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devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

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devil24

Premium Member

A little taste of reality... VoIP's 911 mishap

I just saw this on the morning news, here in Houston, TX. As a VoIP user and a fireman, I got the chills after seeing the news piece.

And btw, I know that, as a user, you should be aware of the limitations of such a service, but if the provider tells you that it works, well, it should work, period.

Technology trips over 911 call

07:34 AM CST on Friday, February 4, 2005
By Vicente Arenas / KHOU-TV 11 News & KHOU.com


A young girl found out the hard way Thursday that not all phone companies provide a connection to emergency services.

As her mother and father were being shot during a home invasion, she tried to call 911, but couldn't get through.

Joyce John tried to call 911, but the Internet phone service her family uses didn't offer that capability.

This problem could affect thousands of people who use the Internet for their phone service.

Peter John describes how bullets flew through his home as he and his wife tried to fight off two would-be robbers. "And he point the gun toward me like this. The guy put the gun to my chest. I told him that my daughter's up stairs," said John.

Next thing I know, I hear shots in two or three seconds. She was screaming Joyce, Joyce call the police call 911," said his daughter, Joyce.

She dialed 911, and got this message, "Stop you must dial 911 from another telephone. 911 is not available from this telephone line. No emergency personnel will be dispatched."

Her father was already down, shot in the leg and her mother had also been hit. Both were in pools of blood.

"I picked up another phone cause I thought it was the phone's problem. But I picked up another phone and it still didn't work," said Joyce.

The robbers ran, and so did Joyce, to call 911 from a neighbor's house.

The 911 Emergency Network says the Peters subscribe to what is known as a voice over Internet provider, or an Internet phone company.

The emergency network recommends that people find out if their providers offer the service. Many Internet phone companies claim to offer huge savings.

And it's estimated that as many as 100,000 people in the Harris County area have signed up in the last two months.

That's why Harris County's 911 network is starting a campaign asking people to check their Internet phones for 911 service -- before they need it.

The Peters wish the warning had come a little sooner.

If you're not sure if you have 911 service, do not call the operators at the 911 emergency center. It is against the law to call 911 just to test it.

It is best to call your Internet service provider. Time Warner Cable is reportedly the only provider (in the area) that offers a full emergency 911 service.

nickz
In A Past Life I Was Astroguy
Premium Member
join:2001-12-04
Hammond, IN

nickz

Premium Member

It's illegal to test it? That's not what people here have been saying. This story is sad to hear, but again, it's sensationalizing and scare tactics. What if the victims had POTS and the home invaders had cut the telephone cable? I like the last line though. Is the author trying to sell TWC phone service?

CJ30
join:2000-07-18
USA

CJ30 to devil24

Member

to devil24
I can see that as being an all too common problem. We are a society that is mainly driven by cost. With that being said, people are going to sign up for a service because of it's price and let's face it, the price is very luring. I am willing to put a lot of money down and say that a large amount of the people that get VoIP really do not understand how it works and what does and doesn't work on a VoIP connection.

It is sad when you here of stories like this, but on the flip side it was their own fault that it happened. They wanted to save money by getting a phone service that was a fraction of the cost as POTS and didn't research it enough to realize that certain functions or features would be lost.

Maybe there is a silver lining in all of this though. Maybe this will make VoIP providers realize that they need to expedite providing true E911 service. One of two things will happen if this gets enough press. They will either start getting off their asses and start providing true E911 or the federal government will step in and start regulating them like any other POTS provider.

devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24

Premium Member

I don't know what's behind the story. It's from a local channel, so yes, it may sound a little sensationalist, but none the less, it's a subject that could affect us all, one way or the other.

I don't intend to create an argument here, but why do some people always try to create a conspiracy theory about a post like this? I know that your statement about the home invaders cutting the telephone cable is quite feasible, but, how many times do you see it happening for real?, especially when the attack is a bang-bang operation (a real fast and violent one).

About the TWC comment, well, they do have a huge presence here in Houston and many people is signing up for their service, and from what I've read/learn about, it's true (they offer a fully functional service), so I guess he was just stating the facts (even if for some of you guys it sounded as if he was "trying to sell" the service).
devil24

devil24 to nickz

Premium Member

to nickz
Calling to "test" the 911 emergency service may or may not be illegal. I think it varies depending on your location and its laws.

gdm
MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL

gdm to devil24

MVM

to devil24
This is a reason I still have a basic POTS line even though I have cable now and not DSL. Just think if the internet went down as well..there are various scenarios that could happen.

For me I will never get rid of a POTS line. $15 extra a month is nothing compared to some thing like this happening.

Good Ol Dan
join:2000-05-15
Naples, FL

2 edits

Good Ol Dan to devil24

Member

to devil24
said by devil24:


If you're not sure if you have 911 service, do not call the operators at the 911 emergency center. It is against the law to call 911 just to test it.
It may be technically illegal to do a "test call" to conventional POTS-style 9-1-1, but it is highly UN-likely to be proscecuted unless it is malicious or repeated in nature.

In the case of providers like Vonage, who currently route 9-1-1 calls (for those who have signed up for the program) to a 7-digit number at the user's local PSAP (public safety answering point), such a test call would most certainly be legal (and advisable!) since you are not ultimately calling in on the PSAP's "normal" 9-1-1 trunks.

Dan
kaila
join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

kaila to devil24

Member

to devil24
I had read a Vonage PR piece around November about rolling out true E911 at some point this year. Has anyone heard any more about that?
your moderator at work

digiblur
Premium Member
join:2002-06-03
Louisiana

digiblur to devil24

Premium Member

to devil24

Re: A little taste of reality... VoIP's 911 mishap

Here's another situation I see more and more everday. There is no phone line(POTS or VoIP) in the house! They use cell phones.

CJ30
join:2000-07-18
USA

CJ30 to devil24

Member

to devil24
The cutting of phone lines is quite a normal thing among criminals these days. So to say it rarely happens or to even imply that rarely happens is a misconception.

Just a year or so ago there were multiple break-ins sort of close to where I live and the MO of the criminals was to first cut the phone lines to disable alarm systems from calling out. I personally routed my phone lines through conduit from the point at which the line came to the house to the box and from the box to the house. They would have to do a lot of work just to disable my alarm system.

To Anubis. Boy I'm glad your here to keep threads from getting out of hand. Lord knows without you posts would not be worth reading. So I say thank you!
Sinclair42
join:2004-10-23
Florence, SC

1 edit

Sinclair42 to devil24

Member

to devil24
She dialed 911, and got this message, "Stop you must dial 911 from another telephone. 911 is not available from this telephone line. No emergency personnel will be dispatched."
__________________________________________________________
Which provider has this message.I had P8 a while back before the 911 was implemented and when you dialed 911 you got dead silence.
»www.KHOU.com/
dssman
join:2003-10-17

dssman

Member

This story scared me into testing my 911 service with SunRocket. The call went through, but to a neighboring county's 911. I just called SunRocket to inform them and they promised to fix it ASAP.
ieee1394
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Corte Madera, CA

ieee1394 to digiblur

Premium Member

to digiblur
said by digiblur:

Here's another situation I see more and more everday. There is no phone line(POTS or VoIP) in the house! They use cell phones.
It is far more reliable to use your cell phone for 911 then it is to use VOIP even if your VOIP provider claims to have 911 in place for you. I would not recommend anyone have VOIP without at least having POTS or a cell phone as well.

I don't think the story is sensational at all. This is a huge problem and the FCC's desire to stay away from VOIP and the public's desire for less regulation is only going to perpetuate the problem.
lmjh7065
Premium Member
join:2001-04-04
Cincinnati, OH

lmjh7065 to Sinclair42

Premium Member

to Sinclair42
When I had P8 I tried dialing 911 to see what happened and I got a similar recording saying to hangup and dial 911 from another phone, of course if it was an extension phone on the same line this did little good. When dialed from my QV line I get a fast busy.

First we had NO 911 service and you dialed the emergency number in the front of the phone book. Then we get 911 which of course is better and most, including children can remember it. But, no one has ever explained to me how E911 (Enhanced 911) is better than 911. This may be semantics, but I always thought that anything that is enhanced is better than the original. If anything 911 is an enhancement from dialing the 7 digit emergency number. If it isn't 911 then it should not be called 911. Maybe this would eliminate all the confusion about 911, cell 911, VoIP 911 and E911 which I thought was originally intended for cell use.

This news is an unfortunate experience with VoIP, but we all make choices every day and we must accept full responsibility for our actions. Life is not risk free.

vonsen
Just Because
Premium Member
join:2005-01-06

vonsen to ieee1394

Premium Member

to ieee1394
Unbridled sensationalism. Don't blame voip, blame the stupid subscriber. You knew or should have known when you got voip, that 911 is not guaranteed. You should have thought this through in advance and had some sort of backup plan. If you didn't, then you are entitled to 100% ownership for anything bad that happens down the road. If 911 is such an over-riding concern for you, then pay more and stick with your pots line. You have the benefit of the doubt when we assume that you are an intelligent and responsible adult. If you prove otherwise by your lack of advance planning then the gene pool will thank you for removing yourself when things go south.

--
                                                                   six stars shy

devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24

Premium Member

Vonsen, may I ask, how old are you? just curious.

CJ30
join:2000-07-18
USA

CJ30 to devil24

Member

to devil24
The difference between 911 and E911 is a simple one. When you have true E911 service, all you have to do is dial 911 on your phone and that is it. You need not say anything and you phone# and address are displayed at the 911 dispatch center. They know exactly where you are at and will send emergency personnel to that address. With regular 911, or whatever they like to call it, the call is routed to a PSAP which SHOULD, and I stress the word should, go to the same person that is working the E911 call center depending on your location. But it will not display your address and a lot of times it won't even display your phone# from what I have been reading. It most assuredly will not show your address though. Meaning you have to explain to the person you have called where exactly you are and your emergency. So if you are in any way not able to speak, your are screwed.
72276539 (banned)
join:2001-01-19
Atlanta, GA

72276539 (banned) to devil24

Member

to devil24
Well damned, I was hoping my post would head off idiotic rants like vonsens.

devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24

Premium Member

It was bound to happen .

CJ30
join:2000-07-18
USA

CJ30 to devil24

Member

to devil24
I think the responsibility falls in both courts. Although it is ultimately the subscribers responsibility to educate themselves and the drawbacks of VoIP. But I also believe it should be the responsibility of the provider to inform the subscriber of said drawbacks. Too many times I see instances where the provider has not explained any of this to the subscriber and a lot of times the info is buried on their website. Not all people are web savvy and can find all the info they need to be informed.

I'll probably get blasted for this next statement. I think there needs to be some regulations placed upon VoIP so these types of scenarios can be avoided. People kick and scream when someone suggests government intervention but those are the same people that benefit from it also.

An example, although maybe a bad one, is vehicles. The government requires that manufacturers of vehicles notify owners of problems or potential problems that may arise with their vehicle. Where would we be without that?
ghicken
Premium Member
join:2004-12-01
Taneytown, MD

ghicken to vonsen

Premium Member

to vonsen
said by vonsen:

Unbridled sensationalism.
I agree. VoIP providers are working to implement 911 services so what the writer said was likely wrong. The writer wants VoIP customers to be a new group of victims so that the news will have its pool of 'bad news', all in the name of entertain... I mean journalism. I wonder if Time Warner will pay for the ad time.


devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24 to CJ30

Premium Member

to CJ30
My thoughts exactly.
Infoman1
join:2001-03-21
Hubbard, OH

Infoman1 to Sinclair42

Member

to Sinclair42
said by Sinclair42:

She dialed 911, and got this message, "Stop you must dial 911 from another telephone. 911 is not available from this telephone line. No emergency personnel will be dispatched."
__________________________________________________________
Which provider has this message.I had P8 a while back before the 911 was implemented and when you dialed 911 you got dead silence.
»www.KHOU.com/
VONAGE Mine does the same thing.

devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24 to ghicken

Premium Member

to ghicken
Well, call it whatever you want, but the fact is that many VoIP providers have been "working to implement 911 services" for quite some time now (a year or more in the case of several ones)... yet there's no proof that supports any advance in their efforts to "fix" it.

I'm all up for fair play and fair judgements... and I do know the responsibility should fall on both sides, but I also think that in occasions, the providers, as cestepp mentioned, do a very crappy job of educating their user base about the pros and cons of the services they are selling.

WhyADuck
Premium Member
join:2003-03-05

WhyADuck to 72276539

Premium Member

to 72276539
said by 72276539:

Well damned, I was hoping my post would head off idiotic rants like vonsens.
Please! His post was NOT "idiotic." It was just his opinion. And whatever made you think that your post would influence anyone not to post, seeing as how you're not a moderator?

I can see both sides of this issue, but personally I think everyone is blaming everyone except the people who are probably most at fault here, and that is the 911 centers that refuse to budge an inch to accommodate new technology. I suppose if these PSAPs had been around during the days of telegraphy we'd all be required to have a telegraph circuit into our homes and a trained Morse code operator to get emergency services!

Really, all the 911 centers have to do is provide a ten digit number that will always accept emergency calls, and then their national organizations need to provide some easy way for VoIP providers to do an address-based lookup to find the correct number to route calls to. Even in the situation mentioned in this story (and by the way, I never trust a newspaper to get all the details right - they never have, in any story I've had any personal knowledge about), the people didn't need "enhanced" 911, they just needed to get a call through to their 911 dispatch center so they could communicate the details of what was happening. But as long as the 911 centers take the attitude that they only want to see calls come in on special trunks that are really only easily accessible to incumbent local telephone companies, they are driving up costs for everyone and forcing people to use old technology.

I know that some will probably object to me laying blame on the 911 centers but the fact is that it is difficult and expensive for anyone but a baby Bell (or the local incumbent phone company) to route calls over those special, gold-plated trunks (that still get cut by backhoes). In probably better than 99% of all situations just getting a call through to the 911 dispatcher would be good enough, and certainly better than nothing.

rsa0
join:2003-01-25
Birmingham, AL

1 edit

rsa0

Member

It's all about money. They can even take 911 calls from a smoke signal, and locate it within inches, but who's paying for it, because, believe it or not, it comes down to that !
Technology is there....
Trill
join:2003-12-18
Crestview, FL

Trill to devil24

Member

to devil24
Luckily Bellsouth still gives me the option to dial 911 from the POTS line even though all service has been disconnected. I keep one phone hooked up to a POTS phone jack just for an emergency.

devil24
Premium Member
join:2002-06-28
San Antonio, TX

devil24 to WhyADuck

Premium Member

to WhyADuck
You made a very good point here.

Although I think the idea of these PSAPs adding such an access method would be great, there's also the problem of dealing with kids during the event of an emergency. Asking a kid to dial a 10-digit number may be pushing it a little, and that's why I think that this solution, although quite capable of helping a lot, still is a little short-handed.

A mix of all these options would be great... but I doubt we'll see anything like it in the short future.
devil24

devil24 to Trill

Premium Member

to Trill
I know there are companies that offer such an option... but not all do, and that "no list" includes several big telcos.