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to JackyC313
Re: How do I network two computers for verizon dsl?said by JackyC313:
Im am still unclear as to how a router can be so much better than a hub. So far the advantages that I know of are...- No one computer needs to be on to share the connection.
- An extra added firewall feature (but zonealarm installed on each computer seems to do just as well.
The big difference between using a hub and a NAT router is that when you use a hub, each PC is "directly" connected to your ISP. That means the ISP has to provide a unique IP address for each machine. If you only have one machine on at a time this is fine, but if you want to use more then one your ISP must allocate multiple IP addresses. Most residential accounts are limited to a single IP address. Residential broadband routers include a feature called NAT, Network Address Translation. This allows you to create a local network with a large number of computers. The router issues each of these computers a special reserved private IP address (RFC 1918). What is unique is that these IP addresses are NOT used on the Internet. This means they can be reused many times to create local networks. When you need to connect to the Internet the NAT feature of the router converts the local address to the public address that was assigned by your ISP. It is sent to whoever you are trying to connect to. When the reply comes back the router remembers which computer on your network originated the request and restores the address. This is also why playing games behind a NAT router sometines do not work. The game creates a server, Depending on how things are set up the router will not be able to forward incoming requests to the proper computer. quote:
By using a router (a switch) instead of a hub, your bandwidth would remain consistent for all the computers ...
This is not true. Regardless of how you connect all computers on your network have to share a single ISP connection. However, you will likely not notice a reduction in speed because Internet traffic tends to occur in bursts, with lots of idle time between requests. The allows multiple computers to use the same connection will no apparent loss of speed. The exception is uploading or downloading. This tends to be a continous stream, so it will affect performance of the other computers. | | | |
said by tschmidt:
The big difference between using a hub and a NAT router is that when you use a hub, each PC is "directly" connected to your ISP. That means the ISP has to provide a unique IP address for each machine. If you only have one machine on at a time this is fine, but if you want to use more then one your ISP must allocate multiple IP addresses. Most residential accounts are limited to a single IP address.
But this is ONLY if you log on the ISP on each comupter .. no? What Im saying is to log on with one computer and share the connection with ICS. That way, its still only ONE IP which is still within Verizons regulations. said by edhample:
A switch has many advantages over a hub - the greatest of which is that each switch port will guarantee the maximum available bandwidth to the PC connected to that port. In a hubed ethernet environment, each connected PC is sharing a single logical piece of wire, and in reality only one can talk at a time - much like a telco party line. Hubed networks suffer from collisions when more than one device tries to talk at the same time. Switches eliminate the collision problem.
This is also new to me.. I thought with a hub, each client still tried to get the maximum available bandwidth. But I guess since its not a switch, its not as efficient, therefore suffering some loss(how much? I do not know but I have tried downloading large files (100+ MBs) on 2 computers and I didnt notice anything out of the ordinary in the speed drop. Added up it was about the maximum bandwidth). said by tschmidt:
This is also why playing games behind a NAT router sometines do not work. The game creates a server, Depending on how things are set up the router will not be able to forward incoming requests to the proper computer.
Hmm.. in that case, its even a greater reason that if you play multiplayer games that you shouldnt get one. Can routers act as hubs... in that a LAN network can still be set up? are routers just hubs with extra added features? A smarter hub if you will... | | | |
Folks,
Thanks for the update to the TOC, however, when I first got my ADSL service in April of last year, I was told I could not hook up more than one PC to this service. Then, it was Bell Atlantic however, not Verizon. After the merge to Verizon here in NY, things changed rapidly. Now a bit about my config since I see some people still don't understand why it's better to have a router, and all I can say is the hub worked perfectly, as long as I used a machine as a gateway, same a s a hub. Don't be confused but I do not use my "router" as a router, I simply use it as a gateway. Using it as a router would imply I have more than router across more than one subnet.
Also, the WinPoet client is a resource hog, as well as a burden because I do NOT want to have to log in. I want it to be up all the time and having a gateway is the only way to do that. the PPPoverethernet.exe which runs in the background caused me more crashes than any other application, and after analyzing it's usage, I found it to be buggy as hell and very unstable. The 3.0 software had a much better client, but still hogged up a lot of resources.
When I had the hub, I installed the client software on each machine, and every time a machine connected, I was given a new IP address for each machine. This was how I caught, and shortly after disconnected from Bell's service. Under Verizon's TOC, I guess things changed, but was never worreid because by then I bought the router, and all they will ever see my get is that one IP address. I never really reads those damn things anwyay, and I will never suggest a hub to anyone interested in home networking, as the problems which arise from running Win Poet on all your computers outweigh any amount of money you will spend on a router. Win2K does the best job of running WInPoet since it sees it as a true adapter, and some software emulation which is what Win98 does. I hope this helped. | | | System |
to JackyC313
said by JackyC313:
said by tschmidt:
Hmm.. in that case, its even a greater reason that if you play multiplayer games that you shouldnt get one. Can routers act as hubs... in that a LAN network can still be set up? are routers just hubs with extra added features? A smarter hub if you will...
A router and hub are two very different things. But most broadband routers have a built in switch. A switch is very similar to a hub only better. Also with the router/switch combination you won't have to run ICS anymore. Hope this helps. | | ·Consolidated Com..
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to JackyC313
said by JackyC313:
But this is ONLY if you log on the ISP on each comupter .. no? What Im saying is to log on with one computer and share the connection with ICS. That way, its still only ONE IP which is still within Verizons regulations.
True, the other common method of sharing is to connect one PC directly to the Internet and then use connection sharing software, MS ICS, Wingate, etc to share the connection. In effect the sharing software is doing similar task as a NAT router. To summarize, there are three ways to share a Internet connection. #1 Bridge - Requires ISP to issues IP address for each host #2 Software connection sharing - load connection sharing software on computer directly connected to Internet. LAN can have as many computers as needed. @3 Hardware connection sharing, NAT router. Appliance like device that manages LAN and shares single IP address. quote:
This is also new to me.. I thought with a hub, each client still tried to get the maximum available bandwidth. But I guess since its not a switch, its not as efficient, therefore suffering some loss(how much? I do not know but I have tried downloading large files (100+ MBs) on 2 computers and I didnt notice anything out of the ordinary in the speed drop. Added up it was about the maximum bandwidth).
Ethernet 101 In a common hub all ports are effectively connected together, they are on a single collision domain. What this means is that each port sees all the traffic from all the other ports and has to wait for idle before it transmits. A switch isolates each port from all the other ports. When a packet arrives the switch looks at the destination MAC address and connects directly to that port. So for example Port A can be talking to port C and port F talking to port B. Each connection can operate at maximum thruput. So an 8 port switch can maintain 4 simultaneous connection for an effective thruput of 400Mbp/s. But wait there is more! Because ports no longer share a single collision domain they can transmit and receive at the same time. This boosts maximum thruput of our 8 port switch to 800Mbp/s. In reality communication is never this well balanced so actually thruput will be significantly lower. But in the right environment switches can represent a dramatic improvement. However, this only works if there are multiple pairs of conversations. In the case of Internet connection sharing all the computer are using a single port, so thruput will be the same with a hub or switch. quote:
Hmm.. in that case, its even a greater reason that if you play multiplayer games that you shouldnt get one. Can routers act as hubs... in that a LAN network can still be set up? are routers just hubs with extra added features? A smarter hub if you will...
You cannot simply substitute one for the other. The reason you need a NAT router is because you only get one IP address from you ISP. That limits you to a single device unless you use NAT. NAT works for many things but it does have some side effects. | | | |
to Anon
Oooh oooh!! Can we talk about VLANs and Spanning Tree Protocol? Pweeeze. Hehe. Gotta love how much more efficient switches are than hubs. Altho I still haven't successfully gotten a switch to communicate between vlans without the aid of a router. In like, one of the newer cisco IOS versions there's supposed to be a way to do it. | | | |
said by RainWind:
Oooh oooh!! Can we talk about VLANs and Spanning Tree Protocol? Pweeeze. Hehe
NOSeriously, if you want to follow up you ought to post a question in the networking forum. | | | |
okagain to tschmidt
Anon
2001-Aug-30 8:47 pm
to tschmidt
you can setup NAT/ICS to work fine with a router...just used yhe existing software...many places have it and it's free...built-in with MS OS'es(98/wme/w2k/xp)...NAT can be setup with linux as I re-call... | | | System |
to Anon
Anon
2001-Aug-30 9:01 pm
to Anon
You guys are giving me a headache when I read all this. I don't have a lot of time to read this mess. I know ruoter is better than hub. BUT... I'm a poor bastard and can't afford a $100 router. Now I went to compusa and there are cat5 patch cables (male/male). Are these the right ones to connect the hub to the NIC on the computer? Thanks for everyone in replying to this topic. | | | |
okagain
Anon
2001-Aug-30 9:15 pm
just use a regular cat-5 cable to connect your dsl modem to the UPLINK on the hub...then set you NOC yo 10MBS full duplex...it'll work fine...I have that setup and have been there done that...cross over cable is NOT NEEDED!!! set speed to 10MBS on the NIC and it'll all work ok!! | | | |
to tschmidt
Firstly, I would like to thank you for clearing some things up.. of course hehe that also leads me to some more questions... said by tschmidt:
Ethernet 101
In a common hub all ports are effectively connected together, they are on a single collision domain. What this means is that each port sees all the traffic from all the other ports and has to wait for idle before it transmits ....
In that case, if I have 2 downloads in a HUBed system, both claiming (from some software download programs like GetRight) that they're going at lets say around 400Mbp/s, only one in reality occurs? or they alternate back and forth to simulate both downloading at once? Kind of like how multitasking, distributing the use of the CPU, in OS's work? Because like I said I have seen 2 downloads occuring at once within my hub'ed system. said by tschmidt:
You cannot simply substitute one for the other. The reason you need a NAT router is because you only get one IP address from you ISP. That limits you to a single device unless you use NAT. NAT works for many things but it does have some side effects.
Ok, this seems a little confusing again now. So with a router, even if I install the login program on all 3 machines, whenever I log in on any of the machines, I am still on that ONE IP? Is this what people with routers do? For people who dont wanna use ICS software to hog up their resources? (This is sounding like the router is a hardware replacement for the ICS software now as well as the internal LAN DHCP IP assigning). But then again maybe not, because... said by spaceman_spiff:
Also, the WinPoet client is a resource hog, as well as a burden because I do NOT want to have to log in.
Then where does the login occur? Also, since Im seeing that a router is in fact NOT a hub with extra featues... that would mean I would still need a hub connected to the router? The router to do the switching and the hub to do the LAN network. Just a router would not be enough for a network? | | | JackyC313 |
to Anon
hey Regginoy, I guess Im the one to be blamed for all the extra messages since Im trying to find out more about a router and how its better. I guess I should have started a new thread....Anyway... since you have already decided to go with a hub, I guess I can finally provoid some useful information instead of always asking questions  . If you plan on getting a hub w/ an uplink port, then you dont need to worry about anything. All you need is to get all the ethernet cards, and cat5's you need for each computer PLUS one extra one going from the DSL modem to the hub's uplink port. An example: - I have 3 pcs
- 3 ethernet cards (NIC) [one in each computer]
- 3 cat5 cables[one for each computer] + 1 more cat5[link betwn DSL modem and hub] = 4 cat5 cables [actually 5.. one more for unexpected guests
 ]
- and a 5 port hub with another uplink port.
However, if you're getting a hub w/o an uplink port, THEN the setup's the same ONLY you would probably need a cat5 thats "cross" cabled. This will substitute the cat5 that connects from the DSL modem to the uplink port. This can connect to any of the ports on the hub and give it the effect that its the uplink port. Hope that was more informative than it was confusing. @_@ | | ·Consolidated Com..
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to JackyC313
Bandwidth sharing
Internet access occurs in chunks, called packets. If two programs try to use the same connection the first packet gets accepted, then the next, and so on. If two computers are presenting packets at the same rate this TENDS to split the bandwidth between both users approximately in half. But it is statistical not deterministic.
Router vs hub/switch
When you use a router, it is the router that authenticates to the ISP via PPPoE if that is what is being used. The hosts on the LAN have no knowledge of your Internet service provider. All they see is an Internet connection. As a matter of fact for local stuff the LAN works normally even if no Internet connection exists.
Login
Most routers automatically log in and maintain a permanent connection. So to the user PPPoE actually looks like an always on connection. You can even do the same thing with dialup. Before I had DSL I used the router to automatically dial the modem as needed, and to disconnect when the connection was idle for a while. Except for the lengthly connect time, this pretty much hide the fact that the LAN was connected to a dial up modem. | | | |
So is it safe to assume the answers to my questions are...
Yes, bandwidth sharing IS almost like multitasking... it simulates the double download by alternating where as a router would download them both at the same time and would not need to simulate it by alternating therefore making the router more efficient.
Yes, routers can replace hubs to make a LAN. The hub is not necessary.
Yes, routers are also a hardware replacement for the login program, ICS software, and probably DHCP IP assigning.
AND to quote Rain Wind "Oooh oooh!!" hehe this IS FUN ^_^. I knew I should have taken some networking classes ~_~. | | | |
Routers are nothing like hubs, and are completely separate. A Router is exactly what is says, it ROUTES data to and from different class subnets of networks, and probably other routers. I have a flat network in my home meaning I only have one set of machines on a Class "A" network, and no other network to "route" data to and\or from. The specific DSL/Cable (broadband)routers on today's market are suited to our needs by giving us PPPoE logins with Dial on Demand or Keep Alive, RAS logins, all of these features suited for broadband access. Corporate class routers generally do not have these features since they are not required. Broadband has brought the modern day router to our homes and for that I am grateful, as my WAN skills were minimal, while now they are decent but still lacking. However it gives us all the chance to learn our little piece. Hubs and switched are the most similar, while a switch is a very smart hub, and a "managed" hub is a pretty smart hub. A regular crappy hub is still just a regular crappy hub.
When you use a broadband router to replace the WinPoet login, you will need to buy a router which has a PPPoE login, and you will then login with that router, then filtering the info down to the other machines via DHCP, or even better, Static IP addresses. Static is better, and you can use the information gathered from the router, and add static entries for your machines for DNS servers, and if you have a need, WINS.
I have a Windows NT domain at home, and all the machines have static IP addresses, and DNS and WINS are also set static. This way, I never have to maintain the DHCP server which comes with the broadband router because the more machines you have the crappier the DHCP server is. Every once in a while, Verizon renews all it's IP leases and sends you a new IP address, as they are under the assumption that you will be often disconnecting and reconnecting. With a broadband router set to "Keep Alive" it will not be the case, as it will always appear connected. Once Verizon does send it's renewal, the router is smart enough to get the new IP, and reconnect to the service. If you have logging enabled on your router, you will see this happen. anyway before this post grows anymore in size, i'll stop now. Enjoy! | | ·Consolidated Com..
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to JackyC313
said by JackyC313:
So is it safe to assume the answers to my questions are...
Yes, routers can replace hubs to make a LAN. The hub is not necessary.
No, a hub or Ethernet switch is needed to create a LAN, except in the special case where only two PCs are connected together. The purpose of the router it to route packets that are addressed to hosts that are not located on the LAN. So a typical setup has a DSL modem >> router >> hub/switch. Many home routers include a built in 4 or 8 port Ethernet switch. That way you get everything you need in one box. But it does not change the differences between a hub and a router. Hubs work at ISO layer 2 Ethernet (works with MAC addresses) they know nothing about TCP/IP. Routers work at layer 3 IP (based on IP addresses). | | | |
to Anon
If you don't get multiple IPs from verizon, a router is the only way to go *or have a server machine with multiple NICs*. Router = Layer 3 routing. Its routes packets by looking at the IP and subnet addresses. It adds the most latency *Its not even noticeable*. A Switch is probably the best way to go if you get multiple IPs. A good full duplex switch will dedicated a full 200 mbits *thats 100 for up, and 100 for down* for each port. Its much better if you plan on sending files, playing games, or doing anything LAN related. Switches also reduce collisions. If you want, you can set a switch *if it supports vlans* to allow only certain user access to the DSL. *kinda like a group. Group members can see only each other, and no one else. Useful for security, or if you don't want some of your computers to use the DSL connection* A hub is the cheapest and simplest way. Just plug everything in, and yer ready to go. But with multiple PCs all surfing at the same time you're more likely to have collisions. But no matter what device you are using your DSLs bandwidth is still shared between whoever is surfing. Oh, BTW, most DSL routers have a built in firewall that you can customize *somewhat*. You can use it to block certain ports, and I believe certain protocols. If you plan on purchasing a REAL router you can use access lists to block just about anything, but they're a bit pricy, and NOT what you'd want for your little home network. I'd just suggest a switch for what you're planning, mostly because you can get one for a fair price now, and they are just better than hubs in the long run. | | |
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