 
gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs: | I wish... they'd all just give up on copper, and start putting glass in the ground, or in the air...
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Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240 | |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA | Re: I wish... I dunno. With VDSL2 allowing a claimed 100mbps @ 3500ft over copper and AT&T limiting their FTTH to what 6mbps - I think I don't care how the bandwidth gets to me - just get it to me! | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs: | Re: I wish... Can't argue with that logic.. | |
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khadCCH
@comcast.net | Re: I wish... I CAN ESPECIALLY IF i Am being shared with hundreds of people. I want my own dedicated guaranteed upstream and downstream like fios. plus minimal outages | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs: | Re: I wish... It is all shared someplace. | |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
02101
| FiOS is overbuilt like everything else and is starting to see big slowdowns during prime hours in populated areas. The honeymoon's over. Check the Verizon forum.
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Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | proletarian
join:2007-01-08
00000
| said by Cabal  :FiOS is overbuilt like everything else and is starting to see big slowdowns during prime hours in populated areas. The honeymoon's over. Check the Verizon forum. I'm callin BS there. Where are these purported slowdowns?
My 15/2 has NEVER skipped a beat. | |
| | | | | | | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
 ·Comcast
 ·SONIC.NET
| Re: I wish... said by proletarian :said by Cabal :FiOS is overbuilt like everything else and is starting to see big slowdowns during prime hours in populated areas. The honeymoon's over. Check the Verizon forum. I'm callin BS there. Where are these purported slowdowns? My 15/2 has NEVER skipped a beat. I've been following FiOS forum for a while, skimming here and there, not reading every topic or post. I see occasional instances which show congestion, but it has not been well organized about where the congestion is. A lot of people report seeing the congestion going to non-Verizon sites; it is hard to know immediately where the bottle necks are placed (after all, they could be at Verizon, for instance, in their NSA-copy room, or at the peering sites, or someplace else). Very occasionally a post about a more obviously Verizon site (their test site) will show congestion, but we'll have to start waiting for people who are doing file transfers from a 20/20 or 15/15 to another 20/20 or 15/15 (or at least to another 20/5 or 15/2 or whatever) both on FiOS to see where the slowdowns really are. If such posts exist, they aren't widespread yet, but obviously I missed them and they'd be important.
Anyway, are you going to suddenly claim that because a handful of octets got dropped or delayed, that the entire system is too slow? It is obviously way faster than most other systems as delivered. How much, we'll see with time. | |
| | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Let's see.. he said "starting to".. it IS a shared medium, and just because you're not slowing down in your area is no different that the argument with Cable where people say cable has slow-downs and someone spouts up to confirm that theirs doesn't.
By the way.. My Comcast cable 8/768 has NEVER skipped a beat. Other subscriber's who's service does would disagree with me.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
 ·Verizon FIOS
edit:
November 28th, @08:19AM
| Re: I wish... Its not "starting to" either. There was an instance of a bad router/route in the Northeast and thats been resolved. There is no discussion of any bandwidth crunch anywhere and verizon has just demonstrated that upgrading the back bone links from 40 to 100gbps is relatively easy.
so no even with all their new up stream plans i don't foresee any issues with bandwidth anytime soon on verizon. Now the servers fios customers may hit may take a beating but thats an entirely different issue.... | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs: | As we say in World Of Warcraft, pics, or it didn't happen. In this case, give me some links to these topics, or it didn't happen. Pretty simple. | |
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Captain Kirk
@sbcglobal.net | Re: I wish... I'm William Shatner and I'm a Shaman. | |
| | | | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Well.. as we say in the real world, "pics, or it didn't happen" will hold about as much water as a bucket full of bullet holes. 
I know things seem pretty simple in a fantasy world.. in fact, I can tell you about people who've lost their jobs, homes, spouses, etc. while playing WOW. But, since there's no pics, "it didn't happen"..
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs:
·Suddenlink
 ·Cirtex Hosting
| Re: I wish... said by fiberguy :Well.. as we say in the real world, "pics, or it didn't happen" will hold about as much water as a bucket full of bullet holes. I know things seem pretty simple in a fantasy world.. in fact, I can tell you about people who've lost their jobs, homes, spouses, etc. while playing WOW. But, since there's no pics, "it didn't happen".. Maybe you missed my point here, but Cabal said to check the forums here, for proof of issues. I am simply asking for links to these topics, because in my quick glance over there, I was unable to find any such topics.
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Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240 | |
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maartena
Super Grover
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
| said by fiberguy : it IS a shared medium Most people don't even realize that DSL is just as much shared.
The difference between DSL and Cable is however, that DSL is shared in the local CO, which could easily handle 15,000 or more phone connections and perhaps as many as 5,000 DSL connections, whereas the bandwidth going in and out the CO is less then those 5,000 connections.
Cable is shared over a local node, which may have 80-100 cable internet subscribers connected to it, where the node connects to about 300 houses or so.
Yes the numbers are different for each node, there are small CO's with only 1,000 phone and maybe 250 DSL subscribers, there are also smaller cable nodes, 10 internet 50 cableTV or something like that.
Point is, pretty much anything that isn't a T-1 line or other form of dedicated service, is shared somewhere. EVEN Business DSL and Business Cable. And yes, FIOS is also sharing bandwidth.
That being said, my RoadRunner cable is pretty much stable and speedy 24/7, give or take some planned maintenance.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -
Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father. | |
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maartena
Super Grover
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
| said by Jerm :I dunno. With VDSL2 allowing a claimed 100mbps @ 3500ft over copper and AT&T limiting their FTTH to what 6mbps - I think I don't care how the bandwidth gets to me - just get it to me! I'm at 12000 ft from the CO. Even with VDSL, ADSL2, DSL2+ or all new DSL type technologies combined, I will only be able to get about 3 Mbps. If am extremely lucky, I may get away with a 6 Mbps subscription which may connect at around 5 Mbps.
Cable gives me 10 down, 1 up.
Not a difficult choice. I don't care about VDSL or DSL2+ as they are all so very nice for the first 5000 ft, but if you are over that..... goodluck getting any type of speed from your phone company.
As long as no one strings fiber to my house, I am pretty sure I will stick with cable.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -
Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father. | |
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cypherstream
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
 ·Cingular Wireless
edit:
November 27th, @06:27PM
| It may be more affordable With RF gear, you constantly have amplifiers, line extenders, nodes, and power supplies. That's quite a lot of equipment to keep powered on and maintained in good working order.
With a passive fiber optic technology, the signal can go for many many miles before needing a repeater. No more multiple power supplies and amplifiers! Less cost from the Power Company and less "active" equipment to maintain.
It's a good idea, and hopefully the large MSO's are weighing the pro's and con's of each future technology and keep us up to date with what works best for both the customer and the business. | |
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Mr Cable
@rogers.com
| Re: It may be more affordable Another architecture being utilized in newer sub-divisions is FTTC or Fibre-to-the-curb. Their is only one active device, being the node and everything coming out of it is passive. No Trunks or Line Extenders, just Taps. 1 Power supply can feed multiple nodes, and each node is scalable up to 4 upstreams if needed. Also upgrading to 1 GHZ is easy, just replace the RF Module in the Node. This type of system is easy to repair, and can do anything fibre can do. | |
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cypherstream
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
·Cingular Wireless
| Re: It may be more affordable Ah yes..
from: »connectedhome2go.com/
There’s a (relatively) new acronym making the rounds: RFOG, or RF Over Glass. In brief, RFOG is a category term for technology that lets cable operators use traditional back-office cable equipment with new fiber-to-the-home deployments. In greenfield situations, even cable operators want to put fiber in the ground, but they’d rather not pay for the other network upgrades that go with it. It’s cheaper and easier to stick with coax if it means they can use existing infrastructure gear and management tools. In other words, there’s incentive to choose coaxial cable over fiber unless you solve the back-office problem. Which is where RFOG comes in.
RFOG is a good thing, but the term may also be used to muddy the marketing waters. It’s good because using an RF overlay makes it financially feasible for operators to deploy deep fiber. On the other hand, RFOG includes many of the same limitations faced on a traditional coax network. There’s virtually no bandwidth gain (unlike with passive optical networking), despite the fact that operators can market the technology as fiber to the home. Ah, marketing.
At the moment, RFOG is a standard in development. (Yes, Motorola is part of that development process.) Ideally, RFOG should act as an intermediate step on the way to passive optical networking (PON), but unless there are clear and open parameters for how RFOG must work, there is no guarantee that today’s RFOG deployment will migrate well to a future PON architecture, or that operators won’t be locked in to a single vendor’s technology.
It’s hard to be brief on a subject this convoluted, but here a couple of key points:
1. As pressure builds for FTTH deployments (especially in new residential areas), RFOG will provide cable operators a viable fiber solution, even if it doesn’t provide the bandwidth benefits of PON.
2. Operators should keep their eyes wide open when choosing a solution labeled RFOG. There is no agreed-upon standard yet, and anything deployed today needs to leave an operator’s options open for upgrades tomorrow | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... Remember how Intel stood by their idea of what ram should be (Rambus) versus DDR?
DDR won out because it both performed very well in addition to being priced right and being considered a value versus what Rambus offered. And all the power of Intel and their dominance couldn't change that outcome.
I certainly won't argue that FTTH doesn't have it's pluses but it's also the expensive solution. 25 to 30 Billion to be exact for Verizon alone.
And, they're trying to do it in a very short amount of time compared to how the cable industry approached this over the last decade. Those who think that Cable co's like Comcast and TW don't have a ton of fiber in their networks are very mistaken. They have a lot of it and numbers I've read suggest that number is approaching 75% for Comcast these days. What I've also read is that to get 30Mb speeds via Verizon and their fios service, one would have to pay well over 125.00 per month.
I see that on Comcast for 42.95 month.
Even fios's 15Mb service is priced higher than Comcasts for the most part. Will people really want to pay those kinds of prices just to say they have FTTH and, in many cases..to actually cut their DL speeds in half for many of the kinds of things that people download everyday that powerboost accomodates? IMHO..I'd say that person choosing that option wasn't really doing their homework. For many..cable HSI really is the way to go in terms of speeds and value.
Is their entire network fiber? No. But it doesn't have to be either. The combination of the huge amount of fiber they do have together with the coaxial last mile is a very cost effective solution. And, it's already been demonstrated to perform at 150Mb + Speeds when combined with docsis 3.0 technology.
I'm not knocking verizon at all. In fact..as I've written about..they're to be commended for doing the only sane thing they could and biting the bullet and rolling out FTTH. But I don't think that means that the cable industry has to..or should do the same. They should agressively pursue docsis 3.0 and personally..I think that comibination will ultimately rule the day..and be the DDR of the broadband industry and the most heavily adopted and be both the speed..price..and the value option.
While Verizon is making some inroads..one has to consider that it's still very small in comparison to where the cable industry is today. And, it won't be long until the cable industry has docsis 3.0 rolling out. That's going to make verizons job all that much harder to get incumbent cable customers to switch over.
Why should they? I can see it if it's a service issue..but if people are getting great service..very fast..and at a great price..there's really no incentive.
And Verizon will have some VERY large bills to be paying..and discounting Fios to gain acceptance will grow ever more difficult.
As hard as this is for Verizon..imagine what it's like for AT&T and their PewVerse (tm) service.
IMHO..that company might as well start boarding their windows shut.
The outlook is really that bad for them IMHO.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs: | Re: The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... I don't see cable offering 20/20 | |
| | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20 | Then your eyes are closed.
DOCSIS 3.0 can handle that easily. | |
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Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
clubs:
·Be There
·UK Online
edit:
November 28th, @05:10PM
| Re: The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... said by fiberguy :Then your eyes are closed. DOCSIS 3.0 can handle that easily. Well no I think your eyes may be closed because if you reread his post....
said by gatorkram :I don't see cable offering 20/20 Present tense, and he's right. I don't see any cable offering of symettrical 20Mbit, do you? BPON FTTH can offer 600/150, don't see an offering of it right now even though the tech could in theory deliver. | |
| | bufbarnaby
join:2002-01-06
Riverside, CA | I`m in a ATT area in southern California and was just wondering where the heck U-Verse is being deployed.
Is there a map somewhere that shows their deployment ? | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Re: The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... said by JTRockville :Do you have a link to substantiate that? No. It wasn't from the net. It was in a report describing their Northeastern plant that I read a couple months ago from some brokerage analyst I believe.
It described it as your report does stating plant route miles and fiber route miles.
Based on those numbers it was about 70 to 72% at that time.
Perhaps the difference is your's is reporting nationwide and what I saw was regional.
Anyways..that's what it said and actually.it surprised me as I didn't realize it was that high.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Re: The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... said by Ignite :The demonstration of DOCSIS 3 showed 150Mbit to a single modem, so what? Split that 150Mbit between an average Comcast node of 468 people and you're left with 321kbps per home passed, assume 33% uptake you're left with 1Mbit/s per home passed. 1/20th of what a fully split worst case BPON FTTH solution delivers and 1/80th of what a worst case GPON solution delivers. It's all about the unicast bandwidth per home, and short of throwing 80 DOCSIS downstreams at a single node DOCSIS 3 cannot keep up with GPON. That 80 downstreams represents 2 1 million dollar list price Cisco ubr10ks fully loaded with MC5x20c cards. On a GPON network it represents a few switch ports. I highly doubt they have an average node of 468 people for starters. As for your comment about the demo of 150Mb being "so what" I'd have to ask what exactly do you think that residential users will be needing in the years ahead?
That kind of capacity will virtually quadruple what we already see on comcast and I highly doubt that many residential users will ever want or expect more than that even looking out 10 years.
And, even if they do, docsis 3.0 will allow them the ability to expand on that..not to mention their ability to split nodes.
I really don't buy at all that they'll want or even need to ever spend the money for FTTH. Why should they with that kind of capacity? It would seem very foolish and a total waste of money to me.
IMHO..we'll see docsis 3.0 starting to roll out in late 2008..and along with that..up to 50Mb speeds.
Already they're giving us 30Mb on the existing networks with powerboost. When Capacity is quadrupled it will certainly stand to reason that they can at least upgrade that to 50Mb or more.
And, who knows? With PB we might even see the 100Mb mark.
What you're forgetting here is what is really going to sell the consumer. It's just like DDR versus Rambus. The latest technology..if it's priced too high..isn't going to necessarily be the winner.
If Comcast can continue to deliver on the speeds they have been..and can take their levels up to the 50Mb or more mark..I think that most will never leave them for fios.
Why would they want to? There just isn't any real compelling reason to do so..and especially if it's going to cost more.
Verizon IS doing what they need to do because they have no choice really. Their network has to be totally reworked..and it might as well be with FTTH. But, it's at such a huge cost that it's hard for me to see them competing with cable's docis 3.0..especially on a price versus value..versus speed combination.
At least it will be some good competition.
Uverse..on the other hand..is perhaps the biggest flop to ever hit the broadband world.
When will AT&T ever realize that?
ps: as for the research report.I wouldn't even know where to look for it at this point...or if I even have it any more.
It was going back 2 or 3 months ago. I recall the percentage because it really surprised me. Whether it was completely accurate..I certainly don't know.
I do think it's probably greater than 50% though and that the 22% number isn't right. I mean..we KNOW they feed all their nodes with it..so that's right into the neighborhoods from their headends.
Maybe 50 to 60% nationwide would seem more realistic.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
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JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | So, if the northeastern plant has ~70-72% fiber, and the national average is ~22%, then many Comcast plants must have much less than 22% fiber. That seems pretty hard to believe. | |
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Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Re: The latest and greatest technology doesn't always win out... said by JTRockville :So, if the northeastern plant has ~70-72% fiber, and the national average is ~22%, then many Comcast plants must have much less than 22% fiber. That seems pretty hard to believe. Personally, I find that 22% number cited in that report as being way low.
When you consider all the fiber feeding their head ends..fiber out to the distribution hubs..then fiber out to their enormous array of nodes..I find it virtually impossible to consider that only represents that small a percentage of their network.
Perhaps the Northeast is a higher percentage than other parts of the country but I doubt it's that huge a difference.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
| | 
old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."
join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD
| said by Rick : What I've also read is that to get 30Mb speeds via Verizon and their fios service, one would have to pay well over 125.00 per month. I see that on Comcast for 42.95 month. I'd sure like to see hard copy to back up that statement or
I'll call shenanigans, or fan boy, or both 
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"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..." | |
| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Need 4 Speed So how much bandwidth were they thinking of delivering to residential customers? 20, 30, 50, 100... symmetrical?
We've heard this same story with Cablevison's flirtation with Narad virtual-fiber proprietary cablemodems. Let's see if this actually happens. | |
| |
OldTimer_2
@sprintlink.net | Re: Need 4 Speed You're going to have to wait a long time for the virtual-fiber solution. Narad/Phyflex went out of business a couple months ago. I'm not exactly sure what the company that bought the IP is going to do with it. | |
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elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO | F Greenfield some of us already own a home or rent one
Cable and Telcos need to throw us a bone here
but i do like the idea of cable pushing fiber the last mile | |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
·Cox HSI
| Re: F Greenfield said by elios :some of us already own a home or rent one Cable and Telcos need to throw us a bone here but i do like the idea of cable pushing fiber the last mile In most parts of the country they don't need to push Fiber(ie Att territory)Were i live you have Att and Cox Cable and Cox Blows Att out of the water when its comes to internet its not even a race.They don't need to go to fiber they Beat em(lest here)On every corner but with price but that's just in the lower speed tiers.
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"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."-George Carlin
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Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
|  !
Until then what's there motivation.
Give away an OC-3 to a residential customer for 69.95 a month?
Not going to happen at the moment.
But if your willing to shell out the $$ you can have it today, if you can't wait till tomorrow. | |
| | tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Re: ! said by Surfinusa :When companies have motivation then you will see fiber or higher speeds on Copper. Until then what's there motivation. Give away an OC-3 to a residential customer for 69.95 a month? Not going to happen at the moment. But if your willing to shell out the $$ you can have it today, if you can't wait till tomorrow. No one's going to leapfrog Verizon on the bandwidth bandwagon anytime soon. They are thinking about PONs not gpons or anything near hundreds to thousands of megabits to the home. The sheer bandwidth costs have not come in-line with being affordable (in addition to deployment costs). That's not to say some crazy micro deployments wouldn't "just do it" and worry about profits much later down the road... of course in theory that's what got MCI thrown into bankruptcy for lining their uunet/backbone links with gobs of bandwidth at a time it wasn't needed and cost boatloads of money to deploy. Assets Verizon now leverages for pennies on the dollar.
A little birdie told me one day that Sprint will go belly up with their global data network & assets being split between two companies you know very well: At&t & Verizon. | |
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When Cable Runs FTTH
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