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Vonage Settles With AT&T
While company loses ground to cable giants
by Karl Bode 12:04PM Thursday Nov 08 2007 Tipped by travelguy See Profile
Vonage has released their third quarter earnings, which indicate the company saw a third-quarter net loss of $162 million -- thanks in large part to the $133 million spent last quarter on legal expenses. The company added 78,000 subscribers last quarter -- at least one of whom didn't even have a computer -- a particularly impressive feat.

Click for full size
The company's churn rate, or rate of customer defections, rose to 3% from 2.5%. "The result of the existing care problems and negative press associated with the litigation caused churn to rise to 3 percent," Jeff Citron tells Reuters.

"The first thing the company needs to do is fix the customer service issue," Citron insists. Of course, you knew that. You've known it for a long time.

The company also says they've settled their patent dispute with AT&T to the tune of $39 million over five years. Meanwhile, Time Warner Cable jumped past Vonage this week to become the second largest VoIP provider in the United States with 2.6 million VoIP customers. Comcast is dominating the sector with 3.8 million VoIP customers.

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satellite68

join:2007-04-11
Louisville, KY

1 recommendation

how many posts until...

the following will be posted:

1. Die Vonage, Die!
2. It's all Bush's fault
3. You dumbasses, landlines are always better than VOIP
4. Lawyers are the bane of modern society
5. Their IPO was a dot-com fantasy and is now worthless
6. That's what they get for crossing with Ma Bell
7. I have Vonage, and it's great!
8. My puppy died because I couldn't dial 911 on my Vonage
9. If you use Vonage, the terrorists win!
10. Patent laws are confusing and obsolete

loli
Premium
join:2002-08-26
South Richmond Hill, NY

Re: how many posts until...

/end conversation
firewire9999

join:2004-07-11
Livonia, MI
Hmm you forgot one

12. Vonage's VOIP causes global warming.

knightmb
Everybody Lies

join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
said by satellite68:

7. I have Vonage, and it's great!
I'll take that one.

Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2
Wow I think you just posted everything that could be posted... game over!

Oh well there is one thing: If Vonage was $10/month it would make sense to me. But sorry, $25/month is even more than what my telco would charge me (for basic phone service).

I use cell phones, but for home I have a metered VOIP line @ $1.50/month + about $2-3 in minute charges (1.5 cents per min). I think my most expensive month it cost me $7 to have the line.

knightmb
Everybody Lies

join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN

1 edit

Re: how many posts until...

Click for full size
It doesn't get any cheaper than this for a basic line
said by Jerm:

Wow I think you just posted everything that could be posted... game over!

Oh well there is one thing: If Vonage was $10/month it would make sense to me. But sorry, $25/month is even more than what my telco would charge me (for basic phone service).
Which telco would that be? AT&T (the only choice besides Comcast, which isn't available in this area) charges $23.60 for this:
•1 Landline
•No Touch Tone Service (must use rotary dial)
•No Long Distance
•No other call feature
•Local calls within a 50 mile radius only

You won't find a basic line cheaper, but you also don't get anything. So for a few bucks more, I can get a line through Vonage that gives me all call features, caller id, touch tone dialing, unlimited long distance/local to this Country and a few others, online call log, simulring to other numbers, etc. The list goes on.

So how is that a better deal again? Feature for feature, a basic line is terrible unless you need some type of inbound only line or only call your neighbors from time to time.

Note, that line above is an inbound fax online line I use. You won't find a line any cheaper from AT&T in this state.

well87878787

@centurytel.com

Re: how many posts until...

Well, you're missing the one most important thing, reliable 911, which only a telco can provide. No wireless can provide guaranteed no-delay access to the local PSAP, which is operated by the telco, nor can any VOIP company or cable company.

knightmb
Everybody Lies

join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN

1 edit

Re: how many posts until...

said by well87878787 :

Well, you're missing the one most important thing, reliable 911, which only a telco can provide. No wireless can provide guaranteed no-delay access to the local PSAP, which is operated by the telco, nor can any VOIP company or cable company.
That's only relative to the area. My Vonage 911 goes to the same center that this landline does. So if anything cuts the line be it the Internet or this land line, it still results in no service. Kind of moot point to bring up. Both are only as reliable as the cable it runs through. Oddly enough when testing 911 on the landline, they had the wrong address. The Vonage had the correct address. The landline is only as good as the humans who service it, just like anything else.

You also forgot that I can't dial 911 from my landline because none of my phones support rotary dialing, they are touch tone only. In an emergency my Vonage line would be the first thing I reach for. I've been through 2 family/local emergencies with it, no problems either time.
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI

Re: how many posts until...

Well, I'm sorry you chose to live in an area that fails to have 911 mandatory, that's not the fault of the telephone company, it's your county you live in for not requiring it.
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI
The 911 infrastructure was not built for VOIP, Cable, or Wireless, therefore, you can't rely on such companies services to guarantee 911. Vonage doesn't even offer 911 unless you ask for it, kind of a joke if you ask me. Plus, with Vonage, your 911 call is going over the internet, therefore you are susceptible to all the problems the internet is, and the line isn't physically tied to your location, you are being mislead by refusing to realize the reality of the situations that have arisen in the past and will continue over getting emergency access over wireless, cable, or VOIP. Sadly enough, per the Vonage website, a lot of 911 calls go to their own 911 center, which would therefore cause delay in emergency response because you have someone in the middle answering the call, not the actual county 911 dispatch. You just can't rely on anything for 911 except POTS. As for the reliability of the cable, well, I'll guarantee that a POTS line is more reliable than cable or wireless. You get what you pay for.
satellite68

join:2007-04-11
Louisville, KY

1 recommendation

Re: how many posts until...

uh, yeah.

if my Vonage line didn't get 911, the three cell phones I have would. And if they didn't, my neighbor's house is right there and his two cell phones would.

and yes, I've called 911 on Vonage with NO issues or delays.

The endless fearmongering about 911 and VOIP is tiresome. I'm certain that if a car hits the pole out in front of my house, NOBODY'S POTS line is going to work in the neighborhood. So your logic is a bit flawed, as even those who "get what they pay for" would be disconnected anyways.
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI

Re: how many posts until...

Tell me it's flawed when you see the day when the problem happens. Plus, cell phones aren't reliable, personal experience, more than once, will never rely on a cell phone when I have access to a land line again, ever. My logic is not flawed, you try working in the business and tell me that it's flawed. Cell phones break easy, lost signals, bad weather causes towers signals to deteriorate, batteries die easier. 99% of American's don't get it, and those that do, well, still have a POTS line. End of discussion.
satellite68

join:2007-04-11
Louisville, KY

Re: how many posts until...

again, your assumption is that POTS is the most reliable service...seemingly based on you "working in the business". so if you do, how many break points are there with a POTS line? Are you saying they don't have any? Poles get hit by cars. CO's have power failures. Incorrect wiring in the premise. Water in the SLIC. Airplanes hitting power lines to homes and central offices.

Nice stat, BTW. I'm sure you can cite some outside reference to prove your point about "99% of American's (sic) don't get it".
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI

Re: how many posts until...

You are all misguided, research things before you jump on me about it, there is a reason I'm stressing the POTS line. Personal experience, family, friends, all trouble dialing 911 and getting connected over VOIP, and straight up FACTS.

READ: »www.voip911.gov/
READ: »www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/voip911.html

Check it: "Inform their customers of the capabilities and limitations of their VoIP 911 service."

Guess what? Out of every POTS disconnect that is going to a VOIP service, NONE of them are told about the limitations of 911 and how it is a REALITY and not just some "gimmick" by the telco. What a freakin joke, people have called back in to connect POTS service because of a situation that came up where wireless or VOIP 911 didn't work, no results, someone died, got hurt, whatever it is. It makes me really sad that when someone wants to disconnect their POTS and go to VOIP, Cable, or only wireless, and I hear kids in the background. What if there was a babysitter over, or a guest, who didn't know the address, and when 911 was called, guess what the dispatcher can't locate the person, because it's wireless or VOIP, all that time lost. It's the what if's you need to be thinking about, not "I've never needed it, why should I care now?" attitude, because you know what, the time you REALLY need it is when you don't have it. With the unreliability of 911 on anything BUT POTS, that is sickening that someone wouldn't research it more to make sure their family is safe. EVERY SINGLE CALL. THAT is how I get 99% of American's are misguided, from my own experience and facts, not just some website I found on Google. I am in the 1% that isn't misguided. Very small amount, sadly enough, it should be the other way around. You, yourself, are misguided, so why don't you search the internet or some other source some more and prove to me that your 911 on your VOIP is more reliable than a POTS line. Hence the post by the guy below about the 32 lines into a 911 call center and only 4 are for VOIP or wireless, yeah, real reliable.

I am not doing this to prove you wrong, I am doing this because it's for you, and everyone else's safety, I would never go to only a VOIP or wireless service as my primary form of emergency access.

Now, I am done arguing with you about it, have this post for breakfast, and think about it while you're going about your happy-go-lucky day.
satellite68

join:2007-04-11
Louisville, KY

Re: how many posts until...

quote:
I am not doing this to prove you wrong, I am doing this because it's for you, and everyone else's safety, I would never go to only a VOIP or wireless service as my primary form of emergency access


Alright Pontiff! Enough with the matyrdom!

knightmb
Everybody Lies

join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
said by cwruck:

Tell me it's flawed when you see the day when the problem happens. Plus, cell phones aren't reliable, personal experience, more than once, will never rely on a cell phone when I have access to a land line again, ever. My logic is not flawed, you try working in the business and tell me that it's flawed. Cell phones break easy, lost signals, bad weather causes towers signals to deteriorate, batteries die easier. 99% of American's don't get it, and those that do, well, still have a POTS line. End of discussion.
I don't know really know if the issue is about logic. More about perception. You see a land line as invincible, where as we see it as another part of the network that can fail just like anything else. I do work in the business, I have many customers who use *only* VoIP for their business. Their uptime is as good as any land line they had before. It all comes down to equipment, backups, and reliable service. No piece of paper or 5 nine's number is going to insure that if lightning strikes a pole, the neighbor cuts your cable instead of a tree, or the phone guy gets the wires crossed, that 911 will be always be there.

I've seen the times, many times when a POTS line was dead, cut, or just not setup right by the phone company. I don't know where you get this mantra that landlines are infallible but I have news for everyone, they aren't!

This is 10 years of experience talking, not just what I read on Google. Anyone in the biz knows that yes, POTS has way over a hundred years of technology behind it, but it's as far from perfect as VoIP is and that's exactly why VoIP is growing in numbers every day. Because "we" realized long ago that the infallible POTS urban legend has haunted consumers long enough is finally fading away.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY

1 edit
ehhh...
cells phones work in many situations where a hurricane may have knocked out phone lines. For example, during Katrina, cell phones were the ONLY option for people whose landlines were cut. Also, many CO's were flooded by the storm surge. You guys seems to think phone CO's are located somewhere in heaven, but face the facts: they are just as likely to fail as anything else. NO technology is bulletproof, but at least with cellphones, there is not physical medium b/w the user and network, thus reducing the # of variables that can cause probs.
BTW, of the people whose landlines were still working after Katrina, many faced busy circuits, due to the HUGE overloading of the already-limited phone infrastructure. Also, 911 centers were flooded with calls, thus making a landline a moot point.
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI

Re: how many posts until...

Last time I knew cell towers had to have power and use a land line at some point eventually, so what you said doesn't matter. If a hurricane comes through, do you really expect ANYTHING to work? Really...

who_knows

@comcast.net

Re: how many posts until...

ditto..... he's a blow hard. i give him 6 months tops and he is gone.

Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
I went to a 911 call center to observe calls just a couple of weekends ago. This is a small center with 4-5 employees (at any given time) and 32 lines in.

When touring the center, I asked about non-traditional voice calls (Wireless, VoIP, etc.). They take many calls from these sources, but I was told an interesting fact. Of the 32 lines, 28 are reserved for POTS calls and the other 4 are for non-POTS calls.

When I asked why I was told that if they didn't do that they would be inundated with duplicate calls every time there was an accident on the highway.

I don't know if this is practiced in larger call centers or not, but even if my VoIP/Cell network was as reliable as the POTS network, I would hate to think I would have to call back to 911 just because 4 other people were calling in at the same time as me... I would rather take the 1 of 28 odds than the 1 of 4.
--
DSLr Mafia Member.
Roboto1980

join:2007-06-06
Olney, IL

Re: how many posts until...

Well, if there are 4-5 ppl working there and you and 4 other ppl call on POTS then guess what...still not gonna be anyone to answer the phone, so its kind of a moot point
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI
RE: "I've been through 2 family/local emergencies with it, no problems either time."

Well, best of luck to you when the time comes that it doesn't work when you need it most. I will keep you in my prayers.
Roboto1980

join:2007-06-06
Olney, IL
Where I live the telco (verizon) is worthless for calling 911 anyway. It is easier to just call the police/fire/ambulance number yourself. I had Vonage back when it was $45/mo. and they were still cheaper than Verizon local service without long distance. I used Vonage for several years before I moved to a place where I couldnt get broadband. I am back in a high speed area but currently only need my cell phone or I would be back with Vonage again.
cwruck

join:2004-08-13
La Crosse, WI
Well, you're missing the one most important thing, reliable 911, which only a telco can provide. No wireless can provide guaranteed no-delay access to the local PSAP, which is operated by the telco, nor can any VOIP company or cable company. *repost, for some reason my original isn't showing up*

jjS1973

@sbcglobal.net

1 edit
Dude, put the vonage kool-aid down.
I get dsl and phone service from AT&T for 52.00 a month that includes long distance and everything else.
grandpinaple

join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
ROFL

Ben
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
said by satellite68:

3. You dumbasses, landlines are always better than VOIP
I'll take this one.

My experience is that POTS has never gone down, at least for me.

Another concern is 911. So far I haven't needed to call it but if I do, I sure as hell want to be able to.

Plus one very good thing is that if the power goes out, it works anyway. I don't want to hear about the C.O. losing power because they aren't going to construct it in such a flimsy manner.

I use my POTS line with Western Electric 500s. They are simple, tough, reliable devices that run off of the phone line. These phones don't support DTMF, but I don't need touch-tone. There's always another way (usually just staying on the line until a human is on the other end). If I absolutely MUST have DTMF due to some crappy company I'll use a payphone. I suppose I could buy some Cortelco 2500s except I'm cheap. I know you can't get the W.E. 500s new, but they're solid enough you don't need to. They're pretty cheap on E-Bay.

Given what I get, it's worth it. For $70/mo., I get this:

- Unmetered domestic long distance. No per-call or per-minute charges whether I call Arizona, New Jersey, or even my next-door neighbor.
- Caller ID, and some other features I can't remember and don't use (the bundle was cheaper than the L.D. and CID alone).
- The $5/mo. option so International phone calls are cheaper. Such calls are the only ones that cost extra and make my bill go up.
- Never goes down. Though I don't live in Earthquake or Hurricane country (I live in Tornado country).

It's a good deal, because unless it's to another country I never have to think about "Okay, how much is the phone bill going to be next month?"

I think VOIP is a pretty useless and redundant concept, like BPL (unless there's something about BPL that I don't know). I do, however, agree with FTTP for Internet access, since I do see advantages to that.

jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Avon, OH

well

You may say die vonage but that doresn't help voip at all. I am not a fan of vonage but they are the flagship of voip. And maybe the guy who purchased voip got the internet as a bundle and got voip so he could have cheap unlimited phone line. Maybe he has a tmobile phone that uses internet. Maybe he has a pda or tablet he uses the internet on. maybe his friends and family come over often to use the itnernet. Maybe we onlhy heard one part of the story.
--
3 free for you/3 free for me: Free Stock Trades : PM Me

another for the list

It's all hillarys fault!!!! cant forget that one

mack1951
Universal Soldier

join:2000-04-18
Bayonne, NJ

Re: another for the list

Hey stop piling on. You male pig you.
--
THE ROAD: Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 edit

Vonage recovered from darkest days; but still dropping

Vonage has recovered from the darkest days after their competitors started suing them by settling out of court.


But long term, since their IPO, they are still dropping in value qtr after qtr. Given the cable companies continued growth here, their prospects still suck.


Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page

laserjobs
Premium
join:2004-05-02
Las Vegas, NV

Price point has been broken

Vonage is a dead duck now VoIP price points have been broken. Why would anyone continue to pay $15-30 a month when there are now services offering the same for $3-6.

For example:
OneSuite
MagicJack
SkypeOut
Callcentric

Or even free if you use Grand Central and Gizmo Project
--

Vote for Ron Paul in the Republican Primaries
zxxxt

join:2007-09-07

Re: Price point has been broken

I agree...so Vonage got to do something about it otherwise they will pack their bags soon.

Not sure how voip companies able to survive these outrageous low prices but for sure they did their homework before pricing their service this low. Onesuite for example has been my prepaid card service for so many years and I don't think they will price their voip service and won't give them a profit in the long run.

Magicjack although new in the business priced their service low compare to other yearly plans albeit now they are having some kind of problems and they need to fix it otherwise people will take their business somewhere else.

Rob
In Deo speramus.
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
kudos:2

$133 million in legal expenses?

What in the world is wrong with our country when a company has to spend $133 million dollars in legal fees? The lawyers get richer by the second..

dmeyer6

join:2002-08-14
Austin, TX

Features

Vonage's stock may be in the shitter, but consider this.

Vonage offers more features for the money than any other VOIP provider. Tell me if Time Warner or Comcast offers Anonymous Call Rejection (albeit, this is relatively new to Vonage). Or Call Forwarding/SimulRing. Or voicemail to email capability. Or virtual numbers. Or toll-free numbers. Faxing. Nope, didn't think so. Plus a half dozen other things that make Vonage unique.

Based on the value, Vonage is still the best buy, for $25 you get much better free unlimited international calling to Europe landlines and a lot more features than any of the cable fat cats.

Vonage is the VOIP of choice for advanced users. This is its niche. And as long as they stay in business, I will be their customer. Despite what Jim Cramer says, Vonage is a good company and I like it.

•••••

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

Idiots

"The company added 78,000 subscribers last quarter -- at least one of whom didn't even have a computer -- a particularly impressive feat."

You have to be some really special kind of stupid to sign up for VoIP and not even have a computer or internet.

•••
russotto

join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

1 recommendation

In related news....

The RIAA has sued Charlotte McCarter, the Vonage customer without a computer, for ONE MILLION DOLLARS for copyright infringement via P2P.

Link8

join:2001-12-16
Davis, CA

Re: In related news....

said by russotto:

The RIAA has sued Charlotte McCarter, the Vonage customer without a computer, for ONE MILLION DOLLARS for copyright infringement via P2P.
Maybe she was pirating music over the phone?

RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Steamboat Springs, CO

Vonage to fix customer care?

That's a ridiculous concept. Vonage grew and grew with a business model that relied on lousy service. Other businesses have watched Vonage grow and grow and have copied that model. One could make the argument that Vonage invented lousy and vindictive and oppressive customer service. Citron has been providing lousy customer service for years, and has known it all this time. Remember all those news reports around the time of the IPO mentioning that one negative to the long term prospects of the stock was the lousy customer service? Fix it? He did it on purpose! I wouldn't count on any improvement even one little bit.
--
"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers."
dobeonguard

join:2002-12-31
North Canton, OH

Re: Vonage to fix customer care?

I would never recommend VoIP to someone who is challenged in operating some other form of redundancy. Those who are relying on POTS, and POTS only as if it were as strong as their comic book hero will be the one we are praying for, as they too should have cellphone etc. I am sure that those who argue strictly for POTS are the same that argue against Amateur Radio. A POTS connection can be lost for a neighborhood, city, or even the county by someone striking the above ground poles, or those little sheds we see in the strip between the sidewalk and road. Same as my cable line could be. Do you honestly think you have a dedicated "twisted pair" of copper all the way to your PD/FD? Ad what about the aging network of copper? What about the idiot call takers at the 911 center that are underpaid and overworked? What about the storm that prevents emergency crews getting to you in time? What about the armed burglar in your home that will shoot you well before the police arrive? In an emergency, the first thing I am NOT picking up is the telephone. Either a first aid kit, fire extinguisher, my Glock or giving the commands to my two police dogs. Oh yea, what about the fire that starts in the electrical system and burns through the POTS and cable line before you can get to call 911?? hmmmmm I have had Vonage for 4 years now and love it, my Road Runner line however is super, super stable and reliable which is necessary when considering VoIP. If you are not educated enough to know the technology through and through, stick to the little "Help, I have fallen and can't get up button"
attengineer

join:2007-09-26
Westland, MI

Seems like a nice plan to me.

$42.00 a month for;

AT&T Unlimited Nationwide Calling Select II(SM) - Allows you to make an unlimited number of domestic direct-dialed local toll and long distance calls, anytime, anywhere in the United States for a low monthly rate.

10 Custom Calling features - Caller ID with Name, Call Waiting, Call Waiting ID, Privacy Manager®, Three-Way Calling, Automatic Callback, Call Forwarding, Call Screening, Repeat Dialing, and Speed Calling 8. Call Waiting ID is not available in Illinois and Wisconsin.

Convenient Billing Information - AT&T Local and AT&T Long Distance services are provided on the same bill

Reliable Service - Service is provided by a name that you know and trust.

Of course we have to pay Jennifer Granholm & congress their share also.

Everyone keep in mind; ALL...I say again....ALL your alternatives use the telcos wires anyway and one point or another. If your CO power goes down...So does your Voip. If a major power outage hits your cell phone WILL go done. The CO does have a huge advantage of very large backup generators though for Pots service. This was beautifully shown correct when that huge 5 day power outage happened a few years ago. My cell phone quit within 4 hours, cable TV and modem & wireless house phone immediately. But for 3 days my little old fashion wired phone I had out in the garage worked perfectly.