swayzee Telephone. Is that correct? If so, I was just going by this page that says "we currently employ 9 employees and have 1100+ subscriber lines."
Maybe not to someone who doesn't work in the industry or to pure ISPs, but small telephone companies know how to provide service in rural areas much better than the larger companies. I know. I'm not saying that a small telco couldn't service a portion or even just a town in Vermont. But just like many other types of service-based businesses, having a huge distance between service locations does not make it easier for economy of scale to come into play. You can't easily share some types of technical resources or labor pools between the locations just based on distance alone. | |
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 |  |  |  |  mrkahuna
join:2002-07-25 Shelburne, VT
| Actually I was referring to a couple already headquartered in VT that could be candidates for acquiring some more territory.
»www.wcvt.com/ »www.vermontel.com/
Both seem to have pretty good reputations. There's also Burlington Telecom that is just in the city right now but is deploying fiber and could easily move into the suburbs. | |
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|
 guppy_fish Premium join:2003-12-09 Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
| True cost of service Verizon was losing money, so they dumped the business
New business is still losing money, is this the telco's fault or is it the regulations ( price fixing ) that forces the service to be sold below cost and prevent proper investment to maintain and improve the infrastructure
In the end the regulators are working for the citizens of the state, which wants a service as low cost as possible, regardless if that is below a point that a business can operate .. so its the citizens that are at the root cause of this, the something for nothing mentality | |
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 |  See 35 replies to this post |
|
 Sammer
join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Next up Frontier Are the utility commissions that have to approve the Frontier deal even paying attention, probably not. | |
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 |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA | Re: Next up Frontier A careful eye should definitely keep watch over the Frontier deal, but I do believe they're in better shape than Fairpoint. | |
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 |
 GenBlood
join:2005-04-14 Nashua, NH
| I blame the regulators ... This deal was so wrong from the start ... The regulators should have done it in 3 stages ...
It should have done one state at a time ... Pick one state and do the switch over ... The regulators would over look the switch. When the the transfer is done and up an running. Then they can move to the next state .. an so on ..
Thats what they should have done ...
Right now, I'm just waiting to see if it goes belly up ... | |
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 |   mrkevin Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. Premium join:2007-08-07 Aurora, ME clubs:
·US Cellular
·Dish Network
·magicjack.com
·Rivah.net
| Re: I blame the regulators ... said by GenBlood :This deal was so wrong from the start ... The regulators should have done it in 3 stages ... It should have done one state at a time ... Pick one state and do the switch over ... The regulators would over look the switch. When the the transfer is done and up an running. Then they can move to the next state .. an so on .. Thats what they should have done ... Right now, I'm just waiting to see if it goes belly up ... I agree, Holy Cow! A 280 million dollar company taking over 2.3 BILLION dollars in debt. It has become the worse disaster since the Titanic Wonder who's going to be next inline  -- An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
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 |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: I blame the regulators ... said by mrkevin :I agree, Holy Cow! A 280 million dollar company taking over 2.3 BILLION dollars in debt. It has become the worse disaster since the Titanic Wonder who's going to be next inline Going bankrupt and discharge all the debt was part of the plan from day 1. Don't worry, debt holders have some of those AIG CDSes to protect them. | |
|
 |   Homer J Mmmm, Free Goo
join:2000-10-05 Springfield | Which state would want to be the test case? Talk about a hot potato. | |
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  ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs: | Hmmmm.... Wonder if the big unions back by BHO and our tax money will step in and buy out Fairpoint Vermont and just run it themselves?? | |
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 |  See 6 replies to this post |
|
  JasonOD
@comcast.net
| How about the Vermont legislature offer to help out instead of kicking them why they're struggling. They should realize just how high stakes talk like that really is, and how unattractive states like theirs are to do business with in the first place. They are gambling with their own citizens communication service for crying out loud. | |
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 |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY | Re: How about the Vermont legislature BAILOUT TIME!!! | |
|
  fool
@metrocast.net
from: kontos 
| fine Fairpoint until BK or they get things together If company is not performing - the regulators should fine Fairpoint until they are. If Fairpoint can't get things together, they will end up in bankruptcy and operations will continue as normal under court protection.
Fairpoint shareholders take a big hit, but that is how things are supposed to work (unless your a banker).
Without the debt, perhaps adequate investments can be made. I would look at this as a opportunity if I were a regulator.
It will be a long ugly process, but mistakes were made and you might as well start the fix now. | |
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  kyler13 Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12 Arnold, MD | Crafty When the Fairpoint sale went down, someone commented right here on DSLreports about Fairpoint running it into the ground and Verizon swooping back in to pick it up for pennies on the dollar. Wow. Nice flip, Verizon. | |
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 |   ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs: | Re: Crafty I made a comment like that but wasn't the only one. I guess we may see sooner or later what Verizon will do if Fairpoint loses its rights in Vermont. | |
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 gower2352
join:2005-06-08 Weston, WV | Frontier-Verizon Deal and this is one reason why the current Frontier Verizon deal needs to be shot down. | |
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 |   AMDUSER Premium join:2003-05-28 Earth clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Re: Frontier-Verizon Deal The upside for that is Frontier has about 2.3 million customers - and that they are substantially paying for the deal with stock.
The purchase with add about 2x as many customers as they currently have. [-Unlike Fairpoint, Frontier will be using the billing system Verizon is using to avoid billing hassles.][Smart move IMO..]
Fairpoint should have realized that the deal was too big to swallow. It would not be surprising if Fairpoint was given the boot in Vermont. | |
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  Harddrive Premium join:2000-09-20 Norwich, CT | States own it and run it. what's wrong with the 3 States taking control of the infrastructure and running it themselves? hell, it might even lower prices. -- I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
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 |  See 7 replies to this post |
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 alchav
join:2002-05-17 Palm Desert, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Bring back the Magic Lady!
This is an old joke when I was in Vietnam looking at Floor Shows. Sometimes the worst show is the best, so in this case Vermont brings back Verizon FiOS, or they Bite the Bullet and bring in a Company with a Fiber Plan. Very few people see the Big Picture, they want to keep squeezing old Technology and Infrastructure. Copper is obsolete, the only viable plan is with Fiber. Wireless has it's place, but for High Speed Broadband, Phone, and Video, Fiber is the only way to go. | |
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 ajeff
join:2007-07-30 Saint Johnsbury, VT
| What's happenning on the ground! As a very rural Vermonter and an IT consultant I can tell you from direct experience I get less problem calls for internet problems w/FP than I ever did with Verizon. Additionally, when you do have a problem you get helpful, English speaking tech support folks who are actually eager to help you and knowledgable to boot. On the other hand, the State has dumped hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants to the likes of Great Auk Wireless (Great Ugh to those who know them well!) and they will never get it right. These folks are carpetbaggers at best offering 1meg down, 120k up for $50/mo (when it works!). Their motto is "We go where nobody else does". What they don't say is that they do this because they can't compete!
Had the State of Vermont helped FP with some of these funds rather than beat them over the head maybe we here in the sticks would have reliable 1meg DSL for $15/mo!
I realize that most of you on this board have little good to say re DSL but things are sooo bad it would be such an improvement here in the Northeast Kingdom! | |
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 tmc8080
join:2004-04-24 Floral Park, NY
| splits-ville Simple: take highest ROI geographies and aution them off to the highest bidder... take the bottom 50% and run it as a non-profit muni FTTP system (other states seem to have been able to do this successfully, MN as an example)-- which means moderately costly upgrades which mostly have to be done ONCE in a generation. It would also be nice to redesign infrastructure to make things alot easier on themselves the next time cables have to be replaced by having retracting, and feeder lines which can be partially automated in their deployment instead of slogging along every few hundred feet! | |
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 mc5w
join:2002-06-14 Independence, OH
| Peaking of Munis Municipal utilities do not pay property taxes on their equipment and investor owned utilities have to pay through the nose on property taxes because every itty bitty alleged city and county sees an investor owned utility as a cash cow.
However, there have been some instances such as Hudson, Ohio for instance where the PUC took away the ILEC's monopoly and ordered AT&T to build a central office and put up telephone cables. the ILEC straightened out really fast when AT&T took away even a small fraction of their customers. | |
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 hottboiinnc ME
join:2003-10-15 Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| 90 Day File Fairpoint at this point in time should file in Vermont for a 90 day notice to abandon all services that they offer and walk away.
If the state wants to threaten why not help? After all who's going to be able to operate that network? The State? LMAO I hope they have the money to pay the CWA employees.
By the way I'm sure TWC and Comcast won't like that idea of the state operating it and will take that issue to the Courts. | |
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 Rand Wilson
join:2007-06-23 Somerville, MA | It's looking like a better idea all the time Now that its a total SNAFU, getting out might be the best way forward for Vermonters. | |
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