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Wonder how many used then?So if the doc is so bad??? How is that several vendors have been able to use it? What they want a M$ programer that can help the build their own software? |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA |
Ahrenl
Member
2006-Jul-11 3:58 pm
They want a piece of M$'s cash cow. They don't want proper documentation, they just had to make a ridiculous demand that M$ would never comply with so they can start levying fees. |
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blow it out your
Anon
2006-Jul-11 4:24 pm
Please attempt to read (and understand) the linked story before bloviating uninformed rubbish. You can still freely agree with Microsoft, but at least know the facts of the case before tapping out your ... cough, hack, gag ... opinion.
It's no wonder this country is going into the toilet; can you even name the first year this affair began without GOING BACK and reading the article FIRST? I'd wager not. |
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 N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs |
to Ahrenl
said by Ahrenl:They want a piece of M$'s cash cow. They don't want proper documentation, they just had to make a ridiculous demand that M$ would never comply with so they can start levying fees. The European Union and Montgomery County, MD. Two great extortionists who work great apart! |
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2 edits |
to blow it out your
Sure I can, I read about it almost weekly in zdent... sometimes you just want to hear other pepole opinions and not necesarly post yours... and by the way what is yours,,, if you have read anything yet!!! or should we give you more time? |
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BLOWmeBILLgates
Anon
2006-Jul-11 4:41 pm
MICROSUCKS = SCUM OF THE EARTHHopefully the EU will nail the criminals at MICROSUCKS to the wall but I doubt it. 2.5 BILLION Euro -- that's with a "B", per day fine is what MICROSUCKS deserves for their criminal activity. They've been convicted so there is no point in arguing, it's just a matter of how little they'll pay for their crimes. |
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 FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ |
to chemaupr
Re: Wonder how many used then?The continual rulings, some of which have been successfully appealed by MS to EU courts seems to be nothing but an attempt to penalize a successful company. And interpreting compliance to mean helping your competitors is pretty ridiculous IMHO. All the things MS supposedly did to exploit their desktop dominance have been ended. The steps being ordered now are nothing but attempts to drive MS out of business. |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 4:47 pm
said by FFH5:The steps being ordered now are nothing but attempts to drive MS out of business. Maybe its some sort of "coverture" from the EU to get Microsoft to buy them out  |
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to FFH5
I agree... is so silly. Look at their request for a XP version with out the Media Player... they comply and the market response, we are not interested in that product.
This does nothing to benefit the consumers. They will end up paying the price monetary and probably may not receive the best product after all. |
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amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America
2 edits |
amungus
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 4:51 pm
Non ...comPliancesorry, had to point that out first; the subheading says noncomLiance anyway, $2.5 million a day is absurd by any measure! while I don't really agree that trade secrets should involve simple things like how to talk to the freaking thing (Windows...) and interoperate, the solution is obviously not to impose further fines 'per day' like this... "Microsoft's documentation was written ``primarily to maximize volume while minimizing useful information,'' it said." that's the best quote right there... I might actually believe that statement. |
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to FFH5
Re: Wonder how many used then?Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with.
They are a monopoly, they keep everything so close to the vest that programming for their platform often requires you to utilize un-documented or extremely poorly documented function calls with no idea whether they will function correctly when deployed widespread.
It's all just a conspiracy theory to undermine american influence, blah blah blah.
In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please... |
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Oh goddie.Aw fine them anyway, they deserve it. They'll never make up for all their past transgressions. Fine fine fine fine fine fine fine.  |
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caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK |
caco
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 5:42 pm
They will never see a dime."The EU plans to fine the company up to 2 million euros ($2.55 million) a day -- backdated to Dec. 15 -- for not obeying an antitrust order from March 2004. The total financial penalty will be announced by EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes."
208 days x $2.55 = You can go to hell!
Sorry but this looks heavy handed. |
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Desdinova
Premium Member
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD |
to GigahertZ420
Re: Wonder how many used then?"Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with."
So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim.
If MS were to lose significant amounts of revenue because of their practices, then I suspect they'd change them. The fact that they're not, seems to suggest that most folks don't have a problem with them.
Am I a MS apologist? Not at all. I use them by default; for the work I do, Windows-based software and hardware is less expensive and more diversified than what's available on other platforms. I was a die-hard Amiga freak who finally gave up the ghost when I could no longer perform certain tasks that were easily available on a Windows-based platform. I certainly did NOT sue MS and try to force them to engineer their gear to integrate with my Amiga stuff. Using this same logic, I don't see the validity of the EU's claims. If so many countries have problems with MS, let 'em dump the system and go with something else.
"In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please..."
I don't feel that American products should be given a free pass, any more than many foreign companies are given a free pass here in the states. Look at the car industry for example, and all the modifications that are necessary or a foreign car to be U.S. compliant.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Mexican switchblades, French absinthe and Cuban cigars, but guess what? Because I live in the United States... |
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I just have to respond...Ya know, Microsoft might be better off not selling anything in the EU until the EU gets its' own act together. No sales, no support, nothing. Offer to buy back the existing (legitimate) software and then cut them off. Probably cheaper in the long run, and heck, it might even get the EU's heads out of their lower orifices.
The EU is faced with many of the same problems the USA is, compounded by the rampant nationalism that exists in every member of that "august" organization, and compounded again by the protectionism that is built into every individual members' economic system. To me, this smacks of distraction more than a legitimate grievance.
And, just for the record, I do not particularly like Microsoft's tactics either. I simply think the EU's reaction is way out of proportion to the actual "problem". |
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 TitusMr Gradenko
join:2004-06-26 |
to Desdinova
Re: Wonder how many used then?said by Desdinova:"Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with." So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim. Perhaps he's simply a coder -- not a project manager or head of operations -- giving his opinion on the documentation from personal experience. Telling him not to work with it is koolaid-speak for 'get F'd; I don't like your opinion, love it or leave it'. Why not find a school yard and beat up a kid instead: that would have to feel better than carrying around what amounts to self-loathing inspired insipience. Tolerance for differing viewpoints: look into it  |
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| Titus |
to chemaupr
said by chemaupr:Sure I can, I read about it almost weekly in zdent... sometimes you just want to hear other pepole opinions and not necesarly post yours... and by the way what is yours,,, if you have read anything yet!!! or should we give you more time? And this is after the edit.  |
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| Titus |
to FFH5
I'll tell you one thing that's a given and offer another that's an opinion: any company as rich as microsoft didn't get there playing by the rules, and that's a fact. Furthermore, imagine -- if you're able -- what computing would be today if true competition had existed for the past fifteen years.
As for this ruling, it's steep and borders on egregious in amount, but I don't think the EU would levy such fines if the conditions of the original ruling were met within the agreed upon time frame. Just my opinion. |
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lalalalalala to oldmike
Anon
2006-Jul-11 6:19 pm
to oldmike
Re: I just have to respond...At least the EU is trying to do something about Microsoft monopoly abuses. We should thank them. They certainly seem to have more fangs than our poor DOJ... |
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Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX |
Talis
Member
2006-Jul-11 6:29 pm
A bit muchI've been a Windows developer for years, and while Microsoft's documentation is never what you would call complete, it certainly isn't "fundamentally flawed in it's conception" nor has using their documentation ever been a "time-consuming and ultimately fruitless task." The fact that several vendors have actually used the documentation successfully should bear some weight as well.
Obviously there is some other agenda in play here. |
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ |
FFH5 to Titus
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 6:36 pm
to Titus
Re: Wonder how many used then?said by Titus:Furthermore, imagine -- if you're able -- what computing would be today if true competition had existed for the past fifteen years. I'm not so sure it would be better. While competition does wonders for lower prices and innovation, it does a really poor job of fostering workable standards. The standards groups do a slow poor job of coming up with standards that allow systems to interact and talk to each other. Having a dominant player in a technology area(1st IBM, and then MS) is what fosters the rapid widespread expansion of a technology into all walks of life. So I would say that there are pluses and minuses to not having a dominant player. |
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zerog
join:2002-02-10
Carrollton, TX |
zerog
Member
2006-Jul-11 6:38 pm
F.O.S.S.I predict that FOSS acronym will be hijacked and replaced with the more ominous one: Forced Open Source Software!
Microsoft has an increasingly outdated business model with their version of proprietary.
The bigger problem is outdated business models, and the way corporations bleed and rape cultures and lands, so that they can spend exorbitant amounts of cash protecting the dying models.
Hey guys = Change is inevitable?
A big US company is making a TON of cash and using heavy-handed and/or surreptious tactics to do it. EU just wants a slice. Big deal? |
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to Desdinova
Re: Wonder how many used then?said by Desdinova:"Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with." So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim. If MS were to lose significant amounts of revenue because of their practices, then I suspect they'd change them. The fact that they're not, seems to suggest that most folks don't have a problem with them. Am I a MS apologist? Not at all. I use them by default; for the work I do, Windows-based software and hardware is less expensive and more diversified than what's available on other platforms. I was a die-hard Amiga freak who finally gave up the ghost when I could no longer perform certain tasks that were easily available on a Windows-based platform. I certainly did NOT sue MS and try to force them to engineer their gear to integrate with my Amiga stuff. Using this same logic, I don't see the validity of the EU's claims. If so many countries have problems with MS, let 'em dump the system and go with something else. "In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please..." I don't feel that American products should be given a free pass, any more than many foreign companies are given a free pass here in the states. Look at the car industry for example, and all the modifications that are necessary or a foreign car to be U.S. compliant. Personally, I'm a big fan of Mexican switchblades, French absinthe and Cuban cigars, but guess what? Because I live in the United States... If you have worked with software vendors before and especially Microsoft, they have a tendency to basically tie you to the kitchen sink. I see this EVERY SINGLE DAY. When a business buys a product or becomes a partner they essentially are on the hook. Every day I talk to someone that says, "We can't run that on our network, were a Cisco shop." or ... were a Novell shop, etc. Change is not easy and vendors, especially microsoft do a very good job of "anchoring" themselves into your organization or business. Couple that with the fact that your trying to code Widget A on a Unix system to talk to Widget B on a Windows box and the fact that you were given a steaming pile of crap for documentation culminates in frustration, slipping schedules and the possiblity of a failed project. The fines EU is looking to impose did not just appear out of the blue, they have been told for almost 2 years that they have to make their product more interoperable. Or at the very least provide adequite documentation on how to do some low level operations. That means I should be able as a software company to integrate whatever i'm doing (firewall, data backup, web service aggreation) into microsofts product on a technical level equavilent to what they do with their server software. I should not have to do some ugly, complex hooking or interprocess nightmare to implement a basic overloading of a microsoft provided OS function. |
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 X_DigitBinary Enhanced
Premium Member
join:2003-06-12
Mansfield, TX |
to Titus
Poster above this: "blow it out your (Unregistered) chvlva.adelphia.net"
I can wager that the chvlva, in the address part, stands for Charlottesville, VA. And, since you're from there, AND have Adelphia HSI for your provider, I bet I could wage who made that post!
I love idiots who post anon, when they have registered accounts here, because they purposely let their pelican beak override their hummingbird ass... and don't want to associate their thwarted posts w/ their registered account! |
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to zerog
Re: F.O.S.S.If this is all about breaking a monopoly then whats with the pussyfooting they have done with apples monopoly on the music player market. This is all about M.S. being an easy target because there is the built in hate. Apple is just as heavy-handed and monopolistic when it comes to DRM and there IPOD player yet they get away with it. Although this would never happen MS should really just close up shop in the EU and let all these companies and govs deal with the fallout from the people. |
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 tbsteph
join:2002-01-31
Maineville, OH |
to GigahertZ420
Re: Wonder how many used then?"The fines EU is looking to impose did not just appear out of the blue, they have been told for almost 2 years that they have to make their product more interoperable. Or at the very least provide adequite documentation on how to do some low level operations.
That means I should be able as a software company to integrate whatever i'm doing (firewall, data backup, web service aggreation) into microsofts product on a technical level equavilent to what they do with their server software. I should not have to do some ugly, complex hooking or interprocess nightmare to implement a basic overloading of a microsoft provided OS function"
First, the fines were/are determined by a governmental body whose only purpose is to extort monies from a successful US corporation. If that's OK with you, where does it stop since the EU is in fact the judge and jury for any company they see fit to pillage.
Second, what kind of dumb think is this "I should not have to do.....". Sounds like you want to put a Chevy part on a Ford or you need a bit more technical know-how. You may want to look at the history of your industry and compare today to when Big Blue was in the cats bird seat. Trust me, you would not find an easy way to connect their gear/software with anything else. |
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 trparkyCYA! I'm gone!
Premium Member
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH |
trparky
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 8:26 pm
My idea is.....My idea is that if the European people have such an issue with Microsoft and that they want to fine Microsoft as much as they want to, then they should just pull out.
Microsoft should just say..."You know, fine. If you don't like us that badly, we'll just pull out. Lets see you get by without Windows. Bet that the IT industry in Europe will crash if that happens."
Oh yeah, I know, they can turn to Linux, but not suddenly. There would have to be a huge transition period in which companies and people would have to transition to Linux. It wouldn't be easy at all, transitioning an entire country and its people away from software that they are used to using would be a nightmare to say the least. |
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 RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT ·XMission
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RayW
Premium Member
2006-Jul-11 8:41 pm
said by trparky:Microsoft should just say..."You know, fine. If you don't like us that badly, we'll just pull out. Lets see you get by without Windows. Bet that the IT industry in Europe will crash if that happens." Two points on that, one - No more bribes to pay to prevent them from going to Open Source. two - Wonder how often a Microsoft 'patch' will break something on the web that Open Source uses (probably not the same level of an issue as it was back in the early 90's with the 'Kill Netscape' program they had going)? |
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to X_Digit
And, once again
We see the brainless mindset that somehow anyone who posts anonymously is to be rideculed and ignored as a matter of course because they chose not to register for whatever reason.
It sometimes makes me ponder on who the real idiots are.
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| Fatal Vector |
to caco
Re: They will never see a dime."208 days x $2.55 = You can go to hell!"
Well, bottom line is that Microsoft lost and was ordered to comply by a legitimate governmental entity. They chose to take their usual path and not comply by dragging their feet at every turn.
They had to know that the EU would smack them upside the head sooner or later. They just hoped the endless litigation and foot dragging would make them give up eventually.
I have zero sympathy for Microsoft, period. They chose their course of action and it has, apparently failed. Time to pay the piper.
208 X 2.55 = 530.4 million. This isn't even a nick off Microsofts cash reserves, since they are awash in CASH and rake in 1 BILLION a month.
No. No sympathy at all. I'm glad to see them finally having their feet held to the fire. They WILL have to comply, eventually, because they want to do business in the EU and they wouldn't DARE just say screw you and pull out. The resulting worldwide tornado would be their downfall. |
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