 | | oh heck no go west virginia, illinois
It is better to have verizon stay than Frontier to take over, better for consumers all together | |
|
 |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4 | Re: oh heck no said by optemino:go west virginia, illinois It is better to have verizon stay than Frontier to take over, better for consumers all together Will anything, other than the FCC, prevent Verizon & Frontier going forward without West Virginia & Illinois?
If the FCC approves the deal, why not do the deal without those 2 states and add them in later after lobbying pressure changes their mind. | |
|
| |  AMDUSERPremium
join:2003-05-28
Earth
kudos:1
 ·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Re: oh heck no The way the deal is setup, all the states must approve, or no sale..
This was a little interesting though.. 'the effects of greater than anticipated competition requiring new pricing' [the Marketwatch article].
In substantially [90%+] all of Verizons WI operations, either Charter Communications or Time Warner Cable offers cable internet as fast [usually faster] than Verizon. [Soon to be Frontier..] | |
|
| PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR | said by optemino:It is better to have verizon stay than Frontier to take over How so?
As far as I'm concerned, it would be impossible for Frontier to do any worse than Verizon. There's a chance they may do better. | |
|
| |  darciliciousCyber LibrarianPremium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
 ·Frontier FiOS
| Re: oh heck no said by PDXPLT:said by optemino:It is better to have verizon stay than Frontier to take over How so? As far as I'm concerned, it would be impossible for Frontier to do any worse than Verizon. There's a chance they may do better. You say that as a non-FiOS customer; Frontier will NOT do as well in the video services arena -- they aren't even required to carry all the channels that Vz currently does thanks to the deal they negotiated with MACC, for example.
And if you've spent any time in the Frontier forum on this site, you'll see that they're not better at managing their DSL infrastructure so I'm not sure why you even think for a moment they could do better.
Oh, and I've never had to worry about caps the entire time I've been a Vz customer either (previously a GTE customer so I've been here for awhile).
Last but not least, Frontier has repeatedly stated that have no plans to expand FiOS beyond its current deployment.
So yeah, you keep those rose-colored glasses because it's all you're going to get out of this deal. | |
|
| | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR | Re: oh heck no I don't care about video services from Verizon or Frontier; I have my choice of either DirecTV, Dish, or OTA. 'don't care about phone service, either; I have many choices of cell phone provider.
Verizon refused to deploy broadband to about half of their subscribers in the region in question, including my neighborhood. Frontier's track record is to deploy broadband to over 90% of their subscribers. Even "badly managed" DSL, offered to almost all subscribers, would be an improvement over zero (Verizon). It's not a question of rose-colored glasses: it's just that you can do worse than zero, and Zero is what Verizon is for roughly half of the subscribers that are up for sale.
As for existing FIOS customers, they're all in Comcast territory anyway, so if the worst case comes to pass, they still have non-Frontier options. 'hard to feel sorry for those that have to "settle" for DOCSIS3.0. | |
|
 woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | hmmmm.... If this goes through, and Verizon once again shafts the people with their abuse of the reverse morrris trust I have lost all faith in our governments ability to create an equitable deal for all concerned.
--
BlooMe | |
|
|  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: hmmmm.... You say it as if there's a possibility that Frontier won't implode and the people won't get shafted. | |
|
| | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: hmmmm.... No I am saying that it is highly likely they will implode. and everyone will get shafted.
--
BlooMe | |
|
|
| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo VZ is conducting legal business. Your hatred is more appropriately placed at Frontier and the regulators that may allow the deal if Frontier is actually incapable of handling the acquisition. | |
|
| | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
1 edit | Re: Boo Yes their hands are clean, and all they do is legal, I just love how they use the "reverse morris trust" so skillfully ripping us off of their fair share of taxes. For this reason alone, it shouldn't go through. This is why the country is in the state it is. I don't want to here they just pass it along. Do we get the same benefits as them? The corps have the same rights now that a citizen does, so shouldn't we be able to screw the government out of taxes also?
--
BlooMe | |
|
| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo Ripping you off of their fair share of taxes? Kinda difficult to evade taxes if no laws are being violated. Maybe your anger should be pointed at Congress and the courts that allowed the Reverse Morris Trust to come about and continue to languish.
Nothing is stopping you from most efficiently handling your taxable assets. In fact, it's quite foolish not to effectively plan your taxable estate IMO. | |
|
| | | | woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: Boo Actually I do quite well in that area, but I do feel that there is a minimum that needs to be paid, for the "government" to function. Roads, bridges, police, fire, medical, national disaster. Yes I know all the loop holes, but choose not use them all . If I remember, I never got nor taken a tax cut to do anything. Never got a subsidy to wire a given area, and easement on property taxes etc. So that is just a bunch of hooey. The reason that they are getting the attention they are is case in point. This is just a scam to dump their debt on someone else. If Frontier couldn't declare bankruptcy or other corps couldn't, Verizon would have a really tough time dump their shit.
--
BlooMe | |
|
| | | | | | said by openbox9:Ripping you off of their fair share of taxes? Kinda difficult to evade taxes if no laws are being violated. Maybe your anger should be pointed at Congress and the courts that allowed the Reverse Morris Trust to come about and continue to languish. Nothing is stopping you from most efficiently handling your taxable assets. In fact, it's quite foolish not to effectively plan your taxable estate IMO. Reverse morris trust was never meant to be used the way Verizon is using it. They're exploiting a loophole in the law (likely inserted by lobbyists) to their benefit, and you know this. You simply refuse to acknowledge it. | |
|
| | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo Verizon is doing what is in its best interest, just as I do for myself, and I assume you do for yourself. If I legally have the ability to dump less profitable assets and minimize my tax burden, you can bet I'm doing the same...."loophole" or not. | |
|
| | | | | |  SnowymIRC unix.ro UnderNetPremium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:5
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Boo said by openbox9:Verizon is doing what is in its best interest, just as I do for myself, and I assume you do for yourself. If I legally have the ability to dump less profitable assets and minimize my tax burden, you can bet I'm doing the same...."loophole" or not. Uhm, filing bankruptcy would accomplish much of that too.
No loophole either, perfectly legit & legal.
Are you starting to see the failure of a "if it's legal..." life philosophy? | |
|
| | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo Filing bankruptcy isn't as easy or clean as you allude to. | |
|
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo Then let's return to your point of "if it's legal...". Legitimate reasons for filing bankruptcy exist. Bankruptcies are in the hands of the courts. As long as the courts effectively do their jobs, the detriment to society can be minimized. Exploiting the tax code harms no one but the taxing authorities, which if truly affected by "loopholes" would fix the code. So what's wrong with the philosophy? | |
|
| | | | | | | | | SnowymIRC unix.ro UnderNetPremium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:5 Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
·Clearwire Wireless
1 edit | Re: Boo said by openbox9:Then let's return to your point of "if it's legal...". Let's return to your original post that I originally replied to.
said by openbox9:Verizon is doing what is in its best interest, just as I do for myself, and I assume you do for yourself. If I legally have the ability to dump less profitable assets and minimize my tax burden, you can bet I'm doing the same...."loophole" or not. Do you dispute there is a legal process (bankruptcy) that allows a person to dump debt?
Of course you don't.
But according to your life philosophy, if it lowers debt & it's legal, you haven't any issues with such activity? | |
|
| | | Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4 | said by woody7:Yes their hands are clean, and all they do is legal, I just love how they use the "reverse morris trust" so skillfully ripping us off of their fair share of taxes. Corporate taxes are ultimately paid for by customers anyway. So how exactly are you being ripped off? When will the average man in the street ever learn that corporate taxes do not affect the shareholders, but only raise prices and affect the customer? The "tax the corporations" cry by the anti-corporate crowd & politicians is just laughed at by shareholders and corporate accountants. | |
|
| | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo Like you, I'm always amazed that everyone is so gung-ho to tax corporations even more than they already are. | |
|
| | | | | | | Re: Boo said by openbox9:Like you, I'm always amazed that everyone is so gung-ho to tax corporations even more than they already are. Telecommunication companies in America receive huge tax subsidies in the form of right-of-way and the '96 Telecom Act's subsidies meant for nation-wide FTTH buildout.
Your problem is you think corporations are to be coddled, regardless of their effects on consumers. | |
|
| | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Boo I'm not coddling anything or anyone, but TK's point still stands. Levying additional corporate taxes against those "big, bad, money grubbing, fat cat corporate entities" doesn't affect the people that most common citizens believe that it does. | |
|
| | | | | |  joebarnhartPaxio evangelist
join:2005-12-15
Santa Clara, CA
1 edit | Taxing corporations turns them into surrogate tax collectors to levy more government tax on consumers. The company treats tax as another cost of doing business and just passes it on. In a sense, corporations don't pay tax at all -- their customers do.
Now are you still eager to pile on punitive taxes on all those evil corporations?  | |
|
| | | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR | said by Romney2012:When will the average man in the street ever learn that corporate taxes do not affect the shareholders, but only raise prices and affect the customer? When the "average man in the street" forgets what he learned in Economics 101, I guess.
In a competitive market, increases in the cost to produce a good (e.g., a tax) are offset partially by higher prices, and partially by reduced profit.
Prove something different and they'd probably give you a Nobel Prize in Economics. | |
|
| | | | | Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4 | Re: Boo said by PDXPLT:In a competitive market, increases in the cost to produce a good (e.g., a tax) are offset partially by higher prices, and partially by reduced profit. Are you claiming that Landline phone business is a competitive market?
--
Are you happy with your rep in Washington, DC? | |
|
| | | | | | | said by PDXPLT:said by Romney2012:When will the average man in the street ever learn that corporate taxes do not affect the shareholders, but only raise prices and affect the customer? When the "average man in the street" forgets what he learned in Economics 101, I guess. In a competitive market, increases in the cost to produce a good (e.g., a tax) are offset partially by higher prices, and partially by reduced profit. Prove something different and they'd probably give you a Nobel Prize in Economics. in the current year of 2010, the average man on the street probably never learned it in the first place! (if even took the class) | |
|
| | | | | | said by Romney2012:said by woody7:Yes their hands are clean, and all they do is legal, I just love how they use the "reverse morris trust" so skillfully ripping us off of their fair share of taxes. Corporate taxes are ultimately paid for by customers anyway. So how exactly are you being ripped off? When will the average man in the street ever learn that corporate taxes do not affect the shareholders, but only raise prices and affect the customer? The "tax the corporations" cry by the anti-corporate crowd & politicians is just laughed at by shareholders and corporate accountants. The market is noncompetitive, and the incumbents already price their services at what the market will bear. Taxes have no effect on their pricing, since people are already paying the maximum they can afford. | |
|
| | | | | | said by Romney2012:said by woody7:Yes their hands are clean, and all they do is legal, I just love how they use the "reverse morris trust" so skillfully ripping us off of their fair share of taxes. Corporate taxes are ultimately paid for by customers anyway. So how exactly are you being ripped off? When will the average man in the street ever learn that corporate taxes do not affect the shareholders, but only raise prices and affect the customer? The "tax the corporations" cry by the anti-corporate crowd & politicians is just laughed at by shareholders and corporate accountants. yes the American people should just roll over and let big biz do things however they want to (zero tax and zero regulation).
recent history of deregulation and aftermath has shown that to be a wonderful strategy for the American people and way of life!
I mean, if it's not broke, don't fix it! | |
|
| | | | | joebarnhartPaxio evangelist
join:2005-12-15
Santa Clara, CA
1 edit | Re: Boo You really don't get it.
Tax the big oil company. Really screw them! Then watch what happens to the price of gasoline and heating oil.
Tax the banks! Screw the banks, they are filthy greedy b*stards anyway! Then watch what happens to your checking account fees, your home mortgage and line of credit.
Tax the evil cellphone networks! They're a bunch of rip-off artists! Then watch your cell phone bill climb and see if you ever get any network upgrades.
I will say it again, slowly...
Businesses do not pay taxes. They COLLECT taxes from their customers on behalf of the government.
It really is that simple. Why do you think big-spending politicians love to whip up the masses with these dog-and-pony shows like the current Wall Street sideshow? It's easy money for politicians. | |
|
| | | | | | Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4
1 edit | Re: Boo said by joebarnhart:Businesses do not pay taxes. They COLLECT taxes from their customers on behalf of the government.It really is that simple. Why do you think big-spending politicians love to whip up the masses with these dog-and-pony shows like the current Wall Street sideshow? It's easy money for politicians. Politicians dating back to the days of Huey Long in Louisiana and even before have exploited the masses with their populist drivel. And it still works today - just showing that the average voter is still as dumb as a rock.
--
Are you happy with your rep in Washington, DC? | |
|
| | |
| | |
See 18 replies to this post |
| | IL Commerce Commission Well for those who think that this deal will fall through here in IL might want to look towards WV and FCC as the stopping point. The IL Commerce Commission (I.C.C.) is fairly well known for their Corporational co-operation.... ever here of the phrase ($$ talks BS walks)....
And If the I.C.C. does go w/ the judges recommendation in this deal... there is this that is currently going through IL Legislative corridors. »www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x438586···proposal This piece of legislation will have a lasting effect on those of us consumers here in IL. | |
|
| | | Re: IL Commerce Commission you guys are screwed expect Frontier to file chapter11 or 13 within a year and they wont expand any services either have a nice life w/crap sorry but expect the worse in this case cause verizon is the only company that has the money to expand a service. SORRY | |
|
| | WV has some crazy union stuff going on They might be able to at least slow the transition. WV is like no other state - in many bad ways, a few good ways, and a ton of weird ways. Most of the citizens have little or nothing to lose, so unexpected things happen in WV. | |
|
|
approval from:
Bubba Rock 
| Re: WV has some crazy union stuff going on and we like it that way!!! | |
|
| | Haven't kept up with this, but....... I haven't kept real close track of this topic, although it does/will effect me some day, maybe, but it's not sounding to good!!
Not particularly a Verizon fan, read that as big conglomerate, but I know they will step on toes and do just about what ever it takes, to make cash!!
--
The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ | |
|
| | how much sluch money did it cost? I wonder how much lobbying money went into the hands of Washington State legislators for the approval. Nothing gets done without corruption and nothing corrupts nicer than money. 3 megabit dsl doesn't even qualify as broadband under that new scam of a broadband reform plan which will end up benefitting the most wealthy telecoms & cablecos in the end, because they have the monopoly on the top markets. 99.9% of the fiber optic tier-1 goes their way, and nowhere else. Time to get those tier-1 companies to deploy deep fiber into every 300 square miles of the country & remove geography as a big barrier to entry for minority carriers.
Verizon, you want to sell those lines to froniter? Fine, but you can NOT offload ONE CENT of debt to the company. Let them pay FAIR MARKET VALUE for the copper network which isn't really worth a whole lot. | |
|
 rideboarderwelcome to the socialPremium
join:2003-07-28
Snohomish, WA | I already expected this to happen... Which is why I switched over to Comcast last weekend. I do NOT want to be stuck with frontier. | |
|
|  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5
·Frontier FiOS
| Re: I already expected this to happen... said by rideboarder:Which is why I switched over to Comcast last weekend. I do NOT want to be stuck with frontier. So how exactly would you be "stuck" with Frontier if Comcast is currently available in your area. Frontier would not legally be able to charge you an ETF if they changed the terms of your existing contract (if any), and Verizon I believed changed their contract a while back that in the event that your territory changed ownership, you would not be bound by an ETF anyways.
Just admit that you changed not because you didn't want to be stuck with Fronter, but because you didn't know what was going to happen with Frontier. Which is a perfectly acceptable reason, just not what you stated. | |
|
| | Noooo! I guess it's not a huge loss since Qwest probably has a bigger DSL footprint than Verizon in WA anyways (can't get FIOS because I'm in a Qwest area), but it's still disappointing to see my state fall for Frontier/Verizon's scam. | |
|
morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Verizon is scum Verizon is scum for their continued use of this tax loophole. Congress needs to close it asap before any more people die from the incompetent companies Verizon is leaving its customers with. | |
|
|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
| | Yuck I would just assume going back to 2 cans and a string before I'll ever consider giving frontier a penny. | |
|
| | Health care bill simularities I see WV and IL as the " Louisiana purchase" of this deal. Both states will get "special" consideration and promises. The states that agreed early will be left out... | |
|
| | No Need For Frontier. At least some of us who have a different choice other than Verizon/Frontier really don't care that much but the poor folks who have Verizon as the only choice will be stuck with Frontier's problems.
Around here Verizon bought GTE and they really haven't upgraded anything, all the phone boxes on the streets still say "GTE".
There's still no DSL or Fios nor Cable (around here) for that matter but we do have fiber optic internet available thanks to the county PUD which offers their system for high speed (100MBps) internet, TV and phone service. | |
|
|
 bencPremium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
·Charter
| Those Who Don't Study History Are Doomed To Repeat It. See the subject line of this post.
Fortunately, I don't live in a Verizon area, nor do I subscribe to DSL. Although I hope that it won't go through in IL for my father's sake, since he subscribes to Verizon DSL. However, I'm not going to hold my breath, due to the sorry state of affairs that is the IL government. | |
|
 funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Question: Are these deals all dependent upon one another? Are these deals all dependent upon one another? If one state turns it down, do they all fail? Anybody know? | |
|
|  tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3
·Comcast
| Re: Question: Are these deals all dependent upon one another? Yes, The original terms stated it was all or nothing, the deal MUST include approval of ALL the states, FCC, and FTC (plus pass brief review by other agentcys (SEC, etc.)
However verizon would likely just restate the terms and sell any holdout states seperately, if the majority approve.
Frontier COULD choose to backout (not likely, at this point) if the deal changes (even more) unfavorably.
verizon NEEDS to sell to get cash to meet their Fios commitments in the remaining territories, and has already taken a difficult to reverse step of creating and funding Spinco (great choice of names) | |
|
| | Verizon & Frontier I live in WV and I tell you Verizon has done nothing for this sate all verizon has done is take the money from this state and the other sates verizon don't want and invest all the money into there larger markets !Our phone service is so bad that if this deal goes through I don't see how Frontier is going to fix it they have neither the funds or resources. My whole neighborhood has formal complaints against verizon through the WV PSC and they tell us there is plenty more complaints I think verizon should be held responsible and made to fix this mess before they unload it on Frontier. My neighbor told me that our phone lines has been there since 1958! | |
|
| Reviews:
·Comcast
 ·Comcast Digital ..
| Re: Verizon & Frontier Frontier can NOT do what they said they will do. Someone I know works for verizon and said they Have been told that frontier will more than likely fail in west virginia, Verizon promised a couple years ago ,after the state legislature was going to pass a bill requiring fiber to be deployed throughout the state, to bring broadband to most of the state by now.
Well it still hasn't done so. DSL is a joke. For the average joe dsl is fine but for people wanting to stream live radio or tv or download movies on itunes it's not good enough. You have people in other states such as pa, maryland, and the northeast getting FIOS but they didn't even try to in west virginia.
The state legislature and congress need to enact some sort of legislation requiring companies like verizon to wire their whole territory for next generation services such as fios by 2020 with 80% required by 2015 even if it means raising the service fee some to help pay for it. | |
|
|
|
|
·
Really no supprise
