Vonage Bumps into RegulatorsDebate rages over 911 accountability ( old news - 01:00PM Thursday Aug 21 2003) tags: legal · VoIPThe push to regulate VoIP technology is raising more than its fair share of questions, many of which remain unanswered. Jeff Pulver, co-founder of Vonage and Free World Dial-Up (see our interview), stops by our VoIP forum to ask, "With regard to 911 requirements, if the service provider is not also the access provider, how can that company be responsible for a 911 solution at all times?" Since VoIP technology relies on providers and services that exist well outside their sphere of influence, if outages occur, how can VoIP providers be held accountable for failing to provide 911 service? There's a push to force VoIP providers into the role of telcos, adhering to the same guidelines; even though the providers are technically world's apart from their copper-based brethren. The Minnesota Department of Commerce, unimpressed with Vonage's E-911 service, recently recommended to the state PUC that the company not be allowed to operate in Minnesota. As a result, the PUC this week warned Vonage that the company is not licensed to operate as a phone company, and has given them 30 days to file a proper phone company application and a 911 emergency phone plan. Vonage execs argue that the company is not a phone company, but a data "information service", which would mean state regulators would have no authority over the company's operations. The Vonage website however very clearly pitches itself as the "broadband phone company". It's a difficult argument. On the one hand, Vonage has no facilities in Minnesota, and some argue regulating the technology would be akin to regulating ham radio operators. Others wonder; as more users flood to the technology, who ensures that the company's 911 service works? Who holds Vonage accountable if a state's customer's receive low quality service? If users are ditching their landlines for the service, and Vonage 911 is their only means of calling for help.....you see where the debate leads. Draft new guidelines for VoIP providers? A state to state disclaimer warning customers they are essentially "on their own"? How long before the telcos, long standing opponents of regulation, ironically begin asking for more VoIP providers to be regulated? You can expect the issue to shift nationally very quickly as VoIP's popularity surges (check out Pulver's essay on this issue for further background).
Related:- Verizon Can't Use Number Ports To Win Back Landline Customers
- Tuesday Evening Links
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Dallas FBI Raid About VoIP Scam, Not Wolverine
- Google Voice Ban Is Clear Network Neutrality Violation
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
- Vonage Settles Over Annoying Cancellation Tactics
|
 
ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana | I smell the RBOC's here Really, who would expect a broadband based (AC powered) home system to conform to E911 standards? VoIP is a "second-line" solution -- best used by those who also have cell phones. Only regulators would be stupid enough to not work-with VoIP. | |
|  | clecrupt9
join:2002-01-22
GA
| Re: I smell the RBOC's here I am leaning more to there being some kind of motive because from what I understand carriers are given up to 9 months to comply with State 911 services. Why was Vonage only given 30 days?
As far as AC powered 911, Vonage itself calls its emergency service 911. When someone tells me they offer 911, I do not understand all the technical aspects of where and when the service could fail. Vonage may have opened the 911 can of worms on itself. | |
| | | 
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: I smell the RBOC's here I agree, both by selling the service as a type of "phone service" and by selling the other as a 911 service they are digging their own grave. They should call it a phone service alternative and call the E911 service E-Emergency line or something.
--
"Knowhutimean, Vern?" - Ernest P. Worrell »www.maxolasersquad.com | |
| | | | | | 
DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| I agree VoIP as "secondary line" phone service is except from 911 requirements. They should make clear that their 911 service is "best effort" service (aka Cell Phone E911 services) and might not be available all the time.
Perhaps they should not have called it 911 but with some other number but 911 is the easiest number remembered during emergencies that would be worse. The least you want at the emergency is looking up a number which your equipment is functioning perfectly and ready to deliver the call. | |
| | | | 
Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
 ·PenTeleData
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage
| Re: I smell the RBOC's here said by DrTCP  :
I agree VoIP as "secondary line" phone service is except from 911 requirements. They should make clear that their 911 service is "best effort" service (aka Cell Phone E911 services) and might not be available all the time.
But they do make it clear:
"How is this different from dialing 911 on a regular land line?
Vonage routes your call to the Public Service Answering Point (PSAP) providing emergency services in your area. The appropriate PSAP is determined by the physical address you supplied. Therefore, if we do not have the correct address your call cannot be routed to the corresponding PSAP for your area. Another difference between Vonage's dialing 911 service and traditional 911 services is that the Vonage call will be routed to PSAP's general access line, which is different from the 911 Emergency Response Center. You will need to state the nature of your emergency promptly and clearly, including your location and telephone number, as PSAP personnel will not have this information at hand. PSAP personnel can help you effectively and will take necessary steps to provide you with the appropriate assistance, such as dispatching police, an ambulance and/or a fire truck.
Behind the scenes, the call will go to your local emergency response access points immediately if you have provided your address. If you have not given your address, you won't be able to dial 911 at all.
Why do I have to give you my physical address?
Remember that unlike traditional phone lines, Vonage service is portable to any location with broadband Internet access. For example, you can have a New York number and receive calls in Texas. Notifying us of your physical address is the only way to locate the appropriate Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) serving your area. " | |
| | | | | clecrupt9
join:2002-01-22
GA
| Re: I smell the RBOC's here said by Eat Me :
Another difference between Vonage's dialing 911 service and traditional 911 services is that the Vonage call will be routed to PSAP's general access line, which is different from the 911 Emergency Response Center. "
And this may not be the way the center or the State wants to have 911 happen. It would be really nice to hear from center directors on weather this type of 911 is more of a burden on them. Some centers have high response times already. | |
| | | | clecrupt9
join:2002-01-22
GA
| said by DrTCP :
Perhaps they should not have called it 911 but with some other number but 911 is the easiest number remembered during emergencies that would be worse. The least you want at the emergency is looking up a number which your equipment is functioning perfectly and ready to deliver the call.
Kind of a no win situation isnt it?
One the one hand at least they are doing something, on the other they could really get burned by the regulators, or a massive law suit. The latter is important because Vonage isnt a telecommunications company, and may no be exempt from certain protection. There is no 9-1-1 tariff from Vonage, so who knows how a judge or jury would see the company.
| |
| | | 
imagine_that
@attbi.com | no matter, when providing a dial tone one must provide the 911 emergency service to that number, in its locale. | |
| | | | clecrupt9
join:2002-01-22
GA
| Re: I smell the RBOC's here said by imagine_that:
no matter, when providing a dial tone one must provide the 911 emergency service to that number, in its locale.
The numbers Vonage uses arent the numbers the center may be expecting people who have dialed 911 to come in on. | |
| | DSLrgm
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-22
Oak Park, MI
| My cell phone did not work during the great power outage, no power at the local tower.
My analog circuit did work. Power at the local CO was powering my simple analog phone.
I have a friend that supported MIT's ISDN phone system (don't know it they still have that, this was 6 years ago). They had plain analog phones around campus for emergencies if they lost power. And they did. | |
|
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| If you are ditching If you are ditching your POTS service for a an online style telephone service that's quality depends on the quality of your ISP then you are asking for trouble. POTS runs even when your lights are out. With VOIP you would have to have two seperate ISPS (like DSL and Cable) and a power backup like a generator or at the least a UPS to ensure phone service during outtages or disasters. VOIP is not a telephone service, should not be sold as a telephone service, and should not replace telephone service, unless the technology and the stability of a residential ISP becomes exponentialy better.
--
"Knowhutimean, Vern?" - Ernest P. Worrell »www.maxolasersquad.com | |
| | | | | lvas
join:2001-05-17
Glen Carbon, IL
| Re: If you are ditching yea but the only reason the local RBOC can offer the FLat rate pots at $16 a month is they sell a ton of loaded Local phone services. If everyone switchs to Vonage for there "real phone traffic" then the RBOCs will go under and who will own/maintain those data lines? | |
| | | |
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: If you are ditching That's very true, but it's also an entirely different topic. And seeings how we are both argueing that you shouldn't ditch your POTS line no matter what. And if you care for those extra features you won't be using VOIP anyhow. Also if you're VOIP runs over DSL then there's one extra feature. VOIP for right now is neat but it's definitely not at a stage to replace POTS.
--
"Knowhutimean, Vern?" - Ernest P. Worrell »www.maxolasersquad.com | |
| | | | |
Biagra
@aol.com | Re: If you are ditching Until this company becomes independant and provides their own ISP service (dedicated solely for the use of making phone calls), connections, boxes etc... (like a POTS service) I will not bother to sign up. | |
| | | | | | | 
Bobcat
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: If you are ditching In the last four months, my internet connection (Optimum Online) has gone out at least four times, while my phone has been 100% reliable. My Optimum Online does not work during a power outage, but my phone does.
Regarding cell phones, if you've ever called 911 on a cell phone, you'll know it's not very reliable, at least not in New Jersey.
With a POTS 911 call, the dispatcher has your exact street address. In my town, they always send a car out, even if the caller hangs up or says it's a mistake. That won't happen with a cell phone call.
I'll stick with a POTS phone for a whopping $16 per month (and I can still use a cell phone as a last resort).
--
"We know where they are."
» Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, March 30, 2003. | |
| | | | | 
PaulHikeS2
join:2003-03-06
Merrimack, NH
 ·Comcast
| Re: If you are ditching said by Bobcat :
In the last four months, my internet connection (Optimum Online) has gone out at least four times, while my phone has been 100% reliable
Unless it's alarmed somehow, it's not possible to know if your phone is 100% reliable unless you stand next to it 24 hours a day, and constantly pick it up to see if you have dial tone.
--
Jay: What the @#$% is the internet??? | |
| | | | | | | | | |
fair is fair
@rr.com
| Phone company built CHEAP from monopoly.
Anyway, two things should happen...
99.9999...% up time requirement MUST be reduced to 99.99 or so.
POOR rural area residents deserve INTERNET just as much as phone. So chage flat rate like 15% on anything... like phone, cable, isp, broadband, satelite, long, short. | |
| | | ASG9
join:2003-03-22
Big Easy | Isn't Bedminister where AT&T has administrative offices? Gotta figure there's major cable and infrastructure there. | |
| | | |
Bobcat
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: If you are ditching Yeah, AT&T has their long distance control center here. See - »www.att.com/network/gnoc.html
And Verizon Wireless has their headquarters and network operations center here. See - »www.verizonwireless.com/images_b···er_1.tif (7 MB TIF image)
But the cable company is Cablevision from Long Island. And, being from Lawn Guyland, they treat New Jersey like an unwanted stepchild.
--
"We know where they are."
» Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, March 30, 2003. | |
| | 
oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | When comparing Comcast to Verizon in my area, it was no contest. Verizon sucked. | |
| 
Dennis
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-26
Algonquin, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
Host:
Chicago
Users Find Hot Deals
Users find Hot Dea..
Requests for Hot D..
Home Repair & Impr..
| Great questions As a person who works for a Telco, i'm glad to see somebody finally asking these questions.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not against vonage, nor do I want them to get put out of business. But it's nice to see they can't get their cake and eat it too.
Let's see how much they complain when they have to deal with the same things we do in the telco world.
--
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. " --Henry David Thoreau | |
| | 
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Great questions said by Dennis :
Let's see how much they complain when they have to deal with the same things we do in the telco world.
I consider this to be a great development. The sooner that Vonage and other alternative phone providers implement things like 911 on the same level or service as a normal telegraph company, the sooner they will be taken seriously as a legitimate competitor in the telephone market.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
| | |
Dennis
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-26
Algonquin, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
Host:
Chicago
Users Find Hot Deals
Users find Hot Dea..
Requests for Hot D..
Home Repair & Impr..
| Re: Great questions said by pnh102 :
The sooner that Vonage and other alternative phone providers implement things like 911 on the same level or service as a normal telegraph company, the sooner they will be taken seriously as a legitimate competitor in the telephone market.
I agree, plus I am insanly curious as to how they will do this without incorporating a wireless solution or using copper.
hey, there's an idea. Don't all cellphones have access to the 911 service even if they are not activated? Time to break out the bag phone you mom still has and put it in a shiny new box.
--
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. " --Henry David Thoreau | |
| | | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Great questions said by Dennis :
Don't all cellphones have access to the 911 service even if they are not activated?
I believe they do. Is it possible to dial 911 on an inactive landline phone?
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
| | | | | | | | | | | CaptSternn
Sternn Heavy Industries
join:2002-05-24
Overland Park, KS | Re: Great questions The phone companies provide what I think is called "warm dial tone". You won't hear a the tone, but it is still connected for 911 calls. | |
| | | | | | 
Vericima
Beautiful But Deadly
Premium
join:2003-01-07
Manchester, CT
| Yeah but most of the time the phone line has dial tone even when the service has been turned off. You can even call 800 numbers. I've done it.
--
Say no to TCPA! Don't Know what that is? Find out Here. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
KeithM8
Zx6r Rider
join:2001-01-17
Broken Arrow, OK | warm dialtone... As there seems to be a shortage of viable copper pairs in many areas nowadays that may not be. Your pair may NOT go all the way back to the CO if you've disconnected your POTS. Your new neighbor may have it now. | |
| | | | | | | 
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Great questions "Warm line" works in some states, not in others. It may only work for some limited period of time on any given phone. (E.g., usually if there is a need for the circuit for another subscriber, the phone company can cut warm line off.)
Don't depend on it. As with many things, your mileage may vary.
Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | 
mdr5
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Somerset, NJ
| I think this is rediculous. I read people comments in here who are all in favor of this. The reason most of like Vonage or other VoiP providers so much is the cost and the fact that they are NOT regulated like a phone company, which they really are not.
If this continues, and they are forced to be a phone company, with the exception of better 911 service, nothing good will come out of it. My Verizon bill used to have FCC charges, line charges, etc out the wazoo to the tune of around $11 extra a month for NOTHING. I have backed down my Verizon plan to limited local only, and this is simply for emergency because I DO understand the limitations of VoiP in its present stage. So, that costs me $6.50, to just have a dial tone and limited local call, this will get me 911. BUT, I have to pay an FCC charge of over $6 for just this, as well as line charges and maintenance, I pay over $15 for a $6 service.
Those of you who think this is a good thing, do you really want to see this happen to VoiP? If it does, these is absolutely no benefit of having VoiP over a regular line. | |
| | | |
See 7 replies to this post | |
| cableblows3
join:2001-06-17
Indianapolis, IN
| said by Dennis :
As a person who works for a Telco, i'm glad to see somebody finally asking these questions.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not against vonage, nor do I want them to get put out of business. But it's nice to see they can't get their cake and eat it too.
Let's see how much they complain when they have to deal with the same things we do in the telco world.
So your saying telcos should be forced to provide 911 services to? Just the states way of saying HEY how can we charge for 911 enhanced services if they don't have it?
And it's kinda like the Hoosier dome here in Indy; it's a tax that never ever ever goes away.
P.S. and the colts still want more! GO AWAY IRSAY!!! | |
| | |
Dennis
Premium,Mod
join:2001-01-26
Algonquin, IL | Re: Great questions Telcos do get fined for any disturbance to the 911 system, and its access is regulated as manditory i believe. | |
| | | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| said by cableblows3 :
Just the states way of saying HEY how can we charge for 911 enhanced services if they don't have it?
And it's kinda like the Hoosier dome here in Indy; it's a tax that never ever ever goes away.
P.S. and the colts still want more! GO AWAY IRSAY!!!
The 911 fee goes directly to the agency operating the 911 center(s) to help cover the cost of the 911 system. When I say the 911 system, I'm talking about the system that makes it all work when you dial 911. The 911 system (while operated by the phone company) is an independant system in which all 911 centers are interconnected so that your call will always get to a 911 center, either your primary center or one of several alternate or backup locations. | |
| | fctvdave
join:2003-04-18
Warren, RI
| What everyone forget about Vonage is that it is an internet service. Like HBO is to CATV, caller ID is to the Bells, VoIP is for internet. I have had the Vonage service for over 7 months and I can safely say every time we pick up the Phone to call out we have dial tone. No outage's so far. It is very reliable and is great because my kids are on the phone all the time keeping my pots line free. Pretty much everywhere out of this area we live in is a toll call. Verizon and CATV phone CO's should take a long hard look at their pricing and calling areas. Start giving back more services to the consumers at no additional costs. When it comes to all the costs, added to the phone, we can only blame the regulators, and those who have their fingers in it. Goodness gracious if an adventurous company comes along with a way to make money by saving the public at large money. | |
| 
Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| How about Cell Phones? What about cellular providers?
If my cell phone damaged by third party or transmission tower is down for any reason and I CAN'T call 911 in case of emergency, what then?
I consider VoIP as secondary technology but not replacement for POTS. To have it as a primary phone carrier, first I will have to have 100% reliable connection.
It surprises my that politicians treat VoIP as a standard phone company.
--
The Truth is out there | |
| |
Biagra
@aol.com | Re: How about Cell Phones? Unlike cell service VOIP service is dependant on other ISP connections which means if the service fails vonange will not be liable for the damages occured (even if it was a failure on vonage part the likelihood of proving it will be a challenge). | |
| 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| The blackout has clearly intensified this debate Like many other industries, the recent blackout has really brought these VOIP issues into the forefront more anything. Of course, MY POTS LINE WENT OUT IN THE BLACKOUT TOO AND DIDN'T COME BACK for 24hours AFTER the power was back, so what good is that. I was told that area-wide blackouts can cutoff the phonelines for many people who are on certain kinds of switches that need power to run. Why isn't that issue being brought up? How can the RBOCs get away with that? | |
| |
See 20 replies to this post | |
oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| What's next for greedy gov't Kid's walkie talkies? Politco's aren't happy unless they're getting their cut. We shouldn't be surprised, government greed is unsatiable. This isn't about 911, this is about politcal hacks being able to assess junk taxes and fees on VoIP customers just like they do with satellite TV services.
[text was edited by author 2003-08-21 14:36:25] | |
| | Nice Try5
join:2003-04-17
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: What's next for greedy gov't said by oliphant5 :
This ins't about 911, this is about politcal hacks being able to assess junk taxes and fees on VoIP customers.
[text was edited by author 2003-08-21 13:14:23]
AMEN!! | |
| | | | | | |
asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| I'm going to go with oliphant on this.
I think it is far too early to talk about imposing regulation on voip. We should be allowing every opportunity for smaller players and competitive forces to develop, without the government mucking around here.
Leave it to the government to get it ass backwards.
We're hell bent on deregulating the incumbent telcos while we piss around trying to stifle the startups in their infancy. | |
| 
GoodDog
join:2000-07-03
Goshen, NY |  In the Dark
| |
| rip_sketches
join:2002-05-25
Dallas, GA
| Wait.. Probably been discussed before.
I know in Florida if you have your phone service shutoff the line still remains in use for 911 ONLY.
The local Telco there is legally obligated to provide an emergency line at all times. So as long as a residence has a phonejack on the wall, then 911 service is available at said residence. I don't know the same for other states, but i assume that some follow suit.
Why does a Data provider have to be reclassified when states that have these laws for telco's to operate under, will in most cases, already have residences with an "always on" connection to a local 911 center ? | |
| | clecrupt9
join:2002-01-22
GA
| Re: Wait.. In Ga the line may or may not have 911 when you dont have subscription to the service. There are only so many pairs available and as long as the pair youre on doesnt get grabbed for another customer you might still have 911 because the line is connected all the way to the CO. | |
| | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| 9-1-1 on a dead phone..... See "warm line" and "warm dialtone" discussion above.
It varies, by state, by line, by need for circuit reassignments, etc., etc.
Don't depend on it. Your mileage may vary.
Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | | SBC ST
join:2003-08-05
Strongsville, OH | Re: 9-1-1 on a dead phone..... I know I am a retard, but what does milage have to do with pots/911 service??? As I am kind of sure I know what I'M talking about. Please correct me if I am wrong. | |
| | | | | | RedDwarf
join:2002-09-17
Tewksbury, MA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Thumbs up for Vonage I finally dumped Verizon and went with Vonage w/ a cell phone backup. My cell phone doesn't really do 900 that well (they have no way of knowing where you are calling from) and Vonage's isn't much different, they send you to a local number that can help you. If the government gets involved at this point now that voip is getting popular, it's purely motivated by money and makes me even more resolute in my stance against the suits that run this country. | |
| | thesluce0
join:2003-08-20
New York, NY
|  Re: Thumbs up for Vonage
said by RedDwarf :
I finally dumped Verizon and went with Vonage w/ a cell phone backup. My cell phone doesn't really do 900 that well (they have no way of knowing where you are calling from) and Vonage's isn't much different, they send you to a local number that can help you. If the government gets involved at this point now that voip is getting popular, it's purely motivated by money and makes me even more resolute in my stance against the suits that run this country.
I can't agree more. I ordered Vonage, transfered my old number, got 3 2.4 GHz phones and I away we go!!
I made one of the most satisfying call of my life to Verizon to DUMP THEM. It was great.
My phone bills are half of what they used to be, I live in NYC, and the sound quality is great.
Do the research, like I did, and then don't be afraid to take the plunge.
It's well worth it.
I got a great deal on a router from Vonage too. | |
| 
masterpjz9
join:2000-10-14
Peabody, MA |  Vonage Connect to 911
| |
| |
See 16 replies to this post | |
lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
| Back to the main discussion Vonage when run via a cable modem is an information service and not a phone service. Remember a while back when our good, albeit somewhat frumpy, friend Chairman Powell issued a ruling that cable service is an information service and not subject to telecommunications regulations? Doesn't that take the ball out of the states utility commission court regarding anything over the cable system? | |
| | YRLESS
join:2003-08-07
Bartlesville, OK
| Information Services
VOIP is the same as iTunes, Yahoo Messenger, AIM, and any other service that one would choose to use over their existing Internet connection. One could even argue that WiFi resell would qualify under this. If the BIG Internet providers and telcos had their way nothing could be sold online with out them getting a cut of it. If they are going to require Vonage to provide E911 service, then why stop there; why not require it of your email client, your web browser, AIM, or any other application. I can see it now Press F1 for help and Alt-F1 for 911. Where do we draw the line? You fat-finger and an ambulance is in the driveway. Let get serious and see that there are limits to technology. I think that it is great the Vonage is in business. The state PUCs just want to make sure that they are getting all the taxes and fees that are to be had. I don't even want to get on a rant about taxes. | |
| | |
Biagra
@aol.com | Re: Information Services Whats the difference between net2phone and this service? | |
| | | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| said by YRLESS :
Very Good.
VOIP is the same as iTunes, Yahoo Messenger, AIM, and any other service that one would choose to use over their existing Internet connection. One could even argue that WiFi resell would qualify under this. If the BIG Internet providers and telcos had their way nothing could be sold online with out them getting a cut of it. If they are going to require Vonage to provide E911 service, then why stop there; why not require it of your email client, your web browser, AIM, or any other application. I can see it now Press F1 for help and Alt-F1 for 911. Where do we draw the line? You fat-finger and an ambulance is in the driveway. Let get serious and see that there are limits to technology. I think that it is great the Vonage is in business. The state PUCs just want to make sure that they are getting all the taxes and fees that are to be had. I don't even want to get on a rant about taxes.
It is Federal Law that all telephone must have access to 911 (Pub. L. 106-81, Sec. 2, Oct. 26, 1999, 113 Stat. 1286), this law is known as "Wireless Communications and Public Safety Act of 1999" (47 USC Sec. 615). Which was implemented by the FCC by the adoption of order FCC 01-351 (»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···51A1.pdf) on November 29, 2001 which required the transition to use of 911 as the national emergency number by September 11, 2002. The regulations also required that any 10 or 7 digit numbers being used to receive emergency calls had to be disconnected, with callers being given instructions to call 911. As I understand it Vonage is sending its 911 calls to 7 or 10 digit numbers, which would make it in violation of this law.
The governing body for the 911 system standards is the National Emergency Number Association their guidance on the matter is: service parity is a basic objective—every potential 9-1-1 caller should have the same likelihood of a successful 9-1-1 call connection, regardless of the source of the call, whether from an ILEC, a CLEC, an ISP, or a wireless carrier (»www.nena9-1-1.org/9-1-1TechStand···plan.htm) Please note that they very clearly included ISPs along with ILECs and CLECs. The law and other regulations are very clear that all 911 calls must go directly to the correct 911 operator, not a regular telephone number someplace in a 911 center. The issue is not VOIP, it has been around for quite awhile. The issue is how Vonage is operating & selling its service (which happens to use VOIP) to the public! They are advertising themselves as a telephone service. | |
| | | | YRLESS
join:2003-08-07
Bartlesville, OK
|  Re: Information Services
So basically there is a law that says that is the way it is to be done. I do think that safety should be first. Are the provisions in the laws spelled out clearly for VOIP providers or is this simply a big gray area that needs more clarification?
[text was edited by author 2003-08-29 13:13:05] | |
| 
bba71
The One
join:2002-11-20
Pleasanton, CA
| RE: car analogy getting back to the car analogy.....if a company came out with a three wheeled car that didn't have airbags and seatbelts and claimed, "it's not a car, it only has three wheels it's different and shouldn't be regulated." how would that be fair? it's still providing the same service, transportation..
nobody is asking the voip's to adhere to a higher standard, just the same standard that the telcos are held to. afterall, regardless of how they get the signal there, be it twisted copper or over the net, they provide the same service...
[text was edited by author 2003-08-23 14:54:35] | |
| | 
rklein
God Among Hogs
join:2001-01-18
Worcester, MA
| Re: RE: car analogy Are you gonna try putting seatbelts and airbags on my motorcycle? Actually, I do like seatbelts in my cars, but I think airbags oughta be optional.
But that's got nothing to do with VoIP; I just didn't like the analogy.
--
-Rich | |
| | |
bba71
The One
join:2002-11-20
Pleasanton, CA | Re: RE: car analogy i didn't bring up the car analogy. i just pointed out that it could be used another way... | |
| 
nunya
SEE ROCK CITY 475 MILES
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
clubs:
·AT&T CallVantage
| "Vonage - The Broadband Phone Company" "Vonage - The Broadband Phone Company"
It says it right on their website. Anyone arguing that Vonage is not touting themselves as telephone service need to face facts. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
So, why shouldn't they have to play by the same rules as every other carrier?
--
Put it up, plow it in, pull it through, or shutup and get out of the way - Me. Note to Congress, Re: Cable T.V.- It's time to force divestiture, force open networks, or deregulate the entire telecom industry. Now. | |
| keason
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Ann Arbor, MI
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
|  Why haven't the ILEC's deployed a VOIP service?
The downside of every I/C LEC is the high taxes and archaic rate structure ('Local phone area? It doesn't make sense when every call between switches rides an ATM circuit).
I don't think you can call Vonage an equivalent service, because:
1. You have to bring your own transport. Any I/CLEC service includes transport. My experience - (I've worked in the carrier space for 20+ hears) shows that telco service is Much more reliable than IP services. Yes, copper goes down on occasion but you rarely have widespread IP outages - Blaster, Sobig port scans crippling DSLAMs, upstream router outages- etc. that you have on most DSL, most Tier 2 and even some Tier 1 networks.
2. You don't- and shouldn't- have taxes beyond a 3% federal tax.
The USF- which subsidizes rural areas, Federal Access charges- applies to carriers who build transport. I don't ever see Vonage building copper or fiber.
Federal Access Charge- which gives LEC's more $$ in exchange for LD - Vonage has NO choice in LD carrier.
Number portability charge - a profit charge for the LEC -
911 charges - Vonage is too small to link with every 911 system - it would be a programming nightmare and kill the company.
Products like Vonage show where the industy is heading - fixed rate, , less billing hassles, more innovation.
We don't even have fully featured (like Europe) ISDN service- nearly 20 years after introduction.
If the LEC's want to roll out a similar service, they should be exempt from the taxes as well. It seems crazy that SBC , Bell South, Verizon hasn't done a VoIP roll out yet - they could control QoS by deploying through their DSLAMs, , stack multiple phone #'s on a single copper pair, and vastly increase their billing per customer without much increase in cost. Wake up ILECs! | |
|
curiousalso
@Dial1.NewY | why does it matter ? Hi why would it matter to conage or any other what location i choose. Example: I pick ny for state, then an area code, then they give some chooses for a town, why would that matter? thanks | |
| | | |
|
|
Re: If you are ditching
