Verizon FiOS → Re: Is HD recorded output from DVR 5C encrypted?

It was the Olympics. I tested it live, and it worked fine. Then I recorded the rest of the show on the DVR. When I went back to transfer it, it acted like it does when it's 5C encrypted - no info in CAPDVHS and unplayable file. I've performed other tests since then with other OTA channels/shows with the same result (live is fine, recordings are not).

Now I'll have to try it again to see if is local to you, or nationwide.

Did you try it yet?

:D I was going to post the same question this morning. Would like to see if I should go out and bother getting a firewire cable or not.

No, not yet. But I got the day off, so I'll give it a shot later today. Also want to see if by some miracle the Mits TV strips off the encryption if I play from DVR->Mitsubishi TV->Computer.

(Not likely, but I can hope.)

Good luck!! The straight from DVR > Computer is the one I'm mostly interested in, but hope you find something that works for ya. If you do get it to work from DVR to computer, could you list what software your using, and maybe a few steps on what you did? Thanks.

Ok, I've done some more tests and here are the results:

I CAN transfer recorded non-5c shows off of the DVR, but it seems that I have to be on a non-5c channel then enter into the Recorded Shows List and hit play and then hit record in CAPDVHS.

Also, I noticed that ABC and CBS seem to be 5c encrypted even though the status menu says their 5c status is 0. Anyone else have this problem?

That suggests that it is taking the flag that says whether the material should be encrypted or not from the incoming signal rather than the recorded data. I wonder if this means that recorded protected material could be captured unprotected if the box is tuned to a non-protected channel first. May be worth trying.

I tried transferring a 5c program off of the DVR and only a few minutes worked. I had to first go to a non-5c channel and record a little bit of that. Then I stopped the recording, went to the recorded programs list and played the 5c recording then started recording with CAPDVHS. Only a few minutes worked, then it just went blank. So I guess that doesn't work.

Interesting thing is that I could do that for a few minutes with 5c shows, but NOT at all with ABC or CBS. Anyone know what is up with that?

That's great news, although odd on the ABC/CBS thing. Did you by any chance try something like SciFi channel, USA or MTV? Just random stuff.

Aha.... I tried it and scratched my head and said "I KNOW this worked before!" Rather than admit defeat, I put it off. Sorry.

I had done the same. I was playing from the DVR while on a flagged channel. Good find.

Do we know what Verizon tech support has to say on this issue? I am not optimistic that they would offer anything productive in the way of advice, based on other issues I have brought to their attention. I know. I can give it a try and find out. Just thought I would inquire here first before I went down that path.

I have two DVRs that are each connected by FireWire to a JVC D-VHS VCR. I have had my service for about six weeks now. Dumping from the recorded list to either deck has been a real mixed bag. I have had everything from out-of-sync audio and video to a blank screen. Then when the connection is actually working, I have been plagued with intermittent screen freezes on playback on the VCR. I transferred the movie Bubble on HDNet Movies from the recorded list to D-VHS and there were about four or five separate places where I had that problem. I would guess it affected 2 percent of the content. Not good enough for me. Is it too much to expect a pristine recording? The same thing happened on Super Bowl XL, dumped from the recorded list to the VCR. Playback is fine until I get to the National Anthem and, lo and behold, there are four or five screen freezes/glitches during that performance. Same thing on the Grammys. Maybe I should try something off PBS or NBC and see if I have a problem. I have only tried going from a live show straight to the deck once and have not had a chance to review the tape in depth. That was a portion of a movie off Starz HD. A cursory viewing didn't appear to exhibit any glitches.

All of that to say that there is some type of problem when going from the recorded list to D-VHS, on both protected and unprotected content. At least with my setup.

Funny you should mention DVR to DVHS. I noticed similar issues going from DVR and VOD over firewire to a Mits firewire TV. Freezes, pauses, audio problems.

I don't think they are generating a clean transport stream from DVR/VOD!

Update: I just had a chance to check out the live recording I did via FireWire from the 6416 to my D-VHS VCR. It was approximately 40 minutes. Not a single glitch or freeze. It appears to me that recording live programming off the 6416 works fine. It's capturing stored material that is the problem.

So, Woof Woof, would it be productive to report this issue to Verizon tech support?

Now that you have tested it with a real DVHS deck, then yes, I think it is worth reporting. Now that we have proven that there are issues with DVR/VOD firewire to TV, DVR/VOD firewire to DVHS, and to computer then that sounds like a solid argument to blame it on the box.

I'll call and gripe about the DVR and VOD to TV. I don't plan on mentioning the computer connectivity issues. I'm betting that will get fixed if they fix the TV/DVHS issues. If I try and explain that I'm using "Virtual DVHS" to cap shows off the DVR, I don't think my call will even get entered into ths system.

I had a quick read of the 5C spec and couldn't see anything that would explain the issues that are being seen. For example, there is no process that occurs every few minutes that would explain why things work for a few minutes and then fail. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that there is a bug in the boxes 5C handling. Now, what if this bug has wider spread consequences, for example incorrectly applying a 'never record' flag to some programs, preventing them from being recorded. This would explain the biggest issue that everyone has of missing recordings.

I don't think we have enough data to point the finger at a particular issue. 5C encryption typically changes keys every 30 to 120 seconds.

"Periodically, the source device shall change content keys to maintain robust content protection. To change keys, the source device starts encrypting with the new key computed above and indicates this change by switching the state of the Odd/Even bit in the IEEE 1394 packet header. The minimum period for change of the content key is defined as 30 seconds. The maximum period is defined as 120 seconds."

This is from: »www.dtcp.com/data/wp_spec.pdf

Still, I think it is more likely a malformed transport stream. I've generated plenty of screwed up streams while learning how to create my own HD transport streams to feed my TV (From WMV HD streams and whatnot) so I know how picky TVs (and apparently DVHS decks) can be. Many of them exhibited the same issues. Pauses, blackouts, audio dropouts, etc.

The biggest issue I ran into was with audio. TVs and DVHS decks expect the audio to be encoded in the stream a fair bit ahead of the video frame that it will be presented with. So, even though the stream may play fine with VLC (which doesn't care if the audio leads the video) it will gurf on a TV or DVHS deck.

So when creating DVHS compliant streams, I have to run them through TStoATSC3 to fix the audio lag (and pad the stream to 19Mbit), and then the TV likes it just fine. (The PC version is readily available, I've compiled an OSX version for those interested.)

To prove that theory, one of us would need to capture an unencrypted show from DVR to computer, "fix" it, and then play it out to TV/DVHS to see if that is the issue.

LOL

Check out this thread over at AVS on the FireWire/5C subject: »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/ ··· t7234594

As I said in that thread, I'm having trouble capturing 5C and non-5C content alike off the hard drive of the 6416. I did speak with a tech at Verizon today (Hampton Roads VA FSC) who promised to keep me updated on this issue. It was a pretty in-depth discussion and I feel like she understood what I related. I will keep you posted. Actually I think it's important to report any issues we're having with our service since it is still relatively new.