What It Takes To Run Fiber In Rural America Jaguar Communications fights a long and difficult battle... ISP Planet has an interesting read on a smaller, Minnesota-based ISP named Jaguar Commuications that's building a GPON-based fiber network in rural Minnesota. Jaguar founder Donny Smith is in part using loans from the US Department of Agriculture's rural broadband program. The story outlines just how difficult it is to build your own network in a market that is now dominated by major providers with the lobbying muscle to bend regulatory policy in their favor. A little anti-competitiveness never hurts, either: The company started laying fiber in the first half of 2001. It attempted to build more fiber but was denied access to a key manhole by Qwest. The details are complex but the state PUC summed up the situation in a later statement by noting, "Qwest failed to provide the service in a timely manner and cannot blame the CLEC. The incident is a case of Qwest discriminating against a wholesale customer in favor of its retail arm." Jaguar also faced a mountain of bureaucratic process. The ISP needed approval from: the Minnesota State Historical Preservation Office, the US Army Corps of Engineers, the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) Trails and Waterways Division, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) Division of Lands and Minerals, each county's soil and water conservation district, and 103 townships and cities in the coverage area.
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  MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 |  Stick-to-it-ness
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Pretty Fly for a White Guy™ | |
| | | Umm hello any company, large er small would have to jump through the same hoops.
Quit crying! If you can't take the heat......... | |
|  | | | Re: Umm hello Yeah just have your litany of think tanks coin some pseudo-science, send your cadre of thirty-seven lobbyists out to cuddle legislators, and get thyself some regulatory certainty!
Bunch of wimps. | |
| | | | | Re: Umm hello Yeah, they got $4.6 million in seed money from Uncle Sam by way of taxpayers and now they want a free pass along the rest of the way too? | |
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1 edit | Re: Umm hello Yeah seriously. If they had any skillz, they'd convince Uncle Sam to subsidize the entire build out, protect them from competition, and make them wholly immune to the rule of law.
Pathetic. | |
| | | | |  jslikThat just happenedPremium
join:2006-03-17 | Re: Umm hello said by Karl Bode:Yeah seriously. If they had any skillz, they'd convince Uncle Sam to subsidize the entire build out, protect them from competition, and make them wholly immune to the rule of law. Pathetic. You forgot "and end up not building it"
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If they told you wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them?
-"Planes, Trains & Automobiles" | |
| | | | | |  james
join:2001-02-26
CWCville USA | Re: Umm hello But... that would be dishonest, and grounds for getting tarred and feathered! Wouldn't it? | |
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1 edit | said by jslik:You forgot " and end up not building it" Isn't that what Verizon, Qwest, AT&T, etc. has done consistently over and over in the past? They don't want to build it because they say nobody wants it, but someone else builds something, they start losing subscribers, then they lobby to government to pass laws preventing the roll-out, then still don't build anything...  
On a side note, reading over cable commission meeting minutes is interesting. In my town, Time Warner Cable never intended to offer cable internet, and only started offering it when the city stated that it was required to renew the franchise agreement. Unfortunately now that the franchise agreement is signed, Time Warner has the city by the balls. I'm willing to bet that another reason that they chose to offer it is because of the bundle deals with DirecTV and DSL, hence in some ways competition is a good thing, but if you're not a big player in the business and are a smaller ISP, large corporations will try to legislate you out of business, which is unfortunate, and shows a very corrupt government. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | jslikThat just happenedPremium
join:2006-03-17 | said by whiteyonenh: On a side note, reading over cable commission meeting minutes is interesting. In my town, Time Warner Cable never intended to offer cable internet, and only started offering it when the city stated that it was required to renew the franchise agreement. Hm, I'd be curious to see how that worked as the FCC in 2002 declared cable internet an information service, not subject to the franchise....
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If they told you wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them?
-"Planes, Trains & Automobiles" | |
| | | | | | | |  JoeG4
join:2001-12-16
945941 | Re: Umm hello Before they spend billions on deploying fiber all over rural america, why don't they put it everywhere else first? | |
| | | | | | | | | | said by jslik:Hm, I'd be curious to see how that worked as the FCC in 2002 declared cable internet an information service, not subject to the franchise.... The franchise agreement renewal was due prior to 2002. | |
| | | | | | | | | jslikThat just happenedPremium
join:2006-03-17 | Re: Umm hello said by whiteyonenh:The franchise agreement renewal was due prior to 2002. Ah, makes sense. Your earlier point brings up a potential problem? of franchising, which is the length of the the term. Considering these are 10-15 year agreements, the city/commission (and the company, for that matter) better be sure that they can live with anything signed for that length of time.
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If they told you wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them?
-"Planes, Trains & Automobiles" | |
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| Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
 ·SONIC.NET
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·Vitelity VOIP
| said by ninjatutle:any company, large er small would have to jump through the same hoops. Quit crying! If you can't take the heat......... Well, the old ones go through a lot too, but probably 25% less than new ones because there was less BS paperwork back then. | |
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 ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 |  Smaller government and less regulation is needed
The ISP needed approval from: the Minnesota State Historical Preservation Office, the US Army Corps of Engineers, the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, the USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) Trails and Waterways Division, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) Division of Lands and Minerals, each county's soil and water conservation district, and 103 townships and cities in the coverage area. If anybody needs more proof that we need SMALLER government and not more government oversight and regulation, then this is it.
P.S.> All the large multi-state ISP's have to deal with this nonsense on an even large scale than this small ISP.
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| |  woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: Smaller government and less regulation is needed hmmm......isn't this the same crap that ATT says they don't need/want to have to do, unless it is a competitor to their monopoly....God you have to love this $hit, glad they stuck with it. Peace
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BlooMe | |
| | | | | Re: Smaller government and less regulation is needed Actually it's not. AT&T or Verizon still has to deal with this same crap. | |
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| | | | ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium
join:2002-03-03
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:4 | Re: Smaller government and less regulation is needed said by COMMAN:( Of course, judging from the number of agencies cited here, if we eliminated government waste, half the population would be unemployed!) Ain't that the truth. | |
| | | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
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·Vitelity VOIP
| said by COMMAN:said by ThrowDemsOut:If anybody needs more proof that we need SMALLER government and not more government oversight and regulation, then this is it. Amen Brother, AMEN! Now can we all remember this on election day? ( Of course, judging from the number of agencies cited here, if we eliminated government waste, half the population would be unemployed!) ... and wouldn't need to be born, either. But, even if they're there, they would get to do less hours per day of more realistic work instead for higher pay, maybe not all at once, but the whole economy would change. | |
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| | | | | It's called doing an environmental impact statement. There is nothing unique or unusual about it.
Fortunately some people are smart enough to realize that they actually do represent a process whereby the public has not only a minimal assurance that companies have at least done a rudimentary analysis of the environmental impact of their projects it also gives the public an opportunity to comment on such projects.
It's not "big government" to ask companies to consider the impact of their projects and anyone suggesting as such is nothing more than a parrot trumpeting a call with no real knowledge of the issues. | |
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ricep5Premium
join:2000-08-07
Jacksonville, FL | Good Example.... of people who are out to provide a good service first and a profit second. The priorities are in order, provide excellent service and the profits will come.
Now if only the rest of the US thought that way....... | |
|  L337Premium
join:2005-03-10
Chicago, IL
 ·Comcast
| Wow...? The original concept of the American Government was just fine, it wasn't perfect but it at least worked. Since than it has gotten to big and there's been to many corruption which saddens me. Letters like this actually give me a hope of a better America. | |
| | | | Re: Wow...? Which was fine until Lincoln decided to trash the Constitution during the War of Northern Aggression. | |
| | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Wow...? said by RogerADSL:Which was fine until Lincoln decided to trash the Constitution during the War of Northern Aggression. ::smack::
Back in your hole racist inbred Southern swine. You're only allowed to come out and re-enact the Civil War once a year. Your pontification rights were revoked when you LOST.
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Pretty Fly for a White Guy™ | |
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| | An unfair advantage. The small loan does not cover much. They are now allowed to use Qwests" manholes. Thus they do not have to provide new manholes. Saves them money. Plus they can charge the customer for the fiber drop to the house. But these free things to a small provider add up. | |
| | | Do it up good too... Don't start at a measly 15-50mbit... do it up right with a minimum symmetric bandwidth of 100 Megabits (for the price of what Verizon charges for 15). | |
| |  nrz
@mc.videotron.ca | Re: Do it up good too... Good for them. Excelllent idea. | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Funny Summary quote:
Jaguar founder Donny Smith is in part using loans from the US Department of Agriculture's rural broadband program.
"Loans" from the government! Funny!
What type of collateral do we as taxpayers have should this project fail?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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| Re: Funny Summary said by pnh102: quote:
Jaguar founder Donny Smith is in part using loans from the US Department of Agriculture's rural broadband program.
"Loans" from the government! Funny! What type of collateral do we as taxpayers have should this project fail? Well, now that they've gouged the hell out of the CORN crops in Rural America.. (under the fallacy that ethanol competes with Oil) they're on to Minnesota wheat, bringing record prices.. so expect to pay more for your daily bread.. You might get loaves of stale moldy bread if it fails.. Often when a project falls prey to fraud, abuse, waste and corruption very little, if any of the money is recoverable. You don't have to go all the way to Iraq to find this happening.. it rears it's ugly head closer to election time. | |
| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: Funny Summary said by tmc8080:Well, now that they've gouged the hell out of the CORN crops in Rural America.. (under the fallacy that ethanol competes with Oil) they're on to Minnesota wheat, bringing record prices.. so expect to pay more for your daily bread.. Is that before or after our taxes go up to pay for more farm subsidies?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
| | | | | | Let me mention ATT.... Where I use to live in rurel america. They have a fiber line running down a street maybe a mile from where I was, but they are to cheap to put broadband in.... You just have to love corperate america.... | |
| | | | | | Re: Funny Summary said by pnh102:said by tmc8080:Well, now that they've gouged the hell out of the CORN crops in Rural America.. (under the fallacy that ethanol competes with Oil) they're on to Minnesota wheat, bringing record prices.. so expect to pay more for your daily bread.. Is that before or after our taxes go up to pay for more farm subsidies? Newsflash for ya. All those "subsidies" given out that we ALL pay for in taxes.. go to feed the millions living in the metro areas. Because trust me.. Joe Farmer is more than capable of feeding himself. Hell, im with ya man! Lets cut out ALL farm subsidy! Then lets see who the first to cry is. I mean it cant be all that bad.. 10 bucks a loaf of bread and 12 bucks for a half gallon of milk vs maybe the 50 bucks extra you spend over the year in "subsidy" prolly dont seem too bad.
Some of you guys just like to support capitalism and free market when it suits your purposes. But if we took those subsidies away and let the free market rule in food? We'd watch all those farmers sit on those crops untill they made a profit on them. They wouldnt be selling for the prices they are now... Your 10 dollar loaf of bread, and 12 dollar half gallon of milk would become a reality. and they can charge what the market will bare right? well im quite sure the market for food could bare alot more than it does.. because people HAVE to eat to survive. You dont wanna get that farmer monopoly thing going, im pretty sure it would lead to alot more unhappiness 
Enter subsidy... The govt realizes that starving people who cant scrape up enough "dough" for a loaf of bread and groceries for the week can lead to a pretty nasty civilization. Crime.. murder rates skyrocket as people try to feed themselves in those metro areas.. So, lets give them subsidy, allow them to make some money off the work they do because they WONT DO IT FOR FREE, damn those greedy bastard farmers who want to make a buck for all the work they do!
If this sounds ridiculously excessive.. it was meant to :P because its equally as ridiculous to sit and listen to people complain time and time again about something that was designed for THEM.
After reading this article it really saddens me the amount of hoops anyone would have to jump through to provide a service to people in this country. Its no wonder our nation is so far behind in broadband deployment. It costs more in legal fees and permits than it does to lay the infrastucture itself.
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| Re: Funny Summary said by hitman_001:said by pnh102:said by tmc8080:Well, now that they've gouged the hell out of the CORN crops in Rural America.. (under the fallacy that ethanol competes with Oil) they're on to Minnesota wheat, bringing record prices.. so expect to pay more for your daily bread.. Is that before or after our taxes go up to pay for more farm subsidies? Newsflash for ya. All those "subsidies" given out that we ALL pay for in taxes.. go to feed the millions living in the metro areas. Because trust me.. Joe Farmer is more than capable of feeding himself. Hell, im with ya man! Lets cut out ALL farm subsidy! Then lets see who the first to cry is. I mean it cant be all that bad.. 10 bucks a loaf of bread and 12 bucks for a half gallon of milk vs maybe the 50 bucks extra you spend over the year in "subsidy" prolly dont seem too bad. Some of you guys just like to support capitalism and free market when it suits your purposes. But if we took those subsidies away and let the free market rule in food? We'd watch all those farmers sit on those crops untill they made a profit on them. They wouldnt be selling for the prices they are now... Your 10 dollar loaf of bread, and 12 dollar half gallon of milk would become a reality. and they can charge what the market will bare right? well im quite sure the market for food could bare alot more than it does.. because people HAVE to eat to survive. You dont wanna get that farmer monopoly thing going, im pretty sure it would lead to alot more unhappiness Enter subsidy... The govt realizes that starving people who cant scrape up enough "dough" for a loaf of bread and groceries for the week can lead to a pretty nasty civilization. Crime.. murder rates skyrocket as people try to feed themselves in those metro areas.. So, lets give them subsidy, allow them to make some money off the work they do because they WONT DO IT FOR FREE, damn those greedy bastard farmers who want to make a buck for all the work they do! If this sounds ridiculously excessive.. it was meant to :P because its equally as ridiculous to sit and listen to people complain time and time again about something that was designed for THEM. After reading this article it really saddens me the amount of hoops anyone would have to jump through to provide a service to people in this country. Its no wonder our nation is so far behind in broadband deployment. It costs more in legal fees and permits than it does to lay the infrastucture itself. While it's true that subsidies morphed the family farm into a corporate cottage industry.. I seriously doubt that any spike in prices would last a long time particularly in food prices. Supply and demand work themselves out in due fashion precisely because the U.S. is a global unbalanced trade advocate. Unlike the OIL & gas industries, we KNOW that we won't let foreign interests hold food over our heads in the global market so, the same is also true with the domestic markets. Price regulation / subsidy are a double-edged sword for the domestic producer.. Holding out production to gouge consumers won't be tolerated the same way it is in other industries like gasoline refining to use an apt example. Corporate farmers could easily lose their shirts the way the family farms did in the 1980's and those who price gouge won't be as readily able to access subsidies/bailouts for their lack of good will.
Of course you can't eat broadband (literally), so as a general rule, the rural markets will develop more slowly than the urban markets. Also, the Amish wouldn't have it any other way.. The rural mid-west and southern markets could probably do with some faster deployment, but you can be sure it's not gonna happen with heavy government subsidies (no matter which party controls congress). Also, now that AT&T got it's hooks into Bell South, you can be sure that southern States will see deployment crawl at a pace which leaves cable companies firmly entrenched for the foreseeable future (all the while providing poor quality service at premium prices). Cough, cough...comast.ough...
One comparison that can be made between urban and rural markets is the price comparison.. A gallon of milk 25 miles down the road from a corporate farm could go for as low as $1.. but in the urban areas of NYC $3-4... You see this in Verizon's regional pricing outside of urban areas with slower broadband at higher prices.. the same is probably true with the rest of the industry (all telco and cable companies). | |
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