Comcast Nominated for Having Worst ToS

If the TOS is not to your liking, don't get the service!

Don't give me this "Only Provider" BS.
Either you accept it or not - don't get it then bitch!

I agreed and got the service!

While I may not approve of the whole Sandvine horseshit,
if it was such a POS I would cancel.

Sandvine on BT vs 16mbps... Hmmm.
I'm still here, aint I?

*SO FAR*, my service has been great!
That's 4 years and counting... started at 1500kbps x 256kbps and now at 16000kbps x 2000kbps.

Sure beats the hell out of what AT&T(SBC) has ever tried to offer me!

YMMV

Yeah, but it's really the only viable provider for many people.

*Viable* is subjective...

Ever hear of Sat?
Got Dialup?
Sprint/Verizon data plans?

"Viable" in my case is satellite or 25K dialup.

Exactly!

*IF* Comcast and their TOS was SO bad, I would get myself a wireless card for VZ or Sprint.
If there was no coberage for VZ or Sprint, I would likely opt for dialup.

Bitching about the TOS doesn't affect anything... it's just bitching!

Actually, you're wrong. Bitching causes BAD PRESS, which is exactly what a monopoly cannot afford. Bitching alerts the public to how the megacorps are ripping people off. Bitching is what finally gets the politicians to pass laws to reign in their monopolistic ways.

Bitching is always the best solution.

No, Lobbying(payola) gets Politicians to change laws.
Bitching is just that - bitching.

But lobbying dosent keep politicians elected. Sooner or later, pols have to listen to their constituancy...especially if theres enough people bitching about it!

doesnt sound like you ever had to use/depend on sat or dialup
sat is more frustrating than dial-up = higher latency's about 7x more, 1500ms round trip to 200ms dial up
then there's dial-ups horrible ungodly slow speed ( todays web pages are huge for dialup ) and necessity for a phone line.
as for the data plans that is a viable service option but dont know much about it

Yes I have! I had dialup via Bay Area Internet Solutions.
I wanted faster.
I looked at Comcast and READ the TOS/AUP - acceptable!
I agreed!
Here we are today 4 years later and I have even opted to pay the $10.00 Extra for more speed!

Like I posted in the original post: "... don't get it then bitch!"

"Only Option" is bullshit!
If y'all really want connectivity... you can get connected!
Dialup is $9.99
Want faster?
Might cost a bit more than $9.99, but Sat will work!
Latency or FAP on Sat? Sure!
What do you expect? The damn thing is 20,000 miles away!
That's a hell of a first hop!

*BUT* it is faster than dialup!

If Comcast is the only service that has low latency, and fast speed, then YOU must decide if the TOS is acceptable or not.
If not, don't get it! DUH!
If yes, Cool!

While you do have a valid point, you are overexagerating the availability and feasability of the otehr options.

Sat is only an option if thats the only thing you can get.

While dial-up is available everywhere, even when it was in its heyday, some locations still had to dial long distance to the nearest ISP. Now that most of the smaller dial up firms have gone away, there arent as many local numbers as there used to be. I used to be able to find 20 numbers local, last time I looked a few years ago, there were only 3.

So, even if it was free, some people would still get long distance charges. So not really a feasable option.

Just in case you are wondering, I have Comcast, the highest tier available in my area (6/768) and I am very pleased with it. Over the last 2 years, I've had less that 30 min of downtime. I have had some problems, but it was back when CC was upgrading so I kind of expected odd speeds and such. (My upload was 1.2m while my download was 800k). And everytime I go to the CC office or have to call them, I always get the friendliest people, so theres no customer service problems in this area.

Oh and I have a choice of 2 other providers as well. Att/Bellsouth DSL and Knology cable.

Twightlight-zone bandwidth limitations, and lying to the public of their hidden traffic-shaping policies....sure dadkins, you're getting a great deal.
utopia.net is the answer to get rid of these corporate monopolies.

>Sat
Overpriced

>Dial-up
Ancient

>Sprint/Verizon
Not available in all area's. At least not "3g" type speeds.

>TOS unacceptable but you still get it
Piss, snivel, and whine?

LOL, not much worse than Blu-Ray apparently.

»blogs.pcworld.com/staffb ··· 883.html

»www.tgdaily.com/content/ ··· 039/113/

Los Angeles (CA) - The first quarter of 2008 was a huge success for Blu-ray, as sales grew by 351 percent over the same period last year, reports trade publication Home Media Magazine.

You also have to remember that DVD had been around for ~7 years before it became the dominant format. I was the first in my family to get a DVD player, and it was 12/00 and a PS2.

And BD will probably have a slower uptake because you need an HD set or a BD is pointless. With DVD you didnt have to buy a $600-$1000 tv AND a $400 player, you just needed the $400 player.

Damn dadkins, u have a Comcast Fanboy Tatt or something on yer forehead? Come on, people ARE going to bitch, and they have every right to. And sorry, but Sat is HARDLY a viable option. Give it a rest and stop trolling, if people want a REAL alternative, tell them the truth and that they should order Comcast Workplace which has NO Sandvine.

Oh gosh -- cry me a river. People have a right to decide whether they want to purchase something or not. THAT is what people have a right to. I think we can see clear evidence here of how we've failed to raise our children right: That sickly sense of entitlement oozing from some messages here is something that in our generation would never have exhibited. Despicable.

Latency. Can't play games on SAT.

Dialup is not fast enough, plus VoIP wont work on Dialup, or SAT.

Sprint/Verizon? No...

Viable seems less and less subjective.

Well I can't say that Comcast is my only viable alternative anymore. As of last year, Verizon Fios became available.

Until then it was a Comcast monopoly.

Which means that the service Comcast is offering is the best of the options.

well we know Comcast's response now

No, you don't. Comcast is too polite to give you the truth, a baldly with a little pretense as I will.

And another thing... it is incredibly CRAVEN to assume that anyone who disagrees with your puerile antipathy towards Comcast is a Comcast person. Should I assume that you MUST work for DirecTV since you're saying bad things about Comcast?

Grow up.

Typical corporate defense. How about working to improve the product instead of defending sleazy service terms? You are evidently one of the lucky ones who (1) get decent service and (2) aren't being affected by their lackluster network performance in some much bigger markets.

The "if you don't like it, leave" parroting is very tired.

I'm not defending it!
I'm trying to get people to use a little common sense.

"if you don't like it, leave"
Same thing has been said about The United States of America for years... and?

The thing is, don't even get it to start with then you won't have to leave!
If you get it even though the TOS says something that you don't like and you start whining about it - well, that's not too bright!

You continue to indirectly defend this, which I guess is expected. You added nothing but more of the same.

Still... not defending anything except common sense.

You no likely, no getey. Simple enough?

I accepted their TOS & AUP.
I'm not complaining.
Service is fine.
I live in The S.F. Bay Area(not rinkydink area).

One last time:

If for any reason *ANY* service has something in the Terms Of Service that you don't like or disagree with, you shouldn't get the service, right?

Geez!

You have made the assumption that I am defending Comcast and/or their TOS.
You are quite wrong.

Don't like the price of gas at the corner gas station, go down the street a ways and get some other gas from a different station.

Don't like the TOS of Comcast, go get connectivity from another provider.

What's so hard to understand?
Guess common sense doesn't apply to internet connectivity.

Ok, cool!
Guess I should cancel Comcast, get dialup and then come here and bitch that it is too slow.
Would that be better?

I don't get something then bitch about it.
DUH!

True, if you have the option and you don't like to TOS then don't go for the service.

However, nowadays, many of the TOS agreements from the providers allow the provider to modify and update the TOS at anytime and for any reason. And, in many cases, the provider doesn't even have to notify you of the changes.

Add to that, the providers try to lock you into long-term agreements.

So, unless you're willing to "check-in" on the TOS on a regular basis, how do you really know if sometime down the road your "contract" doesn't materially affect you.

TOS used to be utilized simply to protect the provider from frivolous lawsuits based on normal operating issues. Now it seems the TOS a written in such a way to allow the provider to generate additional revenue streams while at the same time failing to provide the advertised service. One, being the ability for the provider to intercept your data for use in targeted marketing. Or, possibly, allowing the provider to throttle your connection under the guise of network management (while at the same time advertising "unlimited" use).

The other issue with the TOS from some/many of these providers is that the legalize is written in a way that the common consumer cannot actually understand they may be giving up some their rights. Should they hire a lawyer to interpret the TOS? Or, possibly the provider is hiding behind legal mumbo jumbo while promising the sun.

If you need internet connectivity for work, where do you go to avoid restrictive TOS? Buy a T1?
It's easy to say don't get the service. Though that is an overly simplified solution.

Yes! If you are going to use your connection for WORK, you should get some sort of business service.

Residential Services are not intended for buisness use(hence the Business class of services).

Look, to everyone:
If for any reason the ISDP you use(whichever one you use) has anything now, or changes it in the future to some unacceptable level, drop them!

PLEASE stop paying for a service with a TOS that is crap and bitching about it.
If it is so damn bad... why in God's name are you still paying for it? Geez Louise!

WTF people?

You and I both have Comcast, so we know what the service is really like. But you and I have had Comcast for years. If someone was signing up for their first broadband service, wouldn't the Subscriber Agreement and AUP give them pause?

Fortunately, for Comcast and most of their CableCo and TelCo cousins, people get the service before reading them.

In fact, I just moved to an apartment a few months ago and signed up with Comcast. So, as "Mr. New Customer," my service was already activated several days before I was presented with my first screen showing the Subscriber Agreement (which only referred to the AUP by name).

(Yes, I admit it, I was installing the software. I was using the automation to provision the modem.)

It's easy to see why your an EX mod.

Could say it is easy to see you are a moron. But that would be wrong.

Ok, I guess what you are saying is that people just need to suck it and take the slow speed if they hate Comcast's ToS. Sounds like you NEVER had to deal with satellite or dialup. If you had bad service with Comcast and could never get it resolved, then I don't think you would be singing about Comcast's service as much as you are now.

Try reading the whole thread:

»Re: No Likey?

I have had dialup.

That's me in bold, BTW. I'm feeling real lazy today ...
--

I believe some telco shill coined that phrase was years ago when Ameritech started redlining DSL deployment and AT&T failed miserably at upgrading their cable systems. As far as I know, DSL is still not available at my address. I haven't seen any Pew-Verse lawn fridges sprouting up so apparently it won't be any time soon either.

But thankfully, Comcast bought out AT&T Cable and fixed T's phucking train wreck of a cable system or I'd still be on T's 2k dialup.

However, the bottom line is that I subscribe to all of Comcast's services and they all perform flawlessly. I couldn't care less about the TOS since it doesn't effect me.

Have a nice day, you silly rabbit!

That is EXACTLY what I did.

Comcast took over from ATTBi and ran the service into the ground. They raised my HSI rate 30% with the "how dare you not have our crappy CATV fee", implemented the phantom caps and I walked. I didn't come back until Time Warner took over, service and speeds improved and prices went back down to near their pre-Comcast levels.

Unfortunately not everyone has competiting services available to them like I did.

And while Comcast is certainly free to name their terms, no matter how vague, lame, or how ever much they lie to customers (as when they denied traffic shaping), it doesn't change the fact that people are free to say their TOS is crap.

If Comcast doesn't like the bad press, the solution is very simple. Change the TOS to be a tiny bit customer-friendly (get rid of the vague terms like "abuse").

how many can even fully understand a TOS or EULA, ive tried reading both types of document and there is some plain english but the rest is that Legalese bullshit that only a lawyer can figure out.

Don't you know? "A squeaky wheel gets a greasing."

Don't you know, Lobbyists have the grease bucket?
The ISP can do any damn thing they wish!
It is up to you and I to decide to accept or deny the service.

NO ONE is holding a gun to y'alls heads and forcing you to get Comcast or any other ISP's service - are they?

That may worked before the 21 century, but now Internet is considered by many to be as important as Electricity and Water (including myself) My electric and water service have terms of service as well, but they all fit on half a page and doesn't have to detail things out like "if your water pressure isn't at 80 psi, it's part of a water traffic management system that will penalize everyone in your neighborhood if one of you is wasting water".

quote:

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Don't give me this "Only Provider" BS.
Either you accept it or not - don't get it then bitch!

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That's a great idea, maybe my water company should do the same thing. If you don't like the service, then don't get water. If you don't like the electric company charging late fees, then don't get electric service. Go with other providers in your area right?

quote:

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I agreed and got the service!

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As did everyone that has Comcast, AT&T, etc.

quote:

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While I may not approve of the whole Sandvine horseshit,
if it was such a POS I would cancel.

Sandvine on BT vs 16mbps... Hmmm.
I'm still here, aint I?

---

Do you even know if they are using Sandvine in your region of service? I would imagine that if you can BT at full upload speed, then the answer would be moot.

quote:

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*SO FAR*, my service has been great!
That's 4 years and counting... started at 1500kbps x 256kbps and now at 16000kbps x 2000kbps.

Sure beats the hell out of what AT&T(SBC) has ever tried to offer me!

YMMV

---

Be glad you have good service, a lot of people don't. I've have good service with Comcast as well, but I'm on a different tier of service that most here.

I think the best way to sum up your post would be better stated as "If you don't like the TOS and you have another choice of provider that can provide similar service then don't complain."

Otherwise the "don't complain about the TOS when you don't have a choice" is a bit of a oxymoron.

I don't see how one provider is a BS reason. It is a dang good one. Dial up or faster than dial up with a messed up TOS? Most will still go with the messed up TOS because if you remember how slow dial up is, you remember that you definitely do not want that. Most of the territories in the USA are in fact a monopoly and the rest are mainly duopolies. There are a few sections where it is actually more of a competitive market. If you happen to be in a competitive market then be thankful that you are one of the few blessed ones.

Give me a fiber optic service in my area or any other at all and chances are I will highly consider changing provider and leaving Comcast. I live in a monopolistic area like most and it sucks. Only thing worst than a monopoly is no broadband whatsoever in the area.

You are correct, up to a point.

Comcast, in return for user's accepting its terms of service, has an obligation to provide the users with proof positive that users are getting the service specifications that Comcast is selling.

Unfortunately, Comcast has yet to provide any third-party verifiable method for guaranteeing that they are providing a specific user with the user's contracted performance every second of every day, in return for the user's agreeing to the TOS.

You will counter that Comcast has no contract with its users, but that is a serious obfuscation of the fact that users pay for a given level of service and Comcast accepts payment for a given level of service that Comcast has no way to guarantee the level of service in a proof-positive method satisfactory to a third party.

Terms of service are OK, but there apparently is no counter responsibility on the part of Comcast to its customers. This is not merely a theoretical argument. In return for user's adherence to the TOS, that Comcast must reciprocate with a demonstrable guarantee that the user is being provided what is paid for is clearly missing.

The equation cuts both ways: customers adhere to the TOS, Comcast provides proof positive that the customer is being provided, 87600/7/52, a service level that Comcast has taken payment for.

Comcast cannot, or will not, do what is required on their part, so the TOS is null and void unless and until Comcast does what is required: a simple method for each customer to verify that their HSI service is at least what the customer pays for, and can be verified by a neutral third party.

Absent Comcast's ability to provide proof of service level, their TOS is nothing more than toilet paper blowing in the wind. A contract that is ignored on one side is null and void. Suck it up.

Q

Okay, Dadkins drunk on Saturday morning , you a lawyer on a Sunday night -- I don't think I can take anymore!!!

Comcast simply has an obligation to deliver the service. They don't have to prove it. Caveat Emptor.

Comcast has a two-part TOS -- the Subscriber Agreement and (Non-)Acceptable Use Policy. The former of which also has a clause that basically says that if some portion of the document is broken, it doesn't kill the others.

I don't like it, and fortunately full-blown battles seldom break out over the subscriber agreement. Comcast is more worried about bad press, not quibbling over a few months worth of one subscriber's service charges.

How about Xplornet/Telesat satellite internet in Canada.
All this with the big ad on their front page of "unleash the power of the online world, on your terms".

Xplornet provides the Service on a "reasonable efforts" basis and does not guarantee upload or download speeds.
From:: 3. THE SERVICE & SPEED:
»www.xplornet.com/legal.php?id=2
And from::::
22. DISCLAIMER AND LIMITATION OF LIABILITY:
THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICE IS WITH YOU.

TOS dont mean shit. Some people think it's like the law. LOL

TOS is hardly enforced IMO

Who is InfoWorld again? Are we suppose to care what every blogger on the net thinks about their ISP?

Who's this guy, "Farve4", and are we supposed to care?

It's a topic of conversation. Attacking the messenger only distracts from the issue.

= CYA. Rhymes with POS.

The customer is never right. However, complain all you want to... the squeaky wheel may get some grease if enough people do it, and their PR machine has to go into overdrive to deal with it: bad PR means fewer new customers. (Or was complaining prohibited by the ToS?)

well they dont call it comcrap for nothing

Okay in attempt to not just have this thread disintegrate into a total rant:

This part concerns me: consent to and authorize Comcast, its agents, suppliers, and affiliates to reproduce, publish, distribute, and display the content worldwide and (iii) warrant that you have the right to provide this authorization. You acknowledge that material posted or transmitted using HSI may be copied, republished or distributed by third parties, and you agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Comcast, its agents, suppliers, and affiliates for any harm resulting from these actions.

I am a graphic designer and I regularly transmit files to clients and commercial printers. Would that give consent to them to just take the magazine I just created (stealing my work and my client's project) and [print it themselves and sell it? The TOS doesn't say what they will do with these items, or whether or not they can profit from it.

They could steal my living from me in this fashion.

I don't have Comcast, so this is just a "what if" for me, but I am sure other people who use the internet for their original work would feel this same concern. What if you were an attorney and transmitted privileged info? A therapist who emailed a report on someone's mental health? Or a doctor who sent patient records to another doctor? All of these are possible and some would result in a lawsuit where Comcast to "publish them and display them worldwide".

There *is* an expectation of privacy (as much as exists on the internet) if you are NOT doing something illegal (child porn, for example). And certainly no one expects to have their information stolen by the ISP!

We need debtors prisons and maybe they can double to include people who generally don't understand contracts they sign and clearly don't understand.

Debtors prison, thats a fairly stupid idea. Accountability starts where the policies to protect were loopholed to take advantage.Those are the ones that should go to jail.
What we need are contracts written for the average consumer to understand and assist in their decision making, not one that takes advantage of it.

Debtors prisons where a poor concept anyway, the lendor looses out as someone in jail cant work and make money to pay it off. they where tried at one point in history, there is reason we do not have them now. they failed.

Gee..I wonder what brought this about...*as I am recalling a few CS experiences and the reading of the Full TOS myself*...Oh yeah, now i see it.