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White House Review Finds No Evidence of Huawei Spying
After Eighteen Month Intelligence Review
by Karl Bode 06:19PM Wednesday Oct 17 2012
Last week a House Intelligence Committee Report boldly proclaimed that Chinese gear makers Huawei and ZTE were essentially spies, despite having absolutely no evidence after an eleven month investigation. Both companies insisted the report was little more than a protectionist witch hunt, and it appears much of the hysteria appears to be originating with Cisco. Now insiders tell Reuters that a White House review conducted over eighteen months with the help of intelligence agencies found no evidence of spying by the gearmakers:
quote:
Aided by intelligence agencies and other departments, those conducting the largely classified White House inquiry delved into reports of suspicious activity and asked detailed questions of nearly 1,000 telecom equipment buyers, according to the people familiar with the probe. "We knew certain parts of government really wanted" evidence of active spying, said one of the people, who requested anonymity. "We would have found it if it were there."
As numerous people have noted, the majority of United States network gear is manufactured in China, so the House Committee's rather specific protectionist assault had already fallen a bit flat, especially now that numerous year-long inquiries have resulted in absolutely no evidence.

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FLATLINE

join:2007-02-27
Buffalo, NY

Whatever

Yeah because if they were going to spy then they would be doing it now while trying to gain market share. I don't know what the point is to all this. Sounds to me like someone's afraid of competition.
Aranarth

join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI

Re: Whatever

Actually now that we have said they are not spying next year this time they will start.

FFH5
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Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

What's with all the stories pushing for Huawei here at BBR? Spying or not spying(and I think they would spy), we don't need another Chinese company taking money OUT of the US.
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skeechan
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1 edit

1 recommendation

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

America bashing is in vogue as DSLR.

The question isn't are they spying NOW it's their ties to the Chinese military and their refusal to be transparent to US regulators. If AT&T will bend over in 10 seconds to the NSA, you don't think Huawei wouldn't to the PLA?

Let's see what some real reporters have to say...

»www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7424702n
whiteyonenh

join:2004-08-09
Keene, NH

1 recommendation

said by FFH5:

What's with all the stories pushing for Huawei here at BBR? Spying or not spying(and I think they would spy), we don't need another Chinese company taking money OUT of the US.

Right, because forbidding something instead of properly competing ALWAYS gets results. It's been said in several news articles that the reason that we no longer manufacture much in this country is because we don't have the specially trained workers here, not because of cost (increase in cost cited for a $1500 computer was roughly $20), as well as the whole supply chain originating in china. Assume that Cisco/HP/TrendNet/Juniper Networks/SMC/Zyxel/D-link/etc all manufacture their products in china, lets also assume that during manufacturing the firmware image, (basically software that controls the device) gets flashed onto a memory chip during it's time in these Chinese factories. Now lets assume by targeting Huawei/ZTE or other companies that have supposed ties to the Chinese government, we're ignoring the fact that all our stuff is made in china. Now assume that the government has/may have ties into the factories where this stuff is made, and has/can/will modified/modify the firmware in other manufacturer's devices. Where does it stop? Do we forbid Apple products, as they're all made in china? How about most cell phones? Most TV's? Most computers?

Instead of needlessly investigating one/two specific company/companies as to what they may or may not be doing, how about focusing on fixing the budget of the country, because surely that must be more important? How about properly training our citizens to work the jobs that tech companies want/need?

For further reading on why we don't manufacture stuff in America anymore: »www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/busin···nted=all

An excerpt from the above article: A few years after Mr. Saragoza started his job, his bosses explained how the California plant stacked up against overseas factories: the cost, excluding the materials, of building a $1,500 computer in Elk Grove was $22 a machine. In Singapore, it was $6. In Taiwan, $4.85. Wages weren’t the major reason for the disparities. Rather it was costs like inventory and how long it took workers to finish a task.
But hey, we're America, we don't have to compete, we just have to ban products we don't like from our shores as a protectionist measure.

skeechan
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

My Chinese toaster isn't a threat to national security. Communications infrastructure built by a secretive company with ties to the Chinese military using stolen technology (down Cisco's typos in the router manuals) is.
whiteyonenh

join:2004-08-09
Keene, NH

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

Did you even read my full post? You still haven't responded to the fact that every single thing, regardless of manufacture, is made in china. And if I were the Chinese government, I wouldn't be openly supportive of a company that I was going to use to spy/attack America, in fact, I would modify factory firmware images in various other companies products, during the manufacturing process. This includes the products of American companies, because again, everything is made in china.

If America is so worried about Telecommunications infrastructure, then maybe we should offer a subsidy to any company that is willing to fully design/manufacture that equipment in USA. Make the USA-made equipment better/cheaper than the competition, and maybe US companies/industry will purchase it again.

Or we can just argue/whine that some foreign entity may use our own infrastructure to spy on us, and not do anything to actually fix/resolve anything. But hey, government as usual, regardless of if Democrats/Republicans are in power.

skeechan
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3 edits

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

No, not everything is "made" in China, it's ASSEMBLED in China. Two very different things. In the case of firmware, it can be flashed after receipt in the United States if security is an issue.

Meanwhile it isn't whining to be concerned about telecom infrastructure being purchased from a highly secretive company with a long history of IP theft and deep ties to the PLA...an increasingly dangerous enemy that has been and continues to engage in cyber-espionage against the United States. You'd give them keys to the lock, allowing them to do anything from spying to simply flipping a kill switch when we need the infrastructure most. Genius.

Even their own American spokeshole has no answers.

a333
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

It's not really the firmware that's the concern here... hardware itself can be fabricated with VERY subtle modifications... quite impossible to detect in any userspace or low-level code. Such modifications could enable all sorts of VERY strange behavior that are next to impossible to detect with any normal software tools (hence the reason that at universities such as mine, there are entire cybersecurity challenges where the focus is to detect HARDWARE bugs and potentially malicious modifications in various embedded systems.) The issue at hand is that countries like China and India do happen to manufacture the bulk of our HARDWARE. Even if the firmware is developed and flashed in high-security government facilities over here in the U.S, chances are that any hardware not for missile control systems or other ultra-critical projects is probably still made in China. That means the PLC's that wind up in our power plants, and the regular desktop PC's that are used even in the Pentagon to store critical blueprints and other restricted documents. Additionally, pretty much ALL telecom equipment (baseband chips, trusted platform chips on PC motherboards, WiFi radios, Cellular base station equipment and the like) is built in China and lapped up over here by our corporations and consumers who are perpetually chasing the almighty dollar. It comes back to a single major point: we, being the very country that CREATED packet switching and so many of the modern telecommunications protocols now fails to manufacture even a fraction of the world's supply of computer hardware...
--
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skeechan
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

And how many of those companies are sole sourcing this type of telecom infrastructure package? How many of those companies are so secretive? How many of those companies have such ties to the Chinese military?

Zero.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

I was speaking more from the point of view that going by the White House/Congress' line of logic would incriminate pretty much ANY Chinese hardware OEM, as the technology to embed hardware trojans is quite advanced and very much accessible to all of said companies/OEMs. Instead, sourcing talent over here (i.e. pumping out more CompE's, EE's, and Cybersecurity experts is the ONLY way to ensure the security of our critical infrastructure.)
--
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4 edits

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

We should qualify student loan rates based on industry needed majors. If you want to be a Sanskrit major with a minor in womenz studies great but the loan is 15%. For engineering, medicine, natural sciences; the student loan would be priced at the variable rate of core inflation. Law school and poli-sci would be a gajillion percent. People claim that an educated public benefits everyone but more lawyers and worthless sociology majors don't benefit anyone and taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing it. Moreover if you were a sciences major and decide to work in the 6-12 public school system, you get a partial rebate for your education paid out over time including a 100% refund for the additional TC courses if they were taken at a public university in the same state. Finally, students have to test up EVERY grade so we stop graduating kids who are functionally illiterate.

We should adopt an immigration system like Japan has where you can only immigrate if you have a core competency that the country needs. Have an EE degree (for example), your visa is fast tracked. Have no degree and you don't get in at all unless it is to attend an accredited school and maintain progress toward getting the degree.

Sr Tech
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The problem is that years ago many people forgot that one military supplier building hardware used components from a Chinese manufacture which had a virus hard coded into the firmware.

Now besides that, reason the White House is trying to make everything sound like a delicious chocolate cake is that China is carrying out debt.

I see the concern of having a Chinese controlled company hosting data considering the way they spy on their own citizens. My question is has someone actually been able to analyze the firmware or hardware being used by this company to actually see if it is a threat? Or has someone done this all ready and the message is slowly leaking out?

ArrayList
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If American companies offer a superior product, then what is the problem?

skeechan
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

No single vendor makes everything. Huawei stole from everyone (down to the typos in Cisco's manuals) so they now offer everything.

ArrayList
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

if this is true, how are they allowed to import their products?

FFH5
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

said by ArrayList:

if this is true, how are they allowed to import their products?

Because we have a gutless government that knows China owns our debt and can take the US in to a depression anytime they want. So we do nothing while China steals from us.
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ArrayList
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

yes. all the problems in the world are because of the government.
CXM_Splicer
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

If only we could eliminate the government and let Business run things then we would be so much better off! After all, they are really concerned about the people's well being... aren't they?

ArrayList
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

I hear there is a place where this is happening right now. It's called Somalia.



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4 edits

1 recommendation

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

Alternatively those who love government and taxes can move to North Korea. Meanwhile it's easy for people to not complain about taxes when they aren't paying them. If they had to fork over 1/2 their money just to see it set on fire by Administration campaign bundlers at Solyndra and A123 they would pick up a sign too.

But alas, they'll still pick up signs but it's because they're being paid $11/hr by the SEIU to harass Romney while bragging about their "free" obamaphones. At the same time the rest of us work through mid April (or May 1 if you live in NY) before finally starting to pay ourselves.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio


There are twice as many people working for the government than in all of manufacturing, the opposite of what was going on in 1960 when 2X the people were in manufacturing than in government. It is sobering to note that more Americans now work for the government than in mining, utilities, forestry, fishing, farming and manufacturing, COMBINED. Half of all state and local government cost goes to pay just the benefits for state and local government workers and states are going bankrupt because of it.

The country ends if that 47% become the 51% as the safety net is now a hammock.

ArrayList
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

thanks for that oversimplification.

skeechan
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

It needs to be simple as there are those who were educated by teacher unions reading this thread.

ArrayList
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

people who fear unionized teachers need the simplification.

skeechan
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Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

Evidently not.
CXM_Splicer
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said by skeechan:

There are twice as many people working for the government than in all of manufacturing, the opposite of what was going on in 1960 when 2X the people were in manufacturing than in government. It is sobering to note that more Americans now work for the government than in mining, utilities, forestry, fishing, farming and manufacturing, COMBINED. Half of all state and local government cost goes to pay just the benefits for state and local government workers and states are going bankrupt because of it.

The country ends if that 47% become the 51% as the safety net is now a hammock.

Hahaha!!! That's a strange way to spin the fact that the majority of our manufacturing has been sent to other countries!! So, in essence, what you are saying is: Since we don't manufacture anything in this country any more we have to reduce the size of the government. Ummm, no, that doesn't work.

Probably the easiest way to reduce the 47% number is to remove the tax loopholes that allow some millionaires to pay no taxes at all. That would probably bring the number down to the single digits. And, like it or not, you can bet if Romney wins the election that number will go way past 47%. Google Sensata and you will see his 'Job Plan' in action... company was bought out by Bain Capital, they are closing the plant and moving it to China... 170 more unemployed people. If you and Romney hate the 47% so much, why do you want to make the percentage bigger?

skeechan
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They settled with Cisco early last decade (including fixing the typos they had copied) but the theft didn't stop. Despite Cisco seeing Huawei still stealing as recently as 2005, legal counsel at Cisco determined the benefits of a lawsuit were outweighed by the potential fallout on Cisco's Chinese business dealings.

»www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WL1002/S01773.htm

said by Embassy Cable released by Wikileaks :
8. (SBU) Tao Taodi of Cisco Systems offered a differing view,
claiming Cisco was a textbook case of how litigation in China
can backfire and hurt a company's long-term interests. She
noted Cisco now had regrets over having sued state-owned
telecommunications giant Huawei in 2003 because, during the
suit, Cisco was portrayed by the Chinese media as a bullying
multi-national corporation trying to crush a local competitor.
Ultimately, Tao argued, the damage to Cisco's reputation in
China outweighed any benefit achieved through the lawsuit.
Huawei is notorious for IP theft, in addition to being extremely secretive in addition to having deep ties to the PLA.

n1581j

@wildblue.net
Bull. Utter nonsense. You obviously know nothing about Huawei or it's equipment or the founder who just happened to be brighter than anyone we could currently offer as competition. If you haven't used the equipment then I suggest you refrain from making asinine posts.

It's good it works. It's not copied.

If America had something to offer as viable competition don't you think if the price was competitive we would be using it?

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4 edits

Re: Why the big BBR push FOR Huawei?

Obviously you have zero clue as to what you're talking about. Huawei is a notorious thief of IP with ties to the Chinese military. They even copied the typos on the Cisco manuals.

That the equipment may work now and is benign now is irrelevant to the fact that Huawei steals technology and is in league with the primary source of cyber espionage against US interests. The ChiComs are not your friend. There is a new cold war on whether you want it or not.

If Huawei wants to stop stealing and become transparent to US regulators, then it should be considered.
axus

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I think they are newsworthy, BroadbandReports is a news site. With editorials, forums , and bandwidth testing

Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

I knew it..

Yep. I knew it. Someone sprouted a rumor, which blew out of proportion, only to be just that.. a rumor.

Now other countries will be skeptical about our gear, or any gear that isn't made in their country. Good job, you idiot.

cyberlunacy

@mchsi.com

Re: I knew it..

ya know Australia HAS banned their products in their country because they DID find that they were spying.

so.. .... ...

its our guttless government and their inability to stand up for AMERICANS.
too worried about everyone else and what might happen.

F Huawei and F any chinese company or ANY non American company who 110% doesnt comply when our government regulations.
if a US company had refused to turn over information they would be hung for it.

we bend over backwards and take it up the ol pooper in every other country in the world and do everything they want... its about damn time we hade a Gov. with some balls who stood up for things like this and stopped doing things like handing the keys to the patent office to companies like Apple, and stopped allowing companies like AT&T and Verizon sit on billions of dollars worth of unused spectrum while they rip certain bands out of the hands of our schools who own certain bands but have not used them yet simply because until a few years ago there wasnt even a decent usable product.

skeechan
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Guess the campaign contribution check cleared

From the same White House that couldn't find its own ass with both hands.

n1581j

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1 edit

Re: Guess the campaign contribution check cleared

I worked on the equipment, still do in my travels. If you want to vote for a campaign at least vote for someone who had a better chance of a second term in Mass. His final approval rating being 36%. When I was... Shame his voters didn't think that way

skeechan
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1 edit

Re: Guess the campaign contribution check cleared

Him being unpopular in a libtard state is a plus, we're talking about a state that may elect Sitting Bullshit to the Senate.

FFH5
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White House denies Reuters report

The White House has denied the Reuters Report on Huawei:
»thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valle···or-china

A White House spokeswoman is denying a report that an investigation requested by the White House into whether telecommunications equipment makers pose security risks to American companies yielded no definitive proof that Huawei has spied on behalf of China.

Reuters, citing two people familiar with the investigation, reported that an 18-month-long classified review found that Huawei's telecommunications equipment included security vulnerabilities that hackers could use to infiltrate computer systems, but came up empty handed regarding evidence proving Huawei had spied on the U.S.

But White House spokesperson Caitlin Hayden said officials have not conducted an investigation that has cleared any telecom equipment maker.

"The White House has not conducted any classified inquiry that resulted in clearing any telecom equipment buyer as reported in Reuters,"
Hayden said in an e-mail. "In October of last year, Huawei was excluded from taking part in the building of America’s interoperable, wireless emergency network for first responders due to U.S. Government national security concerns," she added.

Looks like Reuters needs better inside sources.
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tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

great

now bring on the android handsets that are 25% of what apple Iphone 5 charges for the SAME specifications...

it's amazing what monopoly companies will do to smear the competition..

footballdude
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Imperial, MO

China is good at this

The Chinese are extremely good at espionage. They've been at it for a long, long time. If you've ever had a security clearance, you've been warned about the Chinese.

That doesn't make this particular company guilty, but it's no surprise that ANY Chinese company would have some espionage going on. It's also highly possible that they are just a stalking horse designed to take attention away from the ACTUAL espionage taking place behind door #2. Like I said, they're very good at this stuff.
--
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anon8080

@sbcglobal.net

Isn't most Cisco gear ALSO made in China

Isn't most Cisco/Linksys gear ALSO made in China, and it would be easier just to mod the Cisco firmware or chips instead?? It's a bit hypocritical of Cisco....

fm

@mchsi.com

Re: Isn't most Cisco gear ALSO made in China

I have many Chinese professional friends, often in technical work and I have work with doing business in and with China for years. It is VERY SIMPLE, any business/industrial competitors/entities in Chinese or American will always 'borrow' and 'extract by all means' whatever they can from their competitors (countries included). Even if not Chinese Gov owned, they can be doing R&D for or 'consulting' with the government and that is as focused in terms of extracting intelligence and know how. It includes Chinese University engineering or scientific research team doing research for a Chinese Government mission and they often have Chinese researchers who have ties to or are ex-US Multinational researchers and engineers.....

When it has Defense risk potential, it is very simple, DON'T. If it is stolen by Japan for example for the sake of discussion rather than accusing Japan as such, it benefits their economy at our expense........; but that has much less risk in the defense sense because Japan is obviously not wanting to be a threat to the US that we can see. China on the other hand is explicitly wanting to be a military threat to China and its shear size put the argument in a different perspective. It is that simple.

Now, when you have business managers and owners especially the younger and backboneless type, they see only $ and their bonus, will find argument to excuse themselves out of any simple logic in the name of 'thinking outside the box' and put out some mitigation process of no practical constraint.

Cisco, it is trying to survive and wish to go back to its glorious days defined by the on paper value during the Internet bubble era, in its guts is willing to do anything and the higher paying technocrats will do anything to keep their job, and has too many many multinational people in key position with innate true loyalty to none and only $ will do anything to excuse themselves..... US is an open door not admitting that it is not ready to protect themselves in intelligence properties, and they are not fool proof enough to plug up all the holes is finding itself in this kind of situations.