 
GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
1 edit |  Sounds like a viable mid term strategy
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ontarioGuy
@grouptelecom.net
| Re: Sound like a viable mid term strategy No stating which company but Videotron is not the first to do this in canada, I know of another cable company already implimenting this however I do not think it was made public.....alll I know is new builds will be done this way, as far as the remaining plant, slowly.... | |
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TilhasBB
Formally Goden99
Premium
join:2000-08-05
canada
1 edit | Re: Sounds like a viable mid term strategy What is the point of having 5000Mbps per second if you have caps of 50GB?
I understand you dont want it to be harassed by "hogs" but put something reasonable like 200GBs
Bell Sympatico is a very nice and friendly company compare to Videotron. I wouldnt switch if it was offered free. | |
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ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN | Caps=Cheap ISP Can someone please tell me why they even bother with 30mbps+ with CAPS? 30-50GB is just absurd.
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WhY sO SeRiOUs!? | |
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Andalso
@tds.net
| Re: Caps=Cheap ISP said by espaeth  :said by ztmike :Can someone please tell me why they even bother with 30mbps+ with CAPS? Rate and quantity are not necessarily directly related. If they raise the speed limit on the road I take to work, it doesn't mean that I drive further to go to work -- it means my trip to the office is completed faster. And also you can go more places that you need to go in that time. Why make it a toll road? | |
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| | MousePad
join:2005-01-08
Jonquiere, QC | Wrong analogy IMHO,
I'd say, they raise the speed limit, but my tank of gas stays the same... So I burn through it faster  | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY | ~$0.50/minute is why. | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
 ·AT&T Southeast
| It's not absurd for a large number of consumers. I consider myself an "active" user of my connection and I routinely average 20 GB/mth, so 30-50 GB is great. Now, the reason for 30+ Mbps connections with caps is to allow customers to do what they need to do in a efficient manner while controlling the hogs that have a potential to crush the network. For example, I wish that I had 30+ Mbps last night when I downloaded Xcode at ~1 GB. I could have cut my 15 minute download time to less than 5 minutes. | |
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TigerLord
Resident Pentaxian
Premium,Mod
join:2002-06-09
Chicoutimi | Yes it is.
However its only competitor is Symcraptico, so let's just hope they don't anhilate the service quality further down to Bell's levels. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON | ... not exactly new. I believe Mountain Cable in Hamilton has been using something like this since they rebuilt their network several years ago. Their node sizes are generally 75-150 homes per node, or at least that's what I've read. | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| ... 50Mbps per second at a cost of $1.50 per GB. My decidedly rough math puts that at about $0.50/minute.
Uhhmm, sorry guys. If you really need that kind of money to see a decent profit then the service is just more expensive than I can afford. | |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| basically FIOS They are approaching FIOS in node density.
GPON is 64 users share a channel, BPON is 32 users, this is 125, very close. Remember not all houses will subscribe to cable.
Only problem coax can't scale like fiber. Try to do DWDM on a coax  | |
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SterlingJ85
Obama 2008
join:2000-11-19
Millville, NJ | Re: basically FIOS Yes, but copper plants (telco or cable) are also more expensive to maintain than fiber facilities.
I'm waiting for one cable company to just say we're going fiber too!
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-Sterling | |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC | Does FIOS leak (ingress and egress) light like Cable leaks RF? I'm assuming not but I'm not sure. | |
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elbm
join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Coax has been able to do frequency division multiplexing since the beginning And the Bell System has been doing frequency multiplexing over copper since 1919. Not that anyone cares. | |
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| MOTO6809
join:2007-11-05
Springfield, MA
| said by patcat88 :They are approaching FIOS in node density. GPON is 64 users share a channel, BPON is 32 users, this is 125, very close. Remember not all houses will subscribe to cable. Only problem coax can't scale like fiber. Try to do DWDM on a coax Aurora's design allows cable to take advantage of the fibers going to the node today. As you know DWDM is like giving them a new strand of fiber out to the node, which allows them expand bandwidth(splitting nodes)without dumping a bunch of cash hanging fiber from the headend/hub to the node.
It's a good solution for today and tomorrow's needs. It allow them to build it on an as needed basis. I can't see cable going FTTP widespread anytime soon.
As far as coax, it's limit is what's on each end of it. Look at coax in the early 80's we were doing 200Mhz at best and now we are at 1Ghz+ with the same coax. | |
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funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC | Re: basically FIOS So when is the right time?
As part of a municipal, state, or nationwide policy, should communities that are replacing sewers and storm drains ask Cable and Telcos to replace copper with fiber at the same time? | |
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join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA
| Re: basically FIOS Cableco's will object to outright replacing fiber with copper, since it would almost certainly increase their costs (even with fiber maintenance benefits) thanks to now having multiple types of networks to run (phone companies already have this issue and are more experienced with dealing with it)
Telcos, meanwhile, can't replace the copper, because people will complain that fiber networks are closed to outside ISPs and so will demand that the phone lines remain... | |
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| | | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA | I'm sure it makes sense to consider laying empty conduit whenever the streets have work. Then, they can vacuum/pull new lines when they get enough of the conduit in place and decide to do some sort of upgrade or maintenance. | |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| genius After reading about Aurora's technology, I love it. Its basically a DWDM fiber system where you can fill each wavelength with whatever service you want. You can run (B/G?)PON, HFC, 100FX and 1000LX on the same backhaul fiber and out of the same "node" by putting the right cards/modules in it. There are also daisy chaining of fiber schemes so you don't need to run more backhaul fiber.
Another interesting approach is to digitally sample the analog RF upstream of the HFC plant into a digital signal and then put the digital signal on the backhaul fiber (saves alot of bandwidth I guess).
Upgrading to PON or some FTTH scheme with this system as as simple as running fiber from the node to the house, users who don't need the fiber still stay on the coax plant. | |
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pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| At 50 cents/minute with the caps This is the most expensive internet I've seen yet with the worst caps period. Who in the world would pay that much just to have faster internet when the caps are so ridiculous! If I was using the internet at full speed which is what I would use that speed for (VPN between house and work + downloads + and house to ps3 connectivity + P2P) my bandwith would cost 50 cents per minute then even more at 1.00 dollar a minute. I'm sorry but their catering the to ultra elite at that cost and the computer inefficient.
Ripoff | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps said by pspcrazy :This is the most expensive internet I've seen yet with the worst caps period. Who in the world would pay that much just to have faster internet when the caps are so ridiculous! If I was using the internet at full speed which is what I would use that speed for (VPN between house and work + downloads + and house to ps3 connectivity + P2P) my bandwith would cost 50 cents per minute then even more at 1.00 dollar a minute. I'm sorry but their catering the to ultra elite at that cost and the computer inefficient. Ripoff A very small percentage of cable users currently exceed this 50GB cap.
»bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/0···-limits/
If you do, you are a problem, and you need to pay more or switch to a different service that is more lenient and capable of handling that type of load.
I have 3 people that share one 16/2 (plus PowerBoost) connection where I live. I do all of the things you listed, with the exception of P2P. I also constantly stream music, watch way too many videos, download Xbox 360 and PS3 movies/shows/games, and use Skype VOIP several hours (20+) each week. My logs show that I have never exceeded 50GB in one month. The closest I ever came was the month I downloaded a ton of texture/scenery files for Flight Sim X.
Tools must be made available for each customer to accurately track their monthly usage. Also, the limits may need to be increased as the average bandwidth usage increases. If too many people start breaching the cap limit, they should consider increasing the limits or upgrading their network.
What they are trying to prevent is people signing up for this service and maxing out the network all day long. Being a cable company, they probably want to prevent people for downloading a bunch of HD movies and shows that would otherwise compete with their own product. I think what they are offering is reasonable to a large percentage of their demographical customer base.
There is a method behind the madness. | |
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| | acrufox
join:2004-07-14
Canada
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps -If you do, you are a problem, and you need to pay more or switch to a different service that is more lenient and capable of handling that type of load...
This is Canada, switching to a different service, isn't exactly an option when almost all of them now have ridiculously low caps etc..So you're a user that does more than 50GB, if Bell has it's way that will never happen. If you're lucky enough to get an ISP like techsavvy then you still have to deal with bandwidth throttling as they still are tethered to Bell :S | |
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MisawaGQ
Divi Filius
Premium
join:2002-12-19
Mississauga
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | Must be rough living 8 years in the past. You did make me laugh with your assertion that all of that activity comes out to 50 gigs a month though. But maybe you meant gigabits - if so, my mistake.
It must be easy for an ISP to offer 20mbps connections if they mark up bandwidth prices by 10000%.
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps said by Millenniumle :» www.videotron.com/services/Index···ndex.jspThe cap is reached in ~136 minutes of use (50GB cap @ 50Mbps). At an advertised price of $80.00/month it's ~$0.58/minute under the cap. Cell phones are startin' to look cheap. Edit: There are 720 hours in a thirty day month of which the cap allows about 2.25 hours of use. The interesting thing is with my calculator set to round to the nearest 100th, the division to get the percentage of use alotted resulted in 0.00. I figure there really isn't any need to change my calculator settings. The reading as it is says it all. And right now I have just over 7 hours to reach 50GB with my 16/2 connection using similar calculations. I am on my computer most of the day. I will probably be online over 20 hours total between now and Monday morning. Unless I drastically change my internet behavior, I don't expect to reach even 30GB in 30 days. And the statistics suggest that I am in a vast majority.
Now, please don't get me wrong, I completely understand what many are complaining about, and we will just have to see if this business model will hold up. Personally, I think the caps are set too low, especially when one considers the incentive to even have a connection this fast. It's like having a Bugatti Varyon with just enough gas to get to the grocery store and back, with any additional fuel sold at $1000 per gallon. And while most people might only need to make a trip to the grocery store; with a cool, fast car like the Varyon, some might think about taking it for a spin and seeing what it can do.
It's all really just marketing BS to make ridiculous claims that their service is just as fast as real, honest FTTH. Just like my Nissan Sentra is just as fast as the aforementioned Varyon, from the top of the Grand Canyon to the bottom, in the spirit of "Thelma & Louise". | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
4 edits | Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps There has to be at least some potential for real harm from this system, though I admit I haven't yet read of any horror stories. Maybe a new P2P user doesn't realize the bandwidth nature of the program he just installed. I don't know 'typical' software & hardware well enough, but perhaps even a corruption in one of them could lead to massive bandwidth consumption - probably a stretch though.
In any case, with the potential to rack up $5,000 in charges in just a week they should certianly expect some profitable returns. Multi-hundred dollar ISP bills will become as common as multi-hundred dollar cellular bills. Inescapable, really, with the way the caps rapidly drop and per byte fees rapidly rise with lower speed tiers. The intention to have the caps breached is apparent.
It just occurred to me the 0.00 result sure puts to shame the idea that those who would use more than those caps are 'bandwidth hogs.' I got a real chuckle when 0.00 came up. Quite a perspective. | |
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pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| Thanks for telling me that my usage is over the top, and that i should be paying more even though i'm at the highest level of my internet. I'd be happy if the prices got higher just so ignorant people like you could be wiped off the web.
Since when do other people get to tell other's what is normal and what isn't? While there is limit's of things like food, good, etc, which prices are going up giving people reasons to limit it, bandwith is so cheap doing such a thing isn't rational.
I'm paying 130 a month for dedicated server at softlayer.com for 2 TB of bandwith a month with .10 cents a gig overage. If these ripoff companies offered that i'm sure the high users would just upgrade but here's the thing they don't and never will because they want to push their video on demand crap services rather then give user's choice. User's like you at the base of ignoracy are the one's that will actually allow such unforgivable actions to go through. That is why i'd be glad if people like you weren't given a chance to be on the web to spread such anti-consumerist opinions.
Didn't mean to sound harsh but too many people like this on here as of late. Drives me nuts. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps said by pspcrazy :Thanks for telling me that my usage is over the top, and that i should be paying more even though i'm at the highest level of my internet. I'd be happy if the prices got higher just so ignorant people like you could be wiped off the web. Since when do other people get to tell other's what is normal and what isn't? While there is limit's of things like food, good, etc, which prices are going up giving people reasons to limit it, bandwith is so cheap doing such a thing isn't rational. I'm paying 130 a month for dedicated server at softlayer.com for 2 TB of bandwith a month with .10 cents a gig overage. If these ripoff companies offered that i'm sure the high users would just upgrade but here's the thing they don't and never will because they want to push their video on demand crap services rather then give user's choice. User's like you at the base of ignoracy are the one's that will actually allow such unforgivable actions to go through. That is why i'd be glad if people like you weren't given a chance to be on the web to spread such anti-consumerist opinions. Didn't mean to sound harsh but too many people like this on here as of late. Drives me nuts. I apologize for offending you. That was not my intention, honest.
The money you spend on your datacenter has little to do with your internet connection. It is not unlike any other business that needs to move a product into the hands of their customers.
Think of it like a train.
Your ISP wants to use their train to move 100 people across the country for $10 each. 99 people only have one small carry-on bag, and there is more than enough room for those bags and people. Now all of your stuff takes up 90% of the space. With you on the train, along with all of your stuff, there is only room for 10 other passengers. Everyone else will have to wait for the next train. So there are a bunch of mad people that just want to get from point a to point b and now they are forced to wait. You say, "Hey, I paid my $10 for a ticket, too bad fools." The train company simply wants to charge passengers, such as yourself, an amount that would cover the cost of lost riders with only one small bag.
You pay a lot of money for a datacenter that has a ton of space and plenty of entryways. Great, but you still have to get your product to this warehouse. The train that will get you there is your ISP. You pay the same as everyone else, but you and all of your stuff crowds the train to the point where only a small number of other passengers can come along for the ride.
In this scenario, you are the problem. | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps said by jmn1207 :The money you spend on your datacenter has little to do with your internet connection. Except that it shows the rather phenomenal difference in retail price for bandwidth being pushed. | |
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pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| While I do see your point I still don't believe that overage charges should apply. If they honestly dislike the user's overusing their goods their should be a CAP literally rather then a fake money making cap to make them a lot more money. Because they are arguing about capacity here rather then someone taking more space then others. As long as they pay more to these piggy banks they have then they will be happy.
The money I spent for my datacenter is the same if not better bandwidth that these people give their customers. At least my 2TB a month is guaranteed. And if I want more heck I pay either 100 dollars for 1 more TB or 10 cents a gb overage. That's reasonable this isn't. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps said by pspcrazy :While I do see your point I still don't believe that overage charges should apply. If they honestly dislike the user's overusing their goods their should be a CAP literally rather then a fake money making cap to make them a lot more money. Because they are arguing about capacity here rather then someone taking more space then others. As long as they pay more to these piggy banks they have then they will be happy. The money I spent for my datacenter is the same if not better bandwidth that these people give their customers. At least my 2TB a month is guaranteed. And if I want more heck I pay either 100 dollars for 1 more TB or 10 cents a gb overage. That's reasonable this isn't. Sounds very reasonable, especially when compared to Videotron's "deal".
I think the best way for ISP's to handle possible abuse and congestion issues is to throttle the bandwidth of heavy users for any sustained download or upload that might be impacting overall service. I'm sure it would be an enormous technical challenge to implement, but this way nobody has their connection completely dropped, huge fees will never need to be tacked on, and it would generally keep things moving. Comcast and Time Warner already increase bandwidth temporarily with their PowerBoost service. They just need to figure out a way to reverse this when the network gets clogged. For example, everyone could upload at max speed up to about 20MB, at which point the speed could be reduced by 75% or so, but only if congestion was high.
I think you are right when you suggest it is about money. It does seem like a stupid plan to try and extract as much money as possible from their customers. I think it may have been a bit too ambitious. I can't see this policy staying in effect for too long. | |
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pspcrazy
Anime Freak
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: At 50 cents/minute with the caps At the end it depends on whether people fight against it, you bet when TWC does it's cappage i'll be dropping off their network entirely. I currently have 2 cable turbo subscriptions + 1 dsl extreme 6 mb one which are load balanced via a server, back to me. I'm paying more then enough, and if 60 a month isn't enough per line then twc can take my service and dump it. | |
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HX
@mfcns.com
| wake up .... Average user can easily go over 50GB a month, if you think of all the services that are or will be available in near future setting a cap on HSI including fiber is ludicrous.
Not everyone is a hog and downloads full HD movies and TBs of MP3s, but we are getting close to times that everything will be shared using internet. To mention few IPTV and VOD, VoIP, Streaming Video even stupid e-mail consumes bandwidth. Putting any type of limitation on that is just plain dumb.
I just hope that our ISPs will wake up in time to realize this.
My 2c | |
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suomi
join:2008-07-26
Terrebonne, QC
| you got it wrong you have a limit of 50 gig with 1,50 per additional gig but with a maximum of 20 or 25 $ of surcharge per month. My brother in law have this and he always breaks his limit like crazy so that downloading 65 gig or 350 gig in a month is the same cost... | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| Re: you got it wrong »www.videotron.com/services/en/in···tion.jsp
The usage of bandwidth exceeding the defined limits will be billed at $1.50 per additional gigabyte used, without a monthly billing limit. You can see where there stands to be a problem.
There lower tiers do in fact have billing caps ($50), but are charged at the happy rate of $7.95/GB above a generous 2 GB cap. | |
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Videotron Goes 'Fiber Deep'
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