 
andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | Wrong info? The article I read said that the address was givin but the operator couldn't understand the caller so just used the billing address. | |
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knightmb
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
 ·Comcast
 ·Vonage
 ·Speakeasy
| Re: Wrong info? said by TK Junk Mail  :said by andyb :The article I read said that the address was givin but the operator couldn't understand the caller so just used the billing address. Here is a current link to the story that said the VOIP provider had the current address but it wasn't in the 911 database they keep: » www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···voip0503 Very unfortunate indeed. Without more info it's hard to say, as all of the news stories I read are reporting slightly different information that doesn't seem to be consistent.
A media circus I'm certain, but I guess if I reported my story of when VoIP saved a neighbors life when their land line failed that wouldn't make as much news.  | |
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RR Conductor
'Boarrrd
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Wrong info? said by kenn10 :Where are all the liberals complaining that the government needs to intervene? Maybe we need to implant chips in the heads of people to make sure they know where they are and remind them to update their 911 locations when they move. A bad 911 database with the VOIP provider resulted in incorrect response to an old address. That was the responsibility of the subscriber. Everyone wants to save a buck woth VOIP but take no personal responsibility for their own actions. Ho hum.... When a lack of truth and actual solutions evade them, they always pull the L word out.
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»www.aslrra.org/home/index.cfm | |
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| | | | | cyclone_z
join:2006-06-19
Ames, IA
·Qwest.net
edit:
May 4th, @01:59AM
| Re: Wrong info? said by RR Conductor :said by kenn10 :Where are all the liberals complaining that the government needs to intervene? Maybe we need to implant chips in the heads of people to make sure they know where they are and remind them to update their 911 locations when they move. A bad 911 database with the VOIP provider resulted in incorrect response to an old address. That was the responsibility of the subscriber. Everyone wants to save a buck woth VOIP but take no personal responsibility for their own actions. Ho hum.... When a lack of truth and actual solutions evade them, they always pull the L word out. Please take note, Mr. Conductor: in the minds of some, calling someone a liberal IS a solution!
I guess that the government is supposed to protect us by data mining all our phone calls without judicial oversight, but making sure the calls connect when we dial emergency services is not protecting us, it's over-regulation.
I think too much regulation can be bad, but making sure emergency services are available just seems like a no-brainer.
Either way, I'll take Qwest copper and not have to worry. | |
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| | | crapmac
LIVE 105 - new - music - now.
join:2007-05-03
United State
·Comcast
| said by knightmb :Very unfortunate indeed. Without more info it's hard to say, as all of the news stories I read are reporting slightly different information that doesn't seem to be consistent. A media circus I'm certain, but I guess if I reported my story of when VoIP saved a neighbors life when their land line failed that wouldn't make as much news. i've never actually heard of a landline failing. I think that before VoIP should be used widespread - i guess it already is -, the companies that developed the technology need to establish safety measures that have to be taken before service is established at a given address (like a correct address for the customer, and a verification by either the VoIP provider or the ISP that the internet service that the telephone call will go over is working in the best possible condition - without any hiccups).
It's very unfortunate that the VoIP call disconnected, leaving the emergency responders to whatever information they had on-hand. It's upsetting to know that a minor glitch in a new phone technology can have terrible consequences if not fixed.
The poor family - that's definitely the worst consequence i can think of when i see so many people in the forums complaining of their disconnecting VoIP service. I just feel so bad for them - they didn't do anything to cause this, and neither did the Canadian emergency center or the emergency responders. It was just a tiny hiccup in the system. | |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
·VoiceEclipse
edit:
May 3rd, @09:53PM
| Re: Wrong info? said by crapmac :said by knightmb :Very unfortunate indeed. Without more info it's hard to say, as all of the news stories I read are reporting slightly different information that doesn't seem to be consistent. A media circus I'm certain, but I guess if I reported my story of when VoIP saved a neighbors life when their land line failed that wouldn't make as much news. i've never actually heard of a landline failing. I think that before VoIP should be used widespread - i guess it already is -, the companies that developed the technology need to establish safety measures that have to be taken before service is established at a given address (like a correct address for the customer, and a verification by either the VoIP provider or the ISP that the internet service that the telephone call will go over is working in the best possible condition - without any hiccups). It's very unfortunate that the VoIP call disconnected, leaving the emergency responders to whatever information they had on-hand. It's upsetting to know that a minor glitch in a new phone technology can have terrible consequences if not fixed. The poor family - that's definitely the worst consequence i can think of when i see so many people in the forums complaining of their disconnecting VoIP service. I just feel so bad for them - they didn't do anything to cause this, and neither did the Canadian emergency center or the emergency responders. It was just a tiny hiccup in the system. Right.. VOIP? They are lucky they even got a DT. What a sad case indeed and all this just to save a few dollars on POTS  .
To the guy about the L/L failing and VoIP saving a life. I had a 1 week failure of POTS due to the cable guy hooking up my service pulled my drop right out of the cable splice. AT&T forwarded my number to my cell till it was fixed (1 week due to the below zero temps and a tree had to get trimmed before they could fix the splice). POTS isn't idiot proof, but after having POTS for 25 years and having 1 week of outage due to some moron for that ENTIRE time, then, after having VoIP from 2 providers for 18 months and having more then 4 weeks of total outages, not included in that are the times I had inbound only, echo, static (where I had to hang up and try again) and at least 5 times of E911 (much less 911) showing the incorrect address("VoIP caller"), saving the 20 bucks a month just wasn't worth the life's of my 3 kids. I tested my 911 calls every month when I got the bill. We we do call through testing for wireless upgrades, we test 911/E911 every single time so I'm accustom to testing with 911 ops. Working for a large telco who provides backbone for a cable company.. just knowing what I know behind the scenes, I'll put my life and trust in a POTS line any day over VoIP. Nuff said. | |
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| | | | | cyclone_z
join:2006-06-19
Ames, IA
·Qwest.net
| Re: Wrong info? said by tc1uscg :Right.. VOIP? They are lucky they even got a DT. What a sad case indeed and all this just to save a few dollars on POTS . POTS isn't idiot proof, but after having POTS for 25 years and having 1 week of outage due to some moron for that ENTIRE time, then, after having VoIP from 2 providers for 18 months and having more then 4 weeks of total outages, I've had a similar experience with POTS. Over a period of almost 20 years, I don't remember the POTS service at my parents' house failing even once. Last spring it failed. It would have been repaired the next day, but no one was going to be home and Qwest didn't want to send a tech out without access to the NID, which is inside the house. Turns out they didn't even have to come to the house; the problem was down the road.
Also last year there was a major ice storm that knocked out power for a couple of days to a good size area, including some cell sites. I don't know if if cell service worked or not but POTS sure did. The entire time, the Qwest line continued to work. The CO even lost power, but they have backup batteries and generators.
Even though Verizon Wireless service is very reliable, there is the occasion where the service or the handset goes a little flaky and doesn't complete a call right away; I've even got an "all circuits busy" message once. I've decided that I really should get some copper hooked up. It's worth it.
If anybody thinks that copper POTS is too expensive, at least with Qwest you can get metered local service, where you can receive any number of calls, but outgoing calls are charged on a per-call basis (vs. unlimited local calling). I think the service is about $8 or $9 per month. So for about $100 per year, a person can have the ability to call 911 with the 99.99% reliability that comes with copper POTS service. In my mind, $100 for that kind of reliability would look cheap should an emergency arise. | |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Hewitt, NJ
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| Re: Wrong info? ..."The call centre did dispatch emergency vehicles, but they dispatched them in Mississauga," said Alison George, a spokeswoman for Comwave, a Canada-based voice-over-Internet protocol (VOIP) phone company. "They did not have this Calgary-based address."...
It's up to VOIP customers to ensure the company has up-to-date contact information, George said.
The Luck family moved to Calgary two years ago.
»www.canada.com/topics/news/natio···&k=46053
The parents never bothered to update the 911 info with their VoIP provider after they moved.
This child did not die because "Voip biggest fears realized!", he died because the parents didn't update their 911 info. Not the VoIP providers fault.
--
11,022 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11~~TEAM DISCOVERY
Can't feel you anymore, don't need you anymore, don't believe you anymore, I don't need you anymore
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
edit:
May 3rd, @12:46PM
| Re: Wrong info? said by La Luna :The parents never bothered to update the 911 info with their VoIP provider after they moved. This child did not die because "Voip biggest fears realized!", he died because the parents didn't update their 911 info. Not the VoIP providers fault. According to this, the VOIP provider had the correct address at the time of the incident:
»www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···voip0503
An invoice dated March 30, 2008 has the Lucks' current residence listed.
Comwave officials could not be reached Friday night for comment on the invoices. --
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Re: Wrong info? Just because the billing address is correct, does not mean that the 911 address is correct. Hell, I could give my mother a IP phone, and have the bill come here. Does that mean that they will have the 911 where the phone is at all times? No. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
edit:
May 3rd, @12:50PM
| Re: Wrong info? said by Greg_Z :Just because the billing address is correct, does not mean that the 911 address is correct. Hell, I could give my mother a IP phone, and have the bill come here. Does that mean that they will have the 911 where the phone is at all times? No. The VOIP provider CLAIMED they use the billing address when they don't have a registered 911 address in their database. But, they used an old billing address. They are still on the hook. Also, the caller claimed they gave the correct address when they made the call as well.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Re: Wrong info? Sorry, but 35 sec's is not enough to provide correct info. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| Re: Wrong info? said by Greg_Z :Sorry, but 35 sec's is not enough to provide correct info. It is my impression that a hang-up to a 911 call triggers a call-back to that number by the 911 Center. Why did they NOT try to at least call the customer back when the call was disconnected? | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Re: Wrong info? You are talking about Canada. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| Re: Wrong info? said by Greg_Z :You are talking about Canada. What does it being Canada (as opposed I assume to the US) have to do with attempting to call back to get/confirm the information? If the call was terminated as was stated, I'd assume that the attempt to reconnect (by the 911 Operator calling back) would seem to be a good response.
There is also the question of WHY the VoIP Company's System did not reconfirm the 911 Location information at the time of the Billing Address Change request. It seems to me that if both addresses were the same, that a change in one (especially the Billing Address) would seem to be reason to ASK if the 911 Location Address was to be left as was or kept synchronized with the Billing Address. Failure to make this OBVIOUS check is in my opinion, a sign of poor design of the customer support system. | |
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| | | | | | brandpc
join:2003-08-25
Canton, CT | Its possible there WAS a 911 address on file -- just the old address.
The family had updated the billing address but never the 911 address. Therefore, old 911 address was on file, new billing address was on file, problem occured. | |
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| | | | | | BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by TK Junk Mail :said by Greg_Z :Just because the billing address is correct, does not mean that the 911 address is correct. Hell, I could give my mother a IP phone, and have the bill come here. Does that mean that they will have the 911 where the phone is at all times? No. The VOIP provider CLAIMED they use the billing address when they don't have a registered 911 address in their database. But, they used an old billing address. They are still on the hook. Also, the caller claimed they gave the correct address when they made the call as well. If the parents had taken the 1 mintue it would have taken to update the 911 address the emergency people would have goten there FACT. The bottom line it's their fault. Everyone knows or SHOULD know that you MUST update the 911 adress YOURSELF. This is common knowledge type stuff. | |
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| | | alexintexas
join:2003-01-11
San Antonio, TX
clubs: | so now the parents should and need to be charged with negligence!!!! | |
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| | | firebird
join:2002-03-22
Moline, IL | Since when do you have "update your 911" info?? That provider sure knows where to send your bill. I don't have to update my 911 info for my landline! | |
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Jmartz
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ
| said by andyb :The article I read said that the address was givin but the operator couldn't understand the caller so just used the billing address. So why can't VOIP providers require that the actual service address be listed on the account for 911 purposes? Customers should be told not to move the device outside of the place it's registered. If they do, they do it at their own risk. | |
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nklb
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Ypsilanti, MI
clubs:
| Re: Time for built in GPS chips? said by NY Tel :I dunno.....how else to get around this. If cell phones can do it, they may have to require all new Terminal adapters have these chips in them. This will not be done without tremendous cost as well as all of those millions of adapters now communicating with the satellites. Someone's gonna pay. GPS chips probably wouldn't do any good in most situations, because they require line-of-sight to the sky. Yes, sometimes you can get a signal indoors, but not reliably.
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for all your Linux questions | |
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| | NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Time for built in GPS chips? said by nklb :said by NY Tel :I dunno.....how else to get around this. If cell phones can do it, they may have to require all new Terminal adapters have these chips in them. This will not be done without tremendous cost as well as all of those millions of adapters now communicating with the satellites. Someone's gonna pay. GPS chips probably wouldn't do any good in most situations, because they require line-of-sight to the sky. Yes, sometimes you can get a signal indoors, but not reliably. I know, that's why I said "I dunno"....lol
My home and adapter is near a window so I can usually hit a few satellites on a good day.  | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Re: Time for built in GPS chips? Not everyone is going to have the adapter near a window. And, my house is near a window also. It is called looking outside. | |
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| | | | NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Time for built in GPS chips? said by Greg_Z :Not everyone is going to have the adapter near a window. And, my house is near a window also. It is called looking outside. I can see it now. Terminal adapters in Zip-Lock Bags next to the satellite dish (if you have one).
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| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Have a separate GPS receiver sitting near a window, and have it backhaul wirelessly to the terminal adapter over 2.4ghz and be done with it.
Another solution would be to make it a felony to not put "this phone does not do 911" stickers on the handset, or recycle manslaughter laws if someone dies b/c there was a no 911 VOIP phone. If your facing 10 years, you will sticker your phones. | |
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NetFixer
Snarl for the camera please
Premium
join:2004-06-24
Murfreesboro, TN
·Vonage
 ·Cingular Wireless
·AT&T CallVantage
·AT&T Southeast
·Comcast
·Covad Communications
edit:
May 3rd, @11:34AM
| said by NY Tel :I dunno.....how else to get around this. If cell phones can do it, they may have to require all new Terminal adapters have these chips in them. This will not be done without tremendous cost as well as all of those millions of adapters now communicating with the satellites. Someone's gonna pay. Actually, AT&T CallVantage has a way to ensure that a VoIP ATA is not moved to a different location without updating the 911 database. Anytime the ATA reboots or loses its internet connection, the caller is prompted to verify that the phone is still at the registered 911 location and to provide the current location if not. Of course, the caller can lie, but you can't keep someone from intentionally shooting their own foot.
Also, not all cell phones use GPS. None of the AT&T/Cingular GSM phones I have used have GPS (and therefore do not have E-911 capabilities). For some reason however, the FCC, Congress, and the press seem to prefer to pick on VoIP providers and ignore that cell phone providers don't always have E-911 capability. Another factor is that many communities also don't have E-911 call centers (or access to E-911 is limited to only the ILEC).
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.
Test your firewall. | |
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| BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by NY Tel :I dunno.....how else to get around this. If cell phones can do it, they may have to require all new Terminal adapters have these chips in them. This will not be done without tremendous cost as well as all of those millions of adapters now communicating with the satellites. Someone's gonna pay. One again if people would update their 911 info when they move 99% of these issues would go away. This is like me buying a car and forgetting to change the oil in it and then blaming the car manufacturer when my engine blows up. | |
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davebc
join:2007-07-27
Langley, BC
edit:
May 3rd, @12:19PM
| Wrong address The VoIP provider had been sending their bills to the correct address in Calgary, but their location database for 911 had their old Toronto address. An abulance was first sent to thier previous residence in Toronto.
It wasn't until the neighbour called 911 again for them 30 minutes later that an ambulance came.
We have VoIP and 2 small kids. My wife and I have discussed that if we needed to call 911 we'd use a cell phone before the VoIP phone. As far as I'd heard in this case the child's aunt was watching him. We're goin to put an old cellphone beside the phone now for 911. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: Wrong address Cellphones don't have a great 911 record either.
Just make sure people know where they are at, so they can give the exact correct address to the 911 operator rather then hoping the operator can lookup the phone number's address. | |
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Bobcat
Verizon blows, Cablevision sucks
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Wrong address said by KrK :Just make sure people know where they are at, so they can give the exact correct address to the 911 operator rather then hoping the operator can lookup the phone number's address. Our local fire department recommends that if you have a babysitter that you post your street address near your telephone. The reason is that the E911 system doesn't always work, and a young babysitter will almost always be in a panic and give out their home address by mistake instead of your home address. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| said by davebc :The VoIP provider had been sending their bills to the correct address in Calgary, but their location database for 911 had their old Toronto address. An abulance was first sent to thier previous residence in Toronto. Why when the billing address was changed, did the system not pop up a window saying "Your 911 Location and Billing Location were both X. Do you want your 911 Location updated to your new Billing Location?" to insure that the customer is reminded to update the 911 location (and do the update for a YES reply)?
If the update is done non-online, then send a Snailmail letter to the new billing address (if the 911 was not updated at the same time) and warn of the difference and ask if it should be changed. Also put a mismatch warning on the mailed printed bill or the online billing screen until the mismatch is approved by the customer. | |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Let's blame the other guy Only people to blame are the users, not the Industry. So, again why is this news?
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I threw out the map a long time ago. Now I follow my own direction! | |
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playboy2000
join:2005-05-30
Calgary, AB
| Whats wrong with tracert? As an initial step to prevent such problems, a quick trace route would have immediately cued in the 911 operator that cg.shawcable.net or CLGAB****.bb.telus.net (etc) probably isn't in Toronto 
I was going to say that ISPs should give VOIP operators access to customer records (ie IP = street address)... but that has mismanagement and abuse written all over it (RIAA, spam etc) not to mention the fact that shaw and telus both compete with VOIP providers. | |
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| battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | Re: Whats wrong with tracert? There isn't any way for the 911 operator to see the IP address of the caller unless they are doing an IP to IP phone call. Even at that whois is not in any way a reliable way to figure out where the person is. | |
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nipseyrussel
Nipsey Russell, yo
join:2002-02-22
Philadelphia, PA
| eh consumer voip has been around for what 5 years? in that time one death based on a mistake? how many land line 911 screw ups have lead to deaths in that time? hope one statistical anomaly doesnt set back an industry. the worls is an inherently dangerous place | |
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Rtp
@mycingular.net | voip thats why i hang on to the landline.. I can't risk my life with new technology that is not reliable | |
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wizunwired
Premium
join:2008-04-08
Algoma, WI | Why wait The thing I can't figure is why would you wait 40 minutes for an ambulance?? Is that a normal turn around time in Canada. I would have jumped in the car and headed to the hospital/EMT location. | |
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diskdruid
join:2002-09-08
Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, QC
·Videotron
| question about this Im in Quebec on a Videotron VOIP, when I dial 911, it's to the real 911 in my city, not to a callcenter at my ISP, my question is this: why does this 911 call that is described and discussed here went to the VOIP call center and not to the right 911?
Can someone explain this to me please, I"m simply curious.
TIA | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Maybe it was Bell's traffic shaping hosing their VOIP... ....
Sad case.
Why was the call cut off? | |
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VoIP Blamed in Death of Canadian Child
Time for built in GPS chips?