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Comments on news posted 2003-04-26 13:20:15: Though its existence has been denied, revisions may be in store for the controversial Patriot Act, which could impact everything from broadband communications to encryption. ..


Logan 5
What a long strange trip its been
Premium Member
join:2001-05-25
San Francisco, CA

Logan 5

Premium Member

Can the Government REALLY get away with this?

WOW!! If that's true, then we ALL need to be concerned enough to protect what little remaining rights we have left and try to stop this legislature from ever becoming law.

ISP's do NOT need to be the police. It has been said before, but I guess the government didn't listen.

They already regularly intercept email & internet activity for many times less than 'legal' reasons at the government's request, and now they want to get the ISP's to do their dirty work for them as a Corp of 'snitches'?

Sounds more like Hitler's Secret Police than the United States of America. Where is the unity when the people in power are doing everything they can behind the scenes to divide the populace, make them paranoid and distrusting of everyone around them, all under the guise of 'National safety and Security'.....

wozster
Premium Member
join:2000-10-21
Morrisville, NC

wozster

Premium Member

Re: Can the Government REALLY get away with this?

I donate to the EFF, how about you?

Have a nice day

fiqqq
Mr. Chainsaw
Premium Member
join:2003-01-23
Wilmette, IL

fiqqq to Logan 5

Premium Member

to Logan 5
said by Logan 5:
They already regularly intercept email & internet activity for many times less than 'legal' reasons at the government's request, and now they want to get the ISP's to do their dirty work for them as a Corp of 'snitches'?

Sounds more like Hitler's Secret Police than the United States of America. Where is the unity when the people in power are doing everything they can behind the scenes to divide the populace, make them paranoid and distrusting of everyone around them, all under the guise of 'National safety and Security'.....
True, True. All this 'National safety and Security' bs is starting to just be an excuse for invasion of privacy. Its making me really mad.

BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
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join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX

BrianDamage06 to Logan 5

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to Logan 5
Well, if people are just NOW becoming concerned, then they haven't been paying much attention, or have just been "duh, okay" SHEEP.
I have voicing my grievances against these agendas for a long time now, at every level and opportunity possible, and everyone else should be doing so.
If people have not been concerned before, then they must be now.
Better late than never, I suppose.
FauxReal
join:2001-12-11
Portland, OR

FauxReal

Member

Re: Can the Government REALLY get away with this?

A good book that addresses blindness of society in the face of obviously alarming ideas is, "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn.

Its presented as a work of fiction... the dialouge between the two main characters is rather thought provoking.

iam me
Cunnilingus Is Next To Godliness
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join:2001-08-05
Ojai, CA

2 recommendations

iam me

Premium Member

The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

I edited this down, but it's still a bit big. Sorry for the length, but all of the historical points are relevant here.

Enjoy

Peace

The 70th anniversary wasn't noticed in the United States, and was barely reported in the corporate media. But the Germans remembered well that fateful day seventy years ago - February 27, 1933. They commemorated the anniversary by joining in demonstrations for peace that mobilized citizens all across the world. It started when the government, in the midst of a worldwide economic crisis, received reports of an imminent terrorist attack. A foreign ideologue had launched feeble attacks on a few famous buildings, but the media largely ignored his relatively small efforts. The intelligence services knew, however, that the odds were he would eventually succeed. (Historians are still arguing whether or not rogue elements in the intelligence service helped the terrorist; the most recent research implies they did not.)

But the warnings of investigators were ignored at the highest levels, in part because the government was distracted; the man who claimed to be the nation's leader had not been elected by a majority vote and the majority of citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted. He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world. His coarse use of language - reflecting his political roots in a southernmost state - and his simplistic and often-inflammatory nationalistic rhetoric offended the aristocrats, foreign leaders, and the well-educated elite in the government and media. And, as a young man, he'd joined a secret society with an occult-sounding name and bizarre initiation rituals that involved skulls and human bones.

Nonetheless, he knew the terrorist was going to strike (although he didn't know where or when), and he had already considered his response. When an aide brought him word that the nation's most prestigious building was ablaze, he verified it was the terrorist who had struck and then rushed to the scene and called a press conference.

"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history," he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. "This fire," he said, his voice trembling with emotion, "is the beginning." He used the occasion - "a sign from God," he called it - to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their evil deeds in their religion.

Two weeks later, the first detention center for terrorists was built in Oranianberg to hold the first suspected allies of the infamous terrorist. In a national outburst of patriotism, the leader's flag was everywhere, even printed large in newspapers suitable for window display.

Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation's now-popular leader had pushed through legislation - in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it - that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people's homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism.

To get his patriotic "Decree on the Protection of People and State" passed over the objections of concerned legislators and civil libertarians, he agreed to put a 4-year sunset provision on it: if the national emergency provoked by the terrorist attack was over by then, the freedoms and rights would be returned to the people, and the police agencies would be re-restrained. Legislators would later say they hadn't had time to read the bill before voting on it.

Immediately after passage of the anti-terrorism act, his federal police agencies stepped up their program of arresting suspicious persons and holding them without access to lawyers or courts. In the first year only a few hundred were interred, and those who objected were largely ignored by the mainstream press, which was afraid to offend and thus lose access to a leader with such high popularity ratings. Citizens who protested the leader in public - and there were many - quickly found themselves confronting the newly empowered police's batons, gas, and jail cells, or fenced off in protest zones safely out of earshot of the leader's public speeches. (In the meantime, he was taking almost daily lessons in public speaking, learning to control his tonality, gestures, and facial expressions. He became a very competent orator.)
Playing on this new nationalism, and exploiting a disagreement with the French over his increasing militarism, he argued that any international body that didn't act first and foremost in the best interest of his own nation was neither relevant nor useful. He thus withdrew his country from the League Of Nations in October, 1933, and then negotiated a separate naval armaments agreement with Anthony Eden of The United Kingdom to create a worldwide military ruling elite.

His propaganda minister orchestrated a campaign to ensure the people that he was a deeply religious man and that his motivations were rooted in Christianity. He even proclaimed the need for a revival of the Christian faith across his nation, what he called a "New Christianity." Every man in his rapidly growing army wore a belt buckle that declared "Gott Mit Uns" - God Is With Us - and most of them fervently believed it was true.

Within a year of the terrorist attack, the nation's leader determined that the various local police and federal agencies around the nation were lacking the clear communication and overall coordinated administration necessary to deal with the terrorist threat facing the nation, particularly those citizens who were of Middle Eastern ancestry and thus probably terrorist and communist sympathizers, and various troublesome "intellectuals" and "liberals." He proposed a single new national agency to protect the security of the homeland, consolidating the actions of dozens of previously independent police, border, and investigative agencies under a single leader.

He appointed one of his most trusted associates to be leader of this new agency, the Central Security Office for the homeland, and gave it a role in the government equal to the other major departments.

His assistant who dealt with the press noted that, since the terrorist attack, "Radio and press are at our disposal." Those voices questioning the legitimacy of their nation's leader, or raising questions about his checkered past, had by now faded from the public's recollection as his central security office began advertising a program encouraging people to phone in tips about suspicious neighbors. This program was so successful that the names of some of the people "denounced" were soon being broadcast on radio stations. Those denounced often included opposition politicians and celebrities who dared speak out - a favorite target of his regime and the media he now controlled through intimidation and ownership by corporate allies.

To consolidate his power, he concluded that government alone wasn't enough. He reached out to industry and forged an alliance, bringing former executives of the nation's largest corporations into high government positions. A flood of government money poured into corporate coffers to fight the war against the Middle Eastern ancestry terrorists lurking within the homeland, and to prepare for wars overseas. He encouraged large corporations friendly to him to acquire media outlets and other industrial concerns across the nation, particularly those previously owned by suspicious people of Middle Eastern ancestry. He built powerful alliances with industry; one corporate ally got the lucrative contract worth millions to build the first large-scale detention center for enemies of the state. Soon more would follow. Industry flourished.

With his number two man - a master at manipulating the media - he began a campaign to convince the people of the nation that a small, limited war was necessary. Another nation was harboring many of the suspicious Middle Eastern people, and even though its connection with the terrorist who had set afire the nation's most important building was tenuous at best, it held resources their nation badly needed if they were to have room to live and maintain their prosperity. He called a press conference and publicly delivered an ultimatum to the leader of the other nation, provoking an international uproar. He claimed the right to strike preemptively in self-defense, and nations across Europe - at first - denounced him for it, pointing out that it was a doctrine only claimed in the past by nations seeking worldwide empire, like Caesar's Rome or Alexander's Greece.

It took a few months, and intense international debate and lobbying with European nations, but, after he personally met with the leader of the United Kingdom, finally a deal was struck. After the military action began, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told the nervous British people that giving in to this leader's new first-strike doctrine would bring "peace for our time." Thus Hitler annexed Austria in a lightning move, riding a wave of popular support as leaders so often do in times of war. The Austrian government was unseated and replaced by a new leadership friendly to Germany, and German corporations began to take over Austrian resources.

In a speech responding to critics of the invasion, Hitler said, "Certain foreign newspapers have said that we fell on Austria with brutal methods. I can only say; even
in death they cannot stop lying. I have in the course of my political struggle won much love from my people, but when I crossed the former frontier [into Austria] there met me such a stream of love as I have never experienced. Not as tyrants have we come, but as liberators."

To deal with those who dissented from his policies, at the advice of his politically savvy advisors, he and his handmaidens in the press began a campaign to equate him and his policies with patriotism and the nation itself. National unity was essential, they said, to ensure that the terrorists or their sponsors didn't think they'd succeeded in splitting the nation or weakening its will. In times of war, they said, there could be only "one people, one nation, and one commander-in-chief" ("Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer"), and so his advocates in the media began a nationwide campaign charging that critics of his policies were attacking the nation itself. Those questioning him were labeled "anti-German" or "not good Germans," and it was suggested they were aiding the enemies of the state by failing in the patriotic necessity of supporting the nation's valiant men in uniform. It was one of his most effective ways to stifle dissent and pit wage-earning people (from whom most of the army came) against the "intellectuals and liberals" who were critical of his policies.

A year later, to the week, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia; the nation was now fully at war, and all internal dissent was suppressed in the name of national security. It was the end of Germany's first experiment with democracy.

As we conclude this review of history, there are a few milestones worth remembering. February 27, 2003, was the 70th anniversary of Dutch terrorist Marinus van der Lubbe's successful firebombing of the German Parliament (Reichstag) building, the terrorist act that catapulted Hitler to legitimacy and reshaped the German constitution. By the time of his successful and brief action to seize Austria, in which almost no German blood was shed, Hitler was the most beloved and popular leader in the history of his nation. Hailed around the world, he was later Time magazine's "Man Of The Year."

Most Americans remember his office for the security of the homeland, known as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and its SchutzStaffel, simply by its most famous agency's initials: the SS.

We also remember that the Germans developed a new form of highly violent warfare they named "lightning war" or blitzkrieg, which, while generating devastating civilian losses, also produced a highly desirable "shock and awe" among the nation's leadership according to the authors of the 1996 book "Shock And Awe" published by the National Defense University Press.

Germany's response was to use government to empower corporations and reward the society's richest individuals, privatize much of the commons, stifle dissent, strip people of constitutional rights, and create an illusion of prosperity through continual and ever-expanding war. America passed minimum wage laws to raise the middle class, enforced anti-trust laws to diminish the power of corporations, increased taxes on corporations and the wealthiest individuals, created Social Security, and became the employer of last resort through programs to build national infrastructure, promote the arts, and replant forests.

To the extent that our Constitution is still intact, the choice is again ours. Thom Hartmann lived and worked in Germany during the 1980s, and is the author of over a dozen books, including "Unequal Protection" and "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight." This article is copyright by Thom Hartmann, but permission is granted for reprint in print, email, blog, or web media so long as this credit is attached.

rwhubert
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join:2002-07-26
Atlanta, GA

rwhubert

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

Buschreich, Sieg Heil! Let's consider whether this analogy actually fits current history. I'm hoping it doesn't, otherwise we are all in a heap of trouble.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

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quote:
He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world.
Hitler turned a ruined and troubled nation with no economy and no hope into a vibrant nation that almost conquered the world. Bush turned a vibrant nation with a great economy into what most countries see as a royal pain in everyones ass. Hitler was a genious and very intelligent. Bush is an idiot and has always proved himself to be an idiot.
[/Quote](In the meantime, he was taking almost daily lessons in public speaking, learning to control his tonality, gestures, and facial expressions. He became a very competent orator.)[/Quote]
Hitler was always a great orator. Before he gave his first speech before the croud that was to become the Nazi party his colleagues told him he shouldn't speak as he would disgrace himself and the party. When he was finished with is speach the croud was absolutely stunned. His colleagues apologised. Bush has always been a poor speaker, and though improved, continues to be a poor speaker. All he ever does is repeat the same old rhettoric that every other politician says. Never says anything worth noteing unless you are looking to pick fun at him. He moves a crowd like a bad laxative.

These facts give me hope. Hitler was a superb genious. That's how he was able to pull of the terrible atrocities he did and do it so well. Bush will never pull off anything amazing without being a puppet for the men behind the scenes. This is the advantage we have over the Germans from that age. We have an idiot to battle, they had a mad genious to battle.
All in all the similarities are startling.
Cyron
join:2002-09-24
Charlotte, NC

Cyron

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

Sorry, but Hitler was no genius. He was a car salesman. He was intelligent, but so is 'W' to a fasion. Had Hitler been a genius, he wouldn't have invaded Russia until England was out of the way, as his military advisors suggested. Also after he invaded Russia, he again ignored common wisdom by pushing a bad position. His advisors told him to retreat and consolidate. He was so confident in his own 'genius' idea that he sent even more troops to Stalingrad. As Vizzini said in a classic quote, "Ha Ha you fool, you fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia..."

Hitler continued to make bad decisions until he was out of options, then made his best decision (suicide).

koitsu
MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA

koitsu

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

I see no correlation between being a genius and being perfect.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

That's basically what I was going to post. I mean he joined an organisation of 5 with extremely radical unpopular views, overcame all possible odds and made it the leading party. He then took a country in an extremely sorry and helpless state and made it the leading world super power that came sooo super close to defeating an army comprised of every major nation in the world. Hitler was very hard headed and it doesn't surprise me that he didn't listen to his advisors despite common sense. He made some bad moves and then lost a war, but came so close to winning despite having everything going against him, mainly the rest of the world. Read Mein Kampf. It's a brilliant book. It's a shame someone so brilliant and powerful was so damn mean and crazy. His social and economic policies worked incredibly well.
Back on topic I do agree with MoeDumb and tomkcr (despite our long battle last time this was brought up ) that we before we get too crazy mad we should wait on reliabe sources to come out to confirm this. I just hope it's not too late by that time.
Cyron
join:2002-09-24
Charlotte, NC

Cyron

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

I agree that Hitler was a brilliant politician and an excellent orator. When he spoke to miners, he'd wear coveralls and a cap. When he spoke to factory workers, he'd put grease on his jacket. He convinced Germany that they had lost the first war because of the lack of effort on the homefront, not from a superior enemy. He played to the Germans fear and gave them someone to blame (Jews) for their current despair. Sound familiar? Bush is playing on those same fears to the general populace. He's getting legislation passed, that under normal circumstances would be laughed at.

Political ability (even to that great extent) doesn't make him more intelligent. In fact, that he built his political ideals on such an unattainable goal, makes him less. Even if I agreed that he was close to success (very arguable), I would never agree that he built the base for a prospering empire.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

quote:
I would never agree that he built the base for a prospering empire.
I think he built the base for a prospering empire...assuming you were white. Mein Kampf is a good example of the importance of multi culturalism and the dangers of nationalism. It really opens your eyes to how terrible it is when people take advantage of people because of their race or ethnic background.

Ianguy
join:2002-06-09
Tehachapi, CA

Ianguy

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

said by Maxo:
Mein Kampf is a good example of the importance of multi culturalism and the dangers of nationalism.

I agree with you, except for the nationalism part.

from Webster's:

Nationalism - "loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups"

A nation can be multi-cultural, like the US. Nationalism is not racism. Furthermore, nationalism is an important part of a nation being a nation. I'm sorry, but there ARE cultures that are incompatible, and it is a mutual incompatibility. Imagine some African or South American tribes being dropped in the middle of New York, L.A., or Huston. Extreme nationalism is always a bad idea (as evident in Mein Kampf), because people can confuse culture and race (which is what every true racist does).

Anyway, I agree with you, but I think you should have added the adjective "extreme"

-Ian

P.S. Bush is nowhere near Hitler; show me some EVIDENCE if you are going to make accusations, and subtle parallels between their respective handling of terrorism is not evidence.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

Well, yes. Extreme nationalism is dangerous. I think exalting your nation above other is wrong but not necessarily dangerous unless you are wrong. I love my country, and being raised in the south I love you south and things like grits and boiled peanuts. This is healthy. I don't necessarily believe that these are better than other cultures though. That's the line between patriotism and nationalism. I believe strongly in my culture. I am willing to work hard for my community. That's patriotism. Putting a flag on your SUV and saying America is the best country in the world ever is Nationalism. Nationalism has nothing to do with building up your country. But all forms of nationalism are not bad. It's just when people turn a blind eye to other cultures and critisise people for being different. That's when the danger sets in. Yes nationalism is not racism, and you are right, it's when you become an extreme nationalist that it's dangerous.

rstrandb
Howl at the moon
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join:2003-04-17
Albany, GA

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said by Maxo:
Read Mein Kampf. It's a brilliant book. It's a shame someone so brilliant and powerful was so damn mean and crazy. His social and economic policies worked incredibly well.

Personally, ANY reference comparing anyone to this madman is sickening. As far as Hitler's social and economic policies.....they included forced labor and GENOCIDE. nuff said bout that

biff420
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join:2002-01-26
Vallejo, CA
·Comcast XFINITY

biff420

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

said by rstrandb:

Personally, ANY reference comparing anyone to this madman is sickening. As far as Hitler's social and economic policies.....they included forced labor and GENOCIDE. nuff said bout that
Force labor, and Genocide. Much like early American
history. Many American Indian tribes that weren't
exterminated by America live in poverty in the richest
nation in the world.

For our experience, the 2 party system has done nothing
but loot. Speaking of Looting.. wonder why Ken Laye is
still free. Campaign contributions really do pay off.

Who says crime doesn't pay? Zieg Hiel

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

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to rstrandb
said by rstrandb:
said by Maxo:
Read Mein Kampf. It's a brilliant book. It's a shame someone so brilliant and powerful was so damn mean and crazy. His social and economic policies worked incredibly well.

Personally, ANY reference comparing anyone to this madman is sickening. As far as Hitler's social and economic policies.....they included forced labor and GENOCIDE. nuff said bout that
I don't understand how the comment I made is relevant to your response. I didn' compare anyone to anybody. If anything I stated it was probably a stretch to compare the two (Hitler and Bush.) I think your use of the word to anyone isn't accurate. There are plenty of people who can be compared to Hitler. What about Andrew Jackson. What makes him so much different. He participated in genocide and extremely brutal tactics to preserve the white race. He included forced labor and GENOCIDE. nuff said about that.

Penguins3
Have You Played Atari Today?
join:2001-12-01
Cleveland, OH

Penguins3

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Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

And leaving the poor to starvation and suicide isnt a form of slavery?

matt986634
join:2002-08-28
Dyer, IN

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said by Cyron:
Sorry, but Hitler was no genius. He was a car salesman. He was intelligent, but so is 'W' to a fasion. Had Hitler been a genius, he wouldn't have invaded Russia until England was out of the way, as his military advisors suggested. Also after he invaded Russia, he again ignored common wisdom by pushing a bad position. His advisors told him to retreat and consolidate. He was so confident in his own 'genius' idea that he sent even more troops to Stalingrad. As Vizzini said in a classic quote, "Ha Ha you fool, you fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia..."

Hitler continued to make bad decisions until he was out of options, then made his best decision (suicide).
Hitler invaded Russia because, like FDR, he did not trust the Russians. He knew that they would double cross him. He also believed that the Russian citizens would join with him to wipe out communism. He was wrong, but it was too late to back out. He had no choice but to deploy more troops in an effort to keep the Russians at bay.
Cyron
join:2002-09-24
Charlotte, NC

Cyron

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

Hitler invaded Russia for Lebensraum, not because of any fear of the Russians. No country trusted Stalin, but Russia was not in a position to project power. Germany could not be seriously threatened by the Russians at that time. No country at that time (even the UK) posed a threat to Germany. His initial campaigns (even France) required little risk, but by starting a two front war, especially one that divided his air and land units, he displayed his ineptness for military strategy. His military decisions were questionable at best, and absolute ignorance otherwise.

Ianguy
join:2002-06-09
Tehachapi, CA

Ianguy

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

He went into Russia for the oil, didn't he?
npyoung
join:2002-09-23
Jacksonville, OR

npyoung

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

Correct. He was going for the first really large oil deposit in the world; Baku, where both Stalin and the Nobel brothers got their start. Had Hitler managed to get and keep Baku, WWII would have likely had a different ending. As a matter of fact, if you read "The Prize", it's implied that the strategy of WWII was denial of energy resources to the opposing team. America did it's utmost to keep the oil rich Dutch East Indies (Indonesia)from falling into Japanese hands, for example, with the result that the Japanese air force was running on gasoline derived from tree roots at the end, and the Germans were kept away from Baku, so ended up with "oil" products derived from coal.

It was Texas oil, in fact, that was largely responsible for the allied victories in both WWI and WWII. In both cases, the Germans...and then, the Japanese...ran out of gas. Machines need oil; war machines need a lot of oil. And good oil...high octane, performance oil. The Axis powers didn't have it. We did.

Ianguy
join:2002-06-09
Tehachapi, CA

Ianguy

Member

Re: The fourth reich has begun - hile bush....NOT!

The Japanise also failed to destroy the fuel dumps in Peal Harbor I believe, also.
BunnYwood
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join:2002-06-19
Sioux City, IA

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The Russian citizens would have joined him if he hadn't ordered them all rounded up and killed. Just one of his many mistakes.
JRVS
join:2001-06-01
Houston, TX

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Edited for length??

Reader's Digest Condensed Books credits its sources. IMHO, you should, too. Or, instead, and much faster, just post the link to the original:

»www.commondreams.org/vie ··· 6-08.htm

(Oops, I replied to the wrong message...this was intended as a reply to Budhaboy.)
[text was edited by author 2003-04-26 22:52:54]

Buttset
join:2001-11-12
Ladson, SC

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I believe "those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it" is a basic truth, but when someone compares the United States of today with pre-WWW II/Nazi Germany, the similarities just don't exist. The State of Iraq will NOT be our 51st state, Hitler wanted the world under his command.
kherr
Premium Member
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL

2 recommendations

kherr

Premium Member

Who ????

So we saved Iraq from it's government ...... so who is going to save us from ours ???

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

No such act has been introduced in Congress

Everyone is getting really worked up over an act(Domestic Security Enhancement Act) that has not been introduced in either house of congress. The Electronic Frontier Foundation gets a stolen copy of a draft document(thousands of laws are drafted by hundreds of attorneys every month) and then issues a call to man the barricades.

Before the letter writing campaign starts, why not wait to see IF and WHAT is introduced first. Maybe then I'll worry if my rights are being abridged.
shaggy192
join:2002-07-26
Vancouver, WA

1 recommendation

shaggy192

Member

Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

said by FFH5:
Everyone is getting really worked up over an act(Domestic Security Enhancement Act) that has not been introduced in either house of congress. The Electronic Frontier Foundation gets a stolen copy of a draft document(thousands of laws are drafted by hundreds of attorneys every month) and then issues a call to man the barricades.

Before the letter writing campaign starts, why not wait to see IF and WHAT is introduced first. Maybe then I'll worry if my rights are being abridged.

Can you say "Pre-emptive strike"?

KrK
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KrK

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Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

said by shaggy192:
Can you say "Pre-emptive strike"?
Exactly. Playing "Wait and see" has gotten us where we are now in the first place.

Which would you rather do: Repair a bridge before or after it has collapsed?

statemachine
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join:2001-01-21
Si Valley

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The last time a "Patriot Act" was passed, there was little to no public discussion and it was rammed through a Congress whose heads were still ringing from the WTC/Pentagon attacks. As with the budget, many senators and congressmen said "I don't even know what I voted for."

Does no one find it the least bit troubling that *one* political party controls all three branches of the government?

JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA

JakCrow

Member

Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

There was NO public discussion. A 300+ page law was enacted by our cowardly politicians afraid of being branded anti-American. Most of them didn't even know what was in it or what PATRIOT stood for with the name of the bill.
Sarge_0321
join:2002-06-27
San Diego, CA

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Think of dominos. Falling.

One thing leads to another.

After successive laws get passed... after a while.. you'll wonder just at what point did they get the power to control your every move.

Study not just Bush but the people (whom we did not vote for) who are pulling his strings.

Interesting answers may lie in wait.

BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium Member
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX

1 recommendation

BrianDamage06

Premium Member

Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

said by Sarge_0321:
Think of dominos. Falling.

One thing leads to another.

After successive laws get passed... after a while.. you'll wonder just at what point did they get the power to control your every move.

Interesting answers may lie in wait.
(Edited for relevance in my response.)
Ever hear the expression "tyranny comes in inches"?
It's what happens when people are unaware of laws and such are getting passed right under our noses, but don't notice until, all of a sudden, the proponderance of all these laws amount to a conspiratory denial of what were once "unalienable rights."
This is what is happening folks. And the worst part is, the hysteria after 9/11 fueled the fire (it was the impetus that was necessary to pass these laws) and the American people ALLOWED this Patriot Act to fly through Congress with no discussion, no scrutiny, no criticism, and no offer of alternatives.
Paranoia got the best of us, and now people are realizing the detriment.

ComputerGod
join:2002-10-13
Marietta, GA

ComputerGod to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:
Everyone is getting really worked up over an act(Domestic Security Enhancement Act) that has not been introduced in either house of congress. The Electronic Frontier Foundation gets a stolen copy of a draft document(thousands of laws are drafted by hundreds of attorneys every month) and then issues a call to man the barricades.

Before the letter writing campaign starts, why not wait to see IF and WHAT is introduced first. Maybe then I'll worry if my rights are being abridged.

I am appalled that you would even think, let alone suggest, that we do not keep vigil to see what's on the horizon. I fail to believe that you do not believe in being prepared. May I suggest that you read Sun Tzu's "Art of War"?

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armyrebel4
Dream Chaser
Premium Member
join:2002-01-08
Springfield, IL

armyrebel4 to FFH5

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Even if the thing was passed, do you know how many lawsuits will be filed against it? Not to mention the supreme court, and many other ones will just have to say it is unconstitutional, which it is and then it will be thrown out. When it is thrown out, there is not a damn thing congress can do about it except to keep on rewriting a watered down version of the bill.

JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA

JakCrow

Member

Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

It's going to take at least 2 years for any suits to get to the Supreme Court, meanwhile, the PATRIOT act is still in effect.
xena
join:2003-02-23

1 recommendation

xena

Member

Re: No such act has been introduced in Congress

Do not lure yourself, in the "right condition" a normal 2 year could take a small 2 week completely un-opposed.

We have not forgotten the aftershock of September 11.

Most of the condition are actually in place. A press that speak only one voice, a government very emotionally driven and willing to use whatever means it takes, i.e. play on people's fear.

All it takes now is another hit on sensitive American interest to blind its population eyes and senses. At this time, we cannot just say that this government has not been provocative.
A crazy individual may just react to what he see as provocation and they may even help by knowingly avoiding to prevent it.
Bottom line:
The simple fact that they are preparing says it all.
Bush is not alone and they are still putting their team in place.

Lets hope than mankind can keep its reason in these chaotic times ahead. If you have someone to love you are lucky!

Shamayim
Premium Member
join:2002-09-23

Shamayim

Premium Member

The new "SS" (Snoop and Snitch)?

I'm against ISPs sticking their nose in citizens' internetting as much as the next guy but, come on, Heil Bush Third Reich analogies is a bit much.

smactek
join:2000-08-28
North Highlands, CA

3 recommendations

smactek

Member

Proactive Citizens shape Changes

I must admit, living in the US. I dont whole heartedly agree with the US Invasion of Iraq. Im also not fully Convinced that 911 was just a Terrorist Attack. However those things have passed. Changing them is to late. Being an observer myself, it seems we (american public) generaly have the "wait until things are getting out of hand" kind of attitude towards laws and privelages. However, the one strongest power we posses (at present) is the "right" to collaborate, discuss, and negotiate future changes in our lifestyle. I have found myself being stripped, little by little of the freedoms I had so ungraitously taken for granted. I believe now we as a civiliztion more then ever, need to start Proactively Ensure changes arent introduced that effect our rights. It seems so ez to say "things were so much better back then" and accept the changes that get made, as opposed to trying to figure out how to maintain our freedom and stand up for personal rights. Because if we all dont start taking a stand. we will be left with the freedom to do what someone else thinks best. A simple example is the 5 states that have amended the DMCA Laws so graciously introduced by the government. Those laws include making it ILLEGAL to mask your IP or using Encryption. One of the finest Linux Based Security Programs (LaBrea) has been taken offline, because of the authors fear of being prosecuted for breaking the law! If we dont start writing emails and taking a stand NOW! Im afraid the WWW as we know it will soon become a fond memory. Please email a congressman or senator about anything! While you still can. If we pursue a little more proactive thinking, perhaps we can actually control our destiny. S. Mac

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11337845 (banned)
Live free or die
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA

11337845 (banned)

Member

The MPAA, RIAA, and bad politicians deserve this!

Picture removed due to weak stomachs....

Those RAT BASTARDS!
[text was edited by author 2003-04-26 17:37:32]

rwhubert
Premium Member
join:2002-07-26
Atlanta, GA

1 recommendation

rwhubert

Premium Member

Re: The MPAA, RIAA, and bad politicians deserve th

You could have made your point using words, assuming you know how to use them, rather than posting a gross-out picture of a person with face blown off.
11337845 (banned)
Live free or die
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA

11337845 (banned)

Member

Re: The MPAA, RIAA, and bad politicians deserve th

A picture is worth a thousand words, not to mention my fingers are tired of typing.

rshoch
@o1.com

rshoch

Anon

Baby Steps.

Pic worth less than article's words.

Seems to me a next step leads to FCC promotion of media diversity.
qworster
join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

1 recommendation

qworster

Member

The scary thing about the Bush Presidency.....

The scary thing about the Bush Presidency is that they seem to have adopted a "shoot, ready, aim" philosophy to just about everything. Their knee-jerk reaction to 9-11 was one. The invasion of Iraq was another. In the Iraq case, we invaded them, won the war and now because there was NO POST WAR PLANNING, we're facing the possibility of an Islamic Republic there much like Iran!
I play chess. Chess is a war game in which you try to win a country/flag. One of the things you learn from playing chess is that something you do now can affect you several moves down the line. When playing chess you have to PLAN several moves ahead...you have to THINK about how the move you're now making can/will affect the game 2 moves, 5 moves, 10 moves from now. This is common sense, something that our present administration seems woefully short of!
What now, GW? Do you even know? Did you even think about it or were you too busy playing with your war toys?
In a way, it's our fault, but maybe it isn't. People don't vote because they don't think their vote will matter. The 2000 election fiasco in Florida proved that they just might be right. All you need is your brother to be Governor there and his lover to be Secretary of State and you'll win regardless of how ANYONE votes! I'm just hoping and praying that the 700 billion - 1 trillion dollar additional deficit we're likely facing after 4 years of G.W. Bush (after he inherited a surplus no less from that AWFUL Clinton!) will make people angry enough to throw all the scoundrels out!

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SomeName
@ny325.east.verizon.n

SomeName

Anon

Clinton not so bad

I agree that Clinton's affair with Monica was not something to obsess over, but what about his pardons at the end of the presidency? Like some of the things we see in the current presidency, those were made possible by key insiders close to the prez's ear.

ravital
Just Another Pesky Independent Nh Voter
Premium Member
join:2001-07-19
Merrimack, NH

ravital

Premium Member

You know what's really sad...

Here are organizations like the EFF, who have no goal other than to be a watchdog of an industry and of government, presenting thoughtful, serious analysis of disturbing news, and all they manage to evoke in response is nothing but idiotic comparisons between Bush and Hitler, and between America and Nazi Germany, and by people who can't even spell "heil" correctly.

There are serious reasons to worry here folks, very serious. And these knee-jerk, from-the-hip responses and comparisons that may make you feel good initially, in the end do nothing but contribute to loss of credibility for all those, like the EFF, who have serious arguments to present. They do nothing but make it easier for whatever "mainstream" happens to be in vogue this week to dismiss serious people with serious concerns as just looney, whacko, deluded Cassandras.

It's easy enough to get outraged at these comparisons, but I'm not going to do that, because indignation only has the effect of reinforcing the belief among authors of these half-baked arguments that if someone is outraged at them, they must have touched a nerve, and therefore must be on to something. So instead, I'll take them more seriously than they deserve, and ask the following questions:

Which ethnic or political group in America (or in Iraq for that matter) is being forced to wear a colored patch on their clothing to identify them to the rest of us, as a first step towards extermination?

What news organizations are being shut down? Which reporters are being jailed or executed?

What industries are being nationalized?

Which harmless country have we invaded or are we planning to invade, and by harmless I mean a country comparable to Poland or Belgium in the 1930s?

There, I've taken you seriously, now answer these questions and explain how America is becoming the Fourth Reich. Why not? I mean, God forbid we should do something serious and useful for a change, like pester our Senators and Congressmen/women/whatever with SERIOUS letters and emails, or get organized, or even worse, VOTE. Perish the thought.

Everyone has the right to say anything they want, a right that I would defend to my dying breath, but I will be just as stubborn about my right (and anyone else's) to dismiss them as "not serious" (to be polite) based on the level of idiocy of their arguments. Freedom of expression is not a guarantee that you will be listened to. Want to be taken seriously? Be serious.

And a last note to anyone believing that George W. Bush is an idiot:

You graduate from Yale, even with a C average.
You complete an MBA at Harvard.
You run against a tremendously popular incumbent governor when everyone tells you you don't stand a chance in hell, and clean her clock.
You get re-elected to the same office by a margin of 2:1 against all odds.
You engage in presidential debates with an opponent perceived as a master debater, with the whole world convinced that he's a genius and you're a moron, and defeat him three times.
You enact a historic tax cut with a very partisan Congress standing in loud and vehement opposition to you.
You get a majority of your party elected to Congress with the whole country believing you're a moron.

THEN, if you still call Bush an idiot, I'll take you seriously.

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