Satellite Radio on the Rocks

>>The math doesn't paint a very pretty picture.

Boy, you got that right. They ought to repurpose that satellite for some other task if they know whats good for them.

I guess what disturbs me, not just in this case, but across the spectrum, is the number of financial analysts who can make or break a company, yet understand little if anything about current technologies, be it satellite radio or chip makers, or Cisco. There's no "horizon" anymore, it's "show me the money" or they're sticking a toe-tag on the company.

Exactly! Its the boys on the floor down there on Wall Street that put a company in the dumps. "Lucent didn't make its numbers for 3 quarters and made the brokers look bad. Lets put them in the trash can for a couple of years. BTW, put the whole damn telcom sector with them for a while."
Its not how much money a company has, or what kind of stuff they are pushing. If the stock market wants them as a cheap stock or the opposite, they can do it in one day.

You got it. What kind of buffer or protection does the average company have if the Lucent's, or Cisco's of the world can tank on the word of a couple of Wall Street "Analysts"??

Ya know, you can only cram so much crap down people throat before they figure out they don't really need it. I just can't see one good reason to ever use this service.

I'm sure the same was said when FM was introduced.... or even the Internet...

said by biggbrother:

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I'm sure the same was said when FM was introduced.... or even the Internet...

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Exactly! I'm sure if we give XM(not sirus) some time that it will turn a profit. Sirus was doomed from the start because of their lack of programming compaired to XM. As with all new technology it will be slow to take off. Look at DVD players. I knew some people that said it would never last. But look at it now. It's more popular than VHS. I say just give XM some time to settle in for the long run, and they will most likely be sucessful.

XM is going to meet the numbers 350k for the year that will be $10.00 x 12 x 350,000= 42,000,000 revenue....of course they need over a million or at least start charging more....

Regarding Sirius Programming...

By no means is sirius doomed from the start because of their programming, in fact thats what was going to keep them going. Their programming is much better, as it doesn't contain commercials. What hurt them is their second-to-market performance.

They also had significant chipset problems, thus making inventory on store shelves very low. They didn't advertise, because if they did, it would refer people to XM.

said by tomkb:

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Ya know, you can only cram so much crap down people throat before they figure out they don't really need it. I just can't see one good reason to ever use this service.

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As an over the road trucker, it provides entertainment when nothing can be picked up yo want to listen to.

Ever drove across Texas on interstate 10? If you don't speak Spanish or love Mexican music, the pickings are slim outside the large cities.

Sirius is now going to break even at 2 millions subs with their second generation chipset, which lower hardware subsidies from Sirius by 30% immediately. XM AFAIK is saying they need 3 million subs to break even.

Now, I don't understand where you come in saying that they have a bad programming selection. I believe it is this way... XM chose quantity in music channels, Sirius chose quality. Which would you rather have? Both have 100 channels, but Sirius has 60 commercial free music channels and XM has 71 music channels with 30 or so commercial free. The rest are made up of news, talk, entertainment, and comedy channels.
The only downside I can find in Sirius that XM beats them in is the Comedy channel. That definitely needs some work, but the music selection is fabulous. Sirius Dance Hits beat BPM by far.

They don't deserve any protection whatsoever. Let them rot in hell.

How much of a genious does it take for them to poll the cable radio services too see how popular they are? and they are on averate $8/month. These fools thing people will pay $300 THEN pay a monthly fee? Just look at satellite dish to know better. They are always forced into cutting deals on selling the dish and converter.

Of course this was destined to fail from the start. As much as I love my cable radio, I get it free on the net anyway. Sure I wouldnt mind having satellite radio at $10/month. But I will not invest $300 in a company that was born yesterday. again.

Just consider that it costs them likely as much as it costs dish TV (if not more->RIAA), but they are charging much less.

You can't burn a log twice.

I wouldn't subscribe to satellite radio, but I do have a dish at home. Time Warner cable kept raising their prices, and Directv was/is a better deal, with more channels, and more of what I want.

I dunno, I just think comparing the radio deal to satellite tv is a bad example. However, I agree with your point about paying for the radio, and then paying a subscription fee. We're used to paying for television/movies, but paying to listen to my radio?? No way, especially when I have free music channels via the internet or Directv.

You're not forced (for the most part) to listen to radio for your only entertainment at home.

Try doing anything else other than listening to your radio for entertainment behind the wheel and you're liable to get arrested

XM has over 150,000 subscribers in its first six months of operation. That's a faster adoption rate than satellite TV, DVD, VHS, or the CD player. In fact, it's the fastest growing consumer electronic product ever. That's a fact, I'm not making it up.

Must be a lot of idiots out there.

Anyways, their problem isn't subscribers - it's debt. It costs a lot to build two satellites and put them in orbit.

XM has the right idea. By the end of this year, they should have their target of 350k subscribers, making them $42,000,000 per year. XM Investor Relations has been quoted saying they make about the same in ad revenues yearly. Even at their depressed stock price, they are not in immediate danger of bankruptcy. (Sirius, however, is another matter.)

Your Dish TV comparison, however, is rather dense. You go as far as thinking "Duh, they're both satellites, must cost the same!" Ok.. You're leaving out a big part - programming.. It costs quite a bit less to preprogram several channels with music and rebroadcast audio feeds versus licensing for full video rebroadcast - which, by the way, uses a hell of a lot more bandwidth. XM programming cost the same as Dish programming to produce? I highly doubt it. Think about it. Thinking helps make posts BETTER!

Sirius isn't in anymore danger of filing for bankruptcy than XM is. XM has enough cash to last through Q1 (not the THIRD Quarter) 2003, Sirius has enough to last until Q2 2003. They both need funding or they will be broke. But honestly, with all of their deals as companies... Do you even think their auto partners and radio partners would just let them disappear? Absolutely not.

Just remember, stock prices don't always determine a companies worth.

Following this same logic, everybody who bought a car mp3 player is 'taken advantage of' because they invested in a technology that requires you to buy a different receiver to utilize? Then you have to buy your music to stick in the mp3 player (just assume p2p didn't exist).. same thing really. Difference is one is a fixed fee, the other is up to you.

If XM is up for another 2 years (worst case scenario) your 300$ or so player would have already served it's purpose nicely.

But I think the problem is, it's just radio.. Whatever the means of delivering it, it's still radio. You have as much choice/control as on a FM wave. Well maybe a bit more but I am not going to flip through 50 channels to find that one song while driving around bends and avoiding cattle...

Nice idea, bad logic, collect a penalty slip and proceed to the next booth, XM.

I think you are writing off satellite radio far too fast. It's a far better variety that FM radio, and its music selection is very wide. The same can not be said for traditional radio, it only has about 5 formats to offer.

Go try XM or Sirius in a store nearby, listen closely to the music selection. It's not like regular radio.

You are correct as for the variety of music................but who the hell wants to pay for that.........It is ridiculous to charge a monthly rate to listen to music.........That is just plain idiotic........Free radio will alwayz be better...........

You must not care much about what you listen to, which is fine, traditional radio suits you. But it doesn't suit me and several other million people who are SICK AND TIRED of Clear Channel/Cookie Cutter type radio. I would happily pay 5X's the price, both monthly and for equipment, for what I get out of Sirius.

You must be a millionaire then to like throwing money away..........I on the other hand am not...............Music is music...........It is not going to change..........You can get it free everywhere you look...........Only rich people like throwing money away...........

I am far from a millionare. TV is free everywhere you look too, those 2,000 ft tall towers aren't there to charge you. But I guess under your logic, everyone who has cable, DirecTV, or DISH Network system is throwing their money away too! I am paying for a service that I like, not throwing money away.

Whatever works for you.............I am glad the satellite radio works for you................I am happy w/ my FM/AM radio..............I never run out of music to hear...........Until they shut down the regular radio stations..........looks like satellite radio is wish/wash for me.................Bottom line is we all have diff. needs................

It is pathetic to see how many people don't understand how good these services really are. I can't support HBO, Showtime, Starz, or any movie channel really that I have to pay for because i'm going to see the same things over and over again, but satellite radio is different. It is a way of showing the artists that you care. I am a sirius consumer, and I definitely have to say it transformed my ride from boring long trips that I hated, to enjoyable past times. I drive from Dallas to Houston, to Oklahoma, etc. all the time, and it only gets better with time. Some people don't understand however, that it's also like an art. Music is just like walking in to a museum and looking at artwork hanging on the walls. You don't just steal it. You did have to pay to get in. Same thing goes with a movie theater, you pay to watch a movie a single time, and it did absolutely nothing for you. Sure, you can get in free to all those places, but there's also the consequences. With satellite radio, you are paying to get everything you ask for, and I agree that it's the best thing out there, and can only be related to directv/dish/cable under one circumstance: it's the same exact form of entertainment, just designed for the car. If you can pay or cable, you can pay for satellite. you have to pay an install cost, or sign a contract with these people people, however, and with satellite radio, you don't. Long live Sirius and XM.

I have been waiting for the top of the lines, bmw,audi,infiniti to offer it as part of there packages. Most people dont want extra equipment lying around in their vehical. This is what they have to push.

New cars with XM options.

said by DamnDave:

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I have been waiting for the top of the lines, bmw,audi,infiniti to offer it as part of there packages. Most people dont want extra equipment lying around in their vehical. This is what they have to push.

New cars with XM options.

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Well, while bmw, audi and infiniti don't have XM recivers, you can get them from saturn, cadilliac, chevy, and buick. They are a $100 option in all those models except the caddy's in which case, they are probbly a $400 option No but truethfully, some models of caddies, have them already inside along with OnStar and a year of free access to both.

Personaly, a plain radio works just fine for me. And I would rather see the implmentation of AM Stereo over XM radio. Maybe that's just me I do listen to AM radio more often then I do FM, usually 760 detroit, and 1210 Philly, 1210 less often due to the fact it's across the lakes and hard to pick up unless the conditions are right...which AM stereo is supposed to fix.

AM Stereo? I'd rather see that too. I listen to AM almost exclusively for news & talk radio, because I'm tired of hearing the exact same Lifehouse song every time I turn on one of our bazillion Top 40 stations around here. I miss Detroit's 760 WJR and 950 WWJ. I grew up and Detroit and that AM radio was great to have.

Satellite radio is something I would never subscribe to. My commute is only 20 minutes and I rarely go for road trips -- and if I do, that's what CDs are for. Not to mention the relatively large-footprint satellite antennae you have to put on your car. I'd love to see what one of those things would look like on my Trans Am -- probably like hell.

AM stereo has been talk since the 80s.
I remember having a Sherwood AM stereo/FM stereo receiver in 1985.
Problem? No AM stations could ever broadcast in stereo. It never panned out.

Don't you guys mean digital AM. I live near Pittsburgh, PA, and KDKA (worlds first commercial radio station) has been broadcasting in AM Stereo for as long as I can remember. There aren't many AM stereo receivers around because it's kind of pointless being as most AM stations are primarily talk shows.

I have to agree that XM and the like would probably do better just rebroadcasting existing local radio stations then trying to do their own thing ala cable music stations. I still don't think it would keep them outta bankruptcy however.

You're talking about IBOC (in band-on channel) digital transmission, which is still "coming any day now". AM Stereo was implemented in the early 1980's and is dying a slow, painful death due to lack of "gee whiz" factor and that the market didn't really care one way or another. I still see stations running their AM Stereo exciters, with maybe a dozen radios in their markets actually able to pick it up. When it first was "official" almost all but the basic AM-FM car radios from Chrysler, Ford and GM were AM stereo. Now you'll only find it in the "high end" OEM units.

Funny how XM, et. al. is suffering the same fate.

It's not a compelling product, and except for the niche stuff (read: interesting with no demand a la some cable TV channels) it all sounds just like anything Clear Channel might fling into the air, or worse, like airline music channels. Then there's the problem of prying listeners away from their favorite talk show bully. Subscription Satellite Radio now is just another technology looking for a market. Can you say "Irridium"?

Well, I predicted that these companies were to be beset by problems (financial, logistical) and that they would fail.
I remember reading an article before XM actually launched their service that GM Hughes (the satellite manufacturer) had contacted XM and told them that due to a "manufacturing defect" that their satellites would not last the 15-20 years that was predicted, but 5-7 years because of a defect in the power generation and distribution subsystems.
That was just the start of their nightmare. I decided right then that I was not about to invest in a proprietary technology for a receiver device that would be utterly useless in less than 5 years.
So, this announcement doesn't surprise me at all.

... IMHO ... could never see it being successful ... and I listen to a LOT of music, but I'd prefer to select it myself ...

... why pay for a service that does what your cd or tape player will do as well or better, and you already have them ... convenience is only worth so much, it seems ...

Actually while I listen to mostly intelligent radio->AM. I do enjoy quite a bit the cable radio where the DJs know how to shut the hell up. Its not always party time at 730am while im driving to work. Nor do I hear b!tches and hos shakin they booty while im driving to church...

I enjoy the randomness and continuousness of the music. Throw in an NPR or BBC, I would certainly get on board.

I just can't buy proprietary hardware for a proprietary signal and may or may not exist in 6 months...I can not and I will not.

What will they do with the satellites if they go belly up? Open source em?

Why would anyone who could afford to pay for XM Radio do so when they can buy a CD burner and make their own custom CDs? The same people could also most likely afford MP3 players for their cars.

Has anybody heard XM radio? Its a very low bitrate stream of sound, and it sounds it too. About 48kbps that I heard normally. I heard it can only go to 64Kbps max stream quality as well. Everything I heard sounded like a scratchy low quality MP3, and the bitrates are proof of that.

Overpriced, poor quality products are bound to falter like this.

nothing but ads on xm a few somgs here and there

Cracks me up that although the receiver is $300, the antenna is "Sold separately"! DUH! What good is it without the antenna? They came to my workplace a few months ago to give a demo. The car had a way tricked-out stereo system, and it sounded OK. Several of us asked the guy (young kid, NO tech background) what it sounded like playing through the regular speakers, and he said "You really need a GOOD stereo to get the most out of it!". So they want you to buy another $1000 worth of gear to make it sound good? I don't think so, at least not in MY car.
What a waste of spectrum!
drjim

Like they just did for digital TV, see
»www.foxnews.com/story/0, ··· ,00.html

I think FM is a better comparison than Digital TV. It never took off until every car radio made was AM/FM. If every single new car was SatRad ready, and to listen all you had to do was sign up, maybe they'd have a chance.

And hate to see it stumble or possible fail, the main problem for me was really that the recievers were up to $100+ more expensive then regular cd/tape players.
Bring them down to the same price and I might have considered it.

AM radio stations can go hundreds of miles, so XM and Sirius' claim that you don't have to change stations is bogus. And FM sounds better than XM.
I would like digital AM stations so that great quality music can go hundreds of miles and XM & Sirius would be unnecessary.

Lets see, I can listen to free radio while I drive. Or I can pay a subscription to listen to XM. Hmm, whatever shall I do?

Of course I can (and generally do) listen to my CDs and therefor listen to exactly what I want to listen to when I want to listen to it, without ads or subscription costs.

At the end of the day this is economically a bad idea. It stands to put FM radio out of business, at least thats the objective. I would expect the RIAA to launch their own free satellite service once they grasp the implications.

100s of babbling DJs and sidekicks out of business. Local programming and commercials gone. Now only national commercials from large corporations. You can expound the idea. I do my best to stay away from national chains. The local is to be preferred. Yet for international Trade the national chains are good for the economy. Its a tough issue.

I think we got enough major national corporations, no sense in putting lots of local stations out to pasture for one new major corp..

NOW can they stop trying to power-down the very useful 802.11b to support their useless service?

I subscribe to XM and love the programming and sound quality. I don't have it in my car, but on my home stereo. No doubt that it is a "CD Quality" broadcast. Those that have slammed the service here have done so on speculation and misunderstanding of the amount of advertising (on SOME stations), sound quality and reception. Listen to it on a quality stereo system and you will see where XM excels.

This is the same discussion that people had years ago over cable TV ... "who would ever pay for cable TV when you can get stations over-the-air, for free!". Be open minded and get the facts.

said by dtwilliams:

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I subscribe to XM and love the programming and sound quality.

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I bought one for my mother so she could hear the Fox News Network. After many years of "waiting" for her cable company to carry it, I finally got fed up and bought one for her.

She has it hooked up to her stereo in the house and added the antenna to her car to hook it up there. She absolutely LOVES it, and I haven't heard another complaint since.

I have been an XM subscriber since 12/01. I like my XM Radio for all the right reasons.

Fresh music content (new material that I wasn't aware of).
Undedited content and music (NO Tipper Gore here).
CD's get repetitious after the first pass, no variety.
Music sounds just as good/no different as a CD.
33¢ a day which is cheap.
Advertisements are few and far between. A commercial might consist of "Try the new Mach 3 razor, for a quick smooth shave. try it today". boom! it's gone and they're already on to the next set of music. Not ALL channels have advertisements like the rumor has been spread. There are no 5 minute length commercials of furniture or car dealers screaming at you to come in today to get free financing..etc etc....
DJ's usually answer on the first phone call and have always played my requests.
Pioneer head unit actually displays the Artist and Song title in REAL TIME so I don't have to guess who it was and I can go search the artist on KazaA. Yah, I use Kazaa but I prefer to keep it on my hard drive for home use. Burning CD's has become a pain in the ass timewaster.

"IMHO, don't comment on it unless you've actually spent the money on the equipment and have actually listened to it other than a quick 5 minute demo at a store where a nerdy 17 yo kid works part time."

My favorite channels are:
Channel 81 BPM (worth it alone)
Channel 80
90's
80's
Chrome

The only time you will experience a brief disruption in reception is if you are parked under a bridge, in a parking garage, or you are driving parallel with two tall semi-trailer rigs (I drive a real low car). The tuner box has a buffer of 4 seconds.

I just don't get the negativity surrounding this cool product of satellite radio. I am very pleased with it and will remain a subscriber away from repetitive radio as long as it survives the storm.

Sean
KCMO

XMRADIO has great quality sound and is very diverse in its selection of programming. Just the XM comedy channel is worth the price of admission.

XM satellites were designed by Hughes aircraft who were owned by GM the parent company of Direct TV

GM is a major investor in XMRADIO and is going to make them available in their car lines. So the biggest car manufactuer in the world is putting XMRADIO in their cars so the outlook for XMRADIO is very good

Ok got me some questions here. I have a 2001 Eclipse and i want to get XM but my antenna is built into the hatchback window currently for AM/FM. Do they sell a XM deck that could use that antenna cause ill be damned if im gonna install a nasty antenna on the car. Do they have a XM deck that has a CD player built in it? If they file bankruptcy is it gonna die or just protect the company and we still can order it?

Does anyone know how well these things work in the mountains? I frequently travel from North Carolina to Ohio and Kentucky. I hate hunting for a radio station, and then only being able to listen to it until I go behind the next hill.

Sirius works really well in areas that have mountains since the angle of the satellite is higher than XM's. Usually the only things that ever make the signal cutout is thick trees covering the sky directly above the road. I can drive out near Newman Lake (very hilly and very thick trees) and it only cuts out a couple of times for just a few seconds. Overall, even at its worse, it's still far better than FM.

If you are just going to be going through mountains, it will probably work nearly 100% of the time. XM, i'm not sure because I havn't ever used it in that type of a situation. I can only assume it would have more problems because their satellites are at a 35-45 degree angle in NC.

I live in southwest Virgina, and I have had no trouble with XM radio in the mountains. Like the previous poster said with Sirius, the signal rarely drops out. And if it does, it is only for a couple of seconds. The drive from Blacksburg to Richmond (4 hours) is so much more enjoyable since I got XM.

i have tried many times to contact Sirius as a member and i do enjoy the music although Pamela Anderson and the dj's talking about shoveling sidewalks and other bs non stop between almost every song is not what i pay for. its been almost 5 months and i have got one response and it was that others enjoy what they do on the station so here i am and as well it would be a great improvement to have a complaint # listed oh well. well after reviews of others i think i will stick with the radio and save some money.

What is XM radio?