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Watch Today's FCC's Hearing on Net Neutrality, Muni-Broadband
Regardless of which side of the conversation you're on, today may just be the biggest day we've ever seen in the history of the FCC. The agency is of course set to approve not only on historic Title-II based rules governing net neutrality, but will also be taking the very first steps toward dismantling ISP-crafted protectionist state laws hindering towns and cities from making their own broadband decisions. The FCC open meeting begins at 10:30 this morning (Eastern time), and those eager to experience the hyperbole in real time can watch the meeting here at the FCC website or over at CSPAN.
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quisp65
join:2003-05-03
San Diego, CA

quisp65

Member

Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

EPB want's to expand fiber to the home to areas outside of their electrical grid in Chattanooga but say's it will not subsidize this buildup off of Chatanooga's electrical prices, but I don't see if they will subsidize it off of Chattanooga's ISP service.

It would seem if these people want fiber gig service to their home then they should try to get their own electric company to provide service, otherwise their pulling funds in some way or another from Chattanooga. Not sure this law is all clear cut as being bad but just a protection in keeping a utility in not going outside of it's scope of service that was agreed upon.

I get the ISPs lobby and such, but so does FedEx & UPS regarding areas the Post Office competes. I personally don't think the FCC is going to be successful in overturning state laws.
JPL
Premium Member
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA

JPL

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

said by quisp65:

I get the ISPs lobby and such, but so does FedEx & UPS regarding areas the Post Office competes. I personally don't think the FCC is going to be successful in overturning state laws.

I agree with this. Regardless of what someone thinks of such laws, the question really is: does the federal government have the authority to prevent states from passing these laws? I'm not sure they do. Are they bad laws? In some cases, clearly they were created with the intent of keeping entrenched powers in place. But I have to ask: so what? While such laws are clearly harmful, there's nothing saying that states can't pass stupid laws. I'm not sure it's within the FCC's charter to overturn them. I think that provision, if it is included in this announcement by the FCC, would get challenged in court, and I think the FCC would lose.
quisp65
join:2003-05-03
San Diego, CA

quisp65

Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

yea... I agree. I have trouble in determining if their is a legitimate reason for Tennessee's law, but in the end that issue is irrelevant, and it's the right of the states in determining the legitimacy of those issues.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

The government uses coercion tactics. While in some or many cases they can't "overrule" states rights, they simply attach riders to federal funds to "move" the states in the intended direction. One of the insidious things that has occurred since personal federal taxes.

Obamacare is a perfect example. Federal School aid and shoving common core down everyone's throats another.

chip89
Premium Member
join:2012-07-05
Columbia Station, OH

chip89

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

Common core is so stupid! Kids have to take so many really hard tests for 3 weeks every year now!

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

TechyDad

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

And when they aren't taking the tests, they need to study for the tests. If the teachers focus on anything but the tests, the kids' test grades will slip and the teachers will be held responsible. This is the whole goal of Common Core - to say that our kids are failing, blame teachers, and allow corporate interests (e.g. Pearson) to profit more off our kids.

With two kids in public schools, my wife and I are quite vocal against Common Core. Our kids have refused the tests for a couple of years now. (With push back at times, but it is your right to do so.)
tired_runner
Premium Member
join:2000-08-25
CT
·Frontier FiberOp..

tired_runner to chip89

Premium Member

to chip89
I do homework with my fourth grader often. Common core is definitely not a stupid thing. The material is what I remember it being when I went to elementary, and then some.

The bureaucratic institutions tasked with ensuring the kids pass the test is the problem. It's easier to shove material down everyone's throats instead of addressing fundamental problems in the classroom.
JPL
Premium Member
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA

1 recommendation

JPL

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

said by tired_runner:

I do homework with my fourth grader often. Common core is definitely not a stupid thing. The material is what I remember it being when I went to elementary, and then some.

I really don't want to delve into something this off-topic, but felt compelled to respond to this. I think we need to separate the term 'common core' with 'Singapore math', which is the math instruction that most common core standards have adopted. I can't speak to NY, but I can say without any reservation that Singapore math - what is being taught in just about every school here in PA - is most definitely NOT what I learned in elementary school. I saw utter frustration in my then first grader's eyes while she tried to come to terms with why she needed to fill in the stupid blocks just to do simple addition. What's meant to be a teaching aid to kids is nothing but a hindrance.

I finally told her 'you know what, just do the addition, and fill in the blocks this way.' The 'aid' became just another step in a process that didn't help in any way with her doing the math. The thing is, and what I object most stridently with, with regard to this math instruction, is a) the total deemphasis on memorization and b) the notion that the process is more important than the solution.

On item a - simply put, kids at that age are sponges. They can memorize facts like nothing else. So by all means... get rid of the multiplication tables! And instead force them to use abstract concepts that don't really develop until they're much older. Kids at that age generally can't handle the abstraction that they're now being asked to employ, and are forced to not use the memorization for which their brains are perfectly suited at this age.

With item b, a quick explanation. Yes, process is important. In some cases, the way you come to an answer is more important than the answer itself. But this same daughter was getting the right answers with addition and subtraction started failing her tests in school because she didn't fill in the stupid blocks correctly!

I've also said that MOST PA schools are teaching this nonsense. But not all. My three youngest (grades 4, 2, and K) are now in a private Catholic school which actually has the slogan on their sign of 'Uncommon Core'. They focus on traditional classical education. The adoption of common core, along with the Nazi-like obsession with food nanny-statism were the final straws. On that last one, this new school that they're in has only one rule with regard to food - it can't be anything too messy because they lease the space and since the run on a shoe-string budget any additional hefty cleaning bills they have to take on are a problem. They leave it up to the parents' discretion over what's right for the kids on this front. What a concept!

My two oldest kids are in High School and were thankfully spared this nonsense (although the change in focus on the AP history exam that came about because of these same standards affected my oldest, and will soon affect child #2).
tired_runner
Premium Member
join:2000-08-25
CT
·Frontier FiberOp..

tired_runner

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

They taught my fourth grader Singapore math in some lessons as well. I sat down and explained it the old fashion way.

In my opinion, kids these days are built around what I call The Pill Effect. If the kid is too stupid or undisciplined to sit down and learn and the parent(s) refuse to help them, that kid is awarded with curriculum tailored to his/her abilities and in the process, making it dumber for everyone else.

The material used to teach is excellent. The execution of the lesson is what's broken. And I personally blame a bureaucratic system busy covering their collective behinds at the expense of a fair, fighting chance for those who truly want to learn.
JPL
Premium Member
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA

1 edit

1 recommendation

JPL

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

Just have to seriously disagree with you on this. My kids are neither too stupid, nor undisciplined, and we are extremely engaged parents when it comes to their school work. I know one of the normal talking points by advocates of these standards is that 'well parents are upset because they're going to find out that their kids aren't as smart as they think they are.' Which is what it sounds like what you're basically saying. Which is a slur. And it's largely untrue. It's certainly untrue in my house.

When my daughter was having stomach pains every time I told her to do her homework, it got me and my wife wondering why. We probed. We asked. We found out that she was having issues with the fact that she started getting failing grades on these quizzes and homework because, despite doing the math correctly, and getting the right answer, because she didn't fill in the teaching aid exactly right, she got the answer wrong. She couldn't understand why she had to fill in the stupid blocks, or draw the stupid lines, when she KNEW how to do the addition. And you know what? I couldn't come up with a good answer for her. And lest you think my wife and I are just some uneducated rubes with regard to this - I have a degree in engineering, and my wife is an accredited math teacher. We're not disengaged, nor are we looking to make excuses for our kids. We hold them to exceptionally high standards, and expect them to perform. It is this method that I find, sorry, utterly idiotic.

I also have to disagree that the fault is just with the execution. I've seen the material. I've tried to help my kids through it. It's crap. It wasn't the instruction that I had issue with - it was the material itself. I have no idea how the stuff was being taught, to be honest. I based my assessment only on what was in her text book.
tired_runner
Premium Member
join:2000-08-25
CT
·Frontier FiberOp..

tired_runner

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

My fourth grader took the ELA last year and passed. And as with anything high-stakes, there was initial uneasiness leading up to the exam.

I wasn't overly worried it. We put in the work during the semester ensuring homework was completed, concepts were understood, and the few areas where we found challenges, we took on the necessary aid to get through it.

My fourth grader also attends one of the worst-ranking public schools in the area presently due to temporary circumstances. When I say kids are too stupid and/or undisciplined, there are good reasons for that. I also don't accept that as an excuse for parents to advocate against the common core and corresponding tests.

There needs to be a benchmark with the education system. Else, you get under performing schools using demographics and insufficient funding as excuses for it. Personally, common core is a step in the right direction.

workablob
join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX

workablob to elefante72

Member

to elefante72
said by elefante72:

The government uses coercion tactics. While in some or many cases they can't "overrule" states rights, they simply attach riders to federal funds to "move" the states in the intended direction. One of the insidious things that has occurred since personal federal taxes.

Obamacare is a perfect example. Federal School aid and shoving common core down everyone's throats another.

Tactics like tying federal funds to adoption of a 55Mph speed limit.

You are correct.

Blob

Mertco
@uen.org

Mertco to JPL

Anon

to JPL
One could argue that the state is overstepping its authority in passing such laws. Heavy handed government oversight doesn't always come from the feds. If a city want to make their own decisions about municipal broadband services then why would the state fell it needs to prevent that.

Could this actually be a case where the feds are really looking out the little guy?
JPL
Premium Member
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA

1 recommendation

JPL

Premium Member

Re: Trying to understand the EPB situation in Chattanooga

said by Mertco :

One could argue that the state is overstepping its authority in passing such laws. Heavy handed government oversight doesn't always come from the feds. If a city want to make their own decisions about municipal broadband services then why would the state fell it needs to prevent that.

Could this actually be a case where the feds are really looking out the little guy?

Yeah, I'm sympathetic with these municipalities. I think the law in TN is obnoxious. But as Pai correctly raised, this law was passed damn near unanimously by a democrat controlled legislature and signed by a republican governor. It's really hard, in light of that, to make the case that this was an example of one legislator who was in the back pocket of big, bad, ISP. This is the FCC basically saying that they know more about what the interests are of the people of TN than the elected representatives of that state.

Point is, there is a system for handling this. It's called state law! If the law really is that obnoxious to the people of TN, then it's incumbent on them to elect representatives who will strike down the law. Yes, it's really just that simple. The FCC doesn't automatically have the authority to step in and upend state law like that.

Now, the federal government CAN do that. They should do so lightly, but they certainly can do that. But HOW do they do that? With legislation! If CONGRESS were to grant this authority to the FCC my position would be different. But as far as I can tell, section 706 of the law that they're using as justification for such a move is a serious abuse of that provision. It was never intended to give the FCC, in my view, this much power.

Since there was no law passed by Congress giving the FCC this authority, guess what? THEY DON'T HAVE IT. My jaw just hits the floor when I think how readily many people are to bend or even break our constitutional system of government because of some good intention. There is a system to handle all this. It's just being ignore for sake of political expediency. And when you do that the entire system suffers.

This provision will go to the courts and will (I believe) get struck down.

One final point - you mentioned that a municipality shouldn't be stopped by the heavy hand of the state. But again, as Pai correctly pointed out, municipal governments are extensions of state governments. State law governs what these municipalities do. It is a totally proper role for a state to decide what is legal and what isn't in the municipalities of that state. Likewise, and like I said, if Congress were to pass a law giving the FCC the authority to do this, then the state would be subservient to the will of the federal government. Again, totally proper. But a federal agency that is an extension of the executive branch doesn't have the authority to just assume it can do this, all without requisite legislation.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to quisp65

Member

to quisp65
There is nothing stopping EPB from splitting EPB Fiber off into it's own separate entity and expanding their service foot print. The law is more about keeping power companies and municipalities from expanding their reaches not about preventing the expansion of fiber optic service.

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

2 edits

Packeteers

Premium Member

taking bets here

$1 says they will screw it up (forgive my cynicism)

by either being vague enough for ISP's to drive a truck through,
or leaving a specific loop hole in for ISP's to exploit.
either way, little about today matters as we'll still suffer
bipartisan bickering in the house/senate
and years of legal challenges by ISP's.

all these jokers have to do is stall till a
new president appoints a new FCC board,
and america as a nation gets nothing done.

UPDATE: here's the loophole the FCC lawyer just spelled out;
traffic that may impact ISP network management and abuse.
my fear is ISP's may use this to go after p2p/torrent traffic.

telcodad
MVM
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ

telcodad

MVM

Everything you need to know about today's FCC vote (but were afraid to ask)

Something to read while we wait:

Your guide to net neutrality: Everything you need to know about today’s FCC vote
By Brian Fung, The Washington Post - February 26, 2015
»www.washingtonpost.com/b ··· cc-vote/
telcodad

telcodad

MVM

Re: Everything you need to know about today's FCC vote (but were afraid to ask)

And also something to watch:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· OEoRrHyU

Trimline
Premium Member
join:2004-10-24
Windermere, FL

Trimline

Premium Member

Wow - Just passed!

3 to 2 (party lines)
geofftech
Premium Member
join:2000-08-02
Philadelphia, PA

geofftech

Premium Member

Re: Wow - Just passed!

Oh YEAAAHH!!

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY

Packeteers to Trimline

Premium Member

to Trimline
most forget that a year ago we though it would be 2 to 3 against - you forget wheeler is a republican, this is why today's vote was so remarkable.
JPL
Premium Member
join:2007-04-04
Downingtown, PA

JPL

Premium Member

Re: Wow - Just passed!

said by Packeteers:

most forget that a year ago we though it would be 2 to 3 against - you forget wheeler is a republican, this is why today's vote was so remarkable.

Um what? What's your source on that? He's listed with a D after his name on the cspan feed. The only affiliation that I'm aware of is the one that indicates he was appointed by a democrat. Given how widely endorsed he was by the Obama administration... I don't think he's a republican.

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

Packeteers

Premium Member

Re: Wow - Just passed!

I donno, it seemed a done deal a year ago that wheeler (the swing vote) would vote against title2/opentype legislation. over the summer we had wheelers "modified" proposal, and finally only a few months ago he finally changed his tune and supported unlimited access.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

TechyDad

Premium Member

Re: Wow - Just passed!

Well, they tried passing weak Net Neutrality rules that would have essentially done nothing, but Verizon decided that even weak rules were too strong and (over the objections of the other large ISPs) sued. Verizon got the rules struck down, but at the cost of setting a path towards Title II.

So it seems as though Wheeler might not have really wanted Title II, but Verizon forced him into this corner.

RyanThaDude
Indiana's No. 1 Zero
join:2004-01-24
Walkerton, IN

RyanThaDude

Member

As much as I want...

...net neutrality and as much as I have been pushing for it, I'm starting to grow skeptical due to not knowing what Wheeler has up his sleeve considering it's 300+ pages of whatever has never been released publicly. Sure, the key points of what we want will more than likely be there, but what else? When has the government actually had our best interests? For what we know if this goes through there could be a crap load of taxes, and all data must be routed through the NSA. That's the crap that scares me. I guess at this point all we can really do is hope (and pray if you're the religious type) that the government is actually looking out for us.

Spiderman865
join:2005-12-27
Joliet, IL

Spiderman865

Member

Re: As much as I want...

said by RyanThaDude:

...net neutrality and as much as I have been pushing for it, I'm starting to grow skeptical due to not knowing what Wheeler has up his sleeve considering it's 300+ pages of whatever has never been released publicly. Sure, the key points of what we want will more than likely be there, but what else? When has the government actually had our best interests? For what we know if this goes through there could be a crap load of taxes, and all data must be routed through the NSA. That's the crap that scares me. I guess at this point all we can really do is hope (and pray if you're the religious type) that the government is actually looking out for us.

Government looking out for us?...HA! Just more government intervention is what this is.

nounintended
@charter.com

nounintended to RyanThaDude

Anon

to RyanThaDude
Be afraid, be very afraid...

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY

Packeteers

Premium Member

moved


IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Net Neutrality APPROVED!

Just saw a tweet from the consumerist that Net Neutratlity was approved.