Vonage - Verizon Judgement RemandedCourt upholds two out of three patent violations, retrial ordered... ( old news - 03:06PM Wednesday Sep 26 2007) tags: legal · business · trouble · VoIP · Vonage · Verizon VoiceWingTipped by travelguy  Back in March, a federal jury ruled that Vonage infringed on three of Verizon's patents, and said the company had to pay $58 million in damages, as well as a 5.5% royalty rate on each Vonage customer. Today, an appeals court upheld the ruling on two of the patents, but remanded the ruling on the 880 patent and vacated the award. The U.S. District Court now must retry the single patent case, though Vonage could still be forced to pay up. Vonage, for its part, continued the flood of press releases that insist everything is going to be ok: In light of the workaround technology that Vonage has developed and deployed, today's decision is not expected to have an adverse impact on Vonage's business and customers will continue to enjoy the same great service they have come to expect from Vonage. Workarounds to the 711 patent and the 574 patent have been deployed for awhile. "We thank the appellate court for its thoughtful consideration of the merits of our case," said Vonage's Chief Legal Officer, Sharon O'Leary. "We are pleased with the decision to vacate the 880 patent and the damages. However, Vonage remains confident that it has not infringed on the 880 patent -- a position we will continue to vigorously assert and look forward to presenting at trial." Yesterday, a federal jury ruled that the company infringed on six patents held by Sprint, and ordered Vonage to pay $69.5 million in damages and 5% of all future revenue. That Vonage stock isn't looking so hot -- currently trading at 93 cents.
Related:- Vonage Owes Verizon $120 Million
- Vonage Faces Patent Infringement Claim by Nortel
- Verizon Adds Charter To Its List of Lawsuits
- Vonage Hates To See Customers Go
- Court Rules for Vonage in Universal Service Fund Case
- Skype Takes Heat For Chinese Censorship
- FCC Doesn't Like Comcast's New Treatment of VoIP
- Comcast Denies Unfair VoIP Discrimination
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LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
 ·Comcast
| Re: Vonage Yes, Vonage can try and spin it any way they want, but they lost and they owe Verizon money for past infringement even if they now claim they have workarounds going forward.
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| | Jonbo298
join:2004-01-12
Council Bluffs, IA | *digs in couch*
Yay! I can own a share of vonage now  | |
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Jim Gurd
Premium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
·Comcast
| Stick a fork in them. They're done.
Vonage has never closed above their IPO price ever. | |
| qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
 ·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
| In other patent news... Today, the SCOTUS agreed to hear a case involving "double dipping" of patents. In other words, is it fair for a patent holder to sue everyone down the line if their patent gets infringed.
Quoting Slashdot:
"This case, officially between LG and Quanta, really concerns the question of how many times patent holders can get a cut of any component found violating a patent. Currently, patent holders will often sue up and down the food chain. So, if you happen to have a patent on a component within a motor that is used in automobile wipers, you could sue the motor maker, the wiper maker and the auto manufacturer -- and get all three to pay, even though the same product is used throughout the supply chain. This case will look at whether or not it makes sense to allow for that type of double, triple or quadruple dipping."
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| | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk
| Re: In other patent news... Good find -- this opens a big can of worms, for a VOIP company. If they buy soft switches from a company that is later found to be infringing on someone else's patent, is the VOIP company going to be held liable, when all they did was buy some hardware?
That's where the ongoing cash flow is coming from (to pay those royalties) so you can bet that's what the lawyers are going to want to pursue. | |
| JSRoman
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Callahan, FL
| Suggestion to Vonage subs. Jump ship while they still have functional operations. Once they file for bankruptcy which they way things are going could be very soon, you are going to be in a world of hurt porting services.
To Vonage stockholder,my condolences.
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»www.seabee.navy.mil | |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online
1 edit | Re: Suggestion to Vonage subs. said by JSRoman :Jump ship while they still have functional operations. Once they file for bankruptcy which they way things are going could be very soon, you are going to be in a world of hurt porting services. To Vonage stockholder,my condolences. I care about the great service I'm getting for the price, and the fact that I can take my same number anywhere I move to by just plugging in the adapter, with no "porting" BS. Not one other service offers that feature.
If Vonage goes, I'm not bothering with the hassle of "porting", I'll just go with my cable company's VoIP service and get a new number. It doesn't have free, unlimited calling to Europe and I can't take it with me if I move, but it's the easiest thing to do.
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JIHAD WATCH~~9582 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11~~TEAM DISCOVERY | |
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phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
 ·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Suggestion to Vonage subs. said by La Luna :said by JSRoman :Jump ship while they still have functional operations. Once they file for bankruptcy which they way things are going could be very soon, you are going to be in a world of hurt porting services. To Vonage stockholder,my condolences. I care about the great service I'm getting for the price, and the fact that I can take my same number anywhere I move to by just plugging in the adapter, with no "porting" BS. Not one other service offers that feature.If Vonage goes, I'm not bothering with the hassle of "porting", I'll just go with my cable company's VoIP service and get a new number. It doesn't have free, unlimited calling to Europe and I can't take it with me if I move, but it's the easiest thing to do. Sure there are others. SIPPhone, MyPhoneCompany.com, CallVantage, I can keep going on, but my suggestion is to check out www.voip-info.org for a list of SIP providers. I myself don't care too much for Vonage... Had them 3 years, and their customer service sucks horribly.
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1. | |
| | | innoman
-
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Raleigh, NC
clubs:  | Seriously... Almost all VoIP services (not offered by cable companies and phone companies) are portable... I can take my VoicePulse anywhere! | |
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onebadmofo
Repost These Nuts In Your Mouth.
Premium
join:2002-03-30
Reading, PA | Hmm...so... ....what does this mean for their customers? We were thinking of going with Vonage but now it doesn't seem like the wisest of decisions.
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Photoshop these nuts in your mouth. | |
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dodgetech2
join:2002-01-01
Gouldsboro, PA | Re: Vonage Call me stupid, but I'm buying more stock 
Its a bargain right now and there ain't much to lose if it hits the floor... | |
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TJ_in_IL
join:2006-06-10
Winthrop Harbor, IL | Re: Vonage No kidding!
Some of us lost more than we care to admit with SunRocket.
Why not drop a few bucks on some stock?
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TeleBlend- Your Local Broadband Phone Company???? | |
| | KSC519
join:2002-03-14
Chicago, IL
·Lightning Bolt DSL
·Vonage
| Re: Hmm...so... Overall, Vonage is a company with a fantastic product. I've been using their service over 4 years now. It works, plain and simple. The patent and lawsuit garbage is evidence that the larger companies know they can't compete, so they sue instead. I, for one, will be buying stock and an additional line. If more people sign up, the company should be fine no matter what happens in the courts. | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
·Comcast
| Re: Hmm...so... said by KSC519 :Overall, Vonage is a company with a fantastic product. I've been using their service over 4 years now. It works, plain and simple. The patent and lawsuit garbage is evidence that the larger companies know they can't compete, so they sue instead. I, for one, will be buying stock and an additional line. If more people sign up, the company should be fine no matter what happens in the courts. So at what point do you Robin Hood DSLR people think that it's okay for a party to enforce its patents? | |
| | | | KSC519
join:2002-03-14
Chicago, IL | Re: Hmm...so... When said patents aren't so broad. Patents should cover specific items or products, not general ideas. | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
·Comcast
| Re: Hmm...so... And who and how do you think the breadth of a patent should be limited?
Do you call out each and every element in an invention, making it a picture claim that is likely easily designed around or do you only put in the critical elements?
Who defines which are the critical elements? | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Hmm...so... You have to admit there are some seriously broad-worded patents out there that do little more than introduce an idea for something rather than showing an actual invention or application that shows proof of concept. It shouldn't be that hard for the patent office to ask "how is this done?" when a broad patent comes up. This way if somebody else has the same idea, but the methodology is different then the patent hasn't been violated.
Limits can be put into place, and should be. | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
·Comcast
1 edit | Re: Hmm...so... There are certainly broadly worded patents out there--I agree.
But again, how narrow should the claims be written? I can make something enabling through fairly vague wording, or I can put in every nut and bolt in there. The patent laws state that a patent is for enabling one skilled in the art to practice the invention. If that's the case, I don't have to be terribly specific. The courts have held that requiring some experimentation by the non-patentee is okay.
So, is it okay to claim a fastener in a patent, or do I have to specifically call out a screw, bolt, rivet, nail. And if so, do I have to then call out a screw having a star shaped head or a slot? Who decides that?
It's easy to cry out for limits, but actual implementation is unbelievable difficult. Every day in my job I come up against patent that we believe are too broad. But yet, when we engage searchers and I search as well, we can't 100% always seem to come up with the prior art that would invalidate these seemingly overbroad patents.
A system where you limit patents to overly narrow claim breadth is a sure fire way to limit innovation. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Hmm...so... The solution isn't to make patent approvals overly narrow. Just to have an actual technology or methodology behind it. For instance a patent simply stating a claim to the technology that allows animation and interactive menus in real time without the use of .gifs or frames is overly broad. A patent with the coding for Flash is pretty direct. I feel that something beyond just staking a claim to a concept should be required in order to get a patent. | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
·Comcast
| Re: Hmm...so... I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you're saying. I just keep going back to how and who will determine how narrowly the claims should be either drafted or construed.
Many years ago, the word "means" was narrowed down significantly in the US. That is, if you use the word means, it encompasses only the exact apparatus or method discussed in the spec. Until then, means encompassed all alternatives.
I suppose we could limit to the exact embodiment shown in the spec. I think it would be a disincentive to inventors though.
Regardless of all this, patent reform is slowly but surely happening, both in the prosecution and litigation areas. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Hmm...so... I guess it boils down to the people approving the patents to know where to draw the line. Too wide a berth and you have the problems we have now. Too narrow and, as you said, there is a lack of incentive to create. I am not a patent expert so I'm not the one who should make the call. That being said my layman's eyes have seen some pretty outrageous claims based on patents that even I consider ridiculous.
Patent reform is the starting point. Finding humans who aren't as fallible on giving just anybody that little piece of intellectual property gold is the tricky part. | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL | Re: Hmm...so... Agreed. But, don't even get me started on the patent examiners . . . | |
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Goober
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
·Comcast
| Re: Hmm...so... lol. Think about all the same reasons you can't find knowledgable tech people at Circuit City or Best Buy and you have the same reason (other than for a few exceptions) why you can't find very good examiners.
That's why I'm dubious about changing the patent system. Without more money you can't hire good examiners. And with more and more filings each year, you have fewer and fewer good examiners.
Language issues are not an insignificant problem either. | |
| | fldiver
Premium
join:1999-12-27
Jacksonville, FL
| Vonage is HORRID (I refer to their so called customer service); I would sooner use a walkie talkie than their service; switched to VIATALK and have never looked back..next year switching to CELL phone and eliminating home line altogether.
-Dan | |
| JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| No quick bankruptcy
There'll be no quick bankruptcy for Vonage. They have money in the bank, and are not burning it as quickly as in the past. They can survive for some time the way they're operating now.
As far as signing up, there's not much to lose there either. This is not Sunrocket, selling you 2 years of service. Vonage gets paid monthly, so the most that can be at risk is a partial month. | |
| | guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
 ·Verizon FIOS
·ViaTalk
| Re: No quick bankruptcy said by JohnA :There'll be no quick bankruptcy for Vonage. They have money in the bank, and are not burning it as quickly as in the past. They can survive for some time the way they're operating now. As far as signing up, there's not much to lose there either. This is not Sunrocket, selling you 2 years of service. Vonage gets paid monthly, so the most that can be at risk is a partial month. You should do some reading of the 10Q filings. VG's is close to a net worth of zero, long term debt is about what they now have for cash on hand. They have never ever made a profit and continue to lose tens of millions every quarter.
At the current cash burn, they will be out of cash in under 12 months, will have no means to borrow money and will STILL be cash flow negative.
As for the other poster of buying stock, you have 100% of the purchase to lose.
Today's upholding of the INJUNCTION, will reinstate the original injunction in 30 days, unless if VG gets some other judge to do a stay, but the options now are only the supreme court, nothing else
By the way, VG is still on the hook for a cash and royalties to Verizon, all that was done was sent back to the lower court to decide if there is any change in the amount as the original judgement did not define the 58 Million to a pro-ration of the three patents. It will probably be another 3-6 months to this is finally played out but there is Zero way VG can make it out alive , NONE | |
| peerimpact
join:2005-11-07
Londonderry, VT | The Skype Alternative I'm Considering a Skype phone and their Skype Unlimited service if Vonage tanks | |
| | tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Re: The Skype Alternative said by peerimpact :I'm Considering a Skype phone and their Skype Unlimited service if Vonage tanks Let us count the days before Skype's VOIP service gets sued out of existence as well. There's alot of waves in the VOIP industry of late.. mysterious FREE click to call services, new celebrity run VOIP work-around services, and free experimental providers such as Icall, Google's Grandcentral too.
If we take a few steps back and look at the big picture, main-stream middle of the road VOIP providers are getting shut out of business either by:
a. lawsuits
b. free providers with various ways of luring consumers away from PAID services
c. forcing increased costs associated with connecting to the PSTN (per minute fees)
d. anti-competitive broadband measures (packet preference) by isp's (who happen to be cable & telco with a vested interest in thwarting 3rd party voip)
The non deep pockets VOIP providers are leaving too much to chance with the anti-competitive workings of cable and telco gatekeepers of the broadband. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | For Vonage, the hits just keep on coming Guess they stepped on too many toes.
Smackdown Telco style now in effect.
Bye Bye Vonage. Maybe you can kamikaze one of them as you go down in flames. | |
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phoneboy3
@shawcable.net
 from:
amdace
| Why hate Vonage? Why hate Vonage? They singlehandedly brought VoIP awareness to the masses and inflicted a lot of pain on the telcos and gave them quite the wake up call.
Anyone who annoys the Telco's by offering something (gasp!) innovative is ok in my books! | |
| | guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
·ViaTalk
| Re: Why hate Vonage? said by phoneboy3 :
Why hate Vonage? They singlehandedly brought VoIP awareness to the masses and inflicted a lot of pain on the telcos and gave them quite the wake up call.
Wishful thinking on your part ...
Verizon has lost less than a percent or two of it landline business ... and in the last quarter, line losses actually stop and had a small gain in POTS
With over 200+ million US landlines, the number over VOIP customers is still VERY small , and by the looks of it will be getting smaller
As for Verizon "hurting", not a chance .. The Stock is up about 33% in the last year, they just increase the dividend all the while they fund the FIOS rollout and aggressive wireless network additions. | |
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DreamWraith
Premium
join:2004-04-07
Mount Vernon, WA
·Comcast
| Re: Why hate Vonage? percent or two? surely YOU have wishfull thinking. let me guess, this falls under the "99% of statistics are made up on the spot" clause, doesnt it?
Or do you claim to have actually pulled that 1 or 2 percent from somewhere *other* than your a**?
if there really *are* "200+" million land lines. then i would say they lost more than just a few million of those to voip of some kind.
hell, the company i work for no longer uses t1 phone lines. we have a voip provider for all 4000+ phone lines. each building has a voip server which communicates with an endpoint over our fiber connections.
Thats over 4000 lines lost in a single fell swoop. And with the cost savings, you can bet your arse that plenty of companies are following suit. | |
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GilbertMark
Premium
join:2001-05-02
Gilbert, AZ
·Cox HSI
| said by phoneboy3 :
Why hate Vonage? They singlehandedly brought VoIP awareness to the masses and inflicted a lot of pain on the telcos and gave them quite the wake up call.
Anyone who annoys the Telco's by offering something (gasp!) innovative is ok in my books!
Well that stupid Kill Bill song they have always used is my #1 reason. After more than 2 years I barf every time a Vonage commercial comes on.
Dead by December.....
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»hacktheiPhone.com | |
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JoeG4
join:2001-12-16
945941 | Re: Why hate Vonage? F*CKING A!
Well, Sprint and Verizon can rest assured that they're the last phone companies I'll ever want anything to do with.
I'm probably going to go the skypeout route next. That, or packet8. *sigh* I hate their codecs. | |
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Jackson5
@sterlingstudents.net | Re: Why hate Vonage? Vonage loses again...I don't think people other than those die hard Vonage fans will buy stocks and at the current trend, it will still go down until it reach zero then you lose all your money for buying 93 cents per share today. | |
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