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Comments on news posted 2006-01-17 10:03:08: Users in our security forum debate and discuss this BBC article that suggests Mac users are "too smug" when it comes to online security. ..

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amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

there may not be cheese on the moon

I'm starting to think OSX might be on to something... instead of all these various linux flavors and talk about making a better, more user friendly desktop, Jobs went ahead and already did that folks...
A nice 'nix setup that is fairly standardized, easy to use, and just plain works like it should... what a novel idea.

I have no idea here, is there even any antivirus software for mac these days??? Shouldn't there at least be some form of double checking your system against what its own norms?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5

Premium Member

'Too Smug' is a good description

Follow all the news thread here at BBR and every time a Windows bug is announced or an exploit is uncovered, you can be sure there will be a MAC user or two in there crowing about how their MAC OS is invulnerable and that they don't have to worry about applying monthly fixes. Well, the day will come when the MAC community is ravaged by an exploit or two and I guess then all the Windows users will get to say "I told you so".

neuronbob
Cavs NBA Champs 2016
join:2000-03-30
Bedford, OH

neuronbob

Member

This Mac user is not smug

A virus infected my system once while in system 8--this was years ago. I started using NAV afterward and only stopped using it in the last year, when it was destabilizing the OS.

Many Mac users realize that as more people use the OS, it is only a matter of time before REAL virii are written. Until then, many of us (or at least I) use common-sense approaches to avoiding viruses. I mean, c'mon, who's dumb enough nowadays to open unsolicited spam with attached files?

The bigger problem currently is Macs bring used to pass along Windows virii, I think the reason that NAV exists in the first place.
alancats
join:2000-09-20
New York, NY

alancats to FFH5

Member

to FFH5

Actually....

If Mac users show any "smugness" at the announcement of Windows viruses, I'd attribute it less to maliciousness and more to the fact that they know all too well from personal experience how frustrating it is dealing with Windows' infinite flaws and virus/malware issues. I own both a Mac and Windows laptop, and my Windows machine still has malware on it that cannot be cleaned out, no matter what antivirus programs I install on it nor how much time I fiddle with it. It's infected for good, although it still works, somewhat, I rarely use it. Mac OS X really is a godsend to people who simply want to spend more time using their computers and less time protecting/maintaining them.

neuronbob
Cavs NBA Champs 2016
join:2000-03-30
Bedford, OH

neuronbob

Member

Minor clarification

To clarify: I have been using OS X since the beta over five years ago.
roady1
join:2003-11-13
Cleveland, OH

roady1 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5

Re: 'Too Smug' is a good description

And the Mac user will say, "At least I didn't get stroked by the other 438 that you guys have this year...."

No one's track record is flawless....but if you've got to go with the best option, it's gonna be a 'nix-based platform no question.

Drop $500 on a Mini and see what all those Mac people are talking about.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

It's Not Arrogance If You Can Do It!

Ok so there is yet another call that Mac users are too smug when it comes to security. Have any of these people proved that there was some awful exploit that turned millions of Macs into zombie machines? Is Apple releasing patch after patch after patch to fix hole after hole after hole?

It doesn't matter how many or how few Mac users there are, people are always looking for security holes in any platform and if one is to be found it will be found. What's even more impressive is that only a few security holes have been found even with the source code for Darwin being freely available. I am sure that people are looking for security holes simply because they think Mac users are too smug about security and want to take advantage of any chance to knock them down a peg or three.

Shamayim
Premium Member
join:2002-09-23

Shamayim

Premium Member

"The day will come..."

This Macintosh owner has been hearing that song of resentment since the '90's. Too smug? No, just recognition of a very secure system that simply has proved itself over and over again.

Our OS has earned its reputation for security. Can yours say the same?

Reminder: We are all MAC users. The computer Apple makes is a Mac.

gattaca
Premium Member
join:2003-05-28
USA

gattaca

Premium Member

It's NOT MAC!

I find it humorous that some peoples' cause for anger at Mac users (NOT MAC!) is that they often crow about how they are "immune" to viruses. Ever think that poster might even be a Windows user simply trying to cause an argument?

geekamongus
MVM
join:2004-07-27
Asheville, NC

geekamongus to FFH5

MVM

to FFH5

Re: 'Too Smug' is a good description

said by FFH5:

Well, the day will come when the MAC community is ravaged by an exploit or two and I guess then all the Windows users will get to say "I told you so".
See that's the difference now, isn't it? "An exploit or two" vs. "hundreds upon hundreds of exploits".

It really does boil down to a matter of fighting with your computer vs. using it. Put yourself in the seat of a Mac user - wouldn't you be laughing at all the silly Windows people spending valuable time, money, and effort on detection, disinfection, prevention, and repair?

I do not own a Mac, but I wish I did, and the next computer I buy will be one.

Thats Stupid
@kersey.louisville.ed

Thats Stupid to alancats

Anon

to alancats

Re: Actually....

Why on earth would you not reinstall windows and once again have a clean windows computer if you know it is infected with some nasties? That's just being lazy. Computers need maintenence just like any other complicated piece of machinery.

CPM
Broadband, DSL, cable
join:2001-08-24
Denver, CO

2 edits

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Apple and Mac History 101

1981 Apple Viruses 1, 2, and 3 are some of the first viruses “in the wild,” or in the public domain. Found on the Apple II operating system, the viruses spread through Texas A&M via pirated computer games.

1988

One of the most common viruses, Jerusalem, is unleashed. Activated every Friday the 13th, the virus affects both .exe and .com files and deletes any programs run on that day.
MacMag and the Scores virus cause the first major Macintosh outbreaks.

TechieZero
Tools Are Using Me
Premium Member
join:2002-01-25
Lithia, FL

TechieZero

Premium Member

No one cares

Someone has to care about the Mac to write a virus for it.

Since Windows has a larger share, writing a virus for it has the biggest effect. Plus it is way easier to get your hands on a windows PC and information with its larger base.
priller
join:2000-10-20
Gainesville, VA

1 edit

priller

Member

Disagree. Think of the fame of being the first one to write a virus for OSX!

It's not that no one cares, it's that nobody has been smart enough to figure it out. That's not to say it's impossible.
Shark_615
join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON

Shark_615 to alancats

Member

to alancats

Re: Actually....

What I don't understand about users is if THEY get infected with a virus or THEY get infected by spyware because THEY downloaded malicious files/email or THEY went to a site they shouldn't it is somehow Microsoft's fault?

All virii and malware is very very easily avoided. My personal box is stable and virii/malware free and to a degree most of the computers I look after are extremely stable and rarely if ever infected because of the preventative measures and education I put in place.

At the end of the day if you have a user that has a single digit password and clicks yes to everything it doesn't matter what platform they are on its going to get hosed. We have people here that crash Mac OSX/9 on a hourly basis because of their incompetence.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to neuronbob

Member

to neuronbob

Re: This Mac user is not smug

quote:
Many Mac users realize that as more people use the OS, it is only a matter of time before REAL virii are written.
Nice fallacy. Really, it is, but it's still a fallacy. The most popular web server software is Apache, yet IIS gets hacked the most.

The most used E-mail software is Notes (I think it's 51/49 or somethig like that) yet Ecchange is the most hacked.

It really has nothing to do with popularity at this point - writing Viruses for Windows is as easy as point and click. It's that easy. They have to figure how to get a Mac infected, trick the user to run the app _AND_ give their password to the installer.

Sure, the Mac is not immune, but it's like wearing a bulletproof vest. Your arms, legs, and head are still vulnerable, but the majority of your body is covered.

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese to geekamongus

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to geekamongus

Re: 'Too Smug' is a good description

said by geekamongus:

said by FFH5:

Well, the day will come when the MAC community is ravaged by an exploit or two and I guess then all the Windows users will get to say "I told you so".
See that's the difference now, isn't it? "An exploit or two" vs. "hundreds upon hundreds of exploits".

It really does boil down to a matter of fighting with your computer vs. using it. Put yourself in the seat of a Mac user - wouldn't you be laughing at all the silly Windows people spending valuable time, money, and effort on detection, disinfection, prevention, and repair?

I do not own a Mac, but I wish I did, and the next computer I buy will be one.
Funny, I never get spyware, viruses, or any of that, my Windows machine works just fine day in and day out. I guess if you don't know how to properly maintain a Windows machine that's the price you pay.

geekamongus
MVM
join:2004-07-27
Asheville, NC

geekamongus

MVM

You missed my point, and you said it yourself: "I guess if you don't know how to properly maintain a Windows machine that's the price you pay."

You don't have to know how to properly maintain a Mac, which is why I recommend it to all non-techies, who happen to be the majority of computer users. Macs just work. Every tried one?

Sure, you and I know how to properly maintain a Windows box (I never get spyware or viruses either, thanks), but it takes effort and time, which the average user doesn't necessarily want to spend.
Turbulent
join:2004-09-23
Lubbock, TX

Turbulent to CPM

Member

to CPM

Re: Apple and Mac History 101

I find it kind of humiliating that you had to go back 20 years to find a virus for a mac....

I could go back a month or two to find a virus for a pc...

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

nixen to amungus

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to amungus

Re: there may not be cheese on the moon

said by amungus:

I'm starting to think OSX might be on to something... instead of all these various linux flavors and talk about making a better, more user friendly desktop, Jobs went ahead and already did that folks...
A nice 'nix setup that is fairly standardized, easy to use, and just plain works like it should... what a novel idea.
Never had to support users of MacMail, I take it...

-tom

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese to geekamongus

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to geekamongus

Re: 'Too Smug' is a good description

Haven't tried one, most likely will never try one. Can't play my games on a Mac.

garagerock
Premium Member
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

garagerock to geekamongus

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to geekamongus
great...but what about business apps? ever support a pool of users who demand Windows and Windows based apps? ain't happening in our lifetimes.

Ctrl Alt Del
Premium Member
join:2002-02-18

1 edit

Ctrl Alt Del

Premium Member

There are a few viruses for Mac OS X

I actually did some research and did found a few viruses that exist for OS X. Anyone who says that no viruses exist for the Mac are wrong. There does exist at least two viruses for the Mac that I know of (as well as Symantec, McAfee, Sophos, Trend Micro, Kaspersky, etc). Both of them are actually trojan's, as both require user interaction, but I don't want to spoil the fun with details yet.

There are two "popular" ones that show up a lot:

1: Opener [McAfee, Kaspersky, Sophos, Trend Micro], Renepo [Symantec]
»securityresponse.symante ··· o.b.html
And I'm sure there are write ups about this virus from the others, but Symantec's write up is rather well documented.

Let's look at what this baby does:
When the virus is executed, it does the following:

1. Deletes some UNIX commands and modifies preferences for other additional commands.

2. Launches a keystroke-mapping application (if installed) called Krec, to record the keyboard entry of passwords.

3. Modifies the hostconfig file, allowing Write access to all users and SSH access from the intruder's computer.

4. Gathers hash files (mathematical strings used to represent passwords and other sensitive data) to scan for passwords for every user, compares these hash files to a dictionary file to try to generate the appropriate passwords.

5. Turns on file sharing and remote login, then puts passwords and other sensitive data into an invisible folder named .info on each user's Public folder.

6. When active, the Activity Monitor shows a process called "john" eating almost an entire processor.

7. Requires one or more of the following to install this script and to copy itself to the startup items folder:
* Admin or physical access (boot from a CD or firewire/usb, ignore permissions on the internal drive).
* Write access to either /Library/StartupItems /System/Library/StartupItems.
* Write access to any existing StartupItem (which is replaced with this script).
* Write access to the rc, crontab, or periodic files.

8. Creates the startup item /System/Library/StartupItems named "opener."

9. Runs "john" (we assume as in "the Ripper").

10. Turns on some services and turns off others (including firewall services).

11. Runs as root, as no "sudo" commands are needed.

12. Copies itself to any mounted startup volume, before it kills utmp. When the virus connects, it is invisible to the user.

Note: The utmp file allows one to discover information about who is currently using the system. There may be more users currently using the system, because not all programs use utmp logging.

13. After disabling the Macintosh OS firewall, it changes the File Server preferences to make sure the Mac File Server does not log any Mac File Sharing.

14. Prevents Software update from auto-updating.

15. Looks for LittleSnitch software (a shareware Firewall program with application control) and tries to terminate the process, when LittleSnitch attempts to perform network access.

16. Searches throughout the computer for the following:
* Serial numbers of installed applications.
* Various preference files of installed applications.
* Various user-specific preferences, including Classic files.

17. Modifies the LimeWire settings, deletes log files, and creates an admin level user named:

"LDAP-daemon"

so the machine can then be accessed in the future by a hacker who knows about this script. This user name will appear in the NetInfo Manager.

18. Installs a daily script to look for more passwords on the system that runs at 3 A.M.

19. Installs and runs two programs named:
* "John the Ripper"
* "dsniff"

which will gather data and attempt to isolate passwords contained within them, as well as any other 10.2 and 10.3 hashes.

20. Gathers data and attempts to isolate passwords contained within them, as well as any other 10.2 and 10.3 hashes.

21. Reviews the logs for any passwords found.
Holy shit, sounds like Mac users need to get some Anti Virus software! However, don't get excited yet, there's a catch. The virus will not function unless you type in an Administrator password. If you stumble upon this virus and double click on it, it will not do anything unless you manually type in your password. If you stumble upon a website that tries to launch this virus, you are forced to download it, then double click on it. Unlike Windows, you can not accidentally get infected just by surfing to some random website. Mac OS X is inherently more secure than Windows by default. It doesn't self propagate, can't automatically execute, and requires user action. Doesn't sound too much of a threat anymore.

2: The second virus is more of a concept, as it wasn't really in the wild, and nowhere near as dangerous as the first. This Trojan horse, MP3Concept (MP3Virus.Gen), exploits a weakness in Mac OS X where applications can appear to be other types of files.

Here's what this one apparently does:
The Trojan horse’s code is encapsulated in the ID3 tag of an MP3 (digital music) file. This code is in reality a hidden application that can run on any Macintosh computer running Mac OS X.

Mac OS X displays the icon of the MP3 file, with an .mp3 extension, rather than showing the file as an application, leading users to believe that they can double-click the file to listen to it. But double clicking the file launches the hidden code, which can damage or delete files on computers running Mac OS X, then iTunes to play the music contained in the file, to make users think that it is really an MP3 file . While the first versions of this Trojan horse that Intego has isolated are benign, this technique opens the door to more serious risks.

This Trojan horse has the potential to do any of the following:

* Delete all of a user’s personal files
* Send an e-mail message containing a copy of itself to other users
* Infect other MP3, JPEG, GIF or QuickTime files

Due to the use of this technique, users can no longer safely double-click MP3 files in Mac OS X. This same technique could be used with JPEG and GIF files, though no such cases of infected graphic files have yet been seen.
Again, this one has a catch too. Only one vendor (Intego) said anything about this one (as far as I can tell), and this is about all the information I can gather on this one. Intego no longer has the information page on this virus (I wonder why, proof of a real Mac virus would only help them sell their Anti Virus software...). However, the worst this virus can do is destroy the local user account. Because the virus is launched by the user who ran it, the worst it can do is destroy that user's home directory, it can't touch anything else. You don't even have to reinstall the OS, just make a new account (now that's convenient).

So, the Mac does have a few malicious viruses that exist, however, neither of the two I know about are worth worrying about. The OS is simply designed to be more secure by default, and the worst that happens is, you trash your user account. Big deal. Get hit with a nasty Windows virus, and you have to reinstall (again).

Note: My main machine is a Dell Inspiron 8600 (which I love) running Windows XP Pro SP2, my secondary machine is a Dell Dimension 4500S running Windows XP Pro SP2, Knoppix, and Ubuntu. I own one Mac, which is a 233 MHz G3 iMac that I just use to play with because it's too damn slow to use for anything else. I am not a Mac zealot, nor a Windows zealot. I hate them all equally.
Ctrl Alt Del

1 edit

Ctrl Alt Del to Shark_615

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to Shark_615

Re: Actually....

said by Shark_615:

What I don't understand about users is if THEY get infected with a virus or THEY get infected by spyware because THEY downloaded malicious files/email or THEY went to a site they shouldn't it is somehow Microsoft's fault?

All virii and malware is very very easily avoided. My personal box is stable and virii/malware free and to a degree most of the computers I look after are extremely stable and rarely if ever infected because of the preventative measures and education I put in place.

At the end of the day if you have a user that has a single digit password and clicks yes to everything it doesn't matter what platform they are on its going to get hosed. We have people here that crash Mac OSX/9 on a hourly basis because of their incompetence.
I can think of one example that easily refutes this. I remember the advertiser Double Click (I believe it was them) once getting hacked and the hacker put nasty malware in place of the normal Flash/GIF ads. Now, any website that hosted Double Click's advertisements (CNN, MSN, ABC, and a load of others) was infected. Not only did the hacker put malware in place of the ad, but they used an unpatched (at the time) vulnerability in IE so the malware would get installed silently. There was nothing to click on, nor any box to hit Yes to. You visit the site with IE at default settings and get infected.

Another is mistyping URLs. Have you seen what happens if you misspell Google? I literally saw one person type in some variation of Google (Gogle, googgle, googoe, etc) and suddenly she has Porn Casino on her desktop.

All virii and malware is not very easily avoided. In this case, if you use IE at default settings, you could have gotten infected. But you can prevent a lot of it from getting on your system through Anti Virus software, different web browsers, better security settings, etc.

barnett25
join:2004-01-26
Huntington, WV

barnett25 to Cheese

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Re: 'Too Smug' is a good description

But most people go to BestBuy and pay $79 to have them remove the spyware. Those people would be much better of on Macs. And I heard somewhere that a very large number of hackers run OSX, so it's not just the clueless n00bs.

Geddy
join:2004-12-02
Westerly, RI

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Re: Actually....

This is why I dont use IE. FF with adblock and noscript keeps all that crap away.

CPM
Broadband, DSL, cable
join:2001-08-24
Denver, CO

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Re: Apple and Mac History 101

No, this is state that even MAC OS X day will come. It is a matter of time. As more people use the platform. Virus writers will write a virus for the MAC OX X and apple will not know how do deal with it.
jdb8167
join:2001-07-08
Maynard, MA

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Member

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Re: There are a few viruses for Mac OS X

While both of those are malware, neither is a virus. Opener is a trojan that needs an administrators password to install. So if you download random things from usenet or P2P and then install them and then type in your password you may be in trouble. The MP3 concept is a trojan with a clever disguise. It is not in the wild. There are probably several trojans for OS X in the wild. For example, there was a case of someone downloading what they thought was Office for OS X but it turned out to be a small applescript that deleted the users home account.

Neither of these are particularly dangerous even for ignorant users. You won't find them spreading by themselves.
Shark_615
join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON

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The scary thing is I have and I am sure many other people have seen and read of people that will type in a password and hit yes to get the prompt off their screen. Or better yet they will click a pop up and fill out a complete form because they think there is a prize at the end. It's amazing the amount of information people give out for a possible treat. Social engineering is just as easy on a Mac as it is on a PC.

The big reason why so many Windows machines are hosed is because anyone with no training can go buy a fully equipped Dell for $300. At least for an Apple there is a certain degree of education in the majority of the community and the price point is out of the range of most newbies and non computer enthusiast.

Pre Mac Mini, if you wanted a basic e-mail, internet, music and maybe Word Proc system where did you go? Gateway or Dell.
taar
join:2000-11-21

taar to TechieZero

Member

to TechieZero

Re: No one cares

said by TechieZero:

Someone has to care about the Mac to write a virus for it.

Since Windows has a larger share, writing a virus for it has the biggest effect. Plus it is way easier to get your hands on a windows PC and information with its larger base.
I think i agree with you. I run windows machines and have never used a Mac. I dont have problems with viruses because i keep my machines safe and all my windows machines are extremely stable. Absolutely no BSOD. Therefore, i personally have no reason to go seek out a Mac. Hardly anyone i know has a Mac. To me, its just an overpriced alternative to a windows machine that only commands a very small percentage of the market. Mac users are a special class though. They will defend their machines to death. Its almost like they all own apple shares:D
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