Adelphia HSI → newest excuse, too many devices on same IRQ as NIC

Not sure how true it is, but the latest excuse I got for poor levels of packet loss was that I have too many items using the same IRQ as my NIC. I have a modem, USB, graphics card, and NIC all using IRQ 11 under Windows 2000. Can this really cause an issue or is the engineer blowing smoke you know where?

I fixed the IRQ thing and still got packet loss:

»/quali ··· l/578112

it could actually cause conflicts, also did you computer crash alot in the past? I had my nic and video card sharing the same irq and it would crash all the time playing games and someone told me that was prolly the problem so i have them on their own irq and i havent crashed/froze as of yet. He basically said the sound card, video card and nic/modem should be on their own irq, you guys agree?

it is probably that usb connection signal level on the modem problem with the line. really the only things that can cause packet loss on your ip address.

My system never crashes. And, of course after a few reboots, all of the items are back on IRQ 11. I even uninstalled the WinModem, USB port, and the NIC, and I got the NIC onto another IRQ. Once I rebooted, though, it reassigned itself again. Grr!

said by sumo:

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Not sure how true it is, but the latest excuse I got for poor levels of packet loss was that I have too many items using the same IRQ as my NIC. I have a modem, USB, graphics card, and NIC all using IRQ 11 under Windows 2000. Can this really cause an issue or is the engineer blowing smoke you know where?

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They tried the same excuse on me. Windows 2000 parks everything it can on an IRQ by design. It's called ACPI. Unless you have a device that is not ACPI compliant, sharing the interrupts is not a problem. In an ACPI compliant system with Windows 2000, the interrupts are meaningless.

Unfortunately, you'll never get anywhere with tech support. I actually had a tech tell me that my USB root hub sharing an IRQ with my sound card was causing my slow speeds and packetloss that starts 4 hops downstream (the NIC was all by itself on irq 3). Then he went on to say that the NIC wouldn't work on IRQ 3.

If you really want to stop IRQ sharing you'll have to disable ACPI. But I'd advise against it. You're almost certain to cause system instability unless you wipe the windows install clean and start over. Also, there are only 15 interrupts in a machine. 1 and 2 are off limits. 3 and 4 are normally used for com ports. 5 probably has a sound card sitting on it. 6 will probably be the floppy controller, 7 is the parallel port, 8 will be the system clock. 12, 13, 14, and 15 are also off limits (ps2 port, IDE controllers etc use these). So that leaves 9, 10, and 11. Guess what, your video card uses one of those, to now you have 2 free. Oh wait a minute, you have USB, that's another IRQ, now you have one. Do you have an internal modem? If so you're now out of interrupts. In a modern system you HAVE to share IRQ's. It's impossible not to.

I don't know if it's lack of training, or if it's company policy to try and BS the customer to shift blame, but either way they have some serious issues in the support department.

Should I get a newer NIC than what I have? I Have a 3Com 3C900-TPO 10Mb and I've been looking at a rather cheap Linksys 10/100 (like $18). The other items that keeps coming up on the same IRQ are relatively new hardware (i.e. my graphics card, NVIDIA GeForce DDR).

This really sucks and my ping time is GREAT! GRRRR!

No, I wouldn't get a new NIC. Regardless of what's being said here, sharing interrupts in a windows 2000 system is not a problem. There's a lot of misinformation floating around about IRQ sharing. I'm not saying that you will never have problems sharing IRQ's, but sharing IRQ's if all of your hardware complies with the ACPI spec is definately NOT a problem.

There are several things that can cause packetloss on the last hop of a reverse trace such as the ones in the line quality test. Can you post a traceroute to yahoo?

said by cbyrd:

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There are several things that can cause packetloss on the last hop of a reverse trace such as the ones in the line quality test. Can you post a traceroute to yahoo?

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I won't be able to do this until maybe Saturday. Won't be home until then.

I checked my work machine, which is also running Win2000, and there are 4 of the same types of hardware on the same IRQ; a NIC, a graphics card, USB, and a sound card. Adelphia blowing smoke again.

Like I said, sharing IRQ's is not a problem, especially in Windows 2000. It's standard practice for them to shift blame to customer equipment, at least that's the conclusion I've come to.

First...sharing irq's will not cause the problems you are having.

Second...do you really think you are going to get tech support from 1st line customer service reps? The Adelphia people are probably earning ..what?...$25,000 a year. C'mon, for that you are getting a phone jockey with minimal training. Any computer tech worth his weight is earning at least $35,000 - $50,000 and isn't first line customer support. Besides, most questions 1st line Adelphia support get are total newbies unable to configure their machines so they are EXACTLY what most people calling the 1-800 Adelphia tech support lines need.

Finally, Pinpoint your problem using..say...Ping Plotter. Find where the packets are being lost. If its between your computer and your first hop then it is either...bad hardware connection (don't share your tv/computer connect with splitters either), bad cable lines, a bad line amplifier or junction. All of that stuff can be checked by a line engineer. NOT an installer but a special line engineer similar to a phone company guy.

Bad packet loss between your computer and first hop could also be at the local office node/router. That will require your local network admin to check into this and they are tough to get hold to but be persistent. It could be hardware or software related.

If packet loss occurs after your first hop and somewhere in the main adelphia network it is the guys at the 1-800 lines problem and you need to talk to a tech higher up the food chain than the customer support.

I have found that the Adelphia support portal that you can access on line actually provides a faster response time and you tend to get more technically proficient people than on the phone. But that has just been my experience.

Bottom line is YOU must pinpoint the location of the packet loss with you own wits and then bug the H3LL out of the correct people, whoever that is.

I'm 1 for 5 online, 1 for 3 with corporate phone techs, and ZERO for 5, with the local techs. And, every time I called the local office for tech support, they fed me to corporate where I wait an hour and sometimes even get hung up on. Really frustrating. And when I have proof, they state that they don't support the software that you are using to find the problems. It's a total joke.

said by shudson:

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I have found that the Adelphia support portal that you can access on line actually provides a faster response time and you tend to get more technically proficient people than on the phone. But that has just been my experience.

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I agree, most first level support people dont know their ash from a hole in the wall. "been there done that" most techys started at the bottom......and this is normal for win2000 to share irqs on acpi compliant machine.

They tried the same excuse on me. Windows 2000 parks everything it can on an IRQ by design. It's called ACPI. Unless you have a device that is not ACPI compliant, sharing the interrupts is not a problem. In an ACPI compliant system with Windows 2000, the interrupts are meaningless.

Unfortunately, you'll never get anywhere with tech support. I actually had a tech tell me that my USB root hub sharing an IRQ with my sound card was causing my slow speeds and packetloss that starts 4 hops downstream (the NIC was all by itself on irq 3). Then he went on to say that the NIC wouldn't work on IRQ 3.

If you really want to stop IRQ sharing you'll have to disable ACPI. But I'd advise against it. You're almost certain to cause system instability unless you wipe the windows install clean and start over. Also, there are only 15 interrupts in a machine. 1 and 2 are off limits. 3 and 4 are normally used for com ports. 5 probably has a sound card sitting on it. 6 will probably be the floppy controller, 7 is the parallel port, 8 will be the system clock. 12, 13, 14, and 15 are also off limits (ps2 port, IDE controllers etc use these). So that leaves 9, 10, and 11. Guess what, your video card uses one of those, to now you have 2 free. Oh wait a minute, you have USB, that's another IRQ, now you have one. Do you have an internal modem? If so you're now out of interrupts. In a modern system you HAVE to share IRQ's. It's impossible not to.

I don't know if it's lack of training, or if it's company policy to try and BS the customer to shift blame, but either way they have some serious issues in the support department. [/QUOTE]

I will go out on a limb here and Put my head on a block.
My IRQ's are _way_ different then yours. My Nic is on 15 and My raid controller is on 11. Video is on 9 and sound on 7. Half a dozen. 6 of another.. so long as nothing is conflicting thru Memory regions.. it's all good.

I work in Adelphias call center and won't hide behind anything. If someone is polite in these forums and not a flaming/arrogant person, I will gladly answer any questions that I feel won't cause reprehensible actions from those I work with. Let it be known that anything _I_ post here in no way reflects Adelphia, its policies or its credentials. These are solely _my_ opinions based on what _I_ make rational of. ( Call this a legal briefing from me ~ )

To start with.

1.) Its _not_ in the companies policy to BS anyone. Junk Bondsmen tried that in the 80's on wallstreet and are all now behind bars. I would have to think Mr. Rigas has a great disliking for those individuals and certinally wouldn't build a company on those examples.

2.) In _most_ OEM machines , IRQ sharing is _not_ a grand idea. Their built with the cheapest hardware to pass 'savings' down to the consumers. After speaking to many folks with HP Pavillions, Compaq's and Sony Vaio's... I must say.. "Ya got what ya paid for!".. Not that their that _bad_ of a product, personally I feel there is a lot that comes with such a low pricetag. Some newer machines have the onboard nic using IRQ 16 with XP. Do _you_ think this will _really_ work? A software redirection thru a local bus? _I_ don't. Pisses off a lot of people when ya tell them ya can't setup their connection with those given parameters.

3.) Seriouse issues in the support department? No. Theres seriouse issues in other areas of the company which I _refuse_ to comment on in fear of retribution. I will state that _nobody_ that you speak with on the phones has _any_ control over the mail servers, news groups or signal quality on your lines. We can delete accounts/aliases on the mail exchangers and servers, but as for their stability or when something will be fixed.. We're seldomly handed an ETA. Line conditions are handled by local 'Franchises'. We can hop on a UBR , check QoS but most of what we deal with is beetween the modem and end user.

There are Many folks who I work with in the call center that have great certifications. In my cubical area, there are 3 certified CCNA's, an MCP , and an MCSE ( within spitball range ~ ) and folks who have many years in the I.T. Field. Problem is the Job market in our area is very poor so ya either answer a phone, or collect little to nothing on unemployment. Answering the phone is _not_ a bad job. Without us, folks wouldn't have anyone to complaine to
and _nothing_ would ever get fixed.

If someone wishes to blame Tech support for Adelphias problems.. So be it. I would _love_ to see that same individual last a week in a call center enviornment speaking to many individuals who used AOL for many years and don't even know what IE or Outlook are.. and have to babysit them thru setting everything up.. can get nerving.

Many of us read DSLReports. I have seen posts from my co-workers on here as well. When we see folks Complaining and blaming us for things that are out of our reech.. It does add 'humor' to the job.

This is submitted in a sincere and honest fashion.
Jackson.

said by Jackson:

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I will go out on a limb here and Put my head on a block.
My IRQ's are _way_ different then yours. My Nic is on 15 and My raid controller is on 11. Video is on 9 and sound on 7. Half a dozen. 6 of another.. so long as nothing is conflicting thru Memory regions.. it's all good.

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You are the first person at Adelphia I've seen actually admit that. That is 100% correct. As long as there are no resource conflicts, sharing IRQ's is not a problem. So why oh why are we forced to force IRQ's or play musical PCI slots if you system will not let your force an IRQ, when the source of the trouble clearly lies upstream? I'll tell you why. Because it's company policy to make every attempt to shift blame to the users equipment in the hope that they will give up. They call it "ruling out customer problems", I call it a needless, useless waste of time. Customer problems are going to show up much closer, and that's what my original comment was directed at. Either they don't train tech support well enough, or they are doing EXACTLY what they are told to do, which is even worse IMO.

said by cbyrd:

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As long as there are no resource conflicts, sharing IRQ's is not a problem.

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That is just not true, cbyrd. Having a NIC sharing an IRQ with another device can - and has - caused problems for some people. It doesn't for everyone, but that's the case with almost any component in a PC. Here's a little info on it. Any tech support center will want to rule out all possibilities at the customer's end before having to dispatch a tech.

That's more a symptom of crappy hardware than anything else, which I mentioned above, but I'll repeat it here:

It's called ACPI. Unless you have a device that is not ACPI compliant, sharing the interrupts is not a problem. In an ACPI compliant system with Windows 2000, the interrupts are meaningless.

Which is true. Win2k and up virtualize the hardware, and can "present" it to the rest of the os with any interrupt value it pleases.

If you have hardware that does not fully comply with PCI and or ACPI specs, yes, sharing IRQ's "can" be a problem, but will not cause trouble that only manifests itself several hops downstream. The trouble would start much closer to the user equipment.

If you want to be nitpicky, any piece of hardware in the machine has the potential to cause conflicts with any other piece of hardware. That's where troubleshooting, not blindly reading off of a list of steps, comes into play.

After reading some of my posts in this thread, I realized that some of my comments may have been taken out of context. While I stand by my statement that sharing IRQ's is generally not a problem, I admit that it can be if some of your hardware does not behave as it should. However, what I had meant to say was that sharing IRQ's is usually fine (especially with an ACPI compliant system), and will not cause problems that manifest themselves 3 or 4 hops downstream.

The problem I have with tech support is their "rule book" for lack of a better term, has the technician take steps that obviously will not fix the problem in many cases. If I'm having general connectivity trouble, packetloss to the first hop, system instability, then yes moving the nic "may" fix it. It will not fix problems that show up 3 hops downstream.

Another issue I have is when tech support tells you to install older versions of TCP/IP. I'm sure they are doing it to help rule out problems with the IP stack, but do they realize that the IP stack that ships on your Windows 9x cd has serious secruity problems? Top that off with the fact that Windows update will not recognize the fact that you have installed this older version, and thinks you're all patched up. Only the most technical audience would be able to re-install the newer update. Not that it's not difficult, but how many people know anything about getting patches from anywhere other than Windows Update? Most don't. If this ever happens to you, you can manually download all of the updates for Windows 98 here »www.microsoft.com/window ··· rate.asp
[text was edited by author 2001-11-18 14:08:14]

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[text was edited by author 2001-11-18 20:04:12]

If Mr. Rigas is such a pious, honest, concerned, person…. Why is he remaining oblivious to the real world lack luster performance of quality product his company is marketing? No ethics, other than his and his son’s wealth, arrogance, stupidity, or just what would motivate that so called businessman?

said by cbyrd:

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That's more a symptom of crappy hardware than anything else, which I mentioned above, but I'll repeat it here:

It's called ACPI. Unless you have a device that is not ACPI compliant, sharing the interrupts is not a problem. In an ACPI compliant system with Windows 2000, the interrupts are meaningless.

Which is true. Win2k and up virtualize the hardware, and can "present" it to the rest of the os with any interrupt value it pleases.

If you have hardware that does not fully comply with PCI and or ACPI specs, yes, sharing IRQ's "can" be a problem, but will not cause trouble that only manifests itself several hops downstream. The trouble would start much closer to the user equipment.

If you want to be nitpicky, any piece of hardware in the machine has the potential to cause conflicts with any other piece of hardware. That's where troubleshooting, not blindly reading off of a list of steps, comes into play.

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I hate to burst your bubble my friend, But I read off nothing . I use _no_ charts, sometimes a few apps to acess an LDAP server.. a _lot_ of telnet seccions...

You seem rather bent on your own demise of Companies having this policy of "Blame the customers hardware first.. then lie".

I'm sorry if this offends you, but you have a great acronymn of 'acpi' and its meaning.. but have you ever scoped a system buss and seen hardware interaction? The clocking? I'm going to make a rather wierd assumption on the part of myself that you understand your systems bus spends roughly 4% of its thread time correcting bus address conflicts for the 'acpi' and redirected IRQ calls.

In a more perfect world, we all would have everything on a sepperate Irq with Jumperd cards locking them in place ( I have peaceful dreams of the good ole dos days where ya needed a brain to put a machine together ). Unfortunatly with Plug-N-Pray, this is far from the truth.

I think tya hit the nail on the head with your statement of "Thats more of a crappy hardware... ". I would hazzard a guess that 95% of all the folks I have spoken with over the last 3 years Purchase OEM machines. HP Pavillions, Sony Vaios, Compaqs.. Gateways.. Most of which use All-in-one motherboards...

Your one of the few that ( probably ) was selective in building/purchasing/assembling _quality_ parts .. and thats extreemly rare this day and age.

said by cbyrd:

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The problem I have with tech support is their "rule book" for lack of a better term, has the technician take steps that obviously will not fix the problem in many cases. If I'm having general connectivity trouble, packetloss to the first hop, system instability, then yes moving the nic "may" fix it. It will not fix problems that show up 3 hops downstream.

Another issue I have is when tech support tells you to install older versions of TCP/IP. I'm sure they are doing it to help rule out problems with the IP stack, but do they realize that the IP stack that ships on your Windows 9x cd has serious secruity problems? Top that off with the fact that Windows update will not recognize the fact that you have installed this older version, and thinks you're all patched up. Only the most technical audience would be able to re-install the newer update. Not that it's not difficult, but how many people know anything about getting patches from anywhere other than Windows Update? Most don't. If this ever happens to you, you can manually download all of the updates for Windows 98 here »www.microsoft.com/window ··· rate.asp
[text was edited by author 2001-11-18 14:08:14]

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What is this "rule book" ( for lack of better term ) you keep mentioning? May I have a copy?

Fixin a problem 3 hops away. Hmm.... Ever done any packet analysis? checked out how frames may be interpited by your nic? What about Packet Headders/trailers.. could they have _anything_ to do with a "hop" problem? Ever played with a TDM? VDM? If your nic is sharing an IRQ with another device and a call is made while packet interpitation is occuring.. _I_ believe that might be a bad thing. Wouldn't you?

As for installing an "older version " of tcp/ip. If you have a better method of helping say.. A 70 year possessing Woman from ( example here ) Palm Beach County, Florida, whom was just handed a computer from her grand daughter and doesnt even know if her modem is connected with a Nic or USB...

I believe you misrepresented yourself above when you stated "has the tech take steps that obviously dont fix the problem in many cases "..

How many people do you speak with in a day? I average about 30-40 . In _most_ cases, clearing an arp table or re-installing tcp/ip solves their problem.

I speak straight from the heart in saying this. If you can present a more efficient method of correcting tcp/ip related problems , Present me with a way bro. I'll gladly try it and pass it along to my co-workers. We would honestly appreciate it.

Sincerly
Jackson.

said by Fran:

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If Mr. Rigas is such a pious, honest, concerned, person…. Why is he remaining oblivious to the real world lack luster performance of quality product his company is marketing? No ethics, other than his and his son’s wealth, arrogance, stupidity, or just what would motivate that so called businessman?

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I have no comment on this. I feel it would be extreemly inappropriate .

Sincerly
Jackson

The rule book I keep mentioning is the one that the techs keep mentioning. If a tech tells me "I know this isn't going to solve the problem, and you've probably done it before anyway, but I still have to do it", then it must be written down somewhere.

I don't have an issue with trying to move the NIC or re-installing TCP/IP. I do have an issue with doing it repeatedly when the evidence points to problems on the network. When others in this forum tell me that they have complained about trouble at the same point that I'm experiencing it, and support says there is no known problem, what would you think?

_I_ would hazard a guess to say I would feel the same as you. Making sure you have done everything you can to eliminate any possible issue ( Fault isolation ) is the best trouble shooting method ,

Back to the problem at hand...sumo, have you thought about connecting another PC to your home network, and have these PCs PING each other? Use the -T option on PING to make the pings continuous. Let it run for an hour! If you truly have problems, you might not need that long.

The idea is to continually exercise your NIC. Since PING requires proof of delivery of an ICMP message (or will complain if it doesn't happen), you will know if your NIC can reliably transmit and receive. If it CAN, then IRQs are not your problem - you've proved that the interrupt is signaling the OS when the NIC hardware has something new to report.

We did hijack the thread didn't we

But back to the point, that's why I asked sumo to post some normal traces. The LQ test here is pretty good at diagnosing problems further down the line, but really cannot be used to troubleshoot problems from the 1st hop back to the user's machine. It could very well be problems at his end, but it's impossible to tell from just a LQ test.

said by Jackson:

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How many people do you speak with in a day? I average about 30-40 . In _most_ cases, clearing an arp table or re-installing tcp/ip solves their problem.

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Wow. After reading this thread, I never thought I'd be supporting this statement. BUT! As I recall my years supporting Win95/98 (Not nt/2k) PCs, the amount of times that removing and reinstalling TCP/IP has fixed a network problems is shamefully high. I know this because *I* was the one who had to do the re-installation. I was a corp. PC fixer. It wasn't like ISP help desk work.

With that in mind, I DO understand that the prompts that appear on the tier1 tech's screen don't apply to everyone. It's just that, STATISTICALLY, those questions have the highest probability of fixing what's wrong.

Most folks who post here will attest that those pre-written questions are a HUGE waste of time, because most of us here know all those things.

It's just one of the burdens of being bright in a stupid world. very few people will EVER understand you.

None expected sir. The public reputation of his so called company tells it all.