beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH |
beaups
Member
2009-Feb-3 10:43 am
how does this impact VOIP?VOIP uses nowhere near the threshold where traffic management starts. If anything shouldn't this improve VOIP for those users on a congested node?? |
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me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO |
me1212
Member
2009-Feb-3 10:46 am
I don't know still seems shady to me.I don't know if I would turst CC, mostly cuase the article did not say the FCC was wrong and that CC may, even if they didn't intend to, making their VoIP work better than others. All they said was their VoIP did not fall in line with the over the top stuff, so they don't have to do anything about it, atleas tthats what I got from it. |
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CDVIs not an Internet Phone Product so why should it be treated one. It's also not a telephone product. It is full IP built on the cable's network.
Why should Vonage or anyone else get the privilege of using something they didn't build or anything. Comcast build that network they should have the right to say how their services are handled over it.
But i guess next will be TWC and Cox as they do the same thing. Cablevision you're up too!
I say they start charging the VoIP providers extra to get that extra services off the network.
Add; Also knowing when signing up with your Internet Phone Provider you agree that the service is based on the public internet not depending on if we get what we want to make you're "Internet based" phone service with the FCC and make it a "true" phone service without all the taxes. |
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 dadkinsCan you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA |
VoIP?Skype is VoIP, right?
I use Skype for hours each day and it works great!
Maybe, when one is using voice, stop the downloads so nothing interferes with it, no?
Maxing out on the por... er uh, Research Videos... might blow VoIP out and cause problems.
Hell! I'm on Skype right now! Seems to be doing ok - 26 minute 1200 mile call - crystal clear! |
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And Comcast is rightTheir own Digital Voice product utilizes the PacketCable specification to guarantee the reliability that's needed. The FCC needs to find a new hobby other than being the telcos attack dogs. |
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to beaups
Re: how does this impact VOIP?It doesn't. It's just a bunch of people crying and whining about how Comcast should give them special treatment on their network.
Comcast just needs to start charging extra if other companies want that special treatment. Ed's dream will be coming true this year. Also CDV is NOT Internet Based. |
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| hottboiinnc4 |
to BillRoland
Re: And Comcast is rightYEP! Agree 100%! They need to leave Comcast alone especially.
They should be going after AT$T for doing the same thing on their network. |
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dadkinsCan you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA |
to beaups
Re: how does this impact VOIP?said by beaups:VOIP uses nowhere near the threshold where traffic management starts. If anything shouldn't this improve VOIP for those users on a congested node?? Yakking while downloading tons of stuff might hit the management protocol and start screwing with it. |
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 FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2009-Feb-3 10:51 am
Possible FCC stance on VOIP would discourage superior offerThe problem with the POSSIBLE FCC stance on this is that it could discourage a superior product all in the name of fairness(network neutrality). If an ISP comes up with a product superior to std run of the mill VOIP, the implied FCC stance here is that you shouldn't offer it unless you can make all your inferior competitors whole by using your own resources to improve their product. That isn't the American-way. It is the way to mediocrity and a typical governmental way of looking at things.
Let's hope that after the FCC really examines this that they don't fall in to the trap of rewarding mediocrity all in the name of so-called fairness. That is how the US public school systems got in to the mess they are now in. |
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 djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV ·AT&T FTTP
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djrobx
Premium Member
2009-Feb-3 10:52 am
This is such a non-issue.quote:
"Comcast insists they've always made clear their Digital Voice service is not an "over the top" VoIP solution, and thereby not part of their high speed Internet (HSI) service -- in turn not subject to the FCC's demands. "
That sums this issue up perfectly. Separate service, separate bandwidth allocation. It's no different from AT&T U-verse delivering IPTV through the same pipe as HSI but with a different set of rules. In both cases HSI service is not required for operation. When you order Vonage you're aware it's dependent on your HSI service. That's not the case with CDV. The irony here is Comcast can't give third party VOIP higher priority to enhance quality. That would be favoring a specific protocol, which would be against net neutrality! |
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 jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA |
jmn1207
Premium Member
2009-Feb-3 10:52 am
Which is it?If it's an information service, it should be subject to net neutrality rules and prohibited from anti-competitive practices, which means their VoIP potentially gets throttled just like any other VoIP service. Otherwise, they can play favorites with their Digital Voice and we can classify it as a communication service that would have to be regulated and come with fees normally associated with that status. |
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to dadkins
Re: how does this impact VOIP?Seems like it would only really be a problem for users who heavily use P2P and try to chat via Vonage.
So I suppose you could stop downloading and wait fifteen minutes to be returned to a "priority best effort" QOS state before you made your call.
But given that Comcast Digital Voice suffers from no such restrictions the FCC may not care. |
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to hottboiinnc4
Re: CDVIf it is a VoIP service traveling over a separate IP network owned by Comcast then it should be regulated like a telephone service and be subject to the same taxes, fees and regulations.
Otherwise if it wants to be treated like a VoIP service then Comcast should play fair. |
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jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA |
to dadkins
Re: how does this impact VOIP?said by dadkins:said by beaups:VOIP uses nowhere near the threshold where traffic management starts. If anything shouldn't this improve VOIP for those users on a congested node?? Yakking while downloading tons of stuff might hit the management protocol and start screwing with it. While most people would never be bothered with the throttling, once it has been employed, it lasts for 15 minutes. So you might be finished transferring data and Vonage may not be able to work correctly 10 minutes later. |
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to BillRoland
Re: And Comcast is rightThat's fine. CDV should then be regulated and taxed like a telephone service, because that's what it is, essentially. |
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 ptrowskiGot Helix?
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT |
to djrobx
Re: This is such a non-issue.said by djrobx:quote:
"Comcast insists they've always made clear their Digital Voice service is not an "over the top" VoIP solution, and thereby not part of their high speed Internet (HSI) service -- in turn not subject to the FCC's demands. "
That sums this issue up perfectly. Separate service, separate bandwidth allocation. It's no different from AT&T U-verse delivering IPTV through the same pipe as HSI but with a different set of rules. In both cases HSI service is not required for operation. When you order Vonage you're aware it's dependent on your HSI service. That's not the case with CDV. The irony here is Comcast can't give third party VOIP higher priority to enhance quality. That would be favoring a specific protocol, which would be against net neutrality! What about that PR stunt with Vonage that Comcast did after they were busted using Sandvine? Would that mean that Vonage gets priority over other voip providers? |
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to jmn1207
Re: Which is it?It's a loophole which needs to be closed.
A large monopoly like Comcast should be made to play fair. |
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to hottboiinnc4
Re: CDVIt's not an Internet Phone Product? It's not a telephone product? Well, it has to be one or the other. Either it's an internet phone, or it's not. It's VOIP, which, is by definition, "Voice Over INTERNET PROTOCOL", so I guess it's an internet product. The problem is this. If comcast treats THEIR product differently than anyone elses, then what's to prevent them from making google slower than the 'comcast' search engine? What, they going to charge google for using 'their network'. Damn, are you really Ed Whittaker in disguise? You want to double dip charge not only the customers, WHO PAID FOR THE NETWORK, but also charge the content providers, WHO ALSO PAID FOR THE NETWORK. If comcast is 'prioritizing' their protocol, then by definition, they are DE-prioritizing all the other protocols, and that is wrong. |
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jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA |
to beaups
Re: how does this impact VOIP?Suppose that your reclusive brother-in-law sends you several gigabytes worth of video of him speaking his manifesto and ranting about destroying the world? If you had some VoIP service other than Comcast's, you might not be able to get through to the FBI for 15 minutes. Think of the children!  |
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Phugg
join:2004-09-30
Riverbank, CA |
Phugg
Member
2009-Feb-3 11:00 am
CC built it CC buit the tech and should be able to use it. As stated earlier by others , Nobody is going after AT&T for doing THE EXACT SAME THING. Now who has the deeper pockets ? Probably Comcast now. But AT&T is willing to go into their pockets and shell out more by buying (the FCC) lawyers/lobbyists. Comcast wont go into their pockets like AT&T will. Its clear that the the whole FCC (and ex Martin) staff are pro telco and anti cable. As much as I would like to see "change" come rapidly , it WONT. With all the prepaid ass-hats in public offices it will continue for years. Politicians have alway and will always be corrupted once past the local level. It is the only way you can advance in the political world. You want money , you make a bill go "my way". |
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djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV ·AT&T FTTP
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to jmn1207
Re: Which is it?said by jmn1207:If it's an information service, it should be subject to net neutrality rules and prohibited from anti-competitive practices, which means their VoIP potentially gets throttled just like any other VoIP service. Otherwise, they can play favorites with their Digital Voice and we can classify it as a communication service that would have to be regulated and come with fees normally associated with that status. What a brilliant idea for consumers! I'm sure the government will be happy to get right on that for you. If you want to get competition, force them to allow other phone providers to offer service over the CDV channel, just as we have forced some cable companies to offer alternative ISPs, like how Earthlink offers HSI over Time Warner Cable's IP network. As it stands CDV is Voice over IP ... it's not voice over public internet access. The public internet access is what's being subject to limitations. They're separate products, just as they should be. |
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beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH |
to Karl Bode
Re: how does this impact VOIP?But you are still assuming that once you are throttled that it will impact the quality of the call. Nobody knows yet, but it is not unreasonable to think that once you are on the "slow bus" it would still be sufficient for VOIP. |
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ |
to djrobx
Re: This is such a non-issue.said by djrobx:When you order Vonage you're aware it's dependent on your HSI service. That's not the case with CDV. The irony here is Comcast can't give third party VOIP higher priority to enhance quality. That would be favoring a specific protocol, which would be against net neutrality! It is sort of a catch 22. The complaint by Comcast's VOIP competitors is designed to make them pay a penalty for delivering a better product. If Comcast CDV is not std VOIP, then they want the FCC to levy extra regulations and fees as a phone service and not an information service. And if it is considered VOIP, then the complainants want Comcast's product hobbled or their services treated special. Thereby breaking the network neutrality agreement that Comcast already agreed to fix with protocol agnostic traffic mgt and based on FCC orders. |
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djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV ·AT&T FTTP
1 edit |
to ptrowski
quote:
What about that PR stunt with Vonage that Comcast did after they were busted using Sandvine? Would that mean that Vonage gets priority over other voip providers?
Right - that should NOT be allowed. Comcast should not be allowed to deprioritize, or prioritize Vonage differently from other internet traffic. What Comcast and Vonage should be doing is offering Vonage brand VOIP through an eMTA, separately from CHSI. |
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jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA |
to djrobx
Re: Which is it?Comcast is trying to make it seem like the CDV product is just like any other data going over the public internet when it comes to the FCC and the classification of the service. But we know that is not the case, and if they insist on throttling data over the internet when their system can't handle the congestion, it should apply to all information services, and not exclude CDV.
I want competition. While this is almost pathetic right now, as very few customers are currently being throttled, it still presents an advantage for Comcast over the competition. I want the competition to have an even playing field, because that is ultimately in my best interest. |
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djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV ·AT&T FTTP
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to fifty nine
Re: And Comcast is rightsaid by fifty nine:That's fine. CDV should then be regulated and taxed like a telephone service, because that's what it is, essentially. And Time Warner VOIP, and U-verse Voice, and ... yep, great idea! Hey wait a minute, why does Vonage get a pass from being taxed and regulated? Just regulate em all! More money for our starving government. Yay! -- Rob |
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 Matt3All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC |
to beaups
Re: how does this impact VOIP?said by beaups:But you are still assuming that once you are throttled that it will impact the quality of the call. Nobody knows yet, but it is not unreasonable to think that once you are on the "slow bus" it would still be sufficient for VOIP. That's what I'm thinking too. A single VoIP call only uses 100Kbps of bandwidth or so at it's peak and it's doubtful that the switch from PBE to BE would cause latency to rise to 200-250ms, the threshold where VoIP is unusable. Unfortunately I have to side with Comcast on this one until it's proven otherwise. |
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to hottboiinnc4
Welcome to the net neutrality issue.
Come on in the water is warm. |
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jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA |
to Matt3
It would be an interesting test to try.
Bandwidth is not the biggest factor when it comes to VoIP from what I have read. Latency and jitter are crucial. If your packets are being delayed and pushed back to the end of the line, so to speak, I would think that the consistency of your data would be compromised and cause anomalies, delays, and artifacts in your sound quality. |
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 Dolgan
Premium Member
join:2005-10-01
Madison, WI |
to hottboiinnc4
Re: And Comcast is rightquote:
They should be going after AT$T for doing the same thing on their network.
Please do tell what VOIP carrier/carriers services are being deprioritized on AT&T's network, or any Telco's network for that matter. This is an issue that is specific to CableCos---at least for now. |
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